The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[rallyboy]

He's a thug and a fucking idiot. 

 

[hypochondriac]

14 hours ago, rallyboy said:

He's a thug and a fucking idiot. 

 

Finally something we can agree on. 

[sadoldgit]

34 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Finally something we can agree on. 

It’s just a shame that you haven’t bothered to call out all of the fucking idiots we were subjected to over the 14 years of Tory rule too, or the ones currently in opposition.

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

It’s just a shame that you haven’t bothered to call out all of the fucking idiots we were subjected to over the 14 years of Tory rule too, or the ones currently in opposition.

Agreed. Every time anyone posts on anything they should also mention the 14 years of Tory rule, we should also mention not all Muslims are terrorists and Trump is a prick too.

for example

Aribos got to be stronger there. Personally I blame his lack of conviction holding him due to 14 years of Tory rule compounded with the fact that Trump is a narcissist, however given the opponent was a Muslim it was great to see he got past him without screaming Allah Akbar! You see not all Muslims are terrorists 

[rallyboy]

56 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Finally something we can agree on. 

It's no big deal, sensible posters call out poor behaviour across all sides of arguments.

The stubborn few on here who refuse to take off their tinted glasses should take the plunge, spouting deluded crap in defence of lost causes is never a good look.

 

 

 

[sadoldgit]

15 hours ago, rallyboy said:

He's a thug and a fucking idiot. 

 

There needs to be a by-election. It is crazy that a person serving a jail term after being elected can just waltz back into Parliament in a few weeks time. Mind you, the President of the US has got away with worse. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

48 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Agreed. Every time anyone posts on anything they should also mention the 14 years of Tory rule, we should also mention not all Muslims are terrorists and Trump is a prick too.

for example

Aribos got to be stronger there. Personally I blame his lack of conviction holding him due to 14 years of Tory rule compounded with the fact that Trump is a narcissist, however given the opponent was a Muslim it was great to see he got past him without screaming Allah Akbar! You see not all Muslims are terrorists 

It's really the fault of SaintsWeb. Other forums allow to have signatures beneath each post. Then we could have all of that to every post to save time and give all the correct signalling.

And I thought Aribo looked a bit tired after another sleepless night torn over resolving the Gaza conflict.

[AlexLaw76]

29 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

There needs to be a by-election. It is crazy that a person serving a jail term after being elected can just waltz back into Parliament in a few weeks time. Mind you, the President of the US has got away with worse. 

What about the plight of Palestinians?

[hypochondriac]

49 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

It's no big deal, sensible posters call out poor behaviour across all sides of arguments.

The stubborn few on here who refuse to take off their tinted glasses should take the plunge, spouting deluded crap in defence of lost causes is never a good look.

 

 

 

Agree again! Resolutely refusing to criticise the "other side" of an argument or even worse misrepresenting or lying about an opposing view is beyond tiresome. 

Regarding poor MP behaviour, I think we can all agree that there have been some absolute giant shits and wronguns in all sides of the house. 

[rallyboy]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

 

Regarding poor MP behaviour, I think we can all agree that there have been some absolute giant shits and wronguns in all sides of the house. 

You and I agree but there are others who still refuse to accept that.

Having ignored the last decade of criminality and incompetence, they now seethe with faux outrage over any Labour/LibDem mistake, wittering that it's never been this bad. 

To gloss over the blatant corruption of the Johnson and Sunak era and parrot serial charlatans like Anderson, Philp, Braverman, Jenrick and Lowe takes a special kind of person - the sort who we will see exactly a week from today.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

It was wrong of me not to criticise that Tory MP who got jailed for beating up a constituent. 
 

As for “The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?”  It appears the answer is “no, but that’s ok because The Tories were bad as well”….

 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Agree again! Resolutely refusing to criticise the "other side" of an argument or even worse misrepresenting or lying about an opposing view is beyond tiresome. 

Regarding poor MP behaviour, I think we can all agree that there have been some absolute giant shits and wronguns in all sides of the house. 

What else can you expect after 14 years of self serving Tory government? People have been forced to only take one side and lie about the other as the Tories drove us to this. Now Trump is there lying through his teeth about everything when he’s not sexual assaulting women which makes the problem even worse. I notice he’s not assaulted a Muslim women yet, I guess that’s because he think they’re all terrorists which we know isn’t true, look at Nadyia Hussain

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It was wrong of me not to criticise that Tory MP who got jailed for beating up a constituent. 
 

As for “The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?”  It appears the answer is “no, but that’s ok because The Tories were bad as well”….

 

14 years against 6 months. There is an awful lot of sweeping to be done and if you recall, Starmer said it will take 10 years to put things right.

Strong speech by Starmer this afternoon, navigating his upcoming meeting with Trump and Badenoch’s attempts to paint him in to a corner over where the money is coming from for increased defence spending.

[Weston Super Saint]

57 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

14 years against 6 months. There is an awful lot of sweeping to be done and if you recall, Starmer said it will take 10 years to put things right.

The Victorian MP said it would take 50 years to see the full benefits of Brexit, but you weren't so willing to accept that timescale...

[hypochondriac]

31 pages and the usual posters are still talking about the Tories in the thread about Labour. 

[egg]

6 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It was wrong of me not to criticise that Tory MP who got jailed for beating up a constituent. 
 

As for “The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?”  It appears the answer is “no, but that’s ok because The Tories were bad as well”….

 

The only sensible answer is "no, because they inherited a shit show and we're skint".

It's impossible to discuss the impossible job labour have without mentioning who made the job impossible. 

[hypochondriac]

17 minutes ago, egg said:

The only sensible answer is "no, because they inherited a shit show and we're skint".

It's impossible to discuss the impossible job labour have without mentioning who made the job impossible. 

No job is impossible. There are degrees here it's not all good or all bad and even the most ardent Labour supporter will surely admit that they've made an awful lot of mistakes since last summer even if what they inherited made the job difficult. 

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No job is impossible. There are degrees here it's not all good or all bad and even the most ardent Labour supporter will surely admit that they've made an awful lot of mistakes since last summer even if what they inherited made the job difficult. 

Too much hiding behind and blaming the failures of the preceding administrations, not enough constructive thinking.

[Gloucester Saint]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No job is impossible. There are degrees here it's not all good or all bad and even the most ardent Labour supporter will surely admit that they've made an awful lot of mistakes since last summer even if what they inherited made the job difficult. 

As a Liberal Democrat voter, I didn’t agree with the employers NI rise, it should have been the employees NI rise revoked as it clearly wasn’t affordable. Not the route to growth. Reynolds pissed me off and Starmer needs to shake the tree for any more duds.

Some promising signs on the boats and asylum, more than Braverman or Patel ever managed.

The only way to really get out this mess is to rejoin the Single Market, we can’t have the services we are used to, decent roads and infrastructure with 6% of the economy missing. I guess we will gradually move back nearer that but not as fast as I want and we need.

Hopefully the MAGA implosion over DOGE and Trump being crystal clear about not being fussed about European security or prosperity  will underscore this for all bar the most hardcore Red Wall seats. It won’t do the populists much good either being on the wrong side with Putin. Reform will probably still beat the Tories next time though as they leak further seats to the Liberals lurching even further right.

Edited February 25 by Gloucester Saint

[egg]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No job is impossible. There are degrees here it's not all good or all bad and even the most ardent Labour supporter will surely admit that they've made an awful lot of mistakes since last summer even if what they inherited made the job difficult. 

By that logic, Juric could have come in, inherited years of abject failure, and got us into the top 4. It hasn't happened because it's an impossible ask. Labour are similarly hampered.

I'm not a labour man and I agree they've had a shocker, but, what they inherited is and always be relevant. 

[Gloucester Saint]

Although frankly the fucking line up Ivan Juric for the Chelsea game just picked makes any politician look sane. 

[hypochondriac]

25 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Too much hiding behind and blaming the failures of the preceding administrations, not enough constructive thinking.

100%.

[aintforever]

30 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No job is impossible. There are degrees here it's not all good or all bad and even the most ardent Labour supporter will surely admit that they've made an awful lot of mistakes since last summer even if what they inherited made the job difficult. 

The mistake was painting themselves into a corner over tax rises before the election, but you can see why they did because all the parties were playing fantasy economics during the campaign. Whoever won would have had the same problems.

[hypochondriac]

25 minutes ago, egg said:

By that logic, Juric could have come in, inherited years of abject failure, and got us into the top 4. It hasn't happened because it's an impossible ask. Labour are similarly hampered.

I'm not a labour man and I agree they've had a shocker, but, what they inherited is and always be relevant. 

Nobody asked him to do that though just as nobody expected labour to come in and fix everything. What people wanted with Juric was for us to improve and put a consistent run of improved form together. What is expected from Labour is the equivalent for the country. Sure it's an impossible job if your expectations are wildly and completely out of kilter. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

The mistake was painting themselves into a corner over tax rises before the election, but you can see why they did because all the parties were playing fantasy economics during the campaign. Whoever won would have had the same problems.

The mistakes aren't solely on tax although I agree that is one of the problems. 

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Although frankly the fucking line up Ivan Juric for the Chelsea game just picked makes any politician look sane. 

Yep!! Labours NI and farmers decisions look almost sane in comparison. Labour and Juric may have inherited shit shows, but by Christ they've both made the worst of bad hands. 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Nobody asked him to do that though just as nobody expected labour to come in and fix everything. What people wanted with Juric was for us to improve and put a consistent run of improved form together. What is expected from Labour is the equivalent for the country. Sure it's an impossible job if your expectations are wildly and completely out of kilter. 

Realistically, what did you expect from them? 

[AlexLaw76]

Thankfully, energy bills are going to drop... It was promised to us a few months back.

Or is that filed with the no more council tax rises promise?

Edited February 25 by AlexLaw76

[hypochondriac]

47 minutes ago, egg said:

Realistically, what did you expect from them? 

Much better PR, the "adults being back in the room" which means no scandals on expenses or peddling of undue influence from outside parties, not banging on about great British energy saving us money when energy bills only go up, not making a cock up of the finances and the messaging around the finances so we've seen less tax revenue in than predicted and the tax take going down for the first time in a while. I think they clearly went heavily on how terrible everything was and how it was unlikely to get better when they first got in, realised that was a terrible mistake and so did a handbrake turn and are trying to accentuate positives now. I thought hiring Sue Grey in the manner they did was a terrible unforced error and made them look really dodgy needlessly. I think the Chagos Island deal makes them look weak and gives an impression that they aren't acting in our interests even if I don't particularly care about the Island in isolation. 

I accept that some things such as private schools and the farmers stuff is a political choice that I disagree with but they could argue they had a mandate for. I think that even discounting that stuff and allowing for the difficult financial situation they inherited, they've been below my expectations and have failed to sell a vision of Britain and a cohesive narrative to the country - hence the woeful polling data (a fact that even Alistair Campbell has been criticising them for.) 

Edited February 25 by hypochondriac

[Sir Ralph]

Good poll - whose had a better start to their tenure - Starmer or Juric?

[Gloucester Saint]

17 minutes ago, Sir Ralph said:

Good poll - whose had a better start to their tenure - Starmer or Juric?

Didn’t vote for Labour but objectively slightly better than Sunak and still miles better even with a lot of mis-steps than Boris and God forbid, Truss. Plenty of issues and frustrations with things they have done eg NI rise on businesses when the unaffordable employee cut should have rolled back and some dishonest behaviour eg Reynolds, but handling Ukraine and Trump situation well, and those are very difficult. Early progress on reducing illegal immigration and processing rejections much faster. 

Labour have much scope to do better overall. And the country can’t do what it needs to do with a 6% hole in the economy (Single Market) whoever is in power. So no feasible scope for Tories or Reform to do any better, look at the pathetic trade deals outside of the EU that Truss did. The Australian one in particular.
Hopefully Labour gets its big boy pants on around rolling the hard Brexit back but I’ve a nasty feeling they won’t. But I’m Lib Dem so I would say that.

Juric - struggling to think of one thing positive other than Ipswich away (even Martin won one PL game), so has to be him worse logically.

Edited February 25 by Gloucester Saint

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Thankfully, energy bills are going to drop... It was promised to us a few months back.

Or is that filed with the no more council tax rises promise?

Its Filed with the promise to protect winter fuel allowance, to compensate the Waspi birds, to cut back on private air travel by ministers. 
 

Last year, Steve Reed told the Country Land and Business Association Labour would not raise inheritance tax on family farms…

Raynor criticised Boris for employing a “vanity photographer”, you’ll never guess what she’s now got….

Thats before we even come onto Lord Alli, beating up constituents, lying on CVs, lying to parliament that you’re a solicitor, putting a known fraudster in the cabinet and all the freebie’s. 
 

They’re now cutting foreign aid to boost defence spending, a Reform policy that would have the usual suspects spitting feathers if the “fair right” Tories had done it. 

Still, it’s not their fault. The Tories made them do it…😂😂😂

 

[AlexLaw76]

8 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Its Filed with the promise to protect winter fuel allowance, to compensate the Waspi birds, to cut back on private air travel by ministers. 
 

Last year, Steve Reed told the Country Land and Business Association Labour would not raise inheritance tax on family farms…

Raynor criticised Boris for employing a “vanity photographer”, you’ll never guess what she’s now got….

Thats before we even come onto Lord Alli, beating up constituents, lying on CVs, lying to parliament that you’re a solicitor, putting a known fraudster in the cabinet and all the freebie’s. 
 

They’re now cutting foreign aid to boost defence spending, a Reform policy that would have the usual suspects spitting feathers if the “fair right” Tories had done it. 

Still, it’s not their fault. The Tories made them do it…😂😂😂

 

New broom indeed

😂

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

New broom indeed

😂

This new broom needs 10 more years, 2 more general elections, taking away pensioners fuel allowance, raising taxes,  blaming everything on the Tories or far right.

 

[whelk]

Who knew the simpleton gammons would be so easy to manipulate?

[egg]

9 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Its Filed with the promise to protect winter fuel allowance, to compensate the Waspi birds, to cut back on private air travel by ministers. 
 

Last year, Steve Reed told the Country Land and Business Association Labour would not raise inheritance tax on family farms…

Raynor criticised Boris for employing a “vanity photographer”, you’ll never guess what she’s now got….

Thats before we even come onto Lord Alli, beating up constituents, lying on CVs, lying to parliament that you’re a solicitor, putting a known fraudster in the cabinet and all the freebie’s. 
 

They’re now cutting foreign aid to boost defence spending, a Reform policy that would have the usual suspects spitting feathers if the “fair right” Tories had done it. 

Still, it’s not their fault. The Tories made them do it…😂😂😂

 

As I've said, they've had a shocker, but it still doesn't alter the relevance of them having inherited a shit show. 

That said, I'm glad they've limited fuel payments to just those who need it, found a way to increase defence spending, not given in to the waspi's. Sure, they've lost trust and confidence by eventually coming it their senses, but they've royally messed up with the farmer's, ditto NI, and although their PR is atrocious and the behaviour of some MP's is poor, let's not pretend it's anywhere near as bad as the swathes of people getting uber wealthy on the back of Tory deals and their general shadiness. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

This new broom needs 10 more years, 2 more general elections, taking away pensioners fuel allowance, raising taxes,  blaming everything on the Tories or far right.

 

It does need 10 years, and about another 100bn of extra tax/less spending. It can't magic the latter though, hence all they can do is move the balls around in the least shit way possible.

Labour supporters mostly say that they're doing their best. Tory and Reform supporters seem to have forgotten the last 14 years. Everyone else seems to realise you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, although they could have made a better stab at it than they have to date. 

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, egg said:

As I've said, they've had a shocker, but it still doesn't alter the relevance of them having inherited a shit show. 

That said, I'm glad they've limited fuel payments to just those who need it, found a way to increase defence spending, not given in to the waspi's. Sure, they've lost trust and confidence by eventually coming it their senses, but they've royally messed up with the farmer's, ditto NI, and although their PR is atrocious and the behaviour of some MP's is poor, let's not pretend it's anywhere near as bad as the swathes of people getting uber wealthy on the back of Tory deals and their general shadiness. 

No point bringing balanced, objective posts on here. And yes, further reducing overseas aid to boost military spending is something Reform and the current Tories would’ve done (Cameron would have hated it) but it’ll be popular with voters and with Trump’s moves away from NATO it is easy to justify. So committed right wing voters will be pissy about that.

Also navigating the Trump situation well overall. Winter fuel allowance fine by me as well. And asylum cases getting processed faster, rejected often and gangs arrests significantly up.

Plenty I don’t like as well and disappointed about - NI rise on employers, not employees, especially impact on SMEs and non-exempted charities and universities, Reynolds and Reeves, weaker in rolling back Brexit, Farmer fight not worth the hassle, and MP behaviour which has been abysmal in some cases.

 

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

No point bringing balanced, objective posts on here. And yes, further reducing overseas aid to boost military spending is something Reform and the current Tories would’ve done (Cameron would have hated it) but it’ll be popular with voters and with Trump’s moves away from NATO it is easy to justify. So committed right wing voters will be pissy about that.

Also navigating the Trump situation well overall. Winter fuel allowance fine by me as well. And asylum cases getting processed faster, rejected often and gangs arrests significantly up.

Plenty I don’t like as well and disappointed about - NI rise on employers, not employees, especially impact on SMEs and non-exempted charities and universities, Reynolds and Reeves, weaker in rolling back Brexit, Farmer fight not worth the hassle, and MP behaviour which has been abysmal in some cases.

 

Indeed, my thoughts entirely. I'm not sure I understand LD' point re foreign aid. It doesn't matter that other parties may have done that, the fact is that Starmer has reacted quickly and sensibly in the light of Donny's lunacy. 

It'll be interesting how they navigate the financial impact of NI increases. Issues galore will unfold there. 

[tdmickey3]

35 minutes ago, egg said:

It does need 10 years, and about another 100bn of extra tax/less spending. It can't magic the latter though, hence all they can do is move the balls around in the least shit way possible.

Labour supporters mostly say that they're doing their best. Tory and Reform supporters seem to have forgotten the last 14 years. Everyone else seems to realise you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, although they could have made a better stab at it than they have to date. 

Yep, everyone wants everything but don`t want to pay for it so until then its just shuffling money from one place to the other

[Turkish]

40 minutes ago, egg said:

It does need 10 years, and about another 100bn of extra tax/less spending. It can't magic the latter though, hence all they can do is move the balls around in the least shit way possible.

Labour supporters mostly say that they're doing their best. Tory and Reform supporters seem to have forgotten the last 14 years. Everyone else seems to realise you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, although they could have made a better stab at it than they have to date. 

How can it be a new broom then?

[Whitey Grandad]

49 minutes ago, egg said:

As I've said, they've had a shocker, but it still doesn't alter the relevance of them having inherited a shit show. 

That said, I'm glad they've limited fuel payments to just those who need it, found a way to increase defence spending, not given in to the waspi's. Sure, they've lost trust and confidence by eventually coming it their senses, but they've royally messed up with the farmer's, ditto NI, and although their PR is atrocious and the behaviour of some MP's is poor, let's not pretend it's anywhere near as bad as the swathes of people getting uber wealthy on the back of Tory deals and their general shadiness. 

Don’t you mean ‘just those who pissed and gambled away all their money and made no provisions for their later years’ ?

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

How can it be a new broom then?

It can make for example politically difficult decisions that the Tories often can’t without being hammered around cutting 15% off NHS England’s budget, changing the CEO to someone with an innovation background and bringing it much closer to the DoH, reducing bed blocking and expanding community provision.

Something Hunt wanted to do for years but knew the political impact. Streeting is one of the most able ministers and shows up some of their other wallies. Starmer needs to have a bit of reshuffle in the autumn I think.

[AlexLaw76]

58 minutes ago, egg said:

Indeed, my thoughts entirely. I'm not sure I understand LD' point re foreign aid. It doesn't matter that other parties may have done that, the fact is that Starmer has reacted quickly and sensibly in the light of Donny's lunacy. 

It'll be interesting how they navigate the financial impact of NI increases. Issues galore will unfold there. 

Donnys lunacy has been a long time coming. For decades Europe has contracted out defence of the continent to the USA, so other spending can take place in areas that can be just baffling.

The situation where a collective group or rich nations is worried about a country with the GDP compared to Italy is embarrassing. That is because all of our armed service are a shambles, and it is about time we all spent a bit more. However make no mistake .2% is no where near enough of an increase, but a good start.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, egg said:

although their PR is atrocious

Agree their communication has been poor but also need to factor in you have opposition established PR in media relentlessly attacking. They don’t care about news or truth just want everyone to feel shit about Labour.

Think there is very little optimism anywhere politically given the state of the world. Natural to want govt to make your life better but reality is it isn’t happening for many anywhere. We have all got used to standard of living rising but that ain’t happening for foreseeable future. 

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Donnys lunacy has been a long time coming. For decades Europe has contracted out defence of the continent to the USA, so other spending can take place in areas that can be just baffling.

The situation where a collective group or rich nations is worried about a country with the GDP compared to Italy is embarrassing. That is because all of our armed service are a shambles, and it is about time we all spent a bit more. However make no mistake .2% is no where near enough of an increase, but a good start.

You have a point about complacency in defence that needs fixing but Russia don’t actually pose a threat in reality…..for now

I don’t have faith that increase in defence spending won’t get largely wasted on contracts that suit companies as seen first hand MOD paying contractors huge day rates for sitting around doing fuck all

[egg]

37 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Don’t you mean ‘just those who pissed and gambled away all their money and made no provisions for their later years’ ?

I mean that not every old Doris needs, or should feel entitled to, free cash every year. I have many elderly neighbours. Not one of them needs the fuel allowance. My mum messaged me moaning about it when she was in the States on holiday. These people don't need free money. Stupid of labour to promise to keep it, but fair play to them for sifting the needy from the greedy. 

[egg]

12 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Donnys lunacy has been a long time coming. For decades Europe has contracted out defence of the continent to the USA, so other spending can take place in areas that can be just baffling.

The situation where a collective group or rich nations is worried about a country with the GDP compared to Italy is embarrassing. That is because all of our armed service are a shambles, and it is about time we all spent a bit more. However make no mistake .2% is no where near enough of an increase, but a good start.

I agree re complacency. Reliance on the US for so long was daft, ditto reliance on Russia for gas. Europe needed a wake up call and Donny has done that, but done it in a ridiculous way. 

The GDP comparison point is a bit misleading and compares apples with cabbages. Our GDP buys us overpriced military gear from the US with a shit pound. It doesn't go as far as it should or once did. We also don't produce much. Russia's cash stretches so much further buying from North Korea and god knows where, and they have the ability to produce much more than us, and probably the rest of Europe. 

[Gloucester Saint]

21 minutes ago, egg said:

I agree re complacency. Reliance on the US for so long was daft, ditto reliance on Russia for gas. Europe needed a wake up call and Donny has done that, but done it in a ridiculous way. 

The GDP comparison point is a bit misleading and compares apples with cabbages. Our GDP buys us overpriced military gear from the US with a shit pound. It doesn't go as far as it should or once did. We also don't produce much. Russia's cash stretches so much further buying from North Korea and god knows where, and they have the ability to produce much more than us, and probably the rest of Europe. 

Could be a good boost for the SW economy. Although we’ve got to get the universities shrugging off activists against the arms industry and Palestinian protestors because we need the drones and other technology. Difference is now that we will be storing more of what we produce as a proportion vs exporting to Israel and Saudi, although still doing plenty of that too. 

Need to upgrade the Babcock run facilities though - anyone who has been to nearby Ashchurch here and seen the state of that will know what I mean. State of the art kit will not last long in crumbling asbestos sheds. 

[Whitey Grandad]

35 minutes ago, egg said:

I mean that not every old Doris needs, or should feel entitled to, free cash every year. I have many elderly neighbours. Not one of them needs the fuel allowance. My mum messaged me moaning about it when she was in the States on holiday. These people don't need free money. Stupid of labour to promise to keep it, but fair play to them for sifting the needy from the greedy. 

It’s not free money. These pensioners have made contributions over their working lives. I have had many friends, colleagues and relatives who never even lived long enough to receive a state pension.

To describe pensioners as either needy or greedy is deeply insulting. Those whom you describe as ‘needy’ have not made their own provision for their old age. Those whom you call ‘greedy’ have made sacrifices when younger just to be punished for doing so now. Why not describe it as taking from the thrifty to give to the shifty?

The fuel allowance was part of the state pension. Removing it amounts to a cut of over 3%. By all means add it to the basic pension when it would be subject to Income Tax but in no way is it a ‘free gift’.

In any case, UK pensions are among the lowest in the industrialised world. Successive governments have recognised this and encouraged people and employers to make their own provisions for their old age. Having done so pensioners are seen as a source of ‘free money’.

Why shouldn’t your Mum treat herself to a holiday wherever she chooses? Attitudes such as you display here are despicable.