WBA 0-0 Saints - SF 1st Leg Match Thread

[DT]

McCarthy and penalty kicks. *shudders*

[VectisSaint]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

That's nonsense, they should be practiced over and over by the whole team so that when they step up under pressure they don't even have to think about where they are going to put it.

Le Tiss was the best penalty taker the Prem has ever seen and I remember watching him practice them before games at the Milton End all the time. If practicing helped him I'm pretty sure the likes of Ryan Manning would benefit from it.  

How do you know for sure that practicing helped him? Perhaps he would have scored them all anyway.

[VectisSaint]

34 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

I don’t know what all this chatter about penalties is, it will be at least 5-2 in Saints favour over the two legs.

And the Final?

[Toussaint]

9 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

And the Final?

Good point, I was target- fixating on annihilating WBA, we can start practicing when we have brushed them aside, gio1saints may accept that as a reasonable compromise?

Edited May 7 by Toussaint

[Turkish]

7 hours ago, gio1saints said:

Sports Psychology is not really all that hard to understand - even I have a Uni qualification in it- @CB Fry but your ignorance of its obvious applications and your standard abusive response says more about you than you probably wished to reveal. 

 

 

Edited May 7 by Turkish

[gio1saints]

7 hours ago, trousers said:

I think I preferred the 'sanctimonious but had a valid underlying point' version of gio1saints. Not so keen on this 'talking gibberish' incarnation...

 

6 hours ago, trousers said:

You can get a degree in "Sports Psychology"....? Is that the 21st century equivalent of "Media Studies"...?

@trousers very Funny. Like I said- it’s a classic dog whistle topic. 

This “practising penalties” thing- is it just for the “penalty takers” or do you reckon the keepers should get some “saving penalties practice”  too? Presumably if you are going to practise scoring then 50% of the equation is how many penalties are saved - so it’s pretty damn important to practise that too I would have thought? 

 Does Alex get to practice saves with the nominated takers or does he get the others ? Because if he saves a load it’s bad for the takers / good for him but if he fails to save it’s good for the takers : bad for him?
And how do you recreate the fact that the eyes of the world and hundreds of millions of pounds are at stake for a save or a goal at that point? Seriously how do you “ practice” that? Anyone can kick a ball into the goals down the park from the spot. 
 

[Sheaf Saint]

2 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

 

@trousers very Funny. Like I said- it’s a classic dog whistle topic. 

This “practising penalties” thing- is it just for the “penalty takers” or do you reckon the keepers should get some “saving penalties practice”  too? Presumably if you are going to practise scoring then 50% of the equation is how many penalties are saved - so it’s pretty damn important to practise that too I would have thought? 

 Does Alex get to practice saves with the nominated takers or does he get the others ? Because if he saves a load it’s bad for the takers / good for him but if he fails to save it’s good for the takers : bad for him?
And how do you recreate the fact that the eyes of the world and hundreds of millions of pounds are at stake for a save or a goal at that point? Seriously how do you “ practice” that? Anyone can kick a ball into the goals down the park from the spot. 
 

Maybe Alex can practice his diving/saving, while simultaneously giving feedback and advice to the less experienced takers about where they should be putting their shots to make it less likely they will be saved.

Just a thought. I fail to see how there is any downside to dedicating a chunk of the training time to that.

Edited May 7 by Sheaf Saint

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

 

@trousers very Funny. Like I said- it’s a classic dog whistle topic. 

This “practising penalties” thing- is it just for the “penalty takers” or do you reckon the keepers should get some “saving penalties practice”  too? Presumably if you are going to practise scoring then 50% of the equation is how many penalties are saved - so it’s pretty damn important to practise that too I would have thought? 

 Does Alex get to practice saves with the nominated takers or does he get the others ? Because if he saves a load it’s bad for the takers / good for him but if he fails to save it’s good for the takers : bad for him?
And how do you recreate the fact that the eyes of the world and hundreds of millions of pounds are at stake for a save or a goal at that point? Seriously how do you “ practice” that? Anyone can kick a ball into the goals down the park from the spot. 
 

If elite sport is doing a high skilled activity in a high stressed environment, then you need to first master the high skilled activity. Then the sports psychology is turning the high stressed environment into an ordinary environment. Both elements require practice.

[Dark Munster]

4 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Don’t we? That’s news to me.

Bobby Robson literally was asking who fancied taking one. Batty stepped up and missed, and later said he’d never practiced.

The first English manager who took penalties seriously was Venables, who had 5 players well prepared. Unfortunately he neglected to realise it could go to a 6th player. Southgate was that 6th player taking one against Germany in the Euro semi final, who missed of course.

Southgate does have the squad practice, presumably after his personal experience mentioned above.

Germany lost a Euro final against the Czechs many decades ago on penalties. They learnt their lesson there and then and have been masters ever since. Compare our pathetic record versus theirs. We could learn a lot from ze Germans. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

How can there be time to practice penalties, when we don't give them the ball until a Friday afternoon, to keep 'em hungry? 🙂

[northam soul]

Surely penalties would mean the player taking it would need to pass the ball forward.

Thats definitely going to need a complete reset in training 😁

[Appy]

Looks like no Adams in training today. 

[northam soul]

5 minutes ago, Appy said:

Looks like no Adams in training today. 

Probably precautionary bla bla bla but if he was injured for the weekend do we think Stewart will be given a start.

Highly unlikely I would imagine but that really throws a spanner in the works.

 

[trousers]

45 minutes ago, Appy said:

Looks like no Adams in training today. 

A "slight knock" probably....

[Kenilworthy]

Going back to the Chris Nicholl era we had a problem with missing penalties. So he got in a specialist penalty coach from Holland. We then went a long time without missing - that did include the MLT era, but also Dodd.

[Sheaf Saint]

34 minutes ago, trousers said:

A "slight knock" probably....

He's "close", no doubt.

[Dark Munster]

20 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

He's "close", no doubt.

Should be fit by the fourth match.

[Pamplemousse]

7 hours ago, saint lard said:

Training taking place at St Mary’s today. Isn’t that a tad unusual?

It shows the opposition that we fear playing at St Mary's if we have to train there

[Badger]

2 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

 

Southgate does have the squad practice, presumably after his personal experience mentioned above.

Germany lost a Euro final against the Czechs many decades ago on penalties. They learnt their lesson there and then and have been masters ever since. Compare our pathetic record versus theirs. We could learn a lot from ze Germans. 

Could have fooled me v Italy.

 

[Charlie Wayman]

4 hours ago, Toussaint said:

I don’t know what all this chatter about penalties is, it will be at least 5-2 in Saints favour over the two legs.

I think the greater concern is for Wembley if all even AET.

[S-Clarke]

14 hours ago, gio1saints said:

The squad diligently “practising penalties” ahead of such matches cos it’s helpful in the event of a penalty shootout is one of the most popular dog whistle football myths going. 

What it actually does is identify that one or two of them are capable - and the rest should never be allowed to take them. That’s why the team always has a nominated taker and a back up taker( or two) if he’s not on the pitch. 

The team that lets it be known it is  “practising penalties” are psychologically conditioning themselves NOT TO WIN in normal time. 

If I hear that the opposition are “practising penalties” I’m delighted. It’s a sign of fear and weakness. 

I absolutely DO NOT want to have RM tell us the team are practising practising penalties. I want to hear WBA are however. 
 

 

Not sure what you're getting at here gio.

If we're not practicing penalties then it's negligent, arrogant or whatever you want to call it. We are effectively now in a cup knock out competition of which penalties can decide the outcome between £0 and £180m - we better be bloody well practicing!

[Wade Garrett]

Sports Psychology is proven.  Shankly, Paisley, Ferguson, McMenemy, Robson and Ramsey all had degrees in Sports Psychology.

 

[CB Fry]

Turns out Kyren Wilson didn't bother practicing that snooker at all for the last month.

After all, you can't recreate the pressure of the World Final at the Crucible so why bother.

Click the link to read the rest of my Sports Psychology Degree paper.

[CB Fry]

4 hours ago, gio1saints said:

 

@trousers very Funny. Like I said- it’s a classic dog whistle topic. 

This “practising penalties” thing- is it just for the “penalty takers” or do you reckon the keepers should get some “saving penalties practice”  too? Presumably if you are going to practise scoring then 50% of the equation is how many penalties are saved - so it’s pretty damn important to practise that too I would have thought? 

 Does Alex get to practice saves with the nominated takers or does he get the others ? Because if he saves a load it’s bad for the takers / good for him but if he fails to save it’s good for the takers : bad for him?
And how do you recreate the fact that the eyes of the world and hundreds of millions of pounds are at stake for a save or a goal at that point? Seriously how do you “ practice” that? Anyone can kick a ball into the goals down the park from the spot. 
 

You'd have thought the whole "practicing penalties" thing would involve the goalkeepers practicing saving them but you've got a degree so you must kno beta

[Chez]

6 hours ago, DT said:

McCarthy and penalty kicks. *shudders*

he's only ever saved 3 pens, 28 conceded. Pretty poor. For comparison, Kelvin Davis saved 11, conceded 50.

Our friend Angus Gunn has saved 5, conceded 24.

[Midfield_General]

'If you practice things, you get better at them'

Is that really being argued against? 

[Appy]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

he's only ever saved 3 pens, 28 conceded. Pretty poor. For comparison, Kelvin Davis saved 11, conceded 50.

Our friend Angus Gunn has saved 5, conceded 24.

Saved a couple in a shootout last season didn’t he? Against Sheffield Wednesday.

[Dusic]

No Adams would be a huge miss, especially against a physical side like WBA. 

No chance Stewart will be starting a game soon so would either be Arma or Mara up top which is a big drop off.

RM does have a habit of downplaying injuries and it did seem like CA was genuinely injured rather than coming off as a precaution.

[niceandfriendly]

22 hours ago, gio1saints said:

The squad diligently “practising penalties” ahead of such matches cos it’s helpful in the event of a penalty shootout is one of the most popular dog whistle football myths going. 

What it actually does is identify that one or two of them are capable - and the rest should never be allowed to take them. That’s why the team always has a nominated taker and a back up taker( or two) if he’s not on the pitch. 

The team that lets it be known it is  “practising penalties” are psychologically conditioning themselves NOT TO WIN in normal time. 

If I hear that the opposition are “practising penalties” I’m delighted. It’s a sign of fear and weakness. 

I absolutely DO NOT want to have RM tell us the team are practising practising penalties. I want to hear WBA are however. 
 

 

Tell us you know nothing about football, without telling us you know nothing about football.

[niceandfriendly]

5 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

'If you practice things, you get better at them'

Is that really being argued against? 

It's a dog whistle. 😂

[wild-saint]

On 21/04/2024 at 08:15, david in sweden said:

.....yet good enough  to manage a side that can go 20+ games unbeaten with a half-a-team of borrowed players.    Not  that bad surely ?

 

14 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Maybe Alex can practice his diving/saving, while simultaneously giving feedback and advice to the less experienced takers about where they should be putting their shots to make it less likely they will be saved.

Just a thought. I fail to see how there is any downside to dedicating a chunk of the training time to that.

You mean after every missed / saved shot he shouts “next time put it in the bottom corner”?

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

A bit of a balls ache for those driving at the weekend - I remember road works adding to the miserable trip back from Derby after the midweek playoff semi. A positive result this time would help, of course.

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24304406.southampton-fc-fans-hit-a34-closure-west-brom-match/

[Toussaint]

8 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

'If you practice things, you get better at them'

Is that really being argued against? 

I believe so, but I’m not 100% certain, sometimes the arguments here are just too high brow for me, so I have to take a step back for fear of exposing my lack of education in such matters.

[Miltonaggro]

11 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

Sports Psychology is proven.  Shankly, Paisley, Ferguson, McMenemy, Robson and Ramsey all had degrees in Sports Psychology.

 

Brian Clough’s was in Geology, always the maverick! 

[david in sweden]

19 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

I can't find a quote/link, but Glenn Hoddle famously said he wouldn't get the players practicing penalties in 1998, where we got knocked out by Argentina on penalties.

...and further condemned England to an early exit by failing to include MLT in the squad ..(a player he left out because MLT (reputedly) refused to sign for Spurs), 

but who had a 99% success rate with converting penalty kicks.      Yeah sure! .... good call Glenn. 

[david in sweden]

15 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Maybe Alex can practice his diving/saving, while simultaneously giving feedback and advice to the less experienced takers about where they should be putting their shots to make it less likely they will be saved.

Just a thought. I fail to see how there is any downside to dedicating a chunk of the training time to that.

.. .and might even be valuable in teaching " the occasional scorers in the side "  to keep the ball down instead of pumping shots into Row Z. 

[Wade Garrett]

10 hours ago, Chez said:

he's only ever saved 3 pens, 28 conceded. Pretty poor. For comparison, Kelvin Davis saved 11, conceded 50.

Our friend Angus Gunn has saved 5, conceded 24.

I saved 11 out of 12 one season.  I’m available for coaching if required.

[malcolm waldron]

Anyone know if Broosky will be cup-tied for this one - or does that only apply in the 'regular season'.....?

[chownie20]

6 minutes ago, malcolm waldron said:

Anyone know if Broosky will be cup-tied for this one - or does that only apply in the 'regular season'.....?

Its not a cup - its an extension of the league, so all loanees should be fine.

[JRM]

Watched the Bolton fans celebrating on the pitch after getting through against Barnsley last night, I never really understand that. Sure its nice to get to Wembley but not promoted yet always seems a bit over the top mobbing the players with the final still to go. 

[Fan The Flames]

3 minutes ago, chownie20 said:

Its not a cup - its an extension of the league, so all loanees should be fine.

You would think that the playoffs are included in the loan period, we wouldn't be that stupid, would we.

[spyinthesky]

Odds on at least one game will go to penalties.
Can we put Rickie and MLT on the bench, just in case

[The Curse of St Mary's]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

You would think that the playoffs are included in the loan period, we wouldn't be that stupid, would we.

Loans are now dated until the beginning of the next registration period. 

[Charlie Wayman]

12 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

'If you practice things, you get better at them'

Is that really being argued against? 

10,000 times and you're an expert apparently.

[Charlie Wayman]

2 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

I saved 11 out of 12 one season.  I’m available for coaching if required.

Was that in 5 a side with 6ft wide goals?

[Noodles34]

12 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

'If you practice things, you get better at them'

Is that really being argued against? 

practise doesn't make perfect

It makes permanent

[bender]

I know it's tempting fate but does anyone know what time the final kicks off at should we get there.  I know it's 26/5 but I cant find what time it is.  Still says TBA on https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13120822/efl-play-offs-fixtures-dates-and-schedule-for-championship-league-one-and-league-two

[gio1saints]

19 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

If elite sport is doing a high skilled activity in a high stressed environment, then you need to first master the high skilled activity. Then the sports psychology is turning the high stressed environment into an ordinary environment. Both elements require practice.

FWIW :  most of you incredulous or even some outraged (😂) about my views on penalty practice and especially on my wanting to hear WBA are practising pens but not wanting to hear that from Saints are not really getting my point. 
 

Practising can turn something from explicit learning ( you learn how to take a corner ) to implicit learning ( your body instinctively knows what shape to make what muscle fibres to activate in what order to perform the corner kick). 
Practise is great for that. 

In technical terms,  for those who are interested ( put this down now if you hate tech stuff) I am more interested in the emotional and psychological conditioning effect of preparing for pens. I’m sure most of you have experienced that sensation where you know you must or must not do something and focus so hard on not doing it ( let’s say, not hit the ball straight at the keeper weakly in a penalty shootout) that - inevitably- you end up doing it.

Focusing so hard on penalties when we do not want penalties may have the unfortunate side effect of making penalties happen.  Penalties only happen if you don’t beat your opponent in normal time. Saints are better than WBA. We should be beating them over two matches in normal time. I do not want to encourage anything that undermines that conviction. 

Even more interestingly for me though is another reason why training for penalties to me is not all that useful : 

Perception of what’s going on in a players head during a match via his senses ( sight sound touch etc) reach the thalamus first and from there to the neocortex and thence the info is processed and hey presto action occurs. This happens super fast because of both explicit and implicit learning. 
However there is an even faster pathway that goes straight to something called the Amygdala which screens the infor for signs of DANGER. It does this milliseconds fractions faster than the other pathway because safety is hardwired into us evolutionarily. 

When Ryan Manning steps up for his penalty undoubtedly his implicit and explicit learning will kick in - because he has “ practised penalties” so he will choose a spot and not change his mind snd his body will do all the right things in the right order to execute the shot. Except that the Amygdala has got there milliseconds faster than the training and told him this is a shit scary situation and to gtf out of there. It’s what turns players legs to jelly in shootouts. 
Certain players can handle it, most cannot. Smashing the crap out the ball is the typical response of some players to that fear - but many just go feeble despite “practise”. 
 

It’s not the penalty kick that they should be practising. It’s the emotional response to extremely high stress situations. And sadly that’s virtually impossible to recreate in this instance - a £500mil pound rest of your career success or failure shot at goal from the penalty spot - in Front of 100 million worldwide viewers plus your mum dad wife and kids teammates. Your whole life in one kick. Doing it at Staplewood for £100 bets with your mates is not the same. Cannot be. Practise getting your head right much more important. Use the knowledge that WBA are scared they cannot win and ARE practising as your incentive to win in normal play.

Im not really against practising pens. But honestly, it’s not really all that much use to the players- it’s more for some fans reassurance than anything else. No need to get outraged at me or shout personal abuse. Although of course in doing so you are exactly showing what im explaining - emotional responses kick in faster than intellectual. Despite age and maturity and no doubt plenty of practise the emo response can still make you look like a thick foul mouthed thug when you probably are not. 😁

Edited May 8 by gio1saints

[trousers]

33 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Perception of what’s going on in a players head during a match via his senses ( sight sound touch etc) reach the thalamus first and from there to the neocortex and thence the info is processed and hey presto action occurs. This happens super fast because of both explicit and implicit learning. 
However there is an even faster pathway that goes straight to something called the Amygdala which screens the infor for signs of DANGER. It does this milliseconds fractions faster than the other pathway because safety is hardwired into us evolutionarily. 

Is it Dusty Bin?

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, bender said:

I know it's tempting fate but does anyone know what time the final kicks off at should we get there.  I know it's 26/5 but I cant find what time it is.  Still says TBA on https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13120822/efl-play-offs-fixtures-dates-and-schedule-for-championship-league-one-and-league-two

“Not yet confirmed”