The Starmer Years - Can The New Broom Sweep Clean?

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, egg said:

Agreed, although the employers NI will sting and probably lead to job losses.

No probably about it.
 

She said herself that it’s a tax on jobs. She also said it makes each new recruit more expensive and increases the costs to business. She’s also claimed before that “it takes money out of people’s pockets”. 
 

 

[egg]

22 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

No probably about it.
 

She said herself that it’s a tax on jobs. She also said it makes each new recruit more expensive and increases the costs to business. She’s also claimed before that “it takes money out of people’s pockets”. 
 

 

The hit had to be taken somewhere. Employers or employees was her choice and on balance she got it right imo. That said, the pledge not to reverse the employee NI cut was daft so she had to work with the hand she was dealt. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Lots of generally positive views here. As I was reading, I popped on the radio, for what seemed to be something unusually scathing on the Beeb

"tax rises that can seen from near earth orbit"

"The shredding of commitments, including borrowing rules to fund...more borrowing."

"Money pumped into infrastructure to get growth that even with that investment is showing to be somewhat anaemic in projected figures."

They are mentioning the risk of the borrowing not resulting in a growth that already tails off the year after next.

[badgerx16]

13 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Lots of generally positive views here. As I was reading, I popped on the radio, for what seemed to be something unusually scathing on the Beeb

"tax rises that can seen from near earth orbit"

"The shredding of commitments, including borrowing rules to fund...more borrowing."

"Money pumped into infrastructure to get growth that even with that investment is showing to be somewhat anaemic in projected figures."

They are mentioning the risk of the borrowing not resulting in a growth that already tails off the year after next.

The Kuenssberg virus is spreading through the BBC news department.

Edited 31 October, 2024 by badgerx16

[whelk]

52 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The Kuenssberg virus is spreadingb through the BBC news department.

That little twat Mason is a hard core Tory. Labour should rip up the BBC

[Gloucester Saint]

1 hour ago, egg said:

The hit had to be taken somewhere. Employers or employees was her choice and on balance she got it right imo. That said, the pledge not to reverse the employee NI cut was daft so she had to work with the hand she was dealt. 

Absolutely, politically what she’s chosen is more practical. Would have been a huge risk politically to rely on most employees realising that the NI cut was unfunded even with the dire and accurate IFS warnings. And to think the Tory right were demanding Hunt and Sunak did far more - they’ve learned nothing whatsoever from Truss.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, egg said:

The hit had to be taken somewhere. Employers or employees was her choice and on balance she got it right imo. That said, the pledge not to reverse the employee NI cut was daft so she had to work with the hand she was dealt. 

It's not one or the other, they're the same thing. Employers' contributions are part of the employees' remuneration.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It's not one or the other, they're the same thing. Employers' contributions are part of the employees' remuneration.

Employers paying with their money is different to employees paying with theirs. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Employers paying with their money is different to employees paying with theirs. 

No, and this is one of my bugbears. The employers contribution is just as much a part of your salary as what you eventually get in your pocket. It's part of your remuneration as all the rest. The fact that the government creams it off before you see it is irrelevant. It makes your marginal tax rate higher thab they would like you to know. It's a payroll tax but it's your money beore it gets stolen from you.

Other countries vary. When I had a company in France every month we had a payroll to approve and on top of the net salary there was a long list of enforced contributions, maybe 10 items incluing various insurances and even a perecntage that went to the local chamber of commerce which is why these are seen there as government bodies rather than local trade associations.

When I was in Denmark however I ws told that the money that the employer paid all went to the employee without deductions and it was up to the individual to settle up with the goverment. This is one of the reasons why you have to be careful when comparing international salaries.

[egg]

46 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

No, and this is one of my bugbears. The employers contribution is just as much a part of your salary as what you eventually get in your pocket. It's part of your remuneration as all the rest. The fact that the government creams it off before you see it is irrelevant. It makes your marginal tax rate higher thab they would like you to know. It's a payroll tax but it's your money beore it gets stolen from you.

Other countries vary. When I had a company in France every month we had a payroll to approve and on top of the net salary there was a long list of enforced contributions, maybe 10 items incluing various insurances and even a perecntage that went to the local chamber of commerce which is why these are seen there as government bodies rather than local trade associations.

When I was in Denmark however I ws told that the money that the employer paid all went to the employee without deductions and it was up to the individual to settle up with the goverment. This is one of the reasons why you have to be careful when comparing international salaries.

You're overcomplicating a simple point. Employers NI is paid by the employer from it's money. Employees NI isn't. The former stifles the employer. 

[Whitey Grandad]

44 minutes ago, egg said:

You're overcomplicating a simple point. Employers NI is paid by the employer from it's money. Employees NI isn't. The former stifles the employer. 

This is the trick that they have pulled on you. It’s paid by the employer on the employee’s behalf but it’s part of the employee’s salary. You’re looking at it from the employee’s viewpoint. Try looking at it from the point of view of the employer.

[egg]

4 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

This is the trick that they have pulled on you. It’s paid by the employer on the employee’s behalf but it’s part of the employee’s salary. You’re looking at it from the employee’s viewpoint. Try looking at it from the point of view of the employer.

There is no trick, and I think you misunderstand.

Employers NI is a levy/tax on the employer and is paid by the employer from it's own money in addition to the gross pay to the employee. It is not paid on behalf of the employee from it's salary, that's employee's NI. 

[pingpong]

30 minutes ago, egg said:

There is no trick, and I think you misunderstand.

Employers NI is a levy/tax on the employer and is paid by the employer from it's own money in addition to the gross pay to the employee. It is not paid on behalf of the employee from it's salary, that's employee's NI. 

I think they are saying it's a cost for the employer associated with the employees salary, ie part of overhead associated with each employee.

I wouldn't consider it as "my money" though, it's very much a tax on employers that just happens to be associated with the number of employees and their salaries.  If they abolished it, it wouldn't pass on to me, I'm sure...

 

 

Edited 31 October, 2024 by pingpong

[egg]

26 minutes ago, pingpong said:

I think they are saying it's a cost for the employer associated with the employees salary, ie part of overhead associated with each employee.

I wouldn't consider it as "my money" though, it's very much a tax on employers that just happens to be associated with the number of employees and their salaries.  If they abolished it, it wouldn't pass on to me, I'm sure...

 

 

I don't think there's doubt about that. It's a tax on the employer paid in addition to the gross salary. It's paid by the employer to HMRC in addition to the PAYE and employees NI deducted at source by the employer. It has nothing to do with the employees save that employers will have less cash to pay them as they'll be paying more tax for the privelige of having staff! 

[Tamesaint]

Employer contributions for pensions and NI will still be much smaller than what is paid in Europe. My company employed French salesmen and the rule of thumb was to double the cost of their salary to work out the total cost of employment. Germany wasn't much different. 

If we want public services to be as good as on the Continent we will need to expect similar levels of taxation. 

[whelk]

48 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

Employer contributions for pensions and NI will still be much smaller than what is paid in Europe. My company employed French salesmen and the rule of thumb was to double the cost of their salary to work out the total cost of employment. Germany wasn't much different. 

If we want public services to be as good as on the Continent we will need to expect similar levels of taxation. 

I don’t understand, surely all these French and German companies would move to UK or go bust? As we all know any increase in any tax means companies flee the UK.

[OldNick]

At least we can get on with our lives now. Hopefully people will now start spending. It was not as bad as it could have been and so good on Reeves for that. Quite often the bad bits are in the small print and slide out later. Anyway Im happy as no budget helps me financially always a victim. Its going to be fun to get my free pint of beer with the 1p off, only 700 pints to go

[whelk]

The predicted howling from most of the press and tv news getting excitable about how big it all is but to average punter nothing much changes so imagine not many getting worked up

Edited 31 October, 2024 by whelk

[Whitey Grandad]

4 hours ago, egg said:

There is no trick, and I think you misunderstand.

Employers NI is a levy/tax on the employer and is paid by the employer from it's own money in addition to the gross pay to the employee. It is not paid on behalf of the employee from it's salary, that's employee's NI. 

See, they have totally conned you. In my time I have paid enough NI for my employees to know what I’m talking about. To any employer their NI contribution is lumped in with the employee’s total salary. The government steal it before the employee ever sees it. If you’re an employer who’s thinking about employing someone (hint: don’t) then the two categories of NI are considered together.

You might like to try the exercise of calculating the marginal rate of taxes for a middle earning worker once you include the employer’s contribution in the total remuneration.

And whilst we’re here, let’s not forget that although pensioners don’t pay NI their employers do.

Make no mistake. This is an increase in tax on workers. Where do you think this money comes from?

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, OldNick said:

At least we can get on with our lives now. Hopefully people will now start spending. It was not as bad as it could have been and so good on Reeves for that. Quite often the bad bits are in the small print and slide out later. Anyway Im happy as no budget helps me financially always a victim. Its going to be fun to get my free pint of beer with the 1p off, only 700 pints to go

I was thinking the same myself last night. Said to Mrs SOG that the local ale house will be swamped with extra customers now that a pint of Moretti is down to only £6.99. Duckie and chums will be happy. 🥳

[Gloucester Saint]

48 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I was thinking the same myself last night. Said to Mrs SOG that the local ale house will be swamped with extra customers now that a pint of Moretti is down to only £6.99. Duckie and chums will be happy. 🥳

That’s still steep - it’s less than that here and this is quite an expensive part of the Cotswolds. Decent lager I grant you, but that’s the sort of price you pay at Deya in Cheltenham for top grade beer. 

[whelk]

The reporting from BBC on this budget has hit a new low.

screaming how Reeves has admitted it may affect workers pay as employers will have less money to afford wage rises. Wow what a bombshell to lead with on 1pm News. 
 

 

Edited 31 October, 2024 by whelk

[egg]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

See, they have totally conned you. In my time I have paid enough NI for my employees to know what I’m talking about. To any employer their NI contribution is lumped in with the employee’s total salary. The government steal it before the employee ever sees it. If you’re an employer who’s thinking about employing someone (hint: don’t) then the two categories of NI are considered together.

You might like to try the exercise of calculating the marginal rate of taxes for a middle earning worker once you include the employer’s contribution in the total remuneration.

And whilst we’re here, let’s not forget that although pensioners don’t pay NI their employers do.

Make no mistake. This is an increase in tax on workers. Where do you think this money comes from?

I won't continue this whitey. I have 100+ employees, I understand the basics here, and a bit more. Employers NI being a payment by employers from their money, and employees paying from their money, is not a complicated thing. 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

I was thinking the same myself last night. Said to Mrs SOG that the local ale house will be swamped with extra customers now that a pint of Moretti is down to only £6.99. Duckie and chums will be happy. 🥳

Weird. I much doubt duckie was thinking about you telling his missus you’re in your local staring at the mix raced bar maids tits as you thank Kier Starmer for adding to you burgeoning debts by putting the cost of your pint up

Edited 31 October, 2024 by Turkish

[Lord Duckhunter]

18 hours ago, egg said:

The hit had to be taken somewhere. Employers or employees was her choice and on balance she got it right imo. That said, the pledge not to reverse the employee NI cut was daft so she had to work with the hand she was dealt. 

You’re right their triple lock on taxes was ridiculous & boxed them in when they didn’t need to. If they wanted to raise taxes, they should have pledged to reverse Hunts last employee cut saying it was unaffordable & a bribe. What would it have cost them, a dozen seats? Instead they’ve spent 2 weeks defining “working people” & have now increased pay roll tax. I work for a Dutch Company & we had a UK recruiting ban put in place last week. The reasons for that are above my pay grade but I’m sure the speculation didn’t help, and I’m certain the budget won’t result in it being lifted anytime soon. 
 

 

[OldNick]

28 minutes ago, whelk said:

The reporting from BBC on this budget has hit a new low.

screaming how Reeves has admitted it may affect workers pay as employers will have less money to afford wage rises. Wow what a bombshell to lead with on 1pm News. 
 

 

I feel employers will see this as a wage rise. I know nasty bosses get little shrift from people as of course they are making profits out of the workers endeavour, but they have to provide the profits to keep the workers in jobs and also live themselves. Either way we will all pay as of course the rise in NI will be passed on by higher prices. I doubt many will just swallow the rise and not pass it on. So 'workers' will have an indirect tax on them. Anyway, the media for weeks have been scaring the consumers about the terrible taxes and now hopefully that can wane and people focus again on a different thing.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I won't continue this whitey. I have 100+ employees, I understand the basics here, and a bit more. Employers NI being a payment by employers from their money, and employees paying from their money, is not a complicated thing. 

Nor I.

If you can’t see the sleight of hand then you never will.

Employees will find out soon enough when the next round of pay rises come under discussion.

[whelk]

43 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Nor I.

If you can’t see the sleight of hand then you never will.

Employees will find out soon enough when the next round of pay rises come under discussion.

I don’t think anyone sees it a sleight of hand and confident pretty much everyone understands it.

[hypochondriac]

Dearie me. 

[whelk]

Blimey this looks worse than the Great Depression. What’s it plummeted to $1.287!

 

[trousers]

Damn... if only I'd had an inkling that Labour-leaning supporters would robotically praise the budget and Tory-leaning supporters would robotically criticise it, I'd have bet a sizeable wedge on the reaction and raked it in....

Edited 31 October, 2024 by trousers

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, trousers said:

Damn... if only I'd had an inkling that Labour-leaning supporters would robotically praise the budget and Tory-leaning supporters would robotically criticise it, I'd have bet a sizeable wedge on the reaction and raked it in....

I'd say the market reaction is a pretty good judge. They certainly were with Truss. 

[badgerx16]

Xis

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Dearie me. 

If you pick the correct scaling for the Y axis you can make stepping off a dropped kerb look like falling off Mount Everest.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

57 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'd say the market reaction is a pretty good judge. They certainly were with Truss. 

Something...deep state...something... 🙂

[egg]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

I'd say the market reaction is a pretty good judge. They certainly were with Truss. 

The market reaction hasn't been great, that's for sure. Pound down, stocks down (some big falls on the ftse 100 and 250), and most worryingly bond yields up. Inflationary pressure already. 

[pingpong]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Dearie me. 

Oh no.

 

[egg]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Damn... if only I'd had an inkling that Labour-leaning supporters would robotically praise the budget and Tory-leaning supporters would robotically criticise it, I'd have bet a sizeable wedge on the reaction and raked it in....

I don't lean to either, and on the whole liked the budget, but don't like the market reaction. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I don't lean to either, and on the whole liked the budget, but don't like the market reaction. 

Markets haven’t done much at all

[The Kraken]

Major world markets all down similar or more amounts today.

[Lord Duckhunter]

https://x.com/bizwarroom/status/1852062794423968068?s=61&t=tf-1MmhVNe6aHN684Fwt8w

[egg]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Markets haven’t done much at all

Examples - Smith & Nephew down 12.48%, Persimmon 7.47%, Taylor Wimpey 6.7%, Howden/Whitbread/Barratt all down over 5%. Similar on the 250 - Bellway, Crest, Wetherspoon etc. Housing and alcohol related stock has taken a battering today.The market isn't seeing optimism in those sectors. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

Major world markets all down similar or more amounts today.

Yes, but the issue for us are the sectors that have been hit very hard, the pound dropping, and gilt yields rising. Not a good combination. 

[whelk]

10 minutes ago, egg said:

Examples - Smith & Nephew down 12.48%, Persimmon 7.47%, Taylor Wimpey 6.7%, Howden/Whitbread/Barratt all down over 5%. Similar on the 250 - Bellway, Crest, Wetherspoon etc. Housing and alcohol related stock has taken a battering today.The market isn't seeing optimism in those sectors. 

Ed Conway is keen to piss his pants. So FTSE not even down 50 points. Markets always fluctuate yet a small drop in the pound and yeah it’s all lack of confidence in Labour. Pray tell what drives similar moves on other days?

[AlexLaw76]

https://x.com/addicted2newz/status/1851740870069903716?s=46

[egg]

9 hours ago, whelk said:

Ed Conway is keen to piss his pants. So FTSE not even down 50 points. Markets always fluctuate yet a small drop in the pound and yeah it’s all lack of confidence in Labour. Pray tell what drives similar moves on other days?

A balanced Ed Conway piece - we're not in crisis territory, yet, is a fair assessment. 

https://news.sky.com/story/markets-hostile-to-reevess-budget-but-were-not-in-crisis-territory-yet-13245638

 

[hypochondriac]

10 hours ago, whelk said:

Ed Conway is keen to piss his pants. So FTSE not even down 50 points. Markets always fluctuate yet a small drop in the pound and yeah it’s all lack of confidence in Labour. Pray tell what drives similar moves on other days?

Do you think that's a signal that the markets agree with your assessment that the budget was very promising though? 

[tdmickey3]

Once the media hysteria settles down, everything will, well except for the lickspittles on social media

[badgerx16]

10 hours ago, whelk said:

Ed Conway is keen to piss his pants. So FTSE not even down 50 points. Markets always fluctuate yet a small drop in the pound and yeah it’s all lack of confidence in Labour. Pray tell what drives similar moves on other days?

FTSE dropped over 230 points after the Truss/Kwarteng mini-budget.

[hypochondriac]

17 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

Once the media hysteria settles down, everything will, well except for the lickspittles on social media

So the market reaction is a sign of them being hysterical? Was that the case for market reactions for previous budgets? 

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

FTSE dropped over 230 points after the Truss/Kwarteng mini-budget.

Great. It's not as bad as the worst budget in most of our lifetimes. Do you have a comparison with any other budget in the last twenty years?