The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[whelk]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Exactly. Incredibly obvious to anyone not soft in the head. Amazing that champions of the working man on the left are now seemingly in favour of corporations and big business who will be rubbing their hands at the chance to grab some of this land for themselves and further weaken our ability to feed ourselves. 

Unlike you geniuses who miraculously want things to improve but pissing yourself at the thought of any taxes going up. Also get very excitable and supportive of anything that is seen to destabilise a Labour govt. Don’t tell me, we will all soon be fleeing to the continent to get food as all the farms will be desolate yeah?

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Unlike you geniuses who miraculously want things to improve but pissing yourself at the thought of any taxes going up. Also get very excitable and supportive of anything that is seen to destabilise a Labour govt. Don’t tell me, we will all soon be fleeing to the continent to get food as all the farms will be desolate yeah?

Do you have to use nonsense hyperbole for every single talking point? How is forcing farmers to potentially sell farmland a good thing? 

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

The interesting thing is I would expect I am very close to you geographically and I would assume I know the farmers you are talking about. For instance I don't know any farmers who send their kids to private school - that is not a thing and in general farming children go to small country schools - private schools are frowned upon as you don't need them to go to agri college and most farmers want to keep farming in the family.

I don’t know any farmers who send their children to private schools either. The point I was making there was about those who do complaining about having to pay VAT.

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Only the fucking stupid ones, and it also depends on what you class as "farmers".

Farage said that about 50% of farmers voted for Brexit. A survey I saw said 58%. Whatever the figure I would suggest that Brexit has done and is doing far more damage to farmers than this budget. Perhaps they should be protesting about Brexit and pushing for closer ties with the EU?

[whelk]

Fucking state of Clarkson. Had to look up that he is only 64. Should get out in those fields himself and eat more vegetables.

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It’s not £3m though is it. Inheritance Tax has to be paid in £ notes and not in muddy furrows.

Yes, which applies to everyone who is liable to pay inheritance tax.

I believe this will affect some other businesses too, not just farming.

[CB Fry]

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

Fucking state of Clarkson. Had to look up that he is only 64. Should get out in those fields himself and eat more vegetables.

Got taken to the fucking cleaners by Victoria Derbyshire from what I saw on the news. Absolutely full of shit and he knows it. 

[whelk]

23 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Do you have to use nonsense hyperbole for every single talking point? How is forcing farmers to potentially sell farmland a good thing? 

It’s how I became president of the debating society.
As I said I don’t know too much about the impact and who to believe but when Clarkson and Farage are up in arms I know which way I will tend to go. There is always hyperbole and scare stories with taxes. No tax  has universal consensus of support to increase. Farmers clearly have  powerfully lobbyists unlike many marginalised others. The NI increase is now going to cripple retailers. CGT will lead to no investment. Going to be a slam dunk for the Tories at next election.

[badgerx16]

 

 

[Farmer Saint]

40 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I don’t know any farmers who send their children to private schools either. The point I was making there was about those who do complaining about having to pay VAT.

Apologies, I misunderstood what you wrote.

[egg]

40 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Farage said that about 50% of farmers voted for Brexit. A survey I saw said 58%. Whatever the figure I would suggest that Brexit has done and is doing far more damage to farmers than this budget. Perhaps they should be protesting about Brexit and pushing for closer ties with the EU?

Daft point. Brexit has happened and has screwed farmers so it's obvious that the government has the responsibility not to screw them more. And using Farage as a source, blimey. 

[Gloucester Saint]

32 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Farage said that about 50% of farmers voted for Brexit. A survey I saw said 58%. Whatever the figure I would suggest that Brexit has done and is doing far more damage to farmers than this budget. Perhaps they should be protesting about Brexit and pushing for closer ties with the EU?

Broadly, you make a fair point. Farmer Saint does as well in the sense plenty didn’t and it’s the far more affluent end around here, Devon, N Yorkshire, E Anglia making the bulk of the noise through the usual tabloids. They got mugged by Boris and Farage along with the fishing community and most of them need to access key public services, even Clarkson. 

The Farmers Alliance made all sorts of trouble for Blair over fuel duty and it didn’t make a blind bit of difference.

Empathy with the vast majority of farmers who have had a shit deal from supermarkets and various governments, but if the Tories ever got a US trade deal in a decade’s time, bye bye farming and the Health Service. Come on, eat up, savour your hormone-injected beef and chlorinated chicken. Bye bye food standards.

[egg]

42 minutes ago, whelk said:

It’s how I became president of the debating society.
As I said I don’t know too much about the impact and who to believe but when Clarkson and Farage are up in arms I know which way I will tend to go. There is always hyperbole and scare stories with taxes. No tax  has universal consensus of support to increase. Farmers clearly have  powerfully lobbyists unlike many marginalised others. The NI increase is now going to cripple retailers. CGT will lead to no investment. Going to be a slam dunk for the Tories at next election.

Sure, no tax rises are popular, and will hit some more than others. The NI in employers will be damaging, and CGT will have an impact. The farm issue is a different issue for me as it impacts the passing of generational businesses, and will lead to a reduced number of operational farms which has all manner of impacts.

[sadoldgit]

Just now, egg said:

Daft point. Brexit has happened and has screwed farmers so it's obvious that the government has the responsibility not to screw them more. And using Farage as a source, blimey. 

But the man is Mr Brexit! I know you don’t believe that farmers voted for Brexit but as I have said before, the fields were full of Vote Leave signs where I live in East Kent and stretched over to East Sussex.

It’s not a daft point at all. The more people who stand up and say that Brexit is ruining the UK the more chance we have of trying to do something about it.

Anyway…

I have sympathy for the farmers in the lower end of the scale who will be affected by this, I have sympathy for the fisherman who were screwed by Brexit, I have sympathy for the care workers who do a brilliant job and are paid a pittance, I have sympathy for nurses, I have sympathy for us pensioners who have lost our winter fuel allowance, I have sympathy for those with fixed term mortgages that will end soon and will find their mortgages doubling, I have sympathy for those trying to make ends meet on Universal Credit,  I have sympathy for the coal workers and steel workers who have lost their jobs over the years. I could go on. The farmers tell us that they should be the exception but where do you draw the line? Many people can make a case for being an exemption. Life has been very tough for certain people for years. We know that the economy is in a poor state and we know that money needs to be found to rebuild and reinvest. We all need to play our part, including those who have been lucky enough to be exempt for many years.

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

 

I have sympathy for the farmers in the lower end of the scale who will be affected by this, 

There won't be any.

It will take at least £3m for it to kick in. Those at the lower end won't fit that bracket as it is estimated to affect about 40 farms per year.

Even then it's 20% of anything over £3m, so even a farm worth £4m will be liable for £200k. Payable over 10 years, so £20k per year.

That's what, probably about £8-10m per year of extra taxes which will pay for what, 2 days of hotels for asylum seekers? About as noticeable as a piss in the ocean.

It's not a big money earner and has caused more grief already than it is worth.

Right sentiment, wrong target.

[Farmer Saint]

12 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

But the man is Mr Brexit! I know you don’t believe that farmers voted for Brexit but as I have said before, the fields were full of Vote Leave signs where I live in East Kent and stretched over to East Sussex.

It’s not a daft point at all. The more people who stand up and say that Brexit is ruining the UK the more chance we have of trying to do something about it.

Anyway…

I have sympathy for the farmers in the lower end of the scale who will be affected by this, I have sympathy for the fisherman who were screwed by Brexit, I have sympathy for the care workers who do a brilliant job and are paid a pittance, I have sympathy for nurses, I have sympathy for us pensioners who have lost our winter fuel allowance, I have sympathy for those with fixed term mortgages that will end soon and will find their mortgages doubling, I have sympathy for those trying to make ends meet on Universal Credit,  I have sympathy for the coal workers and steel workers who have lost their jobs over the years. I could go on. The farmers tell us that they should be the exception but where do you draw the line? Many people can make a case for being an exemption. Life has been very tough for certain people for years. We know that the economy is in a poor state and we know that money needs to be found to rebuild and reinvest. We all need to play our part, including those who have been lucky enough to be exempt for many years.

Lower end farmers won't be affected, that's the point. £3m is a lot of farm, and tends to not be family farms.

[trousers]

25 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

The more people who stand up and say that Brexit is ruining the UK the more chance we have of trying to do something about it.

If only we'd had a recent general election where the intelligent majority could've voted for a party that was advocating rejoining the EU...

[hypochondriac]

20 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

There won't be any.

It will take at least £3m for it to kick in. Those at the lower end won't fit that bracket as it is estimated to affect about 40 farms per year.

Even then it's 20% of anything over £3m, so even a farm worth £4m will be liable for £200k. Payable over 10 years, so £20k per year.

That's what, probably about £8-10m per year of extra taxes which will pay for what, 2 days of hotels for asylum seekers? About as noticeable as a piss in the ocean.

It's not a big money earner and has caused more grief already than it is worth.

Right sentiment, wrong target.

That's because the primary aim of it isn't to make money. 

[sadoldgit]

44 minutes ago, trousers said:

If only we'd had a recent general election where the intelligent majority could've voted for a party that was advocating rejoining the EU...

If only the politicians weren’t afraid of mentioning what a disaster Brexit has been for fear of upsetting the Red Wall.

Anyway, was watching Clarkson getting very huffy with the BBC for asking him about his quote 3 years ago that he bought the farm to avoid inheritance tax. He says now that he wanted to by a “shoot” which had the added bonus of not attracting inheritance tax.

This is another direct from Clarkson and no mention of buying a “shoot”.

“I’ve always seen my farm as many things: a place of great beauty, a fun business and, if I’m honest, a good way of passing my wealth to my children without the taxman getting involved”.

I believe that he has put his farm into a trust for his kids so has avoided the taxman anyway.

[trousers]

20 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

If only the politicians weren’t afraid of mentioning what a disaster Brexit has been for fear of upsetting the Red Wall.

Indeed. This democracy malarkey is a seriously flawed concept...

[skintsaint]

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Yes, which applies to everyone who is liable to pay inheritance tax.

I believe this will affect some other businesses too, not just farming.

Er… no

In general Inheritance Tax will be paid by selling readily convertible assets such as property. Not by selling the tools of the trade such as tractors.

You are correct in saying that this new act of grave robbing will affect family businesses too.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, skintsaint said:

Let's be honest. Everyone wants to see him stuck under a cow. 

[hypochondriac]

So growth slowing and inflation up above the bank of England's target. Great... 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

So growth slowing and inflation up above the bank of England's target. Great... 

Quite predictable. Both your post and the impact of energy price cap rise affecting the inflation rate. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Quite predictable. Both your post and the impact of energy price cap rise affecting the inflation rate. 

The sharpest increase in two years. If it wasn't happening then there would be nothing to post. I know that facts seem to upset you. 

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The sharpest increase in two years. If it wasn't happening then there would be nothing to post. I know that facts seem to upset you. 

No I just think I have a better grasp of economic data

[Gloucester Saint]

10 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Let's be honest. Everyone wants to see him stuck under a cow. 

In that right wing bubble, probably, although most of the country felt the same about Boris after partygate and Truss wrecked what was left of the economy after him, we resented both of them having access to oxygen. Still do actually. Preferably they just emigrate to America and kiss Trump’s arse for 4 years and give various empty speeches at the Heritage Foundation.

Whatever Labour does, it’s factually impossible to fuck the economy more than those two did. The tabloids can’t run away from their own shit they advocated for (Mail, Telegraph and Truss and all of them on Brexit). They got their Disneyland and it was a fucking disaster beyond any current or future comparison. Taking economic lectures from Truss and Kwarteng is like Nadine Dorries telling people drinking is bad for them. 

Edited November 20 by Gloucester Saint

[hypochondriac]

30 minutes ago, whelk said:

No I just think I have a better grasp of economic data

So you're quibbling with what I've written? 

[hypochondriac]

28 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

In that right wing bubble, probably, although most of the country felt the same about Boris after partygate and Truss wrecked what was left of the economy after him, we resented both of them having access to oxygen. Still do actually. Preferably they just emigrate to America and kiss Trump’s arse for 4 years and give various empty speeches at the Heritage Foundation.

Whatever Labour does, it’s factually impossible to fuck the economy more than those two did. The tabloids can’t run away from their own shit they advocated for (Mail, Telegraph and Truss and all of them on Brexit). They got their Disneyland and it was a fucking disaster beyond any current or future comparison. Taking economic lectures from Truss and Kwarteng is like Nadine Dorries telling people drinking is bad for them. 

Not sure why my Alan Partridge allusion prompted this post, but you'll get no argument from me that the majority of the Tory Party are not awful people who have been terrible for the country. 

[sadoldgit]

23 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Not sure why my Alan Partridge allusion prompted this post, but you'll get no argument from me that the majority of the Tory Party are not awful people who have been terrible for the country. 

People who voted in those who have wrecked the country and voted for Brexit need to own it. Not all are awful people but some are and those now are desperately trying to blame Starmer and Labour for everything despite them only being in power since July. When Labour crash the economy the way Truss did, when Labour give their mates billions of pounds of business contracts on what turns out to be useless crap, when Labour start lying about pretty much everything on a daily basis, then chirp up and have a pop. At the moment Labour have a long way to go before they are in any way comparable to the incompetence that has gone before.

[sadoldgit]

13 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Er… no

In general Inheritance Tax will be paid by selling readily convertible assets such as property. Not by selling the tools of the trade such as tractors.

You are correct in saying that this new act of grave robbing will affect family businesses too.

As I said, everyone has to find a way of finding the money to pay inheritance tax if they are liable for it. In terms of “grave robbing” as you so colourfully put it, what should farmers be exempt? We all benefit from the NHS, public services etc, should we all pay for it? Not every farmer will be liable for it. Do you have an issue with those with the broadest shoulders taking a bit more of the burden?

[Whitey Grandad]

30 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

As I said, everyone has to find a way of finding the money to pay inheritance tax if they are liable for it. In terms of “grave robbing” as you so colourfully put it, what should farmers be exempt? We all benefit from the NHS, public services etc, should we all pay for it? Not every farmer will be liable for it. Do you have an issue with those with the broadest shoulders taking a bit more of the burden?

Everybody should be exempt from Inheritance Tax.

Inheritance Tax is inherently different from taxes on generated income or revenue. The assets that it steals are not readily replaceable. If as a nation state you carve a big lump out of a farm, or a business or any other enterprise then that operation becomes no longer viable.

I have an issue with the size of the burden. Every tax, that is. Not everybody benefits from public services yet most pay for them.

And in no way could farmers be described as having the ‘broadest shoulders’. Besides, why shouldn’t everybody pay the same rate of tax?

[Gloucester Saint]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Not sure why my Alan Partridge allusion prompted this post, but you'll get no argument from me that the majority of the Tory Party are not awful people who have been terrible for the country. 

Fair enough, they’re having to make some unpopular and difficult decisions as the Coalition did in its early years. We probably both disagree and also agree on some of the measures they’ve respectively taken and whether the burden should have fallen elsewhere or not, but the burden was made clear by the IFS pre election whoever won, as it was in 2010. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Fair enough, they’re having to make some unpopular and difficult decisions as the Coalition did in its early years. We probably both disagree and also agree on some of the measures they’ve respectively taken and whether the burden should have fallen elsewhere or not, but the burden was made clear by the IFS pre election whoever won, as it was in 2010. 

That's a cop out in my opinion. It's very clear that some decisions have been taken for ideological reasons and not because they will make any significant amount of money and in fact may actually lose money in some cases. A lot of the choices made are political choices and not because they are forced to do so. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

People who voted in those who have wrecked the country and voted for Brexit need to own it. Not all are awful people but some are and those now are desperately trying to blame Starmer and Labour for everything despite them only being in power since July. When Labour crash the economy the way Truss did, when Labour give their mates billions of pounds of business contracts on what turns out to be useless crap, when Labour start lying about pretty much everything on a daily basis, then chirp up and have a pop. At the moment Labour have a long way to go before they are in any way comparable to the incompetence that has gone before.

 

[Gloucester Saint]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That's a cop out in my opinion. It's very clear that some decisions have been taken for ideological reasons and not because they will make any significant amount of money and in fact may actually lose money in some cases. A lot of the choices made are political choices and not because they are forced to do so. 

The NI contributions weren’t and that’s a major earner to repair the damage. I’ve got a very wealthy friend who will be moaning about the VAT on public school fees but with hundreds of schools failing under aero concrete, it’s easy to understand why. He doesn’t like it but I understand it. We also needed to stop the rail strikes to save the huge hospitality industry and health ones to get productivity up and sick back to work. The border force needed boosting and that costs money. 

Personally I’d have reversed the NI cut we clearly couldn’t afford and rejoin the Single Market, because Slovenians and Finns aren’t coming here via boats, and we wouldn’t have a £40bn economic black hole every year. But unlike Labour, I don’t have to worry about re-election or political optics, I can pick the common sense solutions. Do those two and we’re not even discussing farmers. 

Edited November 20 by Gloucester Saint

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

when Labour start lying about pretty much everything

I think that field was ploughed weeks ago mate. 

[Gloucester Saint]

4 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I think that field was ploughed weeks ago mate. 

They all do it, they wouldn’t get elected otherwise. Maggie on doubling VAT, the party I vote for on tuition fees to get the ministerial cars, Brown on pensions. Farage has told loads and now he’s elected it’ll be harder to shrug them off. 

Edited November 20 by Gloucester Saint

[iansums]

7 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

The NI contributions weren’t and that’s a major earner to repair the damage. I’ve got a very wealthy friend who will be moaning about the VAT on public school fees but with hundreds of schools failing under aero concrete, it’s easy to understand why. He doesn’t like it but I understand it. We also needed to stop the rail strikes to save the huge hospitality industry and health ones to get productivity up and sick back to work. The border force needed boosting and that costs money. 

Personally I’d have reversed the NI cut we clearly couldn’t afford and rejoin the Single Market, because Slovenians and Finns aren’t coming here via boats, and we wouldn’t have a £40bn economic black hole every year. But unlike Labour, I don’t have to worry about re-election or political optics, I can pick the common sense solutions. Do those two and we’re not even discussing farmers. 

£40bn black hole?

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, iansums said:

£40bn black hole?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/chancellor-rachel-reeves-budget-brexit-behind-labour-ps40-billion-tax-rise-4847584

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-12-20/brexit-costs-government-40-billion-a-year-in-lost-tax-revenue

https://www.bestforbritain.org/inheriting_the_cost_of_brexit

Nationalism is very expensive

[AlexLaw76]

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-to-scrap-warships-military-helicopters-and-fleet-of-drones-to-save-money-despite-threats-abroad-13257285

[trousers]

1 hour ago, Gloucester Saint said:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/chancellor-rachel-reeves-budget-brexit-behind-labour-ps40-billion-tax-rise-4847584

Anyone else seeing the irony in a Scottish Nationalist citing nationalism as a bad idea...? At least it'll give Alanis Morrisette a new verse should she ever feel the need to write a sophomore version of her most renowned piece of work...

[Tamesaint]

34 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-to-scrap-warships-military-helicopters-and-fleet-of-drones-to-save-money-despite-threats-abroad-13257285

According to you our armed forces are so crap they wouldnt last a weekend if put up against the Russians so why not scrap them and spend the money on hospitals? 

Edited November 20 by Tamesaint

[Weston Super Saint]

11 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

According to you our armed forces are so crap they wouldnt last a weekend if put up against the Russians so why not scrap them and spend the money on hospitals? 

Or send them to Ukraine and see if they last a week?

[Farmer Saint]

9 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I think that field was ploughed weeks ago mate. 

Don't you mean "That planet was explored..."?

Edited November 20 by Farmer Saint

[Farmer Saint]

51 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

According to you our armed forces are so crap they wouldnt last a weekend if put up against the Russians so why not scrap them and spend the money on hospitals? 

"We spend £1billion a week on defence. Let's fund our NHS instead"

Should attract approx 52% of the population. Could put it on the side of a tank. Or an aircraft carrier.

 

Edited November 20 by Farmer Saint

[rallyboy]

59 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Could put it on the side of a tank. Or an aircraft carrier.

 

Put it on top of the aircraft carrier, there's fuck all else on it.

[badgerx16]

10 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-to-scrap-warships-military-helicopters-and-fleet-of-drones-to-save-money-despite-threats-abroad-13257285

Some old ships, including one that is uneconomical to repair, some outdated drones, and some ancient helicopters are being pensioned off to recover the money currently being sunk into trying to keep them functional and reinvest it on new kit.

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Some old ships, including one that is uneconomical to repair, some outdated drones, and some ancient helicopters are being pensioned off to recover the money currently being sunk into trying to keep them functional and reinvest it on new kit.

Old ships? It is an entire  capability that has now been killed off

Edited November 21 by AlexLaw76