The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[egg]

11 minutes ago, Turkish said:

That’s bang on. Tories were shit but labour aren’t exactly covering themselves in glory this weird rhetoric one side good other side bad and you can’t say anything negative about “your side” or good about the opposition is playground stuff 

Yep. I'm an unashamed lib dem who didn't vote for either so just say what I see. Labour inherited a mess, but have arguably made it worse with their financial decisions. I think we'll do well to avoid a difficult recession this year or early next, and there's a danger that of Torie esque spending cuts to help stop borrowing and the interest bil spiralling.

[The Kraken]

I voted Labour. First time I’ve voted for them since Blair. I think the best that could be said is that they’ve had a poor start and their PR has been shambolic. I’d currently vote for them again if there was an election tomorrow as the alternative is pretty horrifying.

As said, the employers NI raise was stupid. Labour did it because they campaigned on “we won’t raise your taxes”. It got them a crushing election win and painted them right into a corner. They may have lost some votes but they should’ve had the honesty to say “the Tories’ cuts are unfounded and unsustainable, we’ll reverse them and put that money into public services”. I also think the way the fuel allowance was taken away was shockingly handled (even though I think fuel allowance should be means tested in some way).

Crap start from the reds no doubt. But we’re not even at half time yet, plenty of time to turn it around.

[Challenger]

16 hours ago, Turkish said:

Tried this stuff it's utter crap, lost it's shine straight away and after six months it started showing all the cracks .

[Lord Duckhunter]

Labour inherited a tricky economic situation and have proceeded to make it worse. They lied to the country that their manifesto was “fully costed” and apart from VAT on private schools, wouldn’t be raising taxes. To get round this ridiculous corner they boxed themselves into, they raised the worst tax possible. Killing what business confidence there was stone dead. The triple whammy of NI raise, Minimum wage increase & Rayners employment law changes coming down the line, have cost jobs and will continue to do so. 
 

It’s not going to get better for them anytime soon. Market forces will force them to change course & they will also have to ditch Rachel from accounts, and corruption allegations will eventually do for the Anti corruption minister. 

 

 

[trousers]

18 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Crap start from the reds no doubt. But we’re not even at half time yet, plenty of time to turn it around.

Cripes... I thought you were talking about Saints' season there for a moment.... 😂

[badgerx16]

20 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Crap start from the reds no doubt. But we’re not even at half time yet, plenty of time to turn it around.

But are there any decent options on the bench ?

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 hours ago, trousers said:

Cripes... I thought you were talking about Saints' season there for a moment.... 😂

The country's doomed if it's like our season. 🙂

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Labour inherited a tricky economic situation and have proceeded to make it worse. They lied to the country that their manifesto was “fully costed” and apart from VAT on private schools, wouldn’t be raising taxes. To get round this ridiculous corner they boxed themselves into, they raised the worst tax possible. Killing what business confidence there was stone dead. The triple whammy of NI raise, Minimum wage increase & Rayners employment law changes coming down the line, have cost jobs and will continue to do so. 
 

It’s not going to get better for them anytime soon. Market forces will force them to change course & they will also have to ditch Rachel from accounts, and corruption allegations will eventually do for the Anti corruption minister. 

 

 

Speaking of which... 

[hypochondriac]

Well this isn't happening then. 

[Turkish]

6 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Speaking of which... 

the minister for corruption resigns over allegations of corruption. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[hypochondriac]

In other hilarious news. Starmer is getting desperate. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

8 hours ago, Turkish said:

the minister for corruption resigns over allegations of corruption. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

That’s two now, one because of a fraud conviction and now this one. 
 

Media now digging around this and according to Michael Crick (that far right loon), this story is getting worse for our “Government of service”. 
 

If he’s right, there will be a by-election. Perhaps they could hold it on the same day as the one theyll call after their MP chinned a voter. 
 

“The Tulip Siddiq story shows
astonishingly poor judgement on Starmer's part - he was alerted to problems with her by C4 News in 2017 & several of his constituents write to him as their MP complain.  I'm afraid she will have to quit as an MP as well.” 
 

 

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That’s two now, one because of a fraud conviction and now this one. 
 

Media now digging around this and according to Michael Crick (that far right loon), this story is getting worse for our “Government of service”. 
 

If he’s right, there will be a by-election. Perhaps they could hold it on the same day as the one theyll call after their MP chinned a voter. 
 

“The Tulip Siddiq story shows
astonishingly poor judgement on Starmer's part - he was alerted to problems with her by C4 News in 2017 & several of his constituents write to him as their MP complain.  I'm afraid she will have to quit as an MP as well.” 
 

 

It’s just this countries far right media. Starmer needs 5 years before we can say anything negative about the government 

[whelk]

Inflation is plummeting you ungrateful bastards 

[Gloucester Saint]

Just informed by someone very senior in economics who is ITK and independent that Brexit has shrunk the UK economy by 6% and that’s without impacts from Covid and the NI rises.

The elephant is still in the room economically.

Edited January 15 by Gloucester Saint

[SotonianWill]

Starmer is exceptionally good at PMQs. The contrast between himself and Badenoch is astounding. 

[egg]

25 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Just informed by someone very senior in economics who is ITK and independent that Brexit has shrunk the UK economy by 6% and that’s without impacts from Covid and the NI rises.

The elephant is still in the room economically.

That's a phenomenal number, but not surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if COVID has knocked off half of that again. The NI rises will be more damaging than people imagine. 

[egg]

16 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

Starmer is exceptionally good at PMQs. The contrast between himself and Badenoch is astounding. 

Yep. He was a phenomenal lawyer and very quick minded. That's what sets him apart from others at the despatch box. 

[whelk]

Starmer can’t believe his luck having to face Badenoch. She is so stilted and you can see his confidence and comfort swatting back her attacks that never land. She really is just not a public speaker. And laughable she is trying to make that pacific island thing an issue. Stop listening to the morons in your party and try and seem credible opposition.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Starmer can’t believe his luck having to face Badenoch. She is so stilted and you can see his confidence and comfort swatting back her attacks that never land. She really is just not a public speaker. And laughable she is trying to make that pacific island thing an issue. Stop listening to the morons in your party and try and seem credible opposition.

The Chagos Islands negotiations were started by Liz Truss under international pressure over the UK's claim to them being against international Law. Labour merely drew things to a close.

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The Chagos Islands negotiations were started by Liz Truss under international pressure over the UK's claim to them being against international Law. Labour merely drew things to a close.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the Tories are alleging that its a poor deal (financially) rather than saying a deal should not be happening at all. (?)

Edited January 15 by trousers

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the Tories are alleging that its a poor deal (financially) rather than saying a deal should not be happening at all. (?)

I think that Trump is yanking their chain.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Yep. He was a phenomenal lawyer and very quick minded. That's what sets him apart from others at the despatch box. 

He is - he's very competent.  He should probably dump Reeves to sweep the bad PR under the carpet and start afresh.  He could also do with someone likeable in his cabinet he can send to do the TV rounds, but he prioritised 'seriousness' in his cabinet to be effective against the "Buffon" tories in the election.

[Weston Super Saint]

24 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

He is - he's very competent.  He should probably dump Reeves to sweep the bad PR under the carpet and start afresh.  He could also do with someone likeable in his cabinet he can send to do the TV rounds, but he prioritised 'seriousness' in his cabinet to be effective against the "Buffon" tories in the election.

Didn't he just do that, what, six months ago?

How many start afreshes will there be?

[hypochondriac]

35 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

He is - he's very competent.  He should probably dump Reeves to sweep the bad PR under the carpet and start afresh.  He could also do with someone likeable in his cabinet he can send to do the TV rounds, but he prioritised 'seriousness' in his cabinet to be effective against the "Buffon" tories in the election.

So competent that you are calling for the removal of his Chancellor after six months in charge. Is that a sign of competence? 

[whelk]

45 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

He should probably dump Reeves to sweep the bad PR under the carpet and start afresh

In other words be a weak as piss leader and show no loyalty to his team?

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

He is - he's very competent.  He should probably dump Reeves to sweep the bad PR under the carpet and start afresh.  He could also do with someone likeable in his cabinet he can send to do the TV rounds, but he prioritised 'seriousness' in his cabinet to be effective against the "Buffon" tories in the election.

No one has a steadier pair of hands than Buffon.

Sorry.🙂

[Gloucester Saint]

5 hours ago, egg said:

That's a phenomenal number, but not surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if COVID has knocked off half of that again. The NI rises will be more damaging than people imagine. 

That was an average as well, some regions up to summer of 2016 were growing faster and all of the political wrangling, uncertainty and turmoil which followed even before COVID and the lockdowns, Truss and anything have/haven’t done has screwed investment confidence and the huge visa rises and health surcharges imposed by Braverman which Labour is far too slow to roll back has totally deterred incoming exceptional talent in AI, hi-tech and the sciences. It takes decades to get those pipelines going again with domestic only and then they’ve got to want to stay when you have!

Elon Musk is a total nutcase but even he can see the folly judging by his battles with the GOP over their high skill visas of what Braverman and Farage wanted. 

Edited January 15 by Gloucester Saint

[badgerx16]

6 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Just informed by someone very senior in economics who is ITK and independent that Brexit has shrunk the UK economy by 6% and that’s without impacts from Covid and the NI rises.

The elephant is still in the room economically.

So this, from 2016, was not Project Fear;

https://www.statista.com/statistics/567973/effect-of-brexit-on-real-gdp-in-the-uk/

 

[Gloucester Saint]

4 hours ago, whelk said:

In other words be a weak as piss leader and show no loyalty to his team?

Won’t happen. Tulip whatshername going means Torsten Bell gets closer to the policy levers in the Treasury and that’s a good thing.

[Tamesaint]

13 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

 

 

 

Ignore 

Edited January 15 by Tamesaint

[Tamesaint]

Tories lile Badenoch criticising Labour for ministerial impropriety is a bit like Tommy Fourpast criticising Aaron Ramsdale for his goalkeeping. 

[macca155]

On 13/01/2025 at 19:31, The Kraken said:

I voted Labour. First time I’ve voted for them since Blair. I think the best that could be said is that they’ve had a poor start and their PR has been shambolic. I’d currently vote for them again if there was an election tomorrow as the alternative is pretty horrifying.

As said, the employers NI raise was stupid. Labour did it because they campaigned on “we won’t raise your taxes”. It got them a crushing election win and painted them right into a corner. They may have lost some votes but they should’ve had the honesty to say “the Tories’ cuts are unfounded and unsustainable, we’ll reverse them and put that money into public services”. I also think the way the fuel allowance was taken away was shockingly handled (even though I think fuel allowance should be means tested in some way).

Crap start from the reds no doubt. But we’re not even at half time yet, plenty of time to turn it around.

Well I've voted Labour in every General Election since 1979. Think things are bad now, try the horror of Thatcher. I would do so again as the alternative is still too ghastly to even contemplate.

However I do concur with what you say. They boxed them selves into a corner with some daft manifesto commitments, but every party does that. Reform would repay all student loans and deport most of our NHS workers.

Long road ahead

[Turkish]

So now we are going to have five new equiries into grooming gangs

Bit of a U turn given i only a week ago Starmer said that this was all far right noise?

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So now we are going to have five new equiries into grooming gangs

Bit of a U turn given i only a week ago Starmer said that this was all far right noise?

It's a half way house, and I'm still waiting for the Tories to explain why a national enquiry has only become necessary since they left power and Musk piped up. All of this took place on their watch. 

[hypochondriac]

57 minutes ago, egg said:

It's a half way house, and I'm still waiting for the Tories to explain why a national enquiry has only become necessary since they left power and Musk piped up. All of this took place on their watch. 

The tories were wrong not to have an enquiry. That can't be changed now, the people in power now need one.

When I posted the shocking details the other week which I'd heard for the first time, some people were saying it was unnecessary and insinuating that I was racist for having done so. It seems that Labour have now bowed to the pressure to some extent and started a process to hopefully get some sort of justice for these people and to prevent further victims. If nothing else, for the first time a Labour home secretary has used the words Pakistani heritage grooming gangs which proves they exist and suggests they are actually something distinct and not a far right conspiracy theory. 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, egg said:

It's a half way house, and I'm still waiting for the Tories to explain why a national enquiry has only become necessary since they left power and Musk piped up. All of this took place on their watch. 

 

46 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The tories were wrong not to have an enquiry. That can't be changed now, the people in power now need one.

When I posted the shocking details the other week which I'd heard for the first time, some people were saying it was unnecessary and insinuating that I was racist for having done so. It seems that Labour have now bowed to the pressure to some extent and started a process to hopefully get some sort of justice for these people and to prevent further victims. If nothing else, for the first time a Labour home secretary has used the words Pakistani heritage grooming gangs which proves they exist and suggests they are actually something distinct and not a far right conspiracy theory. 

Don’t disagree about the Tories.
 

however For the second time in his time in power Starmer has blamed the far right when things haven’t gone his way. He needs to start changing his mantra as he’s going to start losing a lot of his white, working class support. They should ah r got the message with Brexit vote that the average working class person is getting sick to death of the constant screams of racism at everything. Britian is probably one of the most welcoming countries in the world yet also the most racist if you believe all the shit spouted by some people 

[egg]

49 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The tories were wrong not to have an enquiry. That can't be changed now, the people in power now need one.

When I posted the shocking details the other week which I'd heard for the first time, some people were saying it was unnecessary and insinuating that I was racist for having done so. It seems that Labour have now bowed to the pressure to some extent and started a process to hopefully get some sort of justice for these people and to prevent further victims. If nothing else, for the first time a Labour home secretary has used the words Pakistani heritage grooming gangs which proves they exist and suggests they are actually something distinct and not a far right conspiracy theory. 

We know there's a problem. Professor Jay investigated and reported over almost a 9 year period. Why do we need more than her final report, and implementation of the recommendations? Jay herself says we just need action, and yet more enquiries surely delays action? 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

 

Don’t disagree about the Tories.
 

however For the second time in his time in power Starmer has blamed the far right when things haven’t gone his way. He needs to start changing his mantra as he’s going to start losing a lot of his white, working class support. They should ah r got the message with Brexit vote that the average working class person is getting sick to death of the constant screams of racism at everything. Britian is probably one of the most welcoming countries in the world yet also the most racist if you believe all the shit spouted by some people 

Although I think the messaging from Starmer is naive and unnecessary, fundamentally he's right that this issue is being politicised, and people seem to want to focus on the race of the perpetrators rather than just getting on and taking the already recommended actions to reduce the prospect of more kids being violated. 

The focus needs to shift to action rather than blame.

[Turkish]

15 minutes ago, egg said:

Although I think the messaging from Starmer is naive and unnecessary, fundamentally he's right that this issue is being politicised, and people seem to want to focus on the race of the perpetrators rather than just getting on and taking the already recommended actions to reduce the prospect of more kids being violated. 

The focus needs to shift to action rather than blame.

He is right it is being politicised, but it's the latest in a long line of "far right" "racist" narrative coming from politicians. If you listen to that interview that Whelk shared the police were scared to investigate it because they were worried they were going to be called racist. If ridiculous that this seems to be more of a concern than actually prosecuting people of hideous crimes. But that's the society that's been created here. 

Edited January 17 by Turkish

[hypochondriac]

20 minutes ago, egg said:

We know there's a problem. Professor Jay investigated and reported over almost a 9 year period. Why do we need more than her final report, and implementation of the recommendations? Jay herself says we just need action, and yet more enquiries surely delays action? 

Because the only investigation so far has been about child sexual abuse in general, not touching on gang related sexual abuse, not mentioning anything about cultural issues that has contributed to this and there's little confidence that this type of abuse will be eradicated if it isn't fully investigated. The home secretary has now said there is a problem with Pakistani heritage grooming gangs. This hasn't been investigated before. The recommendations from previous broader enquiries need to be implemented alongside a focused enquiry, not least because many of the people involved are still in positions of power and there are fears that this sort of thing is continuing. 

[hypochondriac]

20 minutes ago, egg said:

Although I think the messaging from Starmer is naive and unnecessary, fundamentally he's right that this issue is being politicised, and people seem to want to focus on the race of the perpetrators rather than just getting on and taking the already recommended actions to reduce the prospect of more kids being violated. 

The focus needs to shift to action rather than blame.

It needs both clearly to ensure it's very unlikely to happen again. 

[egg]

28 minutes ago, Turkish said:

He is right it is being politicised, but it's the latest in a long line of "far right" "racist" narrative coming from politicians. If you listen to that interview that Whelk shared the police were scared to investigate it because they were worried they were going to be called racist. If ridiculous that this seems to be more of a concern than actually prosecuting people of hideous crimes. But that's the society that's been created here. 

I don't disagree with that, but, where does highlighting the ethnicity of the perpetrators, and having enquiry on top of enquiry, take us?

Is the solution to an obvious problem to a) retain focus on the already established problem, or b) implement the recommendations made after years of enquiry and hard work by Professor Jay? 

[egg]

16 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It needs both clearly to ensure it's very unlikely to happen again. 

There's been enough delay imo. Vulnerable kids do not need that. They need action. More enquiries just get in the way of the solution. 

Devils advocate questions. You say that we need blame. What will blame achieve that is positive? Is there a danger that it'll throw fuel on the fire of racial divides

[trousers]

19 minutes ago, egg said:

There's been enough delay imo. Vulnerable kids do not need that. They need action. More enquiries just get in the way of the solution. 

Genuine non-partisan question: why isn't it possible to act upon the recommendation of 'enquiry A' whilst carrying out 'enquiry B', given the enquiries would be  covering different aspects?

Edited January 17 by trousers

[egg]

40 minutes ago, trousers said:

Genuine non-partisan question: why isn't it possible to act upon the recommendation of 'enquiry A' whilst carrying out 'enquiry B', given the enquiries would be  covering different aspects?

That was my initial thought. I moved away from that as I think they'd want to leave decision making to any new enquiry, but perhaps leave them to use Jay's proposals for discussion and consideration.

I'm still in the "what more does the enquiry" hope to achieve camp. We have had years of enquiry, solid recommendations and need to implement them. We then need ongoing review, accountability, and more action when needed. 

 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

There's been enough delay imo. Vulnerable kids do not need that. They need action. More enquiries just get in the way of the solution. 

Devils advocate questions. You say that we need blame. What will blame achieve that is positive? Is there a danger that it'll throw fuel on the fire of racial divides

That consideration is what has caused half the problems in the first place. Now that those in charge has admitted that there is an issue with rape gangs of Pakistani Heritage, there has to be an investigation that establishes the extent of the problem, the cultural issues that have led to this problem, how much of the problem has been fuelled by animus towards females of another race etc etc. We need an unvarnished and unbiased investigation or it fails the victims and potentially creates future victims. 

Having an investigation of this type whilst implementing the recommendations  of the broader investigation regarding child sexual abuse should not be difficult to do. It should cause no delay at all. Regarding blame, it's more about accountability. There are names of council members and politicians who turned a blind eye and have simply moved elsewhere with promotions or with nothing attached to them. Rather like the Post Office, a full enquiry will partly be about holding these people accountable and getting some justice for the victims where many guilty parties have still not been brought to justice. 

Edited January 17 by hypochondriac

[CB Fry]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Genuine non-partisan question: why isn't it possible to act upon the recommendation of 'enquiry A' whilst carrying out 'enquiry B', given the enquiries would be  covering different aspects?

The thing that makes no sense whatsoever is the value that the Musk-ites and the populists and the opportunists are putting on a "public enquiry". 

If back on, say. August 1st 2024 Kier Starmer had announced a full public enquiry into Grooming Gangs there is absolutely zero way that Musk or Rupert Lowe or Guido Fawkes or GB News or all these other divs would have been dancing in the streets about what a great move that was, well done Kier great job.

At best they wouldn't care much and at worst they would just say it's all just a platform for an establishment cover up. Years of chat and a report that pushes action into the long grass, another pointless government talking shop, jobs for the boys and a whitewash.

As we know, the last government did next to nothing with the output of the last enquiry.

If people really think a future enquiry is going to result in lots of brown people plus "do-gooder" social workers/evil council staff/other people they don't like are all going to get banged up, humilated, lined up and shot etc etc then they are going to be disappointed. 

Post Office enquiry - bad people banged up so far: zero. Maybe come 2027 there might be some criminal cases. 

The solutions to the problems in these areas are far to complicated for the twitterati to ever truly care about solving. All I can see is a load of opportunist posturing from people pretending that it's only them that care about child abuse.

 

[aintforever]

25 minutes ago, egg said:

We have had years of enquiry, solid recommendations and need to implement them. We then need ongoing review, accountability, and more action when needed. 

 

There was some Police chief on the radio the other day saying that exact thing, basically echoing what Alexis Jay, the person who carried out the first review, said.

The short-comings that led to what went on have been identified and the police have already made changes, we just need to get on and implement the findings.

[hypochondriac]

22 minutes ago, egg said:

That was my initial thought. I moved away from that as I think they'd want to leave decision making to any new enquiry, but perhaps leave them to use Jay's proposals for discussion and consideration.

I'm still in the "what more does the enquiry" hope to achieve camp. We have had years of enquiry, solid recommendations and need to implement them. We then need ongoing review, accountability, and more action when needed. 

 

How many of the recommendations from the previous child sex enquiry (which had very little to do with rape gangs) focused on the specific issues from so called grooming gangs? Things like the networks of largely Pakistani heritage men passing victims around, the racial abuse the girls suffered which gives an insight into the motivations for the attacks, the nervousness police had about being seen as racist so that nothing was done, the way the girls were dismissed as slags or similar by police chiefs and those in authority? The way that councils were being run with block voting to ensure cover ups continued and the way that some communities closed ranks to protect their own? 

How many of the existing recommendations address these issues to the extent that we can have confidence that something on this scale cannot happen again?