Proportional Representation?

[sadoldgit]

On 06/07/2024 at 16:56, badgerx16 said:

Would we be happy with perpetual coalitions ? After all, you would still be voting for a single party rather than a selection.

Why not? 21 of the 28 countries in Western Europe employ some kind of PR system. Do we know better than the likes of Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden & Switzerland?

I recall Dr David Owen saying many years ago that if you have a particularly good Chancellor but they are a member of an opposition party, why would you not want to use their knowledge? Starmer has already said that he doesn’t care where the good ideas come from, he isn’t going to partisan when it comes to rebuilding Britain. We lurch from one ideology to another. Surely it is better to do what is right for the country at the time and the future rather than to plough on with political dogma, which is often out of date or at odds with what the particular issue needs at that time.

If the will of the people is spread across three or four main parties, why shouldn’t those voices be heard properly rather than bulldozed over? You can still have a ruling party that calls the shots on final decisions, but wouldn’t it have been so much better for the UK if the Tory government had more accountability when Liz Truss did her best to bankrupt the country? Would we have gone to war in Iraq under a PR system?

A more in depth look at PR systems -

https://fairvote.org/archives/proportional-representation-voting-systems/

Edited 8 July, 2024 by sadoldgit
Typos

[badgerx16]

All of the countries listed above have electoral systems that are less than 120 years old, and for some much more recent, ours is fundamentally the same one we have had since the Georges, allowing for us now having a much broader plebiscite.

If, like them, we were starting from scratch PR might look to be the ideal option, but in the UK FPTP is deeply ingrained, and has been for a very long time.

Edited 8 July, 2024 by badgerx16

[sadoldgit]

That doesn’t mean that it is a good system or that it can’t be changed. If we believe in democracy then FPTP is clearly not very democratic.

I don’t know what the answer is but do believe that an independent body should be commission to look into our electoral system and to make recommendations that should then be put to the country. If FPTP is still the preferred method then at least it is down to the will of the people. It will also be more robust than the previous referendum which was a sham.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/08/disproportionate-uk-election-results-boost-calls-to-ditch-first-past-the-post

[badgerx16]

How many high horses are you trying to ride ?

[Weston Super Saint]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

How many high horses are you trying to ride ?

All of them.

Especially those that know the way to the ivory tower.

[egg]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

That doesn’t mean that it is a good system or that it can’t be changed. If we believe in democracy then FPTP is clearly not very democratic.

I don’t know what the answer is but do believe that an independent body should be commission to look into our electoral system and to make recommendations that should then be put to the country. If FPTP is still the preferred method then at least it is down to the will of the people. It will also be more robust than the previous referendum which was a sham.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/08/disproportionate-uk-election-results-boost-calls-to-ditch-first-past-the-post

Jeez SoG, you're determined I'll give you that. I think you've made your point, and we still ain't getting PR. 

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

That doesn’t mean that it is a good system or that it can’t be changed. If we believe in democracy then FPTP is clearly not very democratic.

It will also be more robust than the previous referendum which was a sham.

 

You harp on and on about democracy, but you seem to have a problem with every democratic referendum that turns up a result you didn't vote for or don't like.

Not very democratic of you is it? 

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

You harp on and on about democracy, but you seem to have a problem with every democratic referendum that turns up a result you didn't vote for or don't like.

Not very democratic of you is it? 

Go and read up about the referendum on PR. It wasn’t actually about PR.

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, egg said:

Jeez SoG, you're determined I'll give you that. I think you've made your point, and we still ain't getting PR. 

The LibDems have been calling for PR for decades. There are organisations in this country who have been pushing for PR for years. I think you will find that more than one bloke on a football forum are pushing for electoral reform, whether we actually get it or not.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Go and read up about the referendum on PR. It wasn’t actually about PR.

Go and read up on democracy.

Maybe you'll accept results you don't like.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Champion of democracy. Right up to the point it doesn't meet his world view. Then it's clearly wrong, and must be changed.

A thread springing forth from "I'm not knocking democracy" before proceeding to do exactly that, and moan on about it endlessly.

From the guy who called someone out for not entering his voting poll. Not that they had to was the follow up. So, why call it out? Very democratic.

Where any democratic vote going in a way they disagree with is a "sham" and where the link to PR given tells us that it's what all the "advanced" nations are doing.

"If we believe in democracy..."

Pathetic.

[sadoldgit]

12 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Champion of democracy. Right up to the point it doesn't meet his world view. Then it's clearly wrong, and must be changed.

A thread springing forth from "I'm not knocking democracy" before proceeding to do exactly that, and moan on about it endlessly.

From the guy who called someone out for not entering his voting poll. Not that they had to was the follow up. So, why call it out? Very democratic.

Where any democratic vote going in a way they disagree with is a "sham" and where the link to PR given tells us that it's what all the "advanced" nations are doing.

"If we believe in democracy..."

Pathetic.

What on earth are you prattling on about? I have made it perfectly clear that there is no perfect system but many believe that there are better systems and that this country should have the opportunity to choose which system it would prefer. Is that not a statement supporting democracy?

As for calling out someone for not voting in the poll, if you are following the narrative that particular poster follows me around and takes great delight in having a dig at my posts. If you go back and read what I posted I made it clear that he had the perfect right not to disclose his voting preference. I just found it typical of him that he didn’t whereas many others did. In fact most of the usual suspects who stalk my posts didn’t. Again, their choice but for those who like to throw stones, it’s a shame they don’t have the balls to stand by their choices when they take great delight in having a go at mine.

You are less of a Holmes and Watson and more of a Mrs Hudson. 

Pathetic, but welcome to the Baby Reindeers.

 

[badgerx16]

On the question of what other countries do, about 8 times as many countries use FPTP than use AV, including, of course, the champion of democracy, the United States of America.

Edited 9 July, 2024 by badgerx16

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

On the question of what other countries do, about 8 times as many countries use FPTP than use AV, including, of course, the champion of democracy, the United States of America.

My understanding is that most countries use a form of PR?

USA, the same champion of democracy that finds it ok to allow a convicted felon to stand for President? Would you like to adopt the US system here?

I was hoping we could have a proper discussion about the pros and cons of electoral systems. 

Perhaps we could have some more contributions about the benefits or otherwise of FPTP and PR?

If you just want to use this thread to give me a kicking, there are plenty of other threads where you can do that.

Thanks.
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

Edited 9 July, 2024 by sadoldgit
Added links

[Baird of the land]

Personally i've always preferred the Single Transferrable vote. 

 

 

 

[badgerx16]

30 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

My understanding is that most countries use a form of PR?

USA, the same champion of democracy that finds it ok to allow a convicted felon to stand for President? Would you like to adopt the US system here?

I was hoping we could have a proper discussion about the pros and cons of electoral systems. 

Perhaps we could have some more contributions about the benefits or otherwise of FPTP and PR?

If you just want to use this thread to give me a kicking, there are plenty of other threads where you can do that.

Thanks.
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

Who is 'giving you a kicking' ? You raised the question of what other countries do, I provided some evidence. No aggression, no barbs. FYI, the US adopted OUR system. The issue of whether Trump should stand is nothing whatsoever to do with the process underpinning their electoral system.

The problem with you at the moment is that you are just getting too damned precious, and other than wanting the informed debate you seemed to invite in the OP you take offence or shoot down anybody who doesn't immediately agree with you.

Edited 9 July, 2024 by badgerx16

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Who is 'giving you a kicking' ? You raised the question of what other countries do, I provided some evidence. No aggression, no barbs. FYI, the US adopted OUR system. The issue of whether Trump should stand is nothing whatsoever to do with the process underpinning their electoral system.

The problem with you at the moment is that you are just getting too damned precious, and other than wanting the informed debate you seemed to invite in the OP you take offence or shoot down anybody who doesn't immediately agree with you.

Finally Badger admits to supporting Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins

[Turkish]

4 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

What on earth are you prattling on about? I have made it perfectly clear that there is no perfect system but many believe that there are better systems and that this country should have the opportunity to choose which system it would prefer. Is that not a statement supporting democracy?

As for calling out someone for not voting in the poll, if you are following the narrative that particular poster follows me around and takes great delight in having a dig at my posts. If you go back and read what I posted I made it clear that he had the perfect right not to disclose his voting preference. I just found it typical of him that he didn’t whereas many others did. In fact most of the usual suspects who stalk my posts didn’t. Again, their choice but for those who like to throw stones, it’s a shame they don’t have the balls to stand by their choices when they take great delight in having a go at mine.

You are less of a Holmes and Watson and more of a Mrs Hudson. 

Pathetic, but welcome to the Baby Reindeers.

 

just to simplifying it for you, in fact to spell out out. Once again you are showing yourself to be a complete hypocrite. Understand now?

 

and the shit baby reindeer gag comes out again because someone else doesn't agree with him 🤡

Edited 9 July, 2024 by Turkish

[badgerx16]

38 minutes ago, whelk said:

Finally Badger admits to supporting Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins

Can I have the t-shirt ?

[Weston Super Saint]

11 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Can I have the t-shirt ?

The "I kicked SoG and all I got was this shit t-shirt" t-shirt?

[badgerx16]

9 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

The "I kicked SoG and all I got was this shit t-shirt" t-shirt?

Kinda spoils it that I didn't actually do any 'kicking'. Would I be claiming credit under false pretense.

[The Kraken]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Kinda spoils it that I didn't actually do any 'kicking'. Would I be claiming credit under false pretense.

I don't think you have to be kicking anybody let alone be a member of the far-right, an islamophobe, a Tommy Robinson / Katie Hopkins fanboy, or even a Tory to be inducted into the Usual Suspects aka the Baby Reindeer Club (arf).

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Who is 'giving you a kicking' ? You raised the question of what other countries do, I provided some evidence. No aggression, no barbs. FYI, the US adopted OUR system. The issue of whether Trump should stand is nothing whatsoever to do with the process underpinning their electoral system.

The problem with you at the moment is that you are just getting too damned precious, and other than wanting the informed debate you seemed to invite in the OP you take offence or shoot down anybody who doesn't immediately agree with you.

Holmes and Watson - either one or the other. As I said on my post, I looking for a normal discussion on the subject. That has nothing to do with being “precious.”

If I had a problem with those who don’t agree with me, why would I post links to sites discussing the pros and cons of both systems?

The only thing I have made my mind up about at the moment is that FPTP is not a very democratic system. Whether it remains in place or is replaced by something else, I am opened to persuasion. 

So far all we have had is the usual BS apart from Lighthouse who has made an argument for FPTP.

If I am getting “precious” it is because pretty much every time I start a thread the same old twats ignore the subject matter and do their best to derail it. Take a look at the first post after my op about the Tory leadership race. Take a look at the number of laughing emojis after my posts on the Israel thread. You don’t suffer fools gladly, why should I?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 9 July, 2024 by sadoldgit

[sadoldgit]

32 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Kinda spoils it that I didn't actually do any 'kicking'. Would I be claiming credit under false pretense.

No one accused you of it.

[Weston Super Saint]

7 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Holmes and Watson - either one or the other. As I said on my post, I looking for a normal discussion on the subject. That has nothing to do with being “precious.”

You are looking for people to agree with your opinion.  You have no interest in anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion, other than calling them a racist, Islamaphobe etc etc.  That is not a 'normal' discussion.

Maybe stick to going for a walk in your local area so you can meet people with identical views to you?

[badgerx16]

9 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

No one accused you of it.

So why say it in response to one of my posts ?

[sadoldgit]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So why say it in response to one of my posts ?

Part of my response was to your post and part was a general comment. My apologies, I should have made that clearer.

Edited 9 July, 2024 by sadoldgit

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Part of my response was to your post and part was a general comment. My apologies, I should have made that clearer.

So I don't get the t-shirt. ;-(

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Baird of the land said:

Personally i've always preferred the Single Transferrable vote. 

 

 

 

I’ve been wading through the various different kinds of PR. It seems like you can bolt on all kinds of extras to any of the systems depending on the requirements of the state? If so, it makes finding something that might get voted in at referendum strait off the bat more difficult. You could also have FPTP and a PR system together! If there were to be a referendum I think finding systems to put on a ballot paper could be a major problem in itself. I guess you could provide several alternatives with a transferable vote do that we ended up with something that would be acceptable to most? 
I don’t recall countries like Australia and New Zealand changing their electoral systems but they must have found ways of dealing with variations and amendments.

[sadoldgit]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So I don't get the t-shirt. ;-(

Oh, ok then.

My wife would probably like one too 😘

Edited 9 July, 2024 by sadoldgit

[whelk]

12 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So I don't get the t-shirt. ;-(

You are just an occasional suspect

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I’ve been wading through the various different kinds of PR. It seems like you can bolt on all kinds of extras to any of the systems depending on the requirements of the state? If so, it makes finding something that might get voted in at referendum strait off the bat more difficult. You could also have FPTP and a PR system together! If there were to be a referendum I think finding systems to put on a ballot paper could be a major problem in itself. I guess you could provide several alternatives with a transferable vote do that we ended up with something that would be acceptable to most? 
I don’t recall countries like Australia and New Zealand changing their electoral systems but they must have found ways of dealing with variations and amendments.

Others go for porn, SOG goes for this

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I’ve been wading through the various different kinds of PR. It seems like you can bolt on all kinds of extras to any of the systems depending on the requirements of the state? If so, it makes finding something that might get voted in at referendum strait off the bat more difficult. You could also have FPTP and a PR system together! If there were to be a referendum I think finding systems to put on a ballot paper could be a major problem in itself. I guess you could provide several alternatives with a transferable vote do that we ended up with something that would be acceptable to most? 
I don’t recall countries like Australia and New Zealand changing their electoral systems but they must have found ways of dealing with variations and amendments.

Unless you  can find a system acceptable to the Tories and Labour we won't be getting a referendum.

[The Kraken]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Unless you  can find a system acceptable to the Tories and Labour we won't be getting a referendum.

There's two scenarios where I can see a PR referendum could happen, and both are unlikely:

1) Labour have an absolutely stonking 5 years in power and can basically campaign for the next election on whatever they want.  They include a PR ref because essentially its a policy that has a lot of support amongst its party members and unions alike.

2) Labour have a hard time of 5 years in power, there's a hung parliament and they need a coalition with the Lib Dems to get in.  The Lib Dems price is a PR ref.

There's zero chance of Labour introducing a PR ref within this parliament IMO.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

A few weeks back, I read the 1st few lines of a standard SOG post. It was full of the usual whataboutery and deflection. I stopped, realising there was no point, as he hasn't learned a thing since he joined here. From the pages of the Guardian, and the mouth of James O'Brien to our screens. I found the ignore function. Having paid the fiver, we were getting a torrent of this stuff, that would make a water utility blush.

My post above was based on watching the responses to the same old approach, and another thread going the same way.  I've managed to be part of a stalking group, when I've got the person I'm stalking on ignore, and can't have responded directly to in a while.

Still, a T-Shirt is a T-Shirt.

I can put screenshots on how the ignore function works for you SOG, as it's something else you regularly struggle with.

[AlexLaw76]

This thread = classic Soggy

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, whelk said:

Others go for porn, SOG goes for this

One day he’s trying to find out what Jews are the next he’s wading through PR on the Internet. This guy is bonkers you just never know what he’s going to do or say next. 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

A few weeks back, I read the 1st few lines of a standard SOG post. It was full of the usual whataboutery and deflection. I stopped, realising there was no point, as he hasn't learned a thing since he joined here. From the pages of the Guardian, and the mouth of James O'Brien to our screens. I found the ignore function. Having paid the fiver, we were getting a torrent of this stuff, that would make a water utility blush.

My post above was based on watching the responses to the same old approach, and another thread going the same way.  I've managed to be part of a stalking group, when I've got the person I'm stalking on ignore, and can't have responded directly to in a while.

Still, a T-Shirt is a T-Shirt.

I can put screenshots on how the ignore function works for you SOG, as it's something else you regularly struggle with.

Don’t worry he claims he’s had me on ignore for years yet still manages to respond directly to me regularly. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Fucking hell, a couple of days away and I see SoG is still fighting the good fight, trying to get more Reform MP’s into parliament. Don’t let the usual suspects grind you down Soggy, more MP’s like Nige & Rupert is good for democracy. 

[sadoldgit]

23 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

This thread = classic Soggy

Have you stopped to think that is because the people who take great delight in derailing threads I am on are doing the same thing here? Perhaps, if you stopped behaving like children we could have some serious discussions.

[The Kraken]

Have you ever stopped to think “maybe it’s me”?

[sadoldgit]

6 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Fucking hell, a couple of days away and I see SoG is still fighting the good fight, trying to get more Reform MP’s into parliament. Don’t let the usual suspects grind you down Soggy, more MP’s like Nige & Rupert is good for democracy. 

This has nothing to do with individual parties. It is about an equitable system of seats gained against votes cast.

On 09/07/2024 at 15:59, badgerx16 said:

Unless you  can find a system acceptable to the Tories and Labour we won't be getting a referendum.

Which is why an independent body needs to be set up to look at it. There is plenty of support amongst Labour MPs and Trades Unions for PR and a strong argument that Labour would do better in that system in a normal election situation (one not skewed by the electorate looking for a change after a long period of governance by a Tory party that ran out of steam and ideas). If Reform stick around and the Tories can sort themselves out they also might see the benefit in a system that wouldn’t cut them so far adrift. The LibDems have a bigger voice now and they will be pushing for it. The issue isn’t going to go away.

[badgerx16]

30 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Which is why an independent body needs to be set up to look at it. There is plenty of support amongst Labour MPs and Trades Unions for PR and a strong argument that Labour would do better in that system in a normal election situation (one not skewed by the electorate looking for a change after a long period of governance by a Tory party that ran out of steam and ideas). If Reform stick around and the Tories can sort themselves out they also might see the benefit in a system that wouldn’t cut them so far adrift. The LibDems have a bigger voice now and they will be pushing for it. The issue isn’t going to go away.

Do you think there is any inclination whatsoever within the new Labour Government to set such an independent commission up ? The only reason we had that pathetic excuse for a PR referendum under David Cameron was that it was a condition set by the LDs for creating the coalition agreement.

[The Kraken]

16 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you think there is any inclination whatsoever within the new Labour Government to set such an independent commission up ? The only reason we had that pathetic excuse for a PR referendum under David Cameron was that it was a condition set by the LDs for creating the coalition agreement.

Labour have historically had much more support for PR than the Tories but they’d be utterly insane to announce any proposal for change now. It would undo some of the political goodwill they have. Plus the British public have just given one of the biggest mandates ever for Labour to get on with the job of governing, so that should be their focus.

Im genuinely not convinced a majority of the public want PR. The AV vote showed how desperately unpopular that was. A referendum would be needed and fuck tgat for now. Also the Lib Dems likely won’t be quite as vocal about PR considering they were less popular nationally than Reform but ended up with 67 more seats than them.

[Turkish]

On 09/07/2024 at 17:31, AlexLaw76 said:

This thread = classic Soggy

Coughing up his fiver has somehow made him even look more of a bellend than before he spent it. That's quite an achievement. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

19 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

The LibDems have a bigger voice now and they will be pushing for it. The issue isn’t going to go away.

No they won’t. If people didn’t vote tactically, they wouldn’t get anywhere near the votes they get under FPTP. 
 

It is gong away. 

[sadoldgit]

21 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you think there is any inclination whatsoever within the new Labour Government to set such an independent commission up ? The only reason we had that pathetic excuse for a PR referendum under David Cameron was that it was a condition set by the LDs for creating the coalition agreement.

Maybe not the current government, but they have a lot of MPs! If the current government can be persuaded that it is in their best interest long term, who knows what might happen. There was a point when we thought that there was unlikely to be a referendum on leaving or staying in the EU. As we have seen, pressure groups can make a difference.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to discuss the merits or otherwise of a different electoral system, not what the present government thinks about it presently.

Edited 11 July, 2024 by sadoldgit

[east-stand-nic]

On 08/07/2024 at 22:48, sadoldgit said:

That doesn’t mean that it is a good system or that it can’t be changed. If we believe in democracy then FPTP is clearly not very democratic.

I don’t know what the answer is but do believe that an independent body should be commission to look into our electoral system and to make recommendations that should then be put to the country. If FPTP is still the preferred method then at least it is down to the will of the people. It will also be more robust than the previous referendum which was a sham.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jul/08/disproportionate-uk-election-results-boost-calls-to-ditch-first-past-the-post

There u go again. Because the result was not your way, it was a sham, where as a result that goes your way is good. Can you not see what a wally you are?

[Fan The Flames]

48 minutes ago, east-stand-nic said:

There u go again. Because the result was not your way, it was a sham, where as a result that goes your way is good. Can you not see what a wally you are?

He probably wasn't talking about the Brexit vote, more likely the 2011 AV referendum, which wasn't the vote on PR that the Lib Dems had been campaigning for.

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, east-stand-nic said:

There u go again. Because the result was not your way, it was a sham, where as a result that goes your way is good. Can you not see what a wally you are?

Can you not see how dumb your replies are? Perhaps get a grown up to read and explain posts before you reply? The referendum wasn’t based on PR. The result is neither here nor there. It was the way the referendum was framed that I take issue with, not the result.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum

Edited 12 July, 2024 by sadoldgit
Added text