An Outsider's View of Saints History

[kushiro]

This is my first post here. I usually write historical articles for Leicester City forums and I'm here, of course, in peace. 

First of all, apologies for the timing. I intended putting this up before Tuesday night's game as a kind of preview, but after registering to join this site, it took a couple of days for the application to be confirmed.

I write about football history generally, not just the foxes, and here I'd like to give an outsider's view on a few stand-out moments in Southampton history. You might think the choices a little bizarre, or too biased towards the dim and distant past, but please comment and tell me what you think. I'll present it as a Top Ten, in reverse order.

 

10) The First Time

After they joined the Football League in 1920, Southampton didn't have to wait long for their first experience of a promotion race. At Easter in that first season, this was the top of Division Three South:

Crystal Palace    49 points

Southampton      44 points

Only one team went up back then, and it looked pretty comfortable for Palace. But Saints had a game in hand, and the fixture list had thrown up a mouth-watering Easter double header. On Monday, the top two would meet at The Dell; the following day they'd meet at Palace's ground - The Nest. Southampton knew it was still in their hands. Just like now, everyone was doing the maths. Beat Palace twice and win the game in hand and Saints would be top.

Coming towards the final whistle in that first game, it was going to plan. Saints were 1-0 up, the goal coming from 'the man who never smiled' - James Moore. But then Palace got a late equaliser, and the excitement was so much that a surge on the terraces broke crush barriers, leaving several people injured. 

The game finished 1-1, as did the return. Palace could relax. They would finish champions. But Saints had got a taste for it, and the following season, an unbeaten run of 19 games put them top of the table at New Year (a record that stood for 102 years - until this season). The race went down to the wire, and if it hadn't been for Plymouth losing at QPR on the last day of the season, Saints would have finished second again. But Argyle's defeat allowed Saints to leapfrog them with a 5-0 win over Newport County at The Dell. In the run-in, three away wins in Wales - all 1-0 - had been crucial. At Aberdare Athletic, Newport (again) and Merthyr Town.

 

9) On February 6th 1980, Kevin Keegan of Hamburg, recently voted European Player of the Year, confirmed his world-class status by scoring both England goals in a 2-0 win over the Republic of Ireland at Wembley. There was a lot of talk in the press about where his future lay - and only two men in the stadium that night knew the answer. One of them was Mighty Mouse himself, the other was Saints boss Lawrie McMenemy, sitting in the stand. He had spoken secretly to Keegan the previous day and received an assurance that at the end of the season he’d be coming back to England – to play at The Dell. 

Fast forward two years to January 1982 and Saints had just got a crucial three points at Ayresome Park, taking them top of the First Division. On the coach home Keegan and other senior players told McMenemy that if they bought in one more top player they could take the title. Keegan had Peter Shilton in mind. But the club didn’t sign anyone and they faded badly, ending the season in 7^th. The low point was a 3-0 home defeat by Aston Villa at the end of March, after which McMenemy told the team that they had ‘cheated’ the club. Keegan was amazed by his choice of words. ‘Something inside me died that day’, he later said. He was soon on his way to Newcastle.

Shilton then did arrive at The Dell, and two years later, a late-season surge meant Southampton finished runners-up to Liverpool. McMenemy met Keegan shortly afterwards and told him ‘If you’d stayed, we’d have been champions'.

 

8   When Bill Shankly chose his Desert Island Discs for BBC Radio in 1965, one of his eight selections was Louis Armstrong singing ‘When The Saints Go Marching In’, which must have brought a smile to a few listeners in Hampshire.

Throughout his glorious 15 year reign at Anfield, there were very few teams that outclassed his Liverpool side. Johann Cruyff ‘s Ajax in the European Cup would be one. Southampton in 1960/61 were another. In three games between the sides that season, Shanks’ first full season at Anfield, the Saints beat the Reds three times – a League double, and victory at Anfield in the first season of the League Cup.

 It was the game at The Dell that really brought home to Shankly just how hard it was going to be to take his sleeping giant back to the top level. Liverpool were totally outplayed as the Saints ran out 4-1 winners. The Liverpool Echo reported that: Southampton gave a brilliant exhibition of accurate, fast and skillful football. They were better at every point and every position, with their outstanding men being their England Under-23 wingers Terry Paine and John Sydenham.

 It was just seven days later that Saints won the return game 1-0. In between those two, Portsmouth came to The Dell and were beaten 5-0. There can't have been many weeks in the club's history better than that one.

 The following season, Shanks added the crucial pieces to his jigsaw, and it was a 2-0 victory over Southampton in April that clinched promotion, while in a bizarre football-rock’n’roll overlap, in Germany that same night there was another clash between the two cities. A Southampton band called The Graduates played the Star Club in Hamburg, and then left the stage to the main act - The Beatles.

 

7)   On Leicester City forums recently, after the club had allowed a 14 point gap over the third placed team to be gradually eaten away, there was a lot of talk about whether any other club had ever collapsed so spectacularly. Quite a few examples were unearthed, and there may be a few Saints fans who can still recall what happened at the end of the 1948/49 season.

Southampton were cruising to the Division Two title. A 1-0 win at rivals Spurs on April 2nd  left the table like this (with only two points for a win back then):

 

 Southampton               35        51  

Fulham                          34        43  

West Brom                    33        43  

Tottenham                    35        41 

 

But top scorer Charlie Wayman was injured in that game at White Hart Lane and missed much of the run-in. Saints won just one of their last seven, and in the end it was Fulham and West Brom that went up.

 Ted Bates was in that team, and he never forgot how bad it felt. Seventeen years later and he was Saints boss as the club had the chance to reach the promised land at last. On May 9^th 1966, a Terry Paine header sealed a crucial point away at Leyton Orient, meaning that only a 6-0 defeat at Maine Road in the final game could deprive them of promotion to Division Onw. Many were celebrating, but not Ted Bates. The memory of 1949 was still too fresh, and he kept his game face on.

 That match at Man City finished 0-0, and Ted could finally relax. Saints had finally made it.

 

6)  One of the most persistent myths about English football is that, before the 1960s, there was never any singing or chanting on the terraces. As if tens of thousands of working class people could gather in one place, experience all the excitement of the beautiful game and somehow let out just a few 'oohs and 'aahs'.

Vocal backing has in fact been a constant feature, throughout the history of the game. In March 1897, Southampton St. Mary’s, as they were still called, traveled to rivals Millwall and came away with a 0-0 draw to preserve their unbeaten record that season in the Southern League. Saints fans celebrated in Central London, as this contemporary newspaper report tells us: 200 fans were at Nelson’s Column when someone called for the Southampton ‘whisper’, and from 200 throats went the stentorian ‘Hi! Hi! Hi!’, which almost toppled Nelson from his pedestal.

 What a shame there was no Tik Tok in the 19^th century. We’d have a record of just what that sounded like. As it is, we’ll just have to imagine.

 A few years later, Southampton docks were the scene of a similar performance. The first ever South African rugby tourists arrived in 1906, and 'As their feet touched English soil’, a report tells us, 'they performed a Zulu war cry'. It would be performed before all of their matches on that historic tour. 

 

5)  Leicester City and Southampton both had to wait a long, long time to lift the FA Cup. Saints had been in existence nearly 100 years; Leicester even longer. But those two long and winding roads followed very different routes. Leicester only made it to the semi-finals for the first time in 1934, fully forty years after they joined the Football League. Saints, meanwhile, had experienced numerous semi-final dramas before they even joined the League. Including replays, they played EIGHT FA Cup semi-finals before Leicester had played even one. And back then, of course, they were proper semi-finals - not the tedious business we have now with everything being staged at Wembley.  Those eight games were at Bramall Lane, Crystal Palace (twice), Elm Park, White Hart Lane and Stamford Bridge (three times). No doubt the war cry got a few outings on those occasions. 

 

4)  It used to be the 'BIg Four'. Then Man City made it five. And then Spurs joined so now we have the 'Big Six'.  

Such talk actually predates the Premier League by several decades. When the League Cup started in 1960, five top clubs considered the competition beneath them and decided not to enter The press called them the 'Big Five' - Arsenal, Tottenham, Sheffield Wednesday, Wolves and West Brom.  At that time, Southampton had just been promoted from Division Three (and were about to give Bill Shankly's Liverpool that hammering at The Dell).

Two decades later, and the Big Five started thinking seriously about breaking away. But then the grouping  was a little different - Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Tottenham and Man U. Their chairmen met secretly in the early months of the 1985/86 season, and then approached three other clubs to join them  - Manchester City, Newcastle - and Southampton. The phrase 'The Big Eight' never made it into the media, but there you are - Saints were once a member of the elite. 

 

 

3)  Southampton came pretty close to playing in the first FA Cup Final at Wembley. They made it to the quarter-finals in 1923 before losing to West Ham in a second replay at Villa Park. In the West Ham team was George Kay, who skippered them in the final six weeks later.

Kay was Saints boss in 1934, still wearing his runners-up medal from Wembley, when Pathe News visited The Dell to make this wonderful short film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZamLE065eWg

 

 

2)   Leicester fans got a bit of a shock in January 2020. Having won 9-0 at St. Mary’s just three months earlier, they might have expected another goal-fest in the return fixture. It didn’t happen of course. Saints won 2-1 at the King Power - and it’s amazing how often that kind of thing happens. Think of Liverpool 9 Crystal Palace 0 in 1989, followed by Palace's famous FA Cup semi-final win later that season.

The only time Leicester have bettered those nine goals in a League game came in 1928 when they beat Portsmouth 10-0 at Filbert Street. When Pompey went back to Leicester the following season there was an equally astonishing scoreline – Pompey won 5-0, with their goalkeeper Jock Gilfillan applauded off at the end by the home fans.

 Gilfillan’s grandson also became a footballer, five decades later. His name was Steve Mills, and he played for Southampton.  In 1975, he was involved in a horrific car crash which effectively finished his career at the tragically young age of 21.

 And this is a very roundabout way of introducing a Saints legend. Because to replace Mills at full back, Lawrie McMenemy signed an old Filbert Street hero, Peter Rodrigues. He had nearly scored for Leicester in the 1969 Cup Final against Manchester City, but before the 1976 Final, he was the only one of the 20 outfield players quoted at odds of 100-1 to score the first goal.  All the other players were 50-1 or shorter. And actually, Rodrigues nearly did score that day.

His main priority though was keeping United's young star Gordon Hill quiet - and this he did so successfully that Tommy Docherty took Hill off shortly after half time - about 45 minutes before Rodrigues climbed the 39 steps to lift the trophy.

 

1) Well I said these choices might be considered a little bizarre, and no doubt you're thinking 'What about this!' and 'What about that!'. But this is not intended as a definitive overview. It's just a personal selection.  However, the top choice could really only be one man.  And to introduce him, please allow me to indulge in a little personal reminiscence

In the 1994/95 season I’d fallen out of love with football. I was living in Blackburn, and even though Rovers were top of the Premier League, I couldn't be bothered to go and watch them. Even when they played Leicester.  

 Now, one Saturday afternoon in December, they had a home fixture against Southampton, and for some reason, at about 4 o’clock, I thought ‘I wonder if they still allow you in free for the last fifteen minutes, like in the old days?’

It was a freezing early winter afternoon, but I decided to take a stroll down to Ewood Park.

 At about 4.30, I got to the ground just as they were opening the exit gates for the early leavers and, what do you know, I just walked in. I quickly found an empty seat to the right of the goal at the Blackburn end, and I asked the score. 'We're 3-1 up', someone said. The next moment, Matt Le Tissier weaved a magic circle in the middle of the park, then let fly a gorgeous, looping 35 yarder - a shot I might have caught had its trajectory not been interrupted by the top corner of Tim Flowers’ net.

People talk about being struck by a metaphorical bolt of lightining. Well, this was like a message from the Footballing Gods (or should I say 'Le God'), shaking me up and asking 'Why on earth have you been ignoring the beautiful game?' Well, the passion was rekindled, to such an extent that I now find myself writing long historical features about clubs I don't even support.

You've all seen it a million times, and so have I. But it never loses its magic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cx59N1wHcs

Edited April 25 by kushiro

[Fan The Flames]

Nice writing mate, thanks.

[Badger]

Really good read to start the day this morning.

There has certainly been a fair amount of time in researching and preparing that. Thanks.

[malcolm waldron]

Appreciate you taking the effort to write this.

Good luck for the rest of the season (he says through gritted teeth foilowing Tuesday's game....)

[Stud mark of doom]

Absolutely brilliant stuff - probably the best ever post on this site by some margin. 
 

Having spent over 50 years following saints and read lots of books on our history, there are even a few new things in there for me. 
 

 

Edited April 25 by Stud mark of doom

[ErwinK1961]

In amongst a sea of turd on this forum, this is a fantastic read.

Thank you for taking the time to post that, Kushiro. Some really interesting nuggets.

[kushiro]

Thanks for all the positive comments.

I've been writing this kind of piece for a few of Leicester's opponents recently. Have a look if you're interested. 

 

https://wbaunofficial.org.uk/showthread.php?tid=33399

An Outsider's View of Argyle History | PASOTI

[david in sweden]

A very good read cushiro,  especially as an amateur Saints' historian for over six decades myself,  I noted that you had done a lot of homework.

A few other points that might add to this brief, yet comprehensive record of the two clubs.   

Peter Rodrigues wasn't the only former Leicester player to sign for Saints   and got his reward some years after being a Cup Final loser at Wembley,

when he captained Saints to a Cup Final victory over Man Utd in 1976.  The aforementioned Leicester lad, Peter Shilton came to Saints (via N. Forest)

to  Lawrie McMenemy's  great 1980's squads that could boast 5 players who had captained England at some time in a more glorious past. 

 

Back in 1961. Saints signed Leicester's Tony Knapp, a superb Centre Half who was part of England's 1960 World Cup squad and narrowly missed

being capped himself.  It took a club record fee to draw Knapp to the South Coast where he superbly captained the team that won promotion to

Division One in 1966,  and was a consummate professional for 6 years with Saints and rarely missed a game. 

One of the more humorous episodes between Leicester and Saints came back in the 1970's , when Saints travelled to Filbert Street after a day of

torrential rain and where both sides " literally walked on water" ...as they tried vainly to pass the ball that rarely went 6 feet from the kicker.

The referee gave the whole thing up as a bad job after 25 minutes and the match was abandoned. This hilarious sequence can be found on You Tube. 

 

Saints' experiences of heavy defeats v. Leicester goes back a long way.  In October 1967,  Leicester visited the old Dell ground on one of those wet,

blustery days that are not uncommon on the South Coast and beat Saints 5-1 ..(with an  89th minute goal coming from Peter Shilton) when his huge

kick-out was carried downfield by the high wind  and bounced over the Saints' keeper Campbell Forsyth who was off his line.

 

Our most memorable match (in weather conditions not dissimilar to the match mentioned above), is far more recent and one that Saints' fans prefer 

to try and forget.  In high winds and blinding  rain Saints' England international Ryan Bertrand was red-carded for a dubious foul that the referee had

ignored, but that an eagle-eyed VAR official had taken up .. and suddenly Saints were down to 10 men after just 15 minutes, and with the wind at

their backs,  Vardy and Co. took full advantage and finally ran our as 9-0 winners. (Ouch) !  

 

I often felt that Saints were a good match against Leicester - even if the scoreline didn't always reflect that, but on occasions (like last Tuesday).

there are times when they were clearly the better side.   Leicester fans can count themselves unfortunate that they never saw the best of

Bertrand and Vestergaard who were superb in Saints' defence in an earlier period. 

Saints fans, only hope that Jamie Vardy retires - before we get to play Leicester the next time, as his goal-scoring record against Saints is incredible.

 

 

Edited April 28 by david in sweden

[SaintsBarry74]

What a post. Thank you for this.

[kushiro]

Just bumping this for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

[John Boy Saint]

6 hours ago, kushiro said:

Just bumping this for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

Thanks @kushiro for bumping this - that was a most pleasant read.

The only thing that jumped out was the Hi!Hi! Hi! in 6 - I had read about this in one of the Hagiology books from a few years back, Saints had arrived home on the train to South Western House which was then the main Southampton station, from beating our then arch rivals Plymouth. It was somewhere around midnight and the local paper were amazed to see so many folk out to greet them at such an hour, and "they were greeted with the regular cheer of Yi!Yi!Yi!"

 Thats not picking holes more of an observation

Thanks again  

[Saint Fan CaM]

Really good read - thanks