General Election 2024 Poll

[east-stand-nic]

23 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Please don’t insult me.

I’m old enough to spot a bullshitting conman when I see one.

Clearly you are not. The mere fact you associate age with a superior view shows you are lacking in any wisdom.

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, east-stand-nic said:

LOL, the solutions are obvious. Do you really need to be told? Rants. LOL. I am just stating the facts but as ever u brainwashed lot refuse to see the possibility of any other way then your own way of thinking. U are not worth debating with as u have no vision other than the one they imprint in to you.

Your facts maybe, but not everybody’s.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, east-stand-nic said:

Clearly you are not. The mere fact you associate age with a superior view shows you are lacking in any wisdom.

Now you’ve insulted me again. Have I ever insulted you?

It appears that my conclusion is justified.

[east-stand-nic]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

Now you’ve insulted me again. Have I ever insulted you?

It appears that my conclusion is justified.

No, I have not insulted you snowflake. I have again stated a fact that you think due to being older than most, your wisdom and thinking is superior. It it not FACT. No insult, just FACT.

[Fan The Flames]

11 minutes ago, east-stand-nic said:

LOL, the solutions are obvious. Do you really need to be told? Rants. LOL. I am just stating the facts but as ever u brainwashed lot refuse to see the possibility of any other way then your own way of thinking. U are not worth debating with as u have no vision other than the one they imprint in to you.

Textbook

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

Textbook

It’s Dune in June

[badgerx16]

13 minutes ago, east-stand-nic said:

No, I have not insulted you snowflake. I have again stated a fact that you think due to being older than most, your wisdom and thinking is superior. It it not FACT. No insult, just FACT.

How is this for clearly demonstrable FACT ; you are a fool of the highest order, who if you actually believe one tenth of the drivel you post, has major issues in coping with reality.

[badgerx16]

11 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

It’s Dune in June

Nah ! Dune was much more believable, and had the odd post worth reading.

[Fan The Flames]

27 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

It’s Dune in June

Dune: Part Two

[Whitey Grandad]

35 minutes ago, east-stand-nic said:

No, I have not insulted you snowflake. I have again stated a fact that you think due to being older than most, your wisdom and thinking is superior. It it not FACT. No insult, just FACT.

No. It’s your FACT and no one else’s.

You are inventing your own form of words to replace mine.

Besides, my wisdom and thinking has always been superior, even when I was young 😊

To get back to the debate, do you think that Farage is not a bullshitting conman?

[tdmickey3]

On 23/06/2024 at 10:45, Whitey Grandad said:

Please don’t insult me.

I’m old enough to spot a bullshitting conman when I see one.

We have ALL spotted the incredible bullshiting mentalist

[sadoldgit]

Not something to be proud of.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/nigel-farage-claims-donald-trump-has-learned-a-lot-from-studying-his-speeches/ar-BB1oLO5Q?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=050986a04ad94426809af0edbae2a8db&ei=15

[Challenger]

I once worked for a company which announced it was intending to redecorate the canteen,the choice of colour was either to be lemon or blue.

Everyone was totally indifferent to either until a rather dislikeable, gobby member of  staff piped up with the comment that it would have to be blue as lemon was a "poof colour".

That made everyone else's mind up and for weeks later the whole site was festooned with graffiti, banners and various other notices all displaying the same simple message, " Vote Lemon ! "

[Whitey Grandad]

7 minutes ago, Challenger said:

I once worked for a company which announced it was intending to redecorate the canteen,the choice of colour was either to be lemon or blue.

Everyone was totally indifferent to either until a rather dislikeable, gobby member of  staff piped up with the comment that it would have to be blue as lemon was a "poof colour".

That made everyone else's mind up and for weeks later the whole site was festooned with graffiti, banners and various other notices all displaying the same simple message, " Vote Lemon ! "

Oops. I think I’d better redecorate my breakfast room.

[sadoldgit]

Perhaps the Greens should change their name to Lemons? 😉

[buctootim]

34 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Oops. I think I’d better redecorate my breakfast room.

It's never too late to come out

[buctootim]

4 hours ago, east-stand-nic said:

No, I have not insulted you snowflake. I have again stated a fact that you think due to being older than most, your wisdom and thinking is superior. It it not FACT. No insult, just FACT.

"I’m old enough to spot a bullshitting conman when I see one"

tbf a mildly dim 10 year old could say the same thing about Farage 

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, buctootim said:

It's never too late to come out

😳

My wife chose the colour. Daffodil Yellow.

[whelk]

11 hours ago, east-stand-nic said:

LOL, the solutions are obvious. Do you really need to be told? Rants. LOL. I am just stating the facts but as ever u brainwashed lot refuse to see the possibility of any other way then your own way of thinking. U are not worth debating with as u have no vision other than the one they imprint in to you.

Is it U or you? Make your fucking mind up

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Is it U or you? Make your fucking mind up

It's actually ewe.

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

It's actually ewe.

Bloody sheeple.

[SotonianWill]

On 21/06/2024 at 18:16, badgerx16 said:

Farage says NATO and the EU provoked the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I wonder if he feels Poland provoked the Germans in 1939.

Hardly a just comparison. NATO expansion clearly did play a part in the Russia-Ukraine war. Clinton should’ve played a larger role in getting Russia onside, instead choosing to continue as enemies. Putin, who said as such in 2008 (that further expansion would lead to his want to invade), was ignored. Farage is right. Farage also says Putin was at fault and a tyrant wanting to invade. The two opinions can go together.

 

Ukrainians I know who have come into my uni have the same opinion as this. 

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

Hardly a just comparison. NATO expansion clearly did play a part in the Russia-Ukraine war. Clinton should’ve played a larger role in getting Russia onside, instead choosing to continue as enemies. Putin, who said as such in 2008 (that further expansion would lead to his want to invade), was ignored. Farage is right. Farage also says Putin was at fault and a tyrant wanting to invade. The two opinions can go together.

 

Ukrainians I know who have come into my uni have the same opinion as this. 

So Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania should have been refused membership of the EU and NATO ? What about Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, and Poland ? The Czech Republic ?

Edited June 27 by badgerx16

[SotonianWill]

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania should have been refused membership of the EU and NATO ?

You can’t seriously be comparing the historical ties between Russia and Ukraine to that of those 3 countries.

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, SotonianWill said:

You can’t seriously be comparing the historical ties between Russia and Ukraine to that of those 3 countries.

No, I am wondering how the "aggressive expansion" of the EU and NATO eastwards might have been stopped, as that is the point of contention. These countries chose to apply, for what reason might the existing members have refused them ?

[SotonianWill]

27 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

No, I am wondering how the "aggressive expansion" of the EU and NATO eastwards might have been stopped, as that is the point of contention. These countries chose to apply, for what reason might the existing members have refused them ?

The 2008 summit I mentioned was specifically on NATO expansion into Ukraine, not states which had decoupled from Russia long before politically - in 2004 and had since joined the EURO. Culturally of course, like I have said, the comparison between their refusal on grounds to joining NATO / EU is completely different to Ukraine, which is still in the Russian sphere of influence (religion, people’s, language; a full century before the countries you cited)

 

Aggressive expansion - though I don’t know where the word “aggressive” came from - would stop if the West would have left the situation alone previously by not consistently calling for Ukraine to join years before. The benefit of Ukraine joining NATO and the EU ceteris paribus is only based on Russia itself - a modern day pseudo-Containment made to antagonise through western influence. What other benefit is there? Would be absurd to believe this is simply because nice nice Ukraine (who reached a record 104/180 on the anti corruption index last year) wish for free markets like the papers and Boris Johnson wish to believe. 

Edited June 27 by SotonianWill

[sadoldgit]

Can you describe any expansionism that hasn’t  been “aggressive” when it comes to the borders of other countries? How do you stand on invading sovereign nations just because they would rather align with the west than Russia? Think back through history. Where does expansionism and nationalistic fervour end? If you think that Putin is the victim here you really need to speak to people who understand what he is doing. There are certain people who will be condemned in history. You can count on the likes of Trump, Putin and Netanyahu not faring well.

[aintforever]

2 hours ago, SotonianWill said:

You can’t seriously be comparing the historical ties between Russia and Ukraine to that of those 3 countries.

But those countries and similar are the NATO ‘expansion’ that old rubber face has been blaming the war on.

If NATO didn’t let these countries join just because they were scared of Russia what sort of message do you think that would have sent to Putin? 

[Picard]

Some opinions on NATO expansion 

https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1700719253685678286

 

[Baird of the land]

Personally, find it odd that discussing Nato expansion to be a factor in putin going to war is considered controversial.

 

[sadoldgit]

What is the main driver here? Putin’s expansionism or NATO’s expansionism?

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/6/9/putin-likens-self-to-tsar-hints-at-russian-territory-expansion

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

Personally, find it odd that discussing Nato expansion to be a factor in putin going to war is considered controversial.

 

Of course it is a factor; Putin wants to restore the Russian Empire, but he has a problem in that the Baltic states turned, as soon as they could, to the West, to thwart any expectations he had that they might be recovered.  Ultimately it is the same reason Finland joined NATO, fearing that if he succeeds in Ukraine he might try to reinstate Russia's north-western territories, which only became independent in 1917. Ukraine was his last hope for glory.

The problem for all the appeasers is that NATO did not aggressively entice these Eastern European states, their collective memory of Russian occupation and oppression made them willing recruits.

[Fan The Flames]

20 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

Personally, find it odd that discussing Nato expansion to be a factor in putin going to war is considered controversial.

 

It's not. What's controversial is how you link NATO expansion to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Is it the fault of the nasty West poking the poor friendly bear or of legacy hungry gaslighting gangsta Putin.

[buctootim]

...

Edited June 29 by buctootim
wrong thread

[Baird of the land]

On 29/06/2024 at 10:20, Fan The Flames said:

It's not. What's controversial is how you link NATO expansion to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Is it the fault of the nasty West poking the poor friendly bear or of legacy hungry gaslighting gangsta Putin.

I don’t think that at all. Putin is ultimately at fault for decision to go to war. More a case of poking a high unpleasant bear with nukes. For instance if the west proposed Taiwan to join nato that might lead to unfortunate consequences in regards china’s response. Hence why there’s a delicate diplomacy about how much support to give Taiwan without triggering a superpower.

Edited June 30 by Baird of the land

[badgerx16]

52 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

I don’t think that at all. Putin is ultimately at fault for decision to go to war. More a case of poking a high unpleasant bear with nukes. For instance if the west proposed Taiwan to join nato that might lead to unfortunate consequences in regards china’s response. Hence why there’s a delicate diplomacy about how much support to give Taiwan without triggering a superpower.

What it Taiwan asked to join ? The issue is NATO didn't go actively recruiting, the eastern European nations wanted to turn their backs on Russia. Should NATO and the EU have refused them ?

[Baird of the land]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

What it Taiwan asked to join ? The issue is NATO didn't go actively recruiting, the eastern European nations wanted to turn their backs on Russia. Should NATO and the EU have refused them ?

I think privately Taiwan would be told it was a complete non starter. So yeah I think they would be told no if they ignored the back channel response and tried to publicly push the issue. 

[badgerx16]

3 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

I think privately Taiwan would be told it was a complete non starter. So yeah I think they would be told no if they ignored the back channel response and tried to publicly push the issue. 

Obviously Taiwan is an exaggeration but the example of the eastern European states is not. Should NATO and the EU have refused their applications ? It's not as if either organisation simply walked in and planted their flags.

Should the West have turned them down and left them to the expansionist plans of Putin ?

Edited June 30 by badgerx16
missing an 's'

[sadoldgit]

4 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

I don’t think that at all. Putin is ultimately at fault for decision to go to war. More a case of poking a high unpleasant bear with nukes. For instance if the west proposed Taiwan to join nato that might lead to unfortunate consequences in regards china’s response. Hence why there’s a delicate diplomacy about how much support to give Taiwan without triggering a superpower.

NATO = North Atlantic Treaty Organisastion.

[badgerx16]

29 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

NATO = North Atlantic Treaty Organisastion.

If you want to be pedantic then the vast majority of members do not have Atlantic coastlines.

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

If you want to be pedantic then the vast majority of members do not have Atlantic coastlines.

I used to watch Saturday Morning Swapshop but was ruled ineligible when I went out one weekend and bought some sweets.   

Edited June 30 by buctootim

[AlexLaw76]

2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

NATO = North Atlantic Treaty Organisastion.

Who knew

[sadoldgit]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Who knew

Clearly not the person who thought that Taiwan could join NATO, but thanks for your contribution.

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

Clearly not the person who thought that Taiwan could join NATO, but thanks for your contribution.

Why can’t they join?

plenty of talk of Australia being a member of sorts

Edited June 30 by AlexLaw76

[egg]

2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

NATO = North Atlantic Treaty Organisastion.

Hungary, that landlocked eastern european country, famed for it's north atlantic coastline. 

Edited June 30 by egg

[sadoldgit]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

Hungary, that landlocked eastern european country, famed for it's north atlantic coastline. 

As you well know, an Atlantic coastline isn’t a requirement. But you won’t find anyone outside Europe and North America as members. My geography isn’t the best but I don’t think that Taiwan are anywhere near the current members states of NATO.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

As you well know, an Atlantic coastline isn’t a requirement. But you won’t find anyone outside Europe and North America as members. My geography isn’t the best but I don’t think that Taiwan are anywhere near the current members states of NATO.

You highlighted the name SoG, despite knowing it doesn't bear any resemblance to the members. Taiwan won't get in though, the US have already been daft enough to promise to have their backs when the Chinese have a crack at them. No need to drag the rest of NATO into that skirmish when it happens. 

[badgerx16]

16 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Clearly not the person who thought that Taiwan could join NATO, but thanks for your contribution.

It was an exaggerated suggestion included to support part of that poster's contribution to the discussion. It was never intended to be serious.

[egg]

18 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Why can’t they join?

plenty of talk of Australia being a member of sorts

They're in the Eurovision so EU and NATO membership should be just around the corner. Bring Israel in too. 

[sadoldgit]

18 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Why can’t they join?

plenty of talk of Australia being a member of sorts

I would have thought you would know this given your stirling service as a submariner.

Article 10 of the North Atlantic treaty sets out how countries can join the alliance. It states that membership is open to any European state in a position to further the principles of this treaty and to contribute to to the security of the North Atlantic area.