east-stand-nic Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 10 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: Can you not see how dumb your replies are? Perhaps get a grown up to read and explain posts before you reply? The referendum wasn’t based on PR. The result is neither here nor there. It was the way the referendum was framed that I take issue with, not the result. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum LOL at the most pious hypocritical poster on here. You have been out so many times I have lost count and interest. If people disagree with you, right away they are right wing fascists. You have absolutely zero self awareness. You are beyond a joke as a human being and i suspect thus you are a joke character invented for someone to have a laugh. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 12 Author Share Posted July 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, east-stand-nic said: LOL at the most pious hypocritical poster on here. You have been out so many times I have lost count and interest. If people disagree with you, right away they are right wing fascists. You have absolutely zero self awareness. You are beyond a joke as a human being and i suspect thus you are a joke character invented for someone to have a laugh. Are you a Russian bot? Or maybe a second account for Turkish? Edited July 12 by sadoldgit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 1 hour ago, east-stand-nic said: LOL at the most pious hypocritical poster on here. You have been out so many times I have lost count and interest. If people disagree with you, right away they are right wing fascists. You have absolutely zero self awareness. You are beyond a joke as a human being and i suspect thus you are a joke character invented for someone to have a laugh. Pot calls kettle ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West end Saints Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 I'm a hypocrite on this topic. Often thought it would be a better, more democratic system, but seeing the reform vote I don't want us to go anywhere near it. If there was some way to control rubbish that reform spout, that they don't really mean and have no thought through plans to implement just to get some gullible people fall for, then it maybe worth considering but at the moment it would elect racists and bigots, who no one has vetted and would not help the country at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 There will never be proportional representation as any party with the power to do it would have got in to power comfortably using "First Past the Post" and will have no desire to change the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 15 Author Share Posted July 15 5 hours ago, Nolan said: There will never be proportional representation as any party with the power to do it would have got in to power comfortably using "First Past the Post" and will have no desire to change the system. Which is exactly why it should be taken out of parliamentary hands and decided by the people. If there is enough support in the country for a proper referendum on electoral reform/PR, any sitting government can’t ignore it forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 9 hours ago, West end Saints said: I'm a hypocrite on this topic. Often thought it would be a better, more democratic system, but seeing the reform vote I don't want us to go anywhere near it. If there was some way to control rubbish that reform spout, that they don't really mean and have no thought through plans to implement just to get some gullible people fall for, then it maybe worth considering but at the moment it would elect racists and bigots, who no one has vetted and would not help the country at all. Yeah I know what you mean. I only like democracy when it gives me the parties I agree with too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, sadoldgit said: Which is exactly why it should be taken out of parliamentary hands and decided by the people. If there is enough support in the country for a proper referendum on electoral reform/PR, any sitting government can’t ignore it forever. Who decides that we will have your Commission / referendum if it isn't Parliament ? Edited July 15 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 Has the obvious question been asked, what form of voting would be used in a referendum on proportional representation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmes_and_Watson Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said: Has the obvious question been asked, what form of voting would be used in a referendum on proportional representation? A ballot paper you roll out to 3ft, so you can see all the PR variations. There's a couple of blanks at the bottom. One for "Whichever one gives me what I want, or I want another referendum." And one where you can make up your own, as so many others have had a go. That's, of course, just the first round to see what will make the cut of 100 for the actual vote. There's still the multiple round, regional list run offs to go through. Naturally these will be weighted. 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 15 Author Share Posted July 15 2 hours ago, badgerx16 said: Who decides that we will have your Commission / referendum if it isn't Parliament ? Which is a major issue. If Parliament holds all of the power over itself how do we ever get reform if it can vote to protect the interest of the ruling party all of the time. This is where pressure groups and public opinion play their part. As I said before, it worked for Brexit. There are already organisations working to bring electoral reform to the fore. There are many MPs who believe that the system needs to be reformed. The LibDems want reform. Farage will be loudly beating that drum. Parliament may well find it has to agree to a review of the electoral system if there is enough pressure from outside. This thread is supposed to be about the pros and cons of our electoral system and whether it should be changed, not whether the government will or won’t support it. If no one is interested in electoral reform, let’s just forget it and move on, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 22 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: Which is a major issue. If Parliament holds all of the power over itself how do we ever get reform if it can vote to protect the interest of the ruling party all of the time. This is where pressure groups and public opinion play their part. As I said before, it worked for Brexit. There are already organisations working to bring electoral reform to the fore. There are many MPs who believe that the system needs to be reformed. The LibDems want reform. Farage will be loudly beating that drum. Parliament may well find it has to agree to a review of the electoral system if there is enough pressure from outside. This thread is supposed to be about the pros and cons of our electoral system and whether it should be changed, not whether the government will or won’t support it. If no one is interested in electoral reform, let’s just forget it and move on, eh? Part of potentially 'showing interest' in reform is working out how the process of addressing such reform might occur. Of course Reform UK want it, equally the 2 major parties will fight against it if only to keep Reform on the fringes of power, I'm not sure the LDs are quite so keen on it now as they might have been on July 3rd, The UK already has alternative electoral systems in the devolved assemblies, how well are they received, how well do they work ? ( I truly don't know ). You have to accept that this is far more complicated, politically and constitutionally, than many proponents are suggesting. Yes Brexit was a result of pressure, but much of that was actually pressure on the Conservative Party from within it's own ranks. The pointless AV referendum was a concession to seduce the LD's into propping up the Cameron Government. In both of these cases there was an incentive for the incumbent Government to do something in order to survive. PR is not creating such pressure, and is not likely to do so any time soon. Edited July 15 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West end Saints Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, sadoldgit said: Which is a major issue. If Parliament holds all of the power over itself how do we ever get reform if it can vote to protect the interest of the ruling party all of the time. This is where pressure groups and public opinion play their part. As I said before, it worked for Brexit. There are already organisations working to bring electoral reform to the fore. There are many MPs who believe that the system needs to be reformed. The LibDems want reform. Farage will be loudly beating that drum. Parliament may well find it has to agree to a review of the electoral system if there is enough pressure from outside. This thread is supposed to be about the pros and cons of our electoral system and whether it should be changed, not whether the government will or won’t support it. If no one is interested in electoral reform, let’s just forget it and move on, eh? The Brexit argument will not support any changes, as many politicians could see that it just did not make sense but a simplistic argument won a vote and caused endless problems in parliament, legally, with law enforcement and immigration. I also think Farage will be less significant next election after a few years frustrated on the back benches, realising how infrequently he gets to speak in parliament and running a constituency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 16 Author Share Posted July 16 11 hours ago, West end Saints said: The Brexit argument will not support any changes, as many politicians could see that it just did not make sense but a simplistic argument won a vote and caused endless problems in parliament, legally, with law enforcement and immigration. I also think Farage will be less significant next election after a few years frustrated on the back benches, realising how infrequently he gets to speak in parliament and running a constituency. I’m not so sure about Farage. He is not remotely concerned about running his constituency and will employ some minions to do it for him. He is already heading off to the USA this week in support of Trump. He may be just an MP but he sees himself as a major player on the world stage. He will use this position as a stage just as he did when he was an MEP. The media love him because he fills airtime and news columns. I’m willing to bet that he will get as much attention as the next Tory leader, if not more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) 24 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: I’m willing to bet that he will get as much attention as the next Tory leader, ..... And he will be equally as irrelevant, given Labour's majority. Farage is only concerned with one thing, himself. Edited July 16 by badgerx16 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 16 Author Share Posted July 16 4 hours ago, badgerx16 said: And he will be equally as irrelevant, given Labour's majority. Farage is only concerned with one thing, himself. I don’t disagree that he is only concerned with himself, but he did manage to whip up enough noise to help force Cameron to hold a referendum on Brexit and I don’t think he can be under estimated in the political scene. He manages to make minor issues into major issues and knows how to press buttons. He also knows how to play powerful political games - his late entry into the election race probably did for the Tories more than Starmer’s policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 16 Author Share Posted July 16 Just heard a news report about the Gething resignation. The only other person mentioned in the news report was Farage. 649 other MPs and they quote him on the situation. If anyone is in any doubt about how much attention this bloke gets in the media, this is a prime example of his ability to be heard. Ok Weston, feel free to comment again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 4 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: Just heard a news report about the Gething resignation. The only other person mentioned in the news report was Farage. 649 other MPs and they quote him on the situation. If anyone is in any doubt about how much attention this bloke gets in the media, this is a prime example of his ability to be heard. Ok Weston, feel free to comment again. That's interesting. You went all day without hearing a news report about Trump being shot yet saw this one and have been posting relentless about Farage rather than the 649 other MPs there are. If anyone is in any doubt about how much attention this bloke gets from you, this is a prime example of your obsession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 18 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: Just heard a news report about the Gething resignation. The only other person mentioned in the news report was Farage. 649 other MPs and they quote him on the situation. If anyone is in any doubt about how much attention this bloke gets in the media, this is a prime example of his ability to be heard. Ok Weston, feel free to comment again. R4 interviewed Defence Secretary John Healey. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: R4 interviewed Defence Secretary John Healey. I'm sure they mentioned Farage though right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 18 hours ago, badgerx16 said: R4 interviewed Defence Secretary John Healey. Good for them. I was talking about the LBC news report. This gives the reasons why Starmer’s government might consider PR down the line. https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/17/labour-divided-over-calls-to-scrap-first-past-the-post-after-landslide-win 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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