The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I’d have thought the sight of labour MP’s cheering as winter fuel payments were taken from pensioners on 12k a year  may have got some comment, it certainly would of done if the Tories had done so. 

Good to see an interview this morning which trashed this black hole nonsense and underlined the fact that 9 billion for the unions was a political choice. 

[a1ex2001]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Good to see an interview this morning which trashed this black hole nonsense and underlined the fact that 9 billion for the unions was a political choice. 

The pay rises were coming regardless of who as in government, the junior doctors and train drivers situations would have had to be settled eventually and the others were in line with the pay review boards recommendations.

Care to link to the interview you watched?

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

The pay rises were coming regardless of who as in government, the junior doctors and train drivers situations would have had to be settled eventually and the others were in line with the pay review boards recommendations.

Care to link to the interview you watched?

Possibly this.....

https://news.sky.com/story/chancellors-black-hole-claim-unnecessary-and-unhelpful-says-ex-bank-of-england-economist-13213523

[a1ex2001]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Possibly this.....

https://news.sky.com/story/chancellors-black-hole-claim-unnecessary-and-unhelpful-says-ex-bank-of-england-economist-13213523

surely nobody could describe that a trashing it!

I suspect he's been watching Laura Kuenssberg who I would say stretched the idea that the BBC is politically neutral to the very limits of credibility, she might as well be a paid up member of the Tory party. 

[revolution saint]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Good to see an interview this morning which trashed this black hole nonsense and underlined the fact that 9 billion for the unions was a political choice. 

Obviously the pay deals for doctors and teachers are a political choice but they were the figures recommended by the independent pay review bodies.  Not 100% on this but I think the Tories had signed up to implement the recommendations of the pay review bodies as well.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, a1ex2001 said:

The pay rises were coming regardless of who as in government, the junior doctors and train drivers situations would have had to be settled eventually and the others were in line with the pay review boards recommendations.

Care to link to the interview you watched?

In what world were the pay rises and the deal agreed for the junior doctors and train drivers coming anyway? It was entirely a political choice to settle it on the terms that they did. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, revolution saint said:

Obviously the pay deals for doctors and teachers are a political choice but they were the figures recommended by the independent pay review bodies.  Not 100% on this but I think the Tories had signed up to implement the recommendations of the pay review bodies as well.

So all the pay rises announced were labour following the recommendations of independent review bodies? 

[revolution saint]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

So all the pay rises announced were labour following the recommendations of independent review bodies? 

According to reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-public-sector-workers-get-above-inflation-pay-rises-worth-9-billion-pounds-2024-07-29/#:~:text=LONDON%2C July 29 (Reuters),the government said on Monday.
So I assume that's the 9 billion you were talking about.  

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

According to reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-public-sector-workers-get-above-inflation-pay-rises-worth-9-billion-pounds-2024-07-29/#:~:text=LONDON%2C July 29 (Reuters),the government said on Monday.
So I assume that's the 9 billion you were talking about.  

As I understand it, the junior doctor pay rise and the train driver pay rise is not a result of following independent recommendations. I could be wrong but can't find that in any news article. 

[revolution saint]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

As I understand it, the junior doctor pay rise and the train driver pay rise is not a result of following independent recommendations. I could be wrong but can't find that in any news article. 

Wouldn't the train driver deal be paid for by the franchise owner?  I'm not sure on the junior doctors either.

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

Wouldn't the train driver deal be paid for by the franchise owner?  I'm not sure on the junior doctors either.

Doesn't sound like it 

"Bridget Phillipson, the education Secretary, refused to say where the money for the train driver pay deal would come from. The Government spends £12bn a year subsidising the rail industry, leaving open the possibility that taxpayers will fund the pay rise."

[a1ex2001]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

As I understand it, the junior doctor pay rise and the train driver pay rise is not a result of following independent recommendations. I could be wrong but can't find that in any news article. 

The junior doctors and train drivers pay rises were negotiated settlements of long running pay disputes and both were below what the unions were asking for, some sort of compromise was inevitable who ever was in government particularly in the Junior doctors case where they actually settled way below what they had initially demanded.  The pay offers were always going to be above the current rate of inflation because the disputes started when inflation was higher and hadn't been resolved because the previous government essentially failed to negotiate in good faith and failed to put a reasonable offer on the table.  The conservatives may have kept the rises lower but they would inevitably have come and inevitably been above the current rate of inflation, what the Labour government did was act swiftly to bring to an end the disputes and the disruption they cause.  Will you be complaining when the pension goes up way above the current rate of inflation this year?  or pay in the private sector outstrips inflation or is it just unionised workers you object to being fairly rewarded?

[a1ex2001]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Doesn't sound like it 

"Bridget Phillipson, the education Secretary, refused to say where the money for the train driver pay deal would come from. The Government spends £12bn a year subsidising the rail industry, leaving open the possibility that taxpayers will fund the pay rise."

tax payer prop up the entire privatised rail service while it pays dividends to it's share holders it is an appalling scam that will hopefully come to an end all it has achieved is making rich people and foreign companies richer at the exchequers cost!

[whelk]

5 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

2 months into fixing a Tory mess 14 years in the making, I think we should wait a while longer before passing critical judgement.

Also, watching Victoria Atkins getting shredded by Wes Streeting was particularly enjoyable.

Why the fuck have they not built more prisons yet? Can’t keep blaming the Tories!

[hypochondriac]

25 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

The junior doctors and train drivers pay rises were negotiated settlements of long running pay disputes and both were below what the unions were asking for, some sort of compromise was inevitable who ever was in government particularly in the Junior doctors case where they actually settled way below what they had initially demanded.  The pay offers were always going to be above the current rate of inflation because the disputes started when inflation was higher and hadn't been resolved because the previous government essentially failed to negotiate in good faith and failed to put a reasonable offer on the table.  The conservatives may have kept the rises lower but they would inevitably have come and inevitably been above the current rate of inflation, what the Labour government did was act swiftly to bring to an end the disputes and the disruption they cause.  Will you be complaining when the pension goes up way above the current rate of inflation this year?  or pay in the private sector outstrips inflation or is it just unionised workers you object to being fairly rewarded?

The train driver settlement was no strings attached and included paying people who have already left. Like I said, it was a political choice to do so. 

[a1ex2001]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

The train driver settlement was no strings attached and included paying people who have already left. Like I said, it was a political choice to do so. 

Any negotiated settlement is a political choice but when you look at the numbers involved and consider it is a three year long dispute then it isn't actually particularly offensive

2022 - 5% - Below inflation at the time (state pension increase 3.1%)

2023 - 4.75% - Below inflation at the time (state pension increase 10.1%)

2024 - 4.5% - Above current rates of inflation (state pension increase 6.7%)

So really all you've got is that it was paid to people who had already left and no strings were attached,  attaching conditions to what is essential a pay cut in the first two years seems a little harsh and if the government had negotiated a settlement in good time then the people wouldn't have left before they got paid what was due so blame them.  I think we can all agree that there needs to be some changes in the railway industry but painting this pay settlement as a really big deal is probably just petty jealousy of the train drivers and their strong union.  The last government didn't even talk to the union for over a year!

Edited September 13 by a1ex2001

[rallyboy]

The departed corrupt excuse for a government avoided making any decisions because they had already destroyed the economy and decided instead to adopt the negotiating strategy of a petulant shouty stubborn child, thus resulting in many working days lost through strike action and rock bottom morale across several sectors.

To suggest that pensioners have been robbed to pay train drivers is the equivalent of wearing a T-Shirt that says "I'm thicker than a Boxing Day turd, I can't grasp basic concepts so I literally just repeat any mad drivel that the Telegraph prints."

What we have learned though is that people who have spent the last 14 years fucking over the poor, the old and the disabled have suddenly developed empathy, which is progress - the country feels more united, which has to be good.

 

[sadoldgit]

Strange to see hypo so suddenly interested in what the Government of the day are up to given he didn’t make a peep about the previous Government’s shortcomings over the last 14 years.

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Strange to see hypo so suddenly interested in what the Government of the day are up to given he didn’t make a peep about the previous Government’s shortcomings over the last 14 years.

So you've tracked back Hypos post over that 14 years and know for a fact he never once made a negative comment on the last government have you? Now that's strange.

[badgerx16]

15 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So you've tracked back Hypos post over that 14 years and know for a fact he never once made a negative comment on the last government have you? Now that's strange.

Maybe SOGgy is keeping files on his 'usual suspects', all labelled and cross-referenced by date and subject.

[revolution saint]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Doesn't sound like it 

"Bridget Phillipson, the education Secretary, refused to say where the money for the train driver pay deal would come from. The Government spends £12bn a year subsidising the rail industry, leaving open the possibility that taxpayers will fund the pay rise."

Yeah OK, but that also shows the ridiculous nature of privatising an industry and continuing to subsidise it.  You could just as well argue that we're using the public purse to pay dividends to shareholders.  

[hypochondriac]

36 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So you've tracked back Hypos post over that 14 years and know for a fact he never once made a negative comment on the last government have you? Now that's strange.

Quite. I was plenty critical of the conservatives. They were crap. Only fair that Labour gets the same level of scrutiny- albeit they haven't been there for long yet. 

[Turkish]

5 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Maybe SOGgy is keeping files on his 'usual suspects', all labelled and cross-referenced by date and subject.

He’d certainly be an expert at putting them together and filing them away in an orderly fashion 

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

He’d certainly be an expert at putting them together and filing them away in an orderly fashion 

I doubt he has individual files. That would make it too difficult for him to generalise and cast aspersions on as wide a group as possible. More likely it's just one big file he labels "far right" and another one marked "the Jews."

[harvey]

On 13/09/2024 at 10:47, Gloucester Saint said:

Not especially, it’s actually good to have some governance without the constant infighting and lurching all over the place we had since 2015. 

There’s a reason as a Lib Dem why my seat has it’s first ever Lib Dem MP on a substantial majority having overturned 24k - as a party if you don’t understand why that it is, it will be an even longer road back for you. 

FWIW I don’t agree with the outdoor smoking plans, but the NHS initial approach sounds sensible albeit needing more flesh on the bones and there needs to be more focus on social care to stop the hospitals from clogging which the Lib Dem’s are rightly pushing Labour on. I’m sure you’ll be honest enough to admit the Conservatives failed dreadfully on this with 5 ministers in less than 5 years. The emphasis on preventative health is also sensible. Streeting is quality and I wish we had him (Lib Dems). 

The winter fuel allowance issue is trickier but overall I think the burden needed to shared across the generations, I just hope the means testing is done properly. But I do respect that not everyone will agree. 

 

An 'even longer road back for who'?.....I didn't vote Tory, but I'm absolutely pissed off with them that they made it so easy for Labour to gain power through their own incompetence.

I think that Labour have a hard hill to climb but I don't think they've helped themselves ...the winter fuel allowance being a case in point while spending generously on 'green targets' and 'foreign aid'. The NHS initial approach.....would that involve some sort of privatisation?

[Gloucester Saint]

2 hours ago, harvey said:

An 'even longer road back for who'?.....I didn't vote Tory, but I'm absolutely pissed off with them that they made it so easy for Labour to gain power through their own incompetence.

I think that Labour have a hard hill to climb but I don't think they've helped themselves ...the winter fuel allowance being a case in point while spending generously on 'green targets' and 'foreign aid'. The NHS initial approach.....would that involve some sort of privatisation?

Probably, the NHS won’t get a hugely bigger settlement without some blood letting of ineffective leaders in the Trusts and arms lengths bodies. It would be giving Russell Martin a £250m transfer window budget with his odd tactics otherwise and waiting lists won’t clear by themselves.

On renewables, we’ve got to build the market more to increase our energy independence. It was a manifesto pledge as well so they have to go do some forward looking things, the economy was left in such severely bad shape that you could spend all of your time repairing it. Foreign aid - depends where it goes, but it can be a soft power solution to reducing asylum pressures somewhat. If you look at just how much the country has been spending on short-term accommodation for processing claims (most of which will be rejected) it is worth a try. 

Edited September 14 by Gloucester Saint

[Lord Duckhunter]

Looks like Sir Kier  may be facing an investigation into not declaring Lord Alli paid for his Mrs’ clothes as well as his own. Sir Kier suddenly released he’d “forgotten” to declare them when The Times started sniffing around.
 

Lammy  meanwhile defends him by suggestion the tax payer should pony up for The Starmers clobber, so they can look their best. 
 

This new broom is remarkably like the old one. 
 

 

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Looks like Sir Kier  may be facing an investigation into not declaring Lord Alli paid for his Mrs’ clothes as well as his own. Sir Kier suddenly released he’d “forgotten” to declare them when The Times started sniffing around.
 

Lammy  meanwhile defends him by suggestion the tax payer should pony up for The Starmers clobber, so they can look their best. 
 

This new broom is remarkably like the old one. 
 

 

Thank goodness we had the towering intellect Lammy available to explain it. Looks like Labour aren't the saintly figures that some proclaim them to be after all. Only took a couple of months for the glaring hypocrisy to become apparent. 

https://x.com/andreajenkyns/status/1835261662397436117?t=KN7osfp1ZWcukn9VbHHALQ&s=19

Edited September 15 by hypochondriac

[AlexLaw76]

Thus always was….new boss, like the old one but with better PR

[whelk]

Comical, you lot are so desperate to lap up any non-story. Going to be a long ten years for you

Edited September 15 by whelk

[whelk]

Have you got over his Covid beer yet? Or Rayner’s house sale?

[Tamesaint]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Have you got over his Covid beer yet? Or Rayner’s house sale?

I bet they still feel "outrage" at Maggie's picture being moved. 😁😁

[hypochondriac]

4 hours ago, whelk said:

Comical, you lot are so desperate to lap up any non-story. Going to be a long ten years for you

I just don't like reports of adults being back in the room and the end of Tory sleaze only to find to no ones surprise that the new boss isn't substantially different from the old one. Tories are shit and Labour are simply a different flavour of shit in better packaging - only with a larger group of oddballs prepared to justify their actions because of their political ideology. Now if Starmer had taken £70,000 and instead of giving it to his wife for clothing had donated it to a worthy cause or similar then maybe it would be worth sitting up to take notice. He didn't though because the reality is the majority of politicians are self-serving and give zero shits for the people they lord over. A plague on both your houses has always been the smarter play. 

Edited September 15 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

I bet they still feel "outrage" at Maggie's picture being moved. 😁😁

I wonder how you'd react if Boris Johnson had taken £70,000 from a donor for clothes for a mistress. I'm sure you'd be downplaying it in exactly the same manner. 

[harvey]

41 minutes ago, whelk said:

Comical, you lot are so desperate to lap up any non-story. Going to be a long ten years for you

10 years?....not a chance! 😂😂😂

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Thus always was….new boss, like the old one but with better PR

Let’s look what they’ve done so far. 
 

Despite opposing it in opposition, they voted to maintain the 2 child benefit cap. 
 

They took winter fuel payments off the vast majority of pensioners, despite in opposition saying they’d protect it. 
 

Despite opposing the Tory early release scheme in opposition, they’ve widened it. 
 

Despite saying in opposition they’d end cronyism, the bloke who kitted out Starmer & his mrs is given an access all areas pass to number 10. 
 

Despite saying in opposition they’d we whiter than white, Starmer “forgot” to register his Mrs free clothes.

Despite saying in opposition there was a 40 billion black hole, they are suddenly “shocked” to find a 22 billion one. 

As you say, meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The only difference is the lack of posts from the progressive gang on here. 
 

 

[hypochondriac]

Maybe Keir Starmer the granny harmer could have donated that 70k to some of the old people receiving over 11k a year and saved a few hundred of them this winter. Just a thought. Probably more important that Victoria received a couple of pairs of Louboutins anyway. At least it may have been the reason that Carol Vorderman has decided to hide her tweets so every cloud and all that. 

Edited September 15 by hypochondriac

[rallyboy]

Johnson and Hancock killing old people in care homes......silence.

Starmer cutting allowances to some wealthy ones....end of the world!

Yawn.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

14 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Starmer cutting allowances to some wealthy ones....end of the world!

“Some wealthy ones”, 😂.

Dear god, if it wasn’t for your defence of Huw Edward’s, this would be the most ignorant post written on here this past couple of years. 

[Gloucester Saint]

22 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Let’s look what they’ve done so far. 
 

Despite opposing it in opposition, they voted to maintain the 2 child benefit cap. 
 

They took winter fuel payments off the vast majority of pensioners, despite in opposition saying they’d protect it. 
 

Despite opposing the Tory early release scheme in opposition, they’ve widened it. 
 

Despite saying in opposition they’d end cronyism, the bloke who kitted out Starmer & his mrs is given an access all areas pass to number 10. 
 

Despite saying in opposition they’d we whiter than white, Starmer “forgot” to register his Mrs free clothes.

Despite saying in opposition there was a 40 billion black hole, they are suddenly “shocked” to find a 22 billion one. 

As you say, meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The only difference is the lack of posts from the progressive gang on here. 
 

 

All governments tend to frontload the most difficult decisions when it’s a more difficult inheritance. Thatcher and Howe doubled VAT (definitely a tax on working people), Cameron, Clegg and Osborne went further with austerity than had been discussed during the campaign and of course we (Lib Dems) stuffed ourselves for years on tuition fees. If they hadn’t made some of those decisions early on, they’d have been accused of tax and spend which other parts of the Tory employee network in the tabloids are moaning about at the next budget when the economic inheritance is worse than 1979 especially without the EEC membership to help recover and the North Sea oil boosts which weren’t used well (see Norway).

Working railways and potential to get NHS waiting lists down are a help and people will benefit. Private Eye has been reporting for some time about Starmer’s liking football freebies and he needs to be more careful there. What is ok in opposition is less so in power. Although that point is wiped out totally if Jenrick wins Tory leader with his dreadful corruption record.

The Tory conference is struggling to sell any business tickets and stands, and Farage has had notably worse polling since the riots. SNP seems to be in a right mess still.

 

[whelk]

23 hours ago, harvey said:

10 years?....not a chance! 😂😂😂

You got confidence that Jenrick will energise the Tories and lead them back to power? IDS was more inspiring. Tory voters die off each year and will never win over the young without complete shift, and currently they are toxic to the kids. So not a vote of confidence in Labour but there isn’t a credible alternative and won’t be in 5 years.

[Gloucester Saint]

49 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

“Some wealthy ones”, 😂.

Dear god, if it wasn’t for your defence of Huw Edward’s, this would be the most ignorant post written on here this past couple of years. 

What do you think of the sentence just given? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgxg673y8et

I can relate to the judge’s comments about low risk to the public and his career and personal life he has destroyed for himself. I can imagine some people will think it should have been a few years in HMP and I could empathise.

[Whitey Grandad]

On 13/09/2024 at 16:28, revolution saint said:

Wouldn't the train driver deal be paid for by the franchise owner?  I'm not sure on the junior doctors either.

It’s paid for by the pensioners.

[whelk]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It’s paid for by the pensioners.

You pensioners are far better off than any future generation will be. Triple lock is unaffordable. There are many with genuine need but far more that are loaded and use the fuel payment as a nice bonus from the govt.

[rallyboy]

58 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

“Some wealthy ones”, 😂.

Dear god, if it wasn’t for your defence of Huw Edward’s, this would be the most ignorant post written on here this past couple of years. 

You just accused me of defending a paedophile - that's a serious accusation that you need to back up.

 

 

[The Left Back]

It's very heartwarming to read our erstwhile right-leaning contributors have suddenly become champions of the poor and downtrodden.  How long before they start asking for more progressive policies on asylum seekers?

And how those same, Boris/Nigel-loving apologists have quickly found a moral compass now that there's someone else to batter with it. Can we expect them now to join the campaign to raise standards in public life?

My personal barometer is that if the Mail and LD are moaning then the government is doing something right.  There's plenty of change going on which will help rebuild this country, but none of it grabs the headlines as much as Maggie's photo being moved to a less distracting place in No. 10.

 

[revolution saint]

13 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It’s paid for by the pensioners.

The train drivers deal and/or the junior doctors is paid for specifically and only by pensioners?  That's simply not true.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, revolution saint said:

The train drivers deal and/or the junior doctors is paid for specifically and only by pensioners?  That's simply not true.

No it’s not true. The contribution from the pensioners is nowhere near enough.

Did I say entirely by the pensioners?

[revolution saint]

4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

No it’s not true. The contribution from the pensioners is nowhere near enough.

Did I say entirely by the pensioners?

So you may as well have said paid for by the state which we all contribute towards. In any case, it hasn't been established whether the state is contributing towards the train drivers pay increase.

Obviously it's not ideal to be taking away something from pensioners (and some are in desperate positions) but lets not get carried away with the idea that all of them are in poor financial straits.  I suspect there's a large proportion of them that can afford season tickets here, in fact maybe more so than the average working person.

[buctootim]

Not a huge surprise that the ONLY group of Britons who would prefer Fascism over Communism are Reform voters