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Var to be scrapped??


Barsiem
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7 minutes ago, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

If we do go up we would already have had to deal with it in the Playoff Final. Something to look forward to...

Really? 

That is ridiculous. No VAR all season, but for a 1-off game? ffs

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I think there will be fewer than 14 clubs that vote to see the back of it. It is just something they can do and then turn around to the fans and say ‘well we put it to the vote and clubs wanted to keep it’. 🤷🏽 

Now ask the supporters, I dare them to do a poll on the fans view on VAR or the way VAR is being used, and I am sure it would be up in the 90%’s to get rid of it. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, benali-shorts said:

They'd be better off voting for PGMOL to be scrapped.

Now you’re getting to the root of the issue. What VAR has brought a searing spotlight onto is the complacency, ineptitude, poor concentration, and sloppiness typifying English refereeing. In rugby and cricket, admittedly vastly superior sports these days to football, look at how professionalisation has transformed refereeing. Communication is so much better, in rugby they are miked up, and confident in explaining their decisions. When mistakes do happen, they put their hand up to them which helps enable two-way respect. Look at cricket, the replays are so much faster. It’s no more difficult to work out if a batter has nicked it to the keeper than judging an offside, yet it takes a fraction of the time. Similar for LBWs.

If PGMOL members and the body want to earn any respect, they need to be far more transparent and humble. Then, the focus can be on the clubs and players to clean up their act and show more respect. 

They wont though, too arrogant and complacent. I’d put PGMOL and 75% of the referees on performance management measures for next season, if there’s not a huge improvement they need to be dismissed. We can bring in better from overseas until we train our younger referees to the standards expected.

Edited by Gloucester Saint
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It’s not perfect but I’d much rather have it than not. People seem to have forgotten the regular, blatant dives players used to get away with when they weren’t even touched, amongst many other offences. Conceding a goal to a player who should have been sent off 30 minutes ago (aka the Carroll) was another popular one.

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Posted (edited)

Would be interested to see a poll on here for and against it. I think it would be high percentage against it. We need to be able to celebrate a goal knowing (after a quick nervous look over to the lino) it is a goal. 

Edited by Dr Who?
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I’ve enjoyed the championship this season without VAR and am sick of seeing lines drawn for toenail offsides etc…

I was originally in favour of the idea but it has been very poorly executed!!

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9 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

Would be interested to see a poll on here for and against it. I think it would be high percentage against it. We need to be able to celebrate a goal knowing (after a quick nervous look over to the lino) it is a goal. 

The problem is that it’s a bit too simplistic.

I didn’t find VAR too much of a problem at the Euros, or the World Cup. Because it was done correctly, and decisions were made quickly. There was a reason that zero VAR officials from England made the grade for Qatar; because they’re fucking hopeless at it. Decent officials, different thing.

I still prefer not having it, mind. But at least it does stop the horrendous errors like the League Cup final “offside”, which still burns.

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7 minutes ago, eurosaint said:

I’ve enjoyed the championship this season without VAR and am sick of seeing lines drawn for toenail offsides etc…

I was originally in favour of the idea but it has been very poorly executed!!

Me too. Originally thought it was a good idea, but it has turned out not to be.

In the champs, I enjoy a goal being given as a goal without the angst of it being withdrawn after the var review.

Besides, anybody remember that defeat vs villa couple of years back and var completely fucked it all up anyway? 

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I think this would be a great moment if it happens. The way it's executed in this country is quite simply horrific, they keep trying to tweak it and then make it worse. 

Scrap it for now, don't ditch the idea totally for the future, but it needs to be totally rethought from the ground up if it is to return - probably best for it not handled by washed up English ref's in the future.

I reckon it will stay though - the FA have chucked so much money into VAR, they even have their own purpose built HQ for it all - money will win out and they'll somehow get enough backing to keep it, probably with the promise of 'changes'. (which will just make it worse).

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The concept is excellent, it has been used very well in some international tournaments with speedy and accurate calls and it gets crap referees out of trouble.

But if you get their even crapper referee mates to run it like we do, the whole thing is a farce.

I'm not sure how we've got it so wrong, but if it means not getting robbed in a play-off final, proper use of it should be welcomed.

Unless of course it's someone else getting robbed, then, never mind, swings and roundabouts, you may have lost a Premier League place to a dodgy penalty but you'll get a goal kick sometime next season, so it all evens itself out.

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1 hour ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Now you’re getting to the root of the issue. What VAR has brought a searing spotlight onto is the complacency, ineptitude, poor concentration, and sloppiness typifying English refereeing. In rugby and cricket, admittedly vastly superior sports these days to football, look at how professionalisation has transformed refereeing. Communication is so much better, in rugby they are miked up, and confident in explaining their decisions. When mistakes do happen, they put their hand up to them which helps enable two-way respect. Look at cricket, the replays are so much faster. It’s no more difficult to work out if a batter has nicked it to the keeper than judging an offside, yet it takes a fraction of the time. Similar for LBWs.

If PGMOL members and the body want to earn any respect, they need to be far more transparent and humble. Then, the focus can be on the clubs and players to clean up their act and show more respect. 

They wont though, too arrogant and complacent. I’d put PGMOL and 75% of the referees on performance management measures for next season, if there’s not a huge improvement they need to be dismissed. We can bring in better from overseas until we train our younger referees to the standards expected.

Completely agree. It's amazing how Football chooses to ignore video refereeing / umpiring already in place in other sports. They each have defined processes to their reviews; compare and contrast to "clear and obvious" (what does that even mean??) weird and vague subjective opinions bizarrely applied in football to determine matches. Sky absolutely loves the ongoing debates about refereeing, it keeps football at the top of the media pages and enables hour upon hour of "expert pundit" debates and tribal fan talking heads to fill their channels. Var is criticised, but it's not Var, it's the incompetent lack of process in using the technology.

It's incomprehensible that the refs aren't mic-ed up so that the viewing public can hear their decisions. When they release audio of var incidents, it's a total shambles; pumped up idiots making up their own processes to subjectively make decisions. US sports analyse referees' performances, grade them and pay them accordingly, all done transparently. The best officials are there for all to see, and paid accordingly. PGMOL (let's not forget they're owned by the PL...) on the other hand is a closed shop, owned by the PL and seemingly accountable to no-one. Fans shouldn't wasn't to see var binned (we all want correct decisions and don't want to see matches decided by wrong decisions); we should want to see PGMOL and its officials transparently explaining decisions and improving their processes to take subjectivity out of their decision-making, and being held accountable for their on-pitch performances. Pay the referees more, attract the best referees from around the world and measure their performance. i.e. like every other industry in the world, except football officialdom....

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Pundits, broadcasters and newspapers.will still moan about poor decisions and claim 'something must be done' and the circle will continue.

Despite what happened in the Bayern Real game when the lino flagged for offside too early towards the end of the match {he apologised for fucking it up) a pundit at the very next game was moaning about a lino not flagging early enough.

The constant moaning by the media and the over analysis of refs mistakes after the game by the Sky studio team got us into this mess.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Dr Who? said:

Would be interested to see a poll on here for and against it. I think it would be high percentage against it. We need to be able to celebrate a goal knowing (after a quick nervous look over to the lino) it is a goal. 

Yep that's the biggest negative by far that outweighs any benefits for me. This year has been like a breath of fresh air being able to properly celebrate without having to stop yourself and waiting every single time. One proposal that is better than now is to have two challenges per team per half which isn't perfect but should stop most clear and obvious errors. Anything that is too close to tell with the naked eye leave it as the refs decision. 

Edited by hypochondriac
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Yep that's the biggest negative by far that outweighs any benefits for me. This year has been like a breath of fresh air being able to properly celebrate without having to stop yourself and waiting every single time. One proposal that is better than now is to have two challenges per team per half which isn't perfect but should stop most clear and obvious errors. Anything that is too close to tell with the naked eye leave it as the refs decision. 

Yep, that's the way I always thought it should work too. 

- Goal-line technology: all good

- Offsides: next season they're bringing in the semi-automated system which seemed to work really well in the Euros, so happy for that to be given a chance to succeed

- Literally everything else: a limited two or three challenge system, with a proper, consistent and agreed step-by-step review process and everything between the on-field ref and the VAR done over the mic/ loudspeaker and big screens so the crowd can see and hear it, as per the cricket and rugby where they use it in a proper and transparent way.

In it's current state it's not fit for purpose and should be scrapped. Not that it will be. 

 

Edited by Midfield_General
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4 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

Yep, that's the way I always thought it should work too. 

- Goal-line technology: all good

- Offsides: next season they're bringing in the semi-automated system which seemed to work really well in the Euros, so happy for that to be given a chance to succeed

- Literally everything else: a limited two or three challenge system, with a proper, consistent and agreed step-by-step review process and everything between the on-field ref and the VAR done over the mic/ loudspeaker and big screens so the crowd can see and hear it, as per the cricket and rugby where they use it in a proper and transparent way.

In it's current state it's not fit for purpose and should be scrapped. Not that it will be. 

 

Good post. The way you describe it, you wouldn't need any particular skill to operate VAR as anything subjective is referees decision so they would simply be dealing with obvious rickets. Automate offside as much as possible and make the decision immediately and it cuts out any delays and you can mostly celebrate goals again. I'd be in favour of it in those circumstances. 

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9 hours ago, benali-shorts said:

Completely agree. It's amazing how Football chooses to ignore video refereeing / umpiring already in place in other sports. They each have defined processes to their reviews; compare and contrast to "clear and obvious" (what does that even mean??) weird and vague subjective opinions bizarrely applied in football to determine matches. Sky absolutely loves the ongoing debates about refereeing, it keeps football at the top of the media pages and enables hour upon hour of "expert pundit" debates and tribal fan talking heads to fill their channels. Var is criticised, but it's not Var, it's the incompetent lack of process in using the technology.

It's incomprehensible that the refs aren't mic-ed up so that the viewing public can hear their decisions. When they release audio of var incidents, it's a total shambles; pumped up idiots making up their own processes to subjectively make decisions. US sports analyse referees' performances, grade them and pay them accordingly, all done transparently. The best officials are there for all to see, and paid accordingly. PGMOL (let's not forget they're owned by the PL...) on the other hand is a closed shop, owned by the PL and seemingly accountable to no-one. Fans shouldn't wasn't to see var binned (we all want correct decisions and don't want to see matches decided by wrong decisions); we should want to see PGMOL and its officials transparently explaining decisions and improving their processes to take subjectivity out of their decision-making, and being held accountable for their on-pitch performances. Pay the referees more, attract the best referees from around the world and measure their performance. i.e. like every other industry in the world, except football officialdom....

No we’re getting to the nub of it. Americanisation of “The Beautiful Game”.

And our referees are not crap, or useless, or incompetent, they just see things differently.

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22 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Good post. The way you describe it, you wouldn't need any particular skill to operate VAR as anything subjective is referees decision so they would simply be dealing with obvious rickets. Automate offside as much as possible and make the decision immediately and it cuts out any delays and you can mostly celebrate goals again. I'd be in favour of it in those circumstances. 

That’s what offsides need. A decision almost before the ball hits the net. It should be as instant as a flag would be.

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11 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

It’s not perfect but I’d much rather have it than not. People seem to have forgotten the regular, blatant dives players used to get away with when they weren’t even touched, amongst many other offences. Conceding a goal to a player who should have been sent off 30 minutes ago (aka the Carroll) was another popular one.

That’s a great point.  If you get caught trying to con the ref it should be a red card.


The ref’s job would be so much easier if players weren’t such cheats.

Offsides should be quicker with VAR next season.  

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16 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That’s what offsides need. A decision almost before the ball hits the net. It should be as instant as a flag would be.

There's a new technology being trialed for offside next season.

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If the vote is by club managers, it will be scrap it. How many managers have come out in serious criticism of VAR. Loads. I can think off the top of my head Wolves, Forest, Brighton managers all very pee'd off with is. If it is down to club owners/boards then of course it will survive as money will be involved. In no way in its present format has it improved the game at all, plus it undermines ref's and puts them under more pressure than they already were.

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I was a keen advocate of VAR ... especially as when lower level teams  " lose " games to dubious / ignored decisions 

so that the big clubs can get the points to qualify for Europe , whilst  " the other clubs"  can wallow in the midtable

morass where nothing " important " and nothing happens from one season to the next.

 

Off-the-ball incidents are often ignored - except in those cases like Ryan Bertrand's red card in the 0-9 game at SMS 

or dubious penalty shouts that should be observed ..and are most often ignored.  More than bad luck if it means relegation for someone.

It may not matter in a game where nothing is at stake , but it's a catastrophe for a club who ends up relegated because of a wrong decision. 

 

The lack of VAR  cost us the League Cup Final v.  Man Utd. Ibrahimovitch was offside ... and scored, but Gabbiadini was not, but he did score.

The current rulings mean a player is offside if his arm is outstretched, but as an arm is "an illegal limb"  to score with - then why is he penalised? 

..also players with their back to goal have no advantage over defenders, but Danny Ings' sleeve was not part of his body, but his kit.   Nonsense.

 

I know , I know .. it's down to " swings and roundabouts " they all say, but if the wrong decisions come in important games it makes a big difference. 

Without VAR we see there is no such thing as a " neutral referee". They are all born " somewhere " and are frustrated players who neve made the grade.

The real nonsense is that millions of fans can see the real decisions simply by watching TV.     Who needs VAR when there is Sky Sports.?  

 

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Posted (edited)

Here's how the semi-automated offside technology works btw.

Properly thought-out use of technology to provide a near instant decision, factoring in the experience of the fans in the stadium: 

 

Edited by Midfield_General
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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

Here's how the semi-automated offside technology works btw.

Properly thought-out use of technology to provide a near instant decision, factoring in the experience of the fans in the stadium: 

 

That video also nicely highlights why the current system and process used by the Premier League for offside decisions isn't fit for purpose, i.e. it isn't suitable for marignal decisions due to video frame rates. Which begs the question why the PL ever sanctioned the use of such a flawed system in the first place....

Edited by trousers
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Posted (edited)

VAR is far from perfect but I think I still prefer it from some of the decisions we had prior to it. They need to look at how it is implemented in World Cups and in Europe because it doesn't seem to be as much of an interference when they use it.

The worst part of it is when the get the ref to go over to the side of the pitch to look at the video. The VAR ref should just make the call and tell the bloke on the pitch if it is right or wrong IMO. There should also be a time limit as in Cricket, if it needs to be studied over and over in minute detail then it is not clear an obvious. Offsides - they should just draw a big fat line and any doubt goes in the favour of the attacker.

One thing Var has shown is how awful at making the correct decisions the on-field officials are. It is near on impossible for some bloke running down the line (often not in-line with the attacker) to look at the moment the ball is kicked and the position of the striker/defenders at the same time and make the correct call. Same goes for the ref on the pitch, trying to make the correct call whilst desperately trying to keep up with athletes, looking through a crowd of players and being shouted at by thousands of biased supporters.

Edited by aintforever
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VAR is crap. I have far preferred this season without it.  I far prefer the system before where sometimes the ref was right, sometimes wrong, that's football and it creates that post match discussion / laugh / annoyance.  VAR just ruins the flow of a match, ruins a celebration and is STILL prone to the same crap errors.

Get rid, bye.

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The bit that should be scrapped is offside. Offside was never meant to be objective down to the nearest millimetre, it was supposed to stop attackers gaining an unfair advantage by being noticeably (by a linesman) In front of the defender(s). Now players  can be offside with their back to goal, absolute stupidity. Just leave it up to lineos to decide if a player is clearly in an offside position when the ball is played and is gaining an advantage. No need for lines to be drawn or to stop playing. OK, there will be some mistakes made, but nothing like as bad as the mistakes that are effectively being made by using a curate measurements to decide something that should have a subjective element.

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VAR could instantly be improved with 2 changes. Firstly a 60 second limit on reviews for handballs and fouls, if it takes that long it’s not a clear and obvious error, and secondly with offsides if the lines have to touch to prove they’re offside then benefit of the doubt is given to the attacker. There should be daylight between those lines to be considered offside for me.

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45 minutes ago, aintforever said:

The worst part of it is when the get the ref to go over to the side of the pitch to look at the video. The VAR ref should just make the call and tell the bloke on the pitch if it is right or wrong IMO. 

This is probably the single biggest improvement they could make.  Stop acting like the guy running about the pitch and seeing things at crap angles is best placed to make decisions and overrule them like what happens in cricket.  The worst thing about the pitch side monitor is that the ref always changes his mind in line with the VAR official anyway, so what's the point?

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You can’t put the genie back in the bottle, I’d be amazed if it got scrapped. 
 

The main problem with it is this ridiculous “re refereeing the game” pony. They’re obsessed with it, so instead of judging a decision based on its merits, VAR has to decide how bad the error was. They don’t do this with other officials. If the lino thinks it’s a penalty, he indicates a penalty. His thought process isn’t “I think it’s a penalty, but it’s not an horrendous mistake  by the ref so will let it go”. What’s wrong with VAR saying “I think it’s a penalty, go and have a look”, whats wrong with VAR saying “I’d have sent him off, go and have a look”. This artificial measure they’ve put in place to protect the on field decision, causes confused & muddled decision making  imo. It should be clear and concise, the ref will still ultimately decide once he’s watched it. 

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It won't get scrapped given that it's also used in European and International football. 

However, the protocols clearly need improving and as others have said, the transparency, professionalism and attitude of the refereeing body also needs to be improved.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You can’t put the genie back in the bottle, I’d be amazed if it got scrapped. 
 

The main problem with it is this ridiculous “re refereeing the game” pony. They’re obsessed with it, so instead of judging a decision based on its merits, VAR has to decide how bad the error was. They don’t do this with other officials. If the lino thinks it’s a penalty, he indicates a penalty. His thought process isn’t “I think it’s a penalty, but it’s not an horrendous mistake  by the ref so will let it go”. What’s wrong with VAR saying “I think it’s a penalty, go and have a look”, whats wrong with VAR saying “I’d have sent him off, go and have a look”. This artificial measure they’ve put in place to protect the on field decision, causes confused & muddled decision making  imo. It should be clear and concise, the ref will still ultimately decide once he’s watched it. 

Personally getting the VAR involved to tell the ref to go and have another look doesn't solve anything. A big part of the problem is waiting around whilst the ref is sent to go and look at replays on a monitor. For me everything is the referees decision unless offsides can be automated so it gives an instant answer and unless there's a real howler that needs to be overturned for some reason in which case the VAR can just say into an earpiece what should happen. We should definitely go back to linesman flagging for infringements rather than doing nothing and then making everyone look at the ref before celebrating. For me that's the absolute killer and why this year has been miles better. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

We should definitely go back to linesman flagging for infringements rather than doing nothing and then making everyone look at the ref before celebrating. For me that's the absolute killer and why this year has been miles better. 

The problem with linos flagging is it will result in legitimate goals being ruled out. So all VAR will do is disallow goals where the Lino has missed the offside or foul. It won’t allow play to continue when the Lino’s mistake is flagging when it wasnt a foul or offside. 

Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

Offside was never meant to be objective down to the nearest millimetre, it was supposed to stop attackers gaining an unfair advantage by being noticeably (by a linesman) In front of the defender(s).

This is it in a nutshell. They are trying to use VAR to solve a problem that doesn't exist. You're totally right: people have lost sight of why the offside rule exists in the first place, i.e. to prevent strikers taking the piss, which a lino is quite capable of deducing with the human eye. Measuring it to the nearest millimetre is missing the point entirely.

Edited by trousers
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25 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

a 60 second limit on reviews for handballs and fouls, if it takes that long it’s not a clear and obvious error

Yep, I've always said that. I'd even go to 30 seconds. That's plenty of time to work out if there's a "clear and obvious" error.

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In rugby the ref is miked up and clearly in charge. He asks what he wants checked it is put up on the screen and everyone can hear the conversation.

In football the VAR team are in charge which undermines the refs. The idea of VAR is good but the execution is terrible. Had we had VAR at the LC Final then Gabbiadinis first goal would have stood.

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4 hours ago, trousers said:

That video also nicely highlights why the current system and process used by the Premier League for offside decisions isn't fit for purpose, i.e. it isn't suitable for marignal decisions due to video frame rates. Which begs the question why the PL ever sanctioned the use of such a flawed system in the first place....

Nonsense. The "frame rate" of the human eye is only around 10 fps, so VAR's 50 fps is way better than human eye capability.

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