The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Link?

Would be hypocritical of me to condemn that

I'm not condemning it, simply suggesting that that's one part of why someone may refer to her as vile. Certainly very hypocritical as a public figure and MP.

Subjective opinion as assume she hasn’t gone on record saying that?

Well yes you could argue that but dismissing it because a local investigation will get things done more quickly is quite obviously a complete bullshit nonsense answer which is what she stated publicly about it. Some Labour MPs have also broken ranks and called for one so it's not a partisan issue.

I don’t know too much about her really but working class Labour women like her and Rayner seems to get at lot of blokes frothing. 
Has Farage ever spent nights by sides of victims in hospital?

I don't like her. It hasn't got anything to do with her being working class or a woman but it does have a lot to do with her disliking men, dismissing their concerns as lesser because of their sex and her contribution towards the general coarsening of politics with her language and demeanour. I don't think Rayner is similarly unpleasant, she just seems pretty thick and unqualified for the position she finds herself in but a lot of MPs meet that description. 

 

International Men’s Day supporter and Guardian contributor, Ally Fogg, added his voice to the debate on Friday:

“Phillips is neither ignorant nor stupid. She knows full well what International Men’s Day is for, why it exists, and what the related issues are. She knew full well that in laughing at the suggestion that Parliament might need a specific occasion to discuss issues like those above from a gendered perspective, she is in fact laughing at male suicide. She is laughing at men’s unnecessarily early deaths.”

In amongst all of this furore, Phillips made a statement that doesn’t appear to be have made its way into the media. She said: “I hate fools who think men don’t have equality”.

 

Edited January 13 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

18 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Yet another completely misguided post. You seem to live in a parallel universe. The only thing I agree with is about Starmer. Agree with his policies or not, he is a decent man who is genuinely trying to improve things after the car crash of the last 14 years. Let’s judge him after 5 years rather than right at the beginning of his tenure. He did a great job in sorting out problems within the CPS. He faces much bigger problems now.

The idea that we should withhold judgement on Starmer for five years is absolutely hilarious. We should hold our politicians to the same standards regardless of political affiliation.  

[AlexLaw76]

22 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The idea that we should withhold judgement on Starmer for five years is absolutely hilarious. We should hold our politicians to the same standards regardless of political affiliation.  

Pretty soon the lettuce will re appear to see if it can outlive the Chancellor 

[whelk]

28 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The idea that we should withhold judgement on Starmer for five years is absolutely hilarious. We should hold our politicians to the same standards regardless of political affiliation.  

No one will withhold judgement but pinning every bit of bleak economic news or poll on him as if a sign that they are clueless is equally silly. When either party bangs on about growth it just sounds hollow bs. As said many a time on here economies are big complex beasts driven by so many external factors. No one party has simple fixes and they run in cycles largely. In additional global factors play huge part now, we can’t just spin up a manufacturing industry. Big issue is always the skills we don’t have but similarly like empires crumbling in the past, we have had a comfortable time and largely don’t have discipline of less fortunate societies who are more willing to put the hard graft in, illustrated by how many we now have on sickness benefit. The solution to that isn’t just cancel benefits as society then fractures further. 
 

They (the fucking stupid electorate) made their Brexit bed to fuck growth and need to lie in it. 

Edited January 13 by whelk

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Pretty soon the lettuce will re appear to see if it can outlive the Chancellor 

Someone will always feed the halfwits

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

I don't like her. It hasn't got anything to do with her being working class or a woman but it does have a lot to do with her disliking men, dismissing their concerns as lesser because of their sex and her contribution towards the general coarsening of politics with her language and demeanour. I don't think Rayner is similarly unpleasant, she just seems pretty thick and unqualified for the position she finds herself in but a lot of MPs meet that description. 

 

International Men’s Day supporter and Guardian contributor, Ally Fogg, added his voice to the debate on Friday:

“Phillips is neither ignorant nor stupid. She knows full well what International Men’s Day is for, why it exists, and what the related issues are. She knew full well that in laughing at the suggestion that Parliament might need a specific occasion to discuss issues like those above from a gendered perspective, she is in fact laughing at male suicide. She is laughing at men’s unnecessarily early deaths.”

In amongst all of this furore, Phillips made a statement that doesn’t appear to be have made its way into the media. She said: “I hate fools who think men don’t have equality”.

 

Oh please, don't be such a drama queen. She was clearly laughing at the idea that men don't have the opportunity to raise issues, not the issues themselves.

If you have to pretend to be outraged at least get your facts right.

[Gloucester Saint]

58 minutes ago, whelk said:

No one will withhold judgement but pinning every bit of bleak economic news or poll on him as if a sign that they are clueless is equally silly. When either party bangs on about growth it just sounds hollow bs. As said many a time on here economies are big complex beasts driven by so many external factors. No one party has simple fixes and they run in cycles largely. In additional global factors play huge part now, we can’t just spin up a manufacturing industry. Big issue is always the skills we don’t have but similarly like empires crumbling in the past, we have had a comfortable time and largely don’t have discipline of less fortunate societies who are more willing to put the hard graft in, illustrated by how many we now have on sickness benefit. The solution to that isn’t just cancel benefits as society then fractures further. 
 

They (the fucking stupid electorate) made their Brexit bed to fuck growth and need to lie in it. 

Excellent post Whelk. There’s far too much from all of the parties, not just the Tories but Reform and Labour, of cake-ism.

China is an unnecessarily risky route to be taking, yes, it might provide a short-medium boost but many of its activities and policies don’t pass simple due diligence tests (as SFC found with Gao) and look at the report on Shein and slavery today.

AI has more potential but still plenty of risks. We can’t ignore it either but a lot of work to do to make it beneficial in creating better careers and not being the next mining/steel wipeout for another round of Red Wall constituencies.

Single Market = partners who pass due diligence, that we know, yes there are still risks (German dependence on Russian gas until recently) but it’s by far the lowest risk/highest reward as an economic and business proposition. More control of our borders like we had pre-2016 with people movement by European cultures like ours. If we hadn’t already been in, it would clearly the best option and for the right wingers on here, they can correctly boast it was Maggie’s idea.

Win-win, unless you are Farage, Tice, Lowe and Candy.

Edited January 13 by Gloucester Saint

[Lord Duckhunter]

Jess Phillips called George Galloway a “rape apologist”, told Abbott to Fuck off and said she wanted to stab Jezza in the front, and we’re supposed to feel sorry for her because she got a bit of clog back? 

Edited January 13 by Lord Duckhunter

[Gloucester Saint]

14 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Jess Phillips called George Galloway a “rape apologist”, told Abbott to Fuck off and said she wanted to stab Jezza in the front, and we’re supposed to feel sorry for her because she got a bit of clog back? 

I don’t like Phillips that much either for some of the reasons you’ve identified above, and others, but two wrongs don’t make a right. What Musk said wasnt evidenced whatsoever.
Musk ought to do better with the following he has and the extremes some of them will go to (as we see with MAGA) - they both should do better as whilst I can’t stand Corbyn, the comment about him was a disgrace. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Starmer talking up the freedoms offered by Brexit in the field of AI. 
 

“We are now in control of our regulatory regime. So we will go our own way on this.”

[sadoldgit]

14 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

I don’t like Phillips that much either for some of the reasons you’ve identified above, and others, but two wrongs don’t make a right. What Musk said wasnt evidenced whatsoever.
Musk ought to do better with the following he has and the extremes some of them will go to (as we see with MAGA) - they both should do better as whilst I can’t stand Corbyn, the comment about him was a disgrace. 

You don’t have to like Jess Phillips to appreciate the work she has done on behalf of woman who have been to victim to domestic violence. George Galloway is also a total scumbag and u don’t know why anyone would want to defend him.

 https://www.womensaid.org.uk/womens-aid-and-100-vawg-organisations-issue-letter-of-solidarity-with-jess-phillips-mp-following-far-right-and-misogynistic-attacks/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/sep/12/george-galloway-constituents-rape-comments

Edited January 13 by sadoldgit

[Gloucester Saint]

4 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

You don’t have to like Jess Phillips to appreciate the work she has done on behalf of woman who have been to victim to domestic violence. George Galloway is also a total scumbag and u don’t know why anyone would want to defend him.

 https://www.womensaid.org.uk/womens-aid-and-100-vawg-organisations-issue-letter-of-solidarity-with-jess-phillips-mp-following-far-right-and-misogynistic-attacks/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/sep/12/george-galloway-constituents-rape-comments

The achievements with women’s refuge and safety are considerable and well done to her those. I can’t stand Galloway but it’s still not the right behaviours for public life. Politicians and those with a large public voice like Musk need to be better in the language they use and accuracy/evidence of what they say.

[egg]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I don't like her. It hasn't got anything to do with her being working class or a woman but it does have a lot to do with her disliking men, dismissing their concerns as lesser because of their sex and her contribution towards the general coarsening of politics with her language and demeanour. I don't think Rayner is similarly unpleasant, she just seems pretty thick and unqualified for the position she finds herself in but a lot of MPs meet that description. 

 

International Men’s Day supporter and Guardian contributor, Ally Fogg, added his voice to the debate on Friday:

“Phillips is neither ignorant nor stupid. She knows full well what International Men’s Day is for, why it exists, and what the related issues are. She knew full well that in laughing at the suggestion that Parliament might need a specific occasion to discuss issues like those above from a gendered perspective, she is in fact laughing at male suicide. She is laughing at men’s unnecessarily early deaths.”

In amongst all of this furore, Phillips made a statement that doesn’t appear to be have made its way into the media. She said: “I hate fools who think men don’t have equality”.

 

Are you seriously claiming that the video shows her laughing at mention of men's suicide? Seems to me that, once again, you've spouted off, got it wrong, but haven't got the humility to acknowledge that you're wrong. 

[whelk]

47 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

whilst I can’t stand Corbyn, the comment about him was a disgrace. 

It was only a metaphor. Obviously you are not gammon but their outrage on flimsiest of things is amusing. The old sexist dinosaur Duckhunter getting told what to think and get outraged by Navratilova amongst others is also so funny.

Edited January 13 by whelk

[east-stand-nic]

3 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Yet another completely misguided post. You seem to live in a parallel universe. The only thing I agree with is about Starmer. Agree with his policies or not, he is a decent man who is genuinely trying to improve things after the car crash of the last 14 years. Let’s judge him after 5 years rather than right at the beginning of his tenure. He did a great job in sorting out problems within the CPS. He faces much bigger problems now.

You mean just as you gave Boris, Rishi and other in the Tory party the same 5 years before you were all over them? You really are a total and utter bozo.

[hypochondriac]

44 minutes ago, egg said:

Are you seriously claiming that the video shows her laughing at mention of men's suicide? Seems to me that, once again, you've spouted off, got it wrong, but haven't got the humility to acknowledge that you're wrong. 

Absolutely hilarious coming from you of all posters given your habit of misrepresenting something and then running away when challenged. Still waiting for your answer about if it's reasonable to ban people discussing the possibility of a Wuhan lab leak prior to 2023 by the way. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Gloucester Saint said:

The achievements with women’s refuge and safety are considerable and well done to her those. I can’t stand Galloway but it’s still not the right behaviours for public life. Politicians and those with a large public voice like Musk need to be better in the language they use and accuracy/evidence of what they say.

Also worth mentioning that those who are first to shout about Jo Cox are then the same ones using this sort of language and violent rhetoric. You can't have it both ways.

[sadoldgit]

30 minutes ago, east-stand-nic said:

You mean just as you gave Boris, Rishi and other in the Tory party the same 5 years before you were all over them? You really are a total and utter bozo.

Are you trying to rewrite history again? The Tory Party have been are car crash for 14 years and left this country in an awful state. Perhaps you were living abroad for much of that time so missed it? Either way, to conflate Starmer with the Tory Party just six months in is a stretch even for a conspiracy theorist like you. By the way, I didn’t start giving the Tories proper grief until the referendum, Brexit and thereafter, but as ever you don’t let the facts get in the way of a good old rant.

By the way, by getting likes from my Baby Reindeer you are in danger of becoming one yourself.

 

Edited January 13 by sadoldgit

[sadoldgit]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Also worth mentioning that those who are first to shout about Jo Cox are then the same ones using this sort of language and violent rhetoric. You can't have it both ways.

You seem to have an issue with rape. Even Assage said himself that it was “improbable” that he was smeared by the US secret services. If what the woman said is true, that is technically rape. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd1jgv3knnwo.amp

As for Jo Cox, she was murdered by a far right nutter, but well done for trying to conflate the two and muddy the waters over Galloway’s comments. We all know how you are the first to defend the actions of extreme nationalist, flag shagging nutters in this country whilst pretending not to be one of them.

[egg]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Absolutely hilarious coming from you of all posters given your habit of misrepresenting something and then running away when challenged. Still waiting for your answer about if it's reasonable to ban people discussing the possibility of a Wuhan lab leak prior to 2023 by the way. 

Running away?! Behave.

I have better things to do than continue a discussion ad infinitum with someone who clearly hasn't got anything better to do.

You were wrong on the COVID point, citing articles 2 or 3 years after the event. Yet again you couldn't accept you were wrong, but I ain't got the inclination to keep reminding of you of that so happily allowed you the last (wrong) word. 

And no, I won't carry this on cos not a discussion. You're wrong, it's obvious, but you can't/won't admit it.

I'm always willing to let you have the last word poppet, and you can have it on this issue too. 

[east-stand-nic]

24 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Are you trying to rewrite history again? The Tory Party have been are car crash for 14 years and left this country in an awful state. Perhaps you were living abroad for much of that time so missed it? Either way, to conflate Starmer with the Tory Party just six months in is a stretch even for a conspiracy theorist like you. By the way, I didn’t start giving the Tories proper grief until the referendum, Brexit and thereafter, but as ever you don’t let the facts get in the way of a good old rant.

By the way, by getting likes from my Baby Reindeer you are in danger of becoming one yourself.

 

Not what you said, but you know that, you are just squirming now like you always do when you get outed for being the most awful hypocrite.

[hypochondriac]

19 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

You seem to have an issue with rape. Even Assage said himself that it was “improbable” that he was smeared by the US secret services. If what the woman said is true, that is technically rape. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd1jgv3knnwo.amp

As for Jo Cox, she was murdered by a far right nutter, but well done for trying to conflate the two and muddy the waters over Galloway’s comments. We all know how you are the first to defend the actions of extreme nationalist, flag shagging nutters in this country whilst pretending not to be one of them.

I didn't mention Galloway you spanner. 

[hypochondriac]

18 minutes ago, egg said:

Running away?! Behave.

I have better things to do than continue a discussion ad infinitum with someone who clearly hasn't got anything better to do.

You were wrong on the COVID point, citing articles 2 or 3 years after the event. Yet again you couldn't accept you were wrong, but I ain't got the inclination to keep reminding of you of that so happily allowed you the last (wrong) word. 

And no, I won't carry this on cos not a discussion. You're wrong, it's obvious, but you can't/won't admit it.

I'm always willing to let you have the last word poppet, and you can have it on this issue too. 

You know that banning someone for merely discussing the possibility of a lab leak is draconian and unacceptable but you don't have the guts to admit that so you run away like I said. Pathetic. 

[hypochondriac]

4 hours ago, whelk said:

No one will withhold judgement but pinning every bit of bleak economic news or poll on him as if a sign that they are clueless is equally silly. When either party bangs on about growth it just sounds hollow bs. As said many a time on here economies are big complex beasts driven by so many external factors. No one party has simple fixes and they run in cycles largely. In additional global factors play huge part now, we can’t just spin up a manufacturing industry. Big issue is always the skills we don’t have but similarly like empires crumbling in the past, we have had a comfortable time and largely don’t have discipline of less fortunate societies who are more willing to put the hard graft in, illustrated by how many we now have on sickness benefit. The solution to that isn’t just cancel benefits as society then fractures further. 
 

They (the fucking stupid electorate) made their Brexit bed to fuck growth and need to lie in it. 

I'm not pinning every bit of economic news in him. I am saying that his government's choices are having a negative effect on an economy that was already shit. They're the ones that went on about bringing stability and the adults being in charge. It's been anything but stable so far. 

[Turkish]

15 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm not pinning every bit of economic news in him. I am saying that his government's choices are having a negative effect on an economy that was already shit. They're the ones that went on about bringing stability and the adults being in charge. It's been anything but stable so far. 

if people are accusing Liz Truss of crashing the economy with the policies she introduced in her few weeks in charge, which many people did, then it's not beyond the realms of possibility that in 6 months Labours policies may also have had a negative impact. But of course it would be ridiculous to suggest that in some peoples eyes. It's all still the fault of the evil Tories and we cant say anything bad about labour until 2030.

Edited January 13 by Turkish

[Turkish]

[Gloucester Saint]

2 hours ago, whelk said:

It was only a metaphor. Obviously you are not gammon but their outrage on flimsiest of things is amusing. The old sexist dinosaur Duckhunter getting told what to think and get outraged by Navratilova amongst others is also so funny.

Appreciate what you are saying but given the Cox, Amess and earlier Lib Dem fatal stabbings I just don’t want to see that language. The Navratilova things was amusing with Duck though, as if he’d normally take any notice of someone like that. 

[hypochondriac]

25 minutes ago, Turkish said:

if people are accusing Liz Truss of crashing the economy with the policies she introduced in her few weeks in charge, which many people did, then it's not beyond the realms of possibility that in 6 months Labours policies may also have had a negative impact. But of course it would be ridiculous to suggest that in some peoples eyes. It's all still the fault of the evil Tories and we cant say anything bad about labour until 2030.

Good point. Should we have given Lizz Truss 5 years before passing judgement? Was the woeful performance of the economy during her short tenure her fault and responsibility? Or was she simply screwed by her predecessor? 

[Gloucester Saint]

17 minutes ago, Turkish said:

if people are accusing Liz Truss of crashing the economy with the policies she introduced in her few weeks in charge, which many people did, then it's not beyond the realms of possibility that in 6 months Labours policies may also have had a negative impact. But of course it would be ridiculous to suggest that in some peoples eyes. It's all still the fault of the evil Tories and we cant say anything bad about labour until 2030.

Different circumstances - Truss could see the political winds and tried an IEA Hail Mary which failed spectacularly. What Starmer and Reeves has inherited is the worst post-war. Normally if a Tory government comes in, they get slightly better public services but slightly worse public services from Labour. Reverse that for Labour from Tory.

That’s true post-war, the most extreme example since then before this was Callaghan-Thatcher. What people are forgetting but I haven’t is how long that took to turn around. She came in May 1979, doubled VAT having said they wouldn’t, and the economy was struggling even worse than now, steel went to the wall, no Clyde style shipbuilding rescue packages, BL ailing and in huge debt. It wasn’t demonstrably better until the other side of the Falklands. Howe and her monetarist policies to get public debt under control were under huge fire even from most of their own party, especially the ‘wets’. 

The large tax cutting veteran right wingers wank off about every week in the fucking Telegraph or Mail didn’t happen until 1985 with Nigel Lawson when they could afford it.

The stagflation of the 1970s also bears some relation to now. Globally the economy is choppy, Trump doesn’t help with that but the one variable we could change straight away and restore 5-10% of national economic power is the Single Market.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Different circumstances - Truss could see the political winds and tried an IEA Hail Mary which failed spectacularly. What Starmer and Reeves has inherited is the worst post-war. Normally if a Tory government comes in, they get slightly better public services but slightly worse public services from Labour. Reverse that for Labour from Tory.

That’s true post-war, the most extreme example since then before this was Callaghan-Thatcher. What people are forgetting but I haven’t is how long that took to turn around. She came in May 1979, doubled VAT having said they wouldn’t, and the economy was struggling even worse than now, steel went to the wall, no Clyde style shipbuilding rescue packages, BL ailing and in huge debt. It wasn’t demonstrably better until the other side of the Falklands. Howe and her monetarist policies to get public debt under control were under huge fire even from most of their own party, especially the ‘wets’. 

The large tax cutting veteran right wingers wank off about every week in the fucking Telegraph or Mail didn’t happen until 1985 with Nigel Lawson when they could afford it.

The stagflation of the 1970s also bears some relation to now. Globally the economy is choppy, Trump doesn’t help with that but the one variable we could change straight away and restore 5-10% of national economic power is the Single Market.

Yep one is a evil, lying, self serving Tory the other is a lovely labour who are here to help everyone.

Point remains though, if Truss single handedly crashed the economy in less than two months than it's entirely possible the current performance is something to do with labour who have been here six months.

Edited January 13 by Turkish

[Gloucester Saint]

8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Yep one is an evil, lying, self serving Tory the other is a lovely labour who are here to help everyone.

Nope…one was taking a huge economic experiment to try to keep her and her party in power, putting the country second. Akin to Martin’s playing from the back experiment in the PL this season.

The other are people who are taking some decisions any government would find bloody difficult, even if they aren’t the ones I’d have chosen myself. Do you think any Labour government wants to cut departmental budgets by 5-10% on top of 14 years of reductions bar the protected areas. The Tories don’t like doing it despite the rhetoric in opposition but the Left will create hell for Reeves in the CSR. Have a look at Reform’s ‘waste and efficiency’ plans - they are bonkers and typical of people with no practical experience, but they’ll carry on promising everything with no way of finding it post-Single Market like they did during the referendum.

Have a look online at the reaction James Callaghan got at their conference in 1976 when they did.  

Edited January 13 by Gloucester Saint

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Nope…one was taking a huge economic experiment to try to keep her and her party in power, putting the country second.

The other are people who are taking some decisions any government would find bloody difficult, even if they aren’t the ones I’d have chosen myself. Do you think any Labour government wants to cut departmental budgets by 5-10% on top of 14 years of reductions bar the protected areas. The Tories don’t like doing it despite the rhetoric in opposition but the Left will create hell.

Have a look online at the reaction James Callaghan got at their conference in 1976 when they did.  

But it could have had something to do with it? They could have got it wrong.

[Gloucester Saint]

13 minutes ago, Turkish said:

But it could have had something to do with it? They could have got it wrong.

The NI Employers cut is not what I’d have done for example - I’d have reversed the employees NI cut as it was unfunded by Hunt - but the black hole couldn’t have been ignored.

The economy is not big enough to do what any of the main parties want to do to enable growth - China is another tangent - for me it’s obvious that re-joining the Single Market is the turbo boost needed, and France and Germany could do with the boost as well.

Trade deal with the US ain’t likely - the public DO NOT want US insurers tied in with the NHS and their animal welfare standards are woeful on food. 

Sadly they’ll battle on without wanting to re-open the Brexit Pandora’s Box - but the UK will carry on struggling for growth without it. Where the fuck Tice thinks the headroom is for massive tax cuts are is anyone’s guess. Thatcher only cut them when they could afford it later on.

Edited January 13 by Gloucester Saint

[egg]

40 minutes ago, Turkish said:

if people are accusing Liz Truss of crashing the economy with the policies she introduced in her few weeks in charge, which many people did, then it's not beyond the realms of possibility that in 6 months Labours policies may also have had a negative impact. But of course it would be ridiculous to suggest that in some peoples eyes. It's all still the fault of the evil Tories and we cant say anything bad about labour until 2030.

Labour's big mistake was refusing to reverse the damaging Tory NI reduction, and then passing the bill to employers. It was always going to have repercussions, and has.

And yep, people will keep banging on about the Tories, Truss included, killing the economy, because they did. 

Labour, for their part, were given a mountain to climb, but are trying to climb it the wrong way. 

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Labour's big mistake was refusing to reverse the damaging Tory NI reduction, and then passing the bill to employers. It was always going to have repercussions, and has.

And yep, people will keep banging on about the Tories, Truss included, killing the economy, because they did. 

Labour, for their part, were given a mountain to climb, but are trying to climb it the wrong way. 

Yeah, there’d have been a bit of shouty stuff from Hunt and Sunak at the budget statement, but anyone with half a brain knew we couldn’t afford that NI cut and it was sop to the morons in the ERG. Hunt didn’t have much political choice. Labour tied themselves up in knots with the employers/employees distinction and actually it’s dispersed already very low confidence.

Let’s be clear - Hypo, Duck and others - the Tories would have been reversing their own NI cut and raising income taxes, winter fuel allowance etc. 

[Turkish]

Just now, egg said:

Labour's big mistake was refusing to reverse the damaging Tory NI reduction, and then passing the bill to employers. It was always going to have repercussions, and has.

And yep, people will keep banging on about the Tories, Truss included, killing the economy, because they did. 

Labour, for their part, were given a mountain to climb, but are trying to climb it the wrong way. 

I dont think anyone ever said they didn't, but there seems to be this opinion that Labour are infallible when as you point out, they aren't. They've taken over a mess but also made significant mistakes themselves

[Gloucester Saint]

4 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I dont think anyone ever said they didn't, but there seems to be this opinion that Labour are infallible when as you point out, they aren't. They've taken over a mess but also made significant mistakes themselves

Yes, they have. But at the moment we’ve all got to hope they pick up and the country picks up. All of these dickhead calls for a GE - it ain’t happening and Badenoch would worsen it further. Have a look at the IFS assessment of Reform’s policies. Not pretty.

I think it’ll stabilise if we get tensions reduced in Ukraine and Middle East but that’s a very fragile hope with Trump!

But actually substantial growth? Not outside of the Single Market for me, and even the Lib Dem’s are being anaemic on the issue let any of the others. 

Edited January 13 by Gloucester Saint

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Nope…one was taking a huge economic experiment to try to keep her and her party in power, putting the country second. Akin to Martin’s playing from the back experiment in the PL this season.

The other are people who are taking some decisions any government would find bloody difficult, even if they aren’t the ones I’d have chosen myself. Do you think any Labour government wants to cut departmental budgets by 5-10% on top of 14 years of reductions bar the protected areas. The Tories don’t like doing it despite the rhetoric in opposition but the Left will create hell for Reeves in the CSR. Have a look at Reform’s ‘waste and efficiency’ plans - they are bonkers and typical of people with no practical experience, but they’ll carry on promising everything with no way of finding it post-Single Market like they did during the referendum.

Have a look online at the reaction James Callaghan got at their conference in 1976 when they did.  

What if Labour had taken different decisions since getting into power and we hadn't seen as much uproar, loss of business confidence, breaking records for the wrong reasons etc? If everything was inevitable regardless then are we saying that the government is an irrelevance and doesn't matter? 

[whelk]

25 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Nope…one was taking a huge economic experiment to try to keep her and her party in power, putting the country second

And one was elected by the population fed up with state of public services not a handful Tory blue rinses who hate paying tax

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, egg said:

Labour's big mistake was refusing to reverse the damaging Tory NI reduction, and then passing the bill to employers. It was always going to have repercussions, and has.

And yep, people will keep banging on about the Tories, Truss included, killing the economy, because they did. 

Labour, for their part, were given a mountain to climb, but are trying to climb it the wrong way. 

So what they are doing now does have an affect and they do have a share of responsibility for the state of things now. 

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

What if Labour had taken different decisions since getting into power and we hadn't seen as much uproar, loss of business confidence, breaking records for the wrong reasons etc? If everything was inevitable regardless then are we saying that the government is an irrelevance and doesn't matter? 

We will never know. My sense on the NI issue is they were too worried about the press but it was a better option than the employers route they took. They wouldn’t have chosen either, but then the economy is very different to 1997 where Clarke left it in good shape and we were major players in the EU. Public services were run down but there was time and scope to address in term 2.

They aren’t breaking records, that’s hyperbole, but their decisions in some cases wouldn’t have been mine. The government does matter but we’ve made decisions during and since 2016 that have boxed us in and made life a lot more difficult. The levers we could pull before to adjust are reduced. Boris couldn’t do levelling up properly and even then it was too focused on Tory marginals which they lost anyway.

I don’t think they are worse than 2016-24 objectively but I wanted them to be much better. If you read the context above on the early Thatcher years that was grim 1979-82 and a lot of their own party, let alone outside, wanted Howe and Thatcher to stop the monetarism and supply side switch, and step in to save steel, shipbuilding etc but they rode it out despite it getting very hairy economically and massive social unrest in cities all across the country.

[Gloucester Saint]

20 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So what they are doing now does have an affect and they do have a share of responsibility for the state of things now. 

They’ve made decisions I wouldn’t have done on employees v employers NI there but weren’t any panaceas. Hunt would have been repealing his own NI cut, plus other tax rises and the Mail’s server would meltdown. We’d all be moaning on here that we couldn’t afford to keep the heating on, renovate/update our houses, it would have been different constituencies getting upset that’s the only differences.

We all have to take responsibility for the last 9 years nearly, the country screwed up at the referendum, Labour elected Corbyn, Lib Dem’s Swinson and kept on voting for populism in Farage’s outfits which are as healthy for us economically as a lard pie. Parliament tried to save us from a cliff edge Brexit but the public drove us over it anyway. It’s damaged Europe as well which has been a boon for Putin although he’s shot his load with Ukraine and got inflation of 21%. Then Truss after Boris had made a mess of everything, plus the impacts of Covid.

It wasn’t just one tax rise that got us here in summary. The people who voted for Trump are going to see the cost of their essential appliances go through the ceiling. Political parties are a mess and there’s a lack of good leaders on the scene. 

Edited January 13 by Gloucester Saint

[egg]

40 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I dont think anyone ever said they didn't, but there seems to be this opinion that Labour are infallible when as you point out, they aren't. They've taken over a mess but also made significant mistakes themselves

Only staunch labour voters will shout down due criticism. What I find irritating is the "it's all labours fault" without any acknowledgement of the mess they inherited. For me, the Tories got it wrong for too long, and labour have made poor decisions thus far. 

[Gloucester Saint]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

Only staunch labour voters will shout down due criticism. What I find irritating is the "it's all labours fault" without any acknowledgement of the mess they inherited. For me, the Tories got it wrong for too long, and labour have made poor decisions thus far. 

Exactly this Egg. I voted Lib Dem and no regrets, MP is good and popular locally but I want to see Davey pushing the Single Market far more than he is. But I won’t accept any posts on here saying ‘Labour is in power in now’, or Brexit’s happening because the last 9 years have fucked this country royally to save their own party (failing anyway) and create new ones (Farage, Tice, Lowe). If Lowe’s time at SFC was anything to go by, Reform are like having a headache and decapitating yourself.

People will debate 2010-15, 1997-10 and 1979-90 but those were all versions of the UK I recognised and loved.

I don’t recognise the current populist shithole the UK and the world is becoming and my grandfathers who fought in WW2 could tell you about the dangers of populism. 

[hypochondriac]

23 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

They’ve made decisions I wouldn’t have done on employees v employers NI there but weren’t any panaceas. Hunt would have been repealing his own NI cut, plus other tax rises and the Mail’s server would meltdown. We’d all be moaning on here that we couldn’t afford to keep the heating on, renovate/update our houses, it would have been different constituencies getting upset that’s the only differences.

We all have to take responsibility for the last 9 years nearly, the country screwed up at the referendum, Labour elected Corbyn, Lib Dem’s Swinson and kept on voting for populism in Farage’s outfits which are as healthy for us economically as a lard pie. Parliament tried to save us from a cliff edge Brexit but the public drove us over it anyway. It’s damaged Europe as well which has been a boon for Putin although he’s shot his load with Ukraine and got inflation of 21%. Then Truss after Boris had made a mess of everything, plus the impacts of Covid.

It wasn’t just one tax rise that got us here in summary. The people who voted for Trump are going to see the cost of their essential appliances go through the ceiling. Political parties are a mess and there’s a lack of good leaders on the scene. 

I don't think anyone has claimed that, just that Labour should get the same level of criticism for their handling of a poor economy after six months that any other political party would have. Of course they get an amount of leeway given the hand they were given but that's not the same as a solving them of their responsibilities and the choices they have made that haven't worked out at all so far. Maybe they will turn things around and we will see a neutral economy or even a small amount of steady growth this year and then they will rightly take the praise for that. 

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

I don't think anyone has claimed that, just that Labour should get the same level of criticism for their handling of a poor economy after six months that any other political party would have. Of course they get an amount of leeway given the hand they were given but that's not the same as a solving them of their responsibilities and the choices they have made that haven't worked out at all so far. Maybe they will turn things around and we will see a neutral economy or even a small amount of steady growth this year and then they will rightly take the praise for that. 

Agree with all of Hypo, and I have my own issues with their decisions and impact, but we’ve not even seen a full cycle yet. Thatcher took time and if you asked people on the street in late 1979, 1980, they were very angry with the economic course resulting in the 1981 riots.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Agree with all of Hypo, and I have my own issues with their decisions and impact, but we’ve not even seen a full cycle yet. Thatcher took time and if you asked people on the street in late 1979, 1980, they were very angry with the economic course resulting in the 1981 riots.

I agree nothing is set in stone and as I said they could turn things around. Let's not pretend though that if the roles were reversed we would be getting posters on here asking that we reserve judgement on the Tories until the end of their five year term. It's perfectly possible to judge and pass comment throughout a term in office whilst reserving an overall judgement at its conclusion. 

[Gloucester Saint]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I agree nothing is set in stone and as I said they could turn things around. Let's not pretend though that if the roles were reversed we would be getting posters on here asking that we reserve judgement on the Tories until the end of their five year term. It's perfectly possible to judge and pass comment throughout a term in office whilst reserving an overall judgement at its conclusion. 

I criticised cutting the Regional Development Agencies at the time, and Cameron partially acknowledged the mistake by setting up the Local Enterprise Partnerships within 12 months. But there was going to be public spending cuts in 2010 regardless, everyone outside of Labour’s core knew that, Brown had already started in some areas (my wife was working with one of the country’s biggest local authorities and money was already being cut heavily). Did they cut too far? Retrospectively, yes, it choked off recovery a bit but it looks very sane now compared with 2015 onwards. 

Edited January 13 by Gloucester Saint

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

I criticised cutting the Regional Development Agencies at the time, and Cameron partially acknowledged the mistake by setting up the Local Enterprise Partnerships within 12 months. But there was going to be public spending cuts in 2010 regardless, everyone outside of Labour’s core knew that, Brown had already started in some areas (my wife was working with one of the country’s biggest local authorities and money was already being cut heavily). Did they cut too far? Retrospectively, yes, it choked off recovery a bit but it looks very sane now compared with 2015 onwards. 

Don't disagree with that. I never understood the logic of removing Sure Start centres which were working very well and had become something of a hub of support for parents in need. When you focus purely on the balance sheet, you lose schemes that lose money on paper but provide intangible benefits that are hard to measure in purely financial terms. 

Edited January 13 by hypochondriac

[Turkish]

52 minutes ago, egg said:

Only staunch labour voters will shout down due criticism. What I find irritating is the "it's all labours fault" without any acknowledgement of the mess they inherited. For me, the Tories got it wrong for too long, and labour have made poor decisions thus far. 

That’s bang on. Tories were shit but labour aren’t exactly covering themselves in glory this weird rhetoric one side good other side bad and you can’t say anything negative about “your side” or good about the opposition is playground stuff 

Edited January 13 by Turkish