Newcastle 1-0 Saints - Match Thread

[Dusic]

With just over a couple of weeks left it seems to me that probably 9 players are nailed to start:

McCarthy, Sugawara, Bednarek, THB, Downes, Smallbone, Aribo, Arma, BBD

The only real decisions IMO would be whether is 3 or 4 at the back and therefore which two from Stephens, Manning, Taylor and Edozie get the nod to start.

Hard to see anyone signed now being ready to start the first game but you never know.

As it stands, attacking sub options will be woefully inadequate and likely worse than for many games last season.

[SaintsFan86]

Presently we aren't good enough up front to play 4 at back, 

Macca;

THB - Bednarek - Stephens;

Sugawara - Smallbone - Downes - Aribo - Taylor;

Arma - BBD.

This is our best 11 of players that qe have to play, I'm not counting Kyle at this point he looks certain to leave.

[Lighthouse]

I genuinely think this could be embarrassing. We have a worse squad than the one which finished fourth in the Championship last year and Newcastle are a decent side.

[CSA96]

I would expect to see Martin using the 3-4-3 here with an attempt at trying to be more defensively sound with Armstrong and BBD as a duo up front. I'm with Lighthouse, I was thinking yesterday that I wouldn't be surprised to see us shit ourselves a bit if Newcastle get an early goal and the St James' crowd gets lively

Edited 1 August, 2024 by CSA96

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

I genuinely think this could be embarrassing. We have a worse squad than the one which finished fourth in the Championship last year and Newcastle are a decent side.

concur

[gio1saints]

15 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

concur

I keep dreaming it’s gonna be 5-0 or 5-1. And it won’t surprise anyone. That’s the bad part.,

[trousers]

25 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

I keep dreaming it’s gonna be 5-0 or 5-1. And it won’t surprise anyone. That’s the bad part.,

What's happened to the uber-positive version of gio1saints from last season...?

Edited 1 August, 2024 by trousers

[gammon cheeks]

Massive step up in the quality we will be facing ..... need a few decent signings before then or it could be a first game whipping !

[trousers]

Anyone know what the biggest losing margin is in the opening games of a top flight season? If we're going to get trounced then we might as well do it in style...  😂

Edited 1 August, 2024 by trousers

[stknowle]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I genuinely think this could be embarrassing. We have a worse squad than the one which finished fourth in the Championship last year and Newcastle are a decent side.

Agree and generally I see no reason to feel more optimistic than a Luton or Sheff U fan would’ve felt at this point last year. As things stand we will be well out of our depth in this Division. End of.

[St Chalet]

Last time we went back to the Prem we were up against Man City Away and put in a very solid performance despite going down 3-2.

We'll be pumped up first game back with a smattering of the unknown.

That said I can't remember us getting anything at SJP since Koeman and the yellow kit.

[Disco Stu]

7 minutes ago, St Chalet said:

That said I can't remember us getting anything at SJP since Koeman and the yellow kit.

Well, we'll have half of those things this time.

[Lighthouse]

5 minutes ago, St Chalet said:

Last time we went back to the Prem we were up against Man City Away and put in a very solid performance despite going down 3-2.

We'll be pumped up first game back with a smattering of the unknown.

That said I can't remember us getting anything at SJP since Koeman and the yellow kit.

That was the best team in the Championship and we’d added Clyne, Davis and Jay Rod by the time we went to the Etihad. We’re well below that level now.

[SaintsFan86]

We never ever win thr first game anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

[Appy]

9 minutes ago, SaintsFan86 said:

We never ever win thr first game anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

We did last year 

[AlexLaw76]

36 minutes ago, SaintsFan86 said:

We never ever win thr first game anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Did you miss last season?

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

4 hours ago, Dusic said:

With just over a couple of weeks left it seems to me that probably 9 players are nailed to start:

McCarthy, Sugawara, Bednarek, THB, Downes, Smallbone, Aribo, Arma, BBD

The only real decisions IMO would be whether is 3 or 4 at the back and therefore which two from Stephens, Manning, Taylor and Edozie get the nod to start.

Hard to see anyone signed now being ready to start the first game but you never know.

As it stands, attacking sub options will be woefully inadequate and likely worse than for many games last season.

No KWP? Appreciate there are rumours but he surprised some last year by not moving on and he could do the same again this year.

Guessing/hope RM will go three at the back.

[West end Saints]

I liked our balance when we had KWP on the left and Livramento on right, not impossible to see similar with Sugawara

[ally_uk]

Jesus we desperately need some signings..... 

[LGTL]

18 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I genuinely think this could be embarrassing. We have a worse squad than the one which finished fourth in the Championship last year and Newcastle are a decent side.

Incredible really isn’t it. We need to pull our finger out. 

[OttawaSaint]

Looks pretty grim. Hope we can at least be competitive. 

[badgerx16]

16 hours ago, gio1saints said:

I keep dreaming it’s gonna be 5-0 or 5-1.

A Arma hat trick and 2 for BBD off the bench.

[JRM]

We've got Ryan Fraser behind enemy lines to give us tips. 

Got to hope Newcastle start slowly and we can keep the score down. 

Feel even less confident than when we went up in the league Cup semi final and that was a hopeless task

Hats off to the 3,204 travelling fans , great following 

[Nordic Saint]

20 hours ago, Dusic said:

With just over a couple of weeks left it seems to me that probably 9 players are nailed to start:

McCarthy, Sugawara, Bednarek, THB, Downes, Smallbone, Aribo, Arma, BBD

The only real decisions IMO would be whether is 3 or 4 at the back and therefore which two from Stephens, Manning, Taylor and Edozie get the nod to start.

Hard to see anyone signed now being ready to start the first game but you never know.

As it stands, attacking sub options will be woefully inadequate and likely worse than for many games last season.

It's a pity we can't start with Dibling and Amo-Ameyaw instead of Aribo and Smallbone, but you are probably right.

[Midfield_General]

13 hours ago, ally_uk said:

Jesus we desperately need some signings..... 

Do you think the management team don’t know this too? 

[RedArmy]

On 01/08/2024 at 14:13, SaintsFan86 said:

Presently we aren't good enough up front to play 4 at back, 

Macca;

THB - Bednarek - Stephens;

Sugawara - Smallbone - Downes - Aribo - Taylor;

Arma - BBD.

This is our best 11 of players that qe have to play, I'm not counting Kyle at this point he looks certain to leave.

Good grief that is so poor at this level 

[Lighthouse]

On 01/08/2024 at 14:13, SaintsFan86 said:

Presently we aren't good enough up front to play 4 at back,

I'm not sure that really works as an argument. You have to pay the ferryman at some point and having an extra CB usually just means you are lightweight in midfield. I remember Ralph trying it whichever season we played at Turf Moor on the opening day. We were dreadful, lost 3-0 and just couldn't keep the ball with no reliable outlet. Ultimately he ditched that formation and we looked much more solid reverting to a back four. I'm not saying that's always the correct defensive formation but it's incorrect to assume that a back five equals safety and solidity.

Right now I'd say,

McC... or Lucy, if she fancies a go

Suga   THB   Bednarek   Taylor

Smallbone   Downes   Aribo

Edozie   BBD   AA

[egg]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

I'm not sure that really works as an argument. You have to pay the ferryman at some point and having an extra CB usually just means you are lightweight in midfield. I remember Ralph trying it whichever season we played at Turf Moor on the opening day. We were dreadful, lost 3-0 and just couldn't keep the ball with no reliable outlet. Ultimately he ditched that formation and we looked much more solid reverting to a back four. I'm not saying that's always the correct defensive formation but it's incorrect to assume that a back five equals safety and solidity.

Right now I'd say,

McC... or Lucy, if she fancies a go

Suga   THB   Bednarek   Taylor

Smallbone   Downes   Aribo

Edozie   BBD   AA

Agree with that, and that's our best line up at the moment, unfortunately. 

[trousers]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You have to pay the ferryman at some point

Only when he gets you to the other side, of course...

 

Edited 2 August, 2024 by trousers

[danjosaint]

8 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

Do you think the management team don’t know this too? 

No, as there too blindsided to see what we actually need, instead being too loyal to players not good enough, and only signing 'his mates' it's the reason we will go straight back down with the worse defensive record 

[Baird of the land]

532 definitely feels the best approach at the moment for the players we’ve got.

[Harry_SFC]

8 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

532 definitely feels the best approach at the moment for the players we’ve got.

Agree. If we go up to Newcastle with our current squad and play 4 at the back I fear we will get torn apart. Feel like we just have to try and be hard to score against, as we know we don't have anything up top. 

Edited 3 August, 2024 by Harry_SFC

[Dusic]

2 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

Agree. If we go up to Newcastle with our current squad and play 4 at the back I fear we will get torn apart. Feel like we just have to try and be hard to score against, as we know we don't have anything up top. 

Very hard in that shape to sustain possession in attacking areas as we largely saw in the playoffs when we did play that shape. Especially as we don't have a LB/LWB with the ability to be a threat in the final third (hoping Sugawara would be on the right).

I imagine its the way we will go as our wingers are poor so easy decision to leave them out but we could defend well and the likes of Isak, Gordon etc still get three.

In the PL you have to have an attacking threat and a way of getting your forwards involved.

Positive is at least we have two shapes which offer different strengths.

Edited 3 August, 2024 by Dusic

[Matthew Le God]

10 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

532 definitely feels the best approach at the moment for the players we’ve got.

We've been using 433 throughout pre-season

[Harry_SFC]

5 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Very hard in that shape to sustain possession in attacking areas as we largely saw in the playoffs when we did play that shape. Especially as we don't have a LB/LWB with the ability to be a threat in the final third (hoping Sugawara would be on the right).

I imagine its the way we will go as our wingers are poor so easy decision to leave them out but we could defend well and the likes of Isak, Gordon etc still get three.

In the PL you have to have an attacking threat and a way of getting your forwards involved.

I would rather see a 4-3-3 in general so do agree to an extent - but to be honest with our current lack of quality I think whichever shape we play we will probably get beaten - it just depends on how many we lose by. That's quite negative I know.

Edited 3 August, 2024 by Harry_SFC

[austsaint]

It's certainly going to help this season (as a Saints supporter) if you're a fan of the underdog; as I am.   Wins, hopefully at least ten, and draws in certain games need to be celebrated long and hard.

[Baird of the land]

8 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

We've been using 433 throughout pre-season

It's not a shock we've been using a more attacking formation against weaker pre-season games so far.

I'd be disappointed if we aren't working on other approaches in training too & hopefully in later harder pre-season games.

 

 

 

[Berudenot2]

On 31/07/2024 at 19:52, trousers said:

No idea... But if Manning is the answer to any shortfalls we may have in central midfield then I fear for our PL survival chances... #cuttingcorners

 

[Disco Stu]

Newcastle are better than us in every position so if our plan is to go up there and outplay them, the result will be ugly. With that in mind, this is how I'd set us up with our current squad based on what I've seen so far:

 

                                          McCarthy

            Harwood-Bellis - Bednarek - Stephens

Sugawara - Smallbone - Downes - Aribo - Walker-Peters (clearly a better player than Taylor, if we're still paying his salary come the 17th, he must play)

                            Armstrong - Brereton-Diaz

 

If we have to play Taylor instead of Walker-Peters, 3-5-2 won't work as he lacks the pace required to bomb up and down the wings. In that case, I'd go 4-3-3:

 

                                           McCarthy

Sugawara - Harwood-Bellis - Bednarek - Taylor

                         Smallbone - Downes - Aribo

              Armstrong - Alcaraz/Dibling - Brereton-Diaz

 

I'd expect Alcaraz or Dibling to play that role as more of a false 9 creating space for Armstrong and Brereton-Diaz. Ultimately, we still need a CF. Serious lack of pace down that left side but I don't trust Edozie to get us goals and Taylor is a better full-back than Manning. Need to avoid unnecessary tika-taka in our own box particularly if we still have McCarthy between the sticks.

GK, DM, Winger, AM and CF are still essential signings we need to make in my opinion. Lacking depth and a couple of injuries (especially another Downes injury) would finish us right now.

 

Edited 3 August, 2024 by Disco Stu

[Fabrice29]

Enjoying everyones use of classic formations like 433 and 352 when we haven't played anything as static as that for quite a while now.

[Disco Stu]

34 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Enjoying everyones use of classic formations like 433 and 352 when we haven't played anything as static as that for quite a while now.

Formations don't tell you anything about how fluid or structured a team will play. 4-3-3 and 3-5-2 are neither fluid nor structured. Changes in the shape depending on in-game scenerios doesn't stop formations being a handy way to put a team down on paper. I don't think anyone is interpreting these as rigid systems.

[Fabrice29]

4 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Formations don't tell you anything about how fluid or structured a team will play. 4-3-3 and 3-5-2 are neither fluid nor structured. Changes in the shape depending on in-game scenerios doesn't stop formations being a handy way to put a team down on paper. I don't think anyone is interpreting these as rigid systems.

  Oh right.

5 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

If we have to play Taylor instead of Walker-Peters, 3-5-2 won't work as he lacks the pace required to bomb up and down the wings

 

[Disco Stu]

9 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

  Oh right.

 

Exactly, If I'm expecting the wingbacks to bomb up and down the wing, I'm not suggesting a "static" formation am I? I'm interpreting the 3-5-2 as a system where the wingbacks will be required to get back into a back 5 out of possession whilst also pushing forward to create a front 4 when in possession. That is MY interpretation as I said at the start of my comment "this is how I'd set us up with our current squad". Thanks for proving my point.

Edited 3 August, 2024 by Disco Stu

[northam soul]

At the moment we will still have a midfield theee that includes Aribo and Smallbone whatever formation we play.

IMO that just isn’t good enough.

[Fabrice29]

4 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Exactly, so I'm interpreting the 3-5-2 as a system where the wingbacks will be required to get back into a back 5 out of possession whilst also pushing forward to create a front 4 when in possession. That is MY interpretation as I said at the start of my comment "this is how I'd set us up with our current squad". Thanks for proving my point.

No worries mate, glad I could help. All I said was I was enjoying peoples set ups that haven't resembled how we've played for quite a while now.

[Fabrice29]

1 minute ago, northam soul said:

At the moment we will still have a midfield theee that includes Aribo and Smallbone whatever formation we play.

IMO that just isn’t good enough.

We literally played today and at no point did we have this midfield 3. 

Edited 3 August, 2024 by Fabrice29

[northam soul]

9 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

We literally played today and at no point did we have this midfield 3. 

So where were they playing then.

[Disco Stu]

1 hour ago, Fabrice29 said:

No worries mate, glad I could help. All I said was I was enjoying peoples set ups that haven't resembled how we've played for quite a while now.

You described 4-3-3 and 3-5-2 as "static" formations which is nonsense.

I also think, depending on how they're conceptualised, those formations can come close to resembling the systems we've seen Russell Martin use in the past. A formation isn't a tactical synopsis. As I say, just a handy way to get a team down on paper.

Edited 3 August, 2024 by Disco Stu

[Fabrice29]

7 minutes ago, northam soul said:

So where were they playing then.

They played as part of, at least, a midfield 4. But it's not really about midfield 3's or 4's is it. We don't play symmetrically and haven't done so for a while now. Players interchange to fill in certain positions on the pitch. Both Aribo and Smallbone are asked to move wide and interchange with the right sided wing back and our left winger. Stephens and Downes are asked to anchor the centre and disrupt play when there's a turn over. The idea of us playing a midfield 3 or left wing backs bombing up the line just isn't something we've done for a while.

[Disco Stu]

There's no chance we'll be seeing Taylor bombing up and down our left wing, but in the unlikely scenario KWP remains in the squad, it becomes another exciting option that I'd love to see with Sugawara and KWP providing attacking threat down both sides. Perhaps in the future, Larios could play the LWB role.

With attacking threat from both wing backs, we could keep the opposition on their toes. Depending on how the opposition have set up, we could have one wingback attacking whilst the other stays back to create that back 4 or alternatively, a midfielder such as Downes could move back to create the back 4 allowing us to quickly make a front 4 with Sugawara and KWP. Just throwing ideas out there. It can only be a good thing to have greater tactical flexibility.

I think one of the reasons we struggled to create as many chances using wingbacks was because at times, we became overreliant on KWP down our right side and it became predictable. He was a class above so we could still ultimately hurt teams but I think Premier League oppostion with better managers would be capable of nullifying us if we focus too much down one side. Without two attacking wingbacks, the better option would be to utilise more conventional wide attackers in my opinion.

I'm sure with different personnel and knowing his players better, Russell is considering new ways he can get the best out of his squad as well as tweaks to pre-existing systems that can make us less predictable which I think we were at times last season. The fun of a new season with new players is we don't know how exactly we're going to play.

Edited 3 August, 2024 by Disco Stu