Saints 4-2 Sunderland - Match Thread

[Cabrone]

Entertaining win in the end but we made hard work of it when we really should have been out of sight. When Sunderland finally sussed our defence and started pressing up the pitch the defence cracked and we conceded 2. Play the same kamikaze defence against the top 3 and they will really punish us.

[Harry_SFC]

9 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Not much thankfully.

Picks up the ball and starts charging to their goal rather than looking for ways to artfully work it back to Bazunu from the halfway line.

For a squad with "no end product" Rothwell seems to be our only player who has too much end product compared to the rest of his game.

Indeed. If you watch Rothwells highlights from when he was at Blackburn, you can see his strength is carrying the ball forwards. His game isn't suited to the tippy happy football as much. It's about being positive and creating opportunities.  

Edited March 10 by Harry_SFC

[CWD]

Just watching the highlights and you could argue VAR would have ruled out two of our goals - the penalty for the double kick and Adams is standing offside in front of the keeper for the third 😬

Happy with the win. When it went 2-2 I was unsurprised and pissed off, but still thought we'd go on and win, which kinda shows where I am with the team at the moment.

 

[Kenilworthy]

Where was the tribute to Chris Nicholl yesterday? I guess they had it planned for the Preston game. But to forget one of our longest serving managers and a great player is shocking.

[macca155]

20 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

How do you see the landscape next season if we don’t achieve promotion this season? Do you think we will retain our better players? What do you think the ambitious loan players will do, do you think they’ll want another season in the championship? 

Interesting topic, probably worthy of a separate thread.

Sure we'll lose at least Downes. THB, and KWP. but they'll be other loan players available. Saints remain a big fish in this pond.

We've also got a few out on loan, who may come back with tails between their legs. Whether we want them is debatable of course.

Also the likes of Meghoma, Dibling and SAA, must start to make an impact.

It will be tougher obviously, but if SR maintain financial stability. Saints should remain contenders.

For the moment Saints are still in the race, although I think the focus will be on the play offs. Autos feel like a big ask now.

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

5 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Indeed. If you watch Rothwells highlights from when he was at Blackburn, you can see his strength is carrying the ball forwards. His game isn't suited to the tippy happy football as much. It's about being positive and creating opportunities.  

And we need a Rothwell or an Alcaraz in the team because that positivity rubs off on others. What RM then needs to do is accept there will be gaps in midfield so who covers for these players when the inevitably will lose the ball occasionally

[miserableoldgit]

13 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

And Brooks.

If ever a side didn’t need changing it was the one that played the first 55 minutes today. Martin thinks he’s a lot cleverer than he is.

And yet his other substitutions won the fame....

[eurosaint]

6 minutes ago, CWD said:

Just watching the highlights and you could argue VAR would have ruled out two of our goals - the penalty for the double kick and Adams is standing offside in front of the keeper for the third 😬

Happy with the win. When it went 2-2 I was unsurprised and pissed off, but still thought we'd go on and win, which kinda shows where I am with the team at the moment.

 

Just watched the penalty again on YouTube and there’s no way he could get that power into the shot if he scuffed it off two feet at the same time ! There was nothing wrong with it ✔️

[miserableoldgit]

14 hours ago, saintant said:

It's odd that RM decides to take off a player having a very good game especially with an international break coming up. Maybe Smallbone picked up a knock.

...and yet most of the football "brains" on here think that WS is a waste of space....

[Toussaint]

1 minute ago, miserableoldgit said:

...and yet most of the football "brains" on here think that WS is a waste of space....

That’s a sweeping generalisation if ever there was one.

[Wade Garrett]

Just seen Sunderland’s goals.  Stephens was extremely brave for their first, turning his back on the shot that deflected off his outstretched leg.

[Harry_SFC]

33 minutes ago, CWD said:

Just watching the highlights and you could argue VAR would have ruled out two of our goals - the penalty for the double kick and Adams is standing offside in front of the keeper for the third 😬

Happy with the win. When it went 2-2 I was unsurprised and pissed off, but still thought we'd go on and win, which kinda shows where I am with the team at the moment.

 

Adams was in an offside position but no way is the keeper getting near that finish from Rothwell. 

[Sheaf Saint]

45 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Just seen Sunderland’s goals.  Stephens was extremely brave for their first, turning his back on the shot that deflected off his outstretched leg.

Yeah it was a pathetic attempt at a block. He needed to take a step forward to stop it completely, but it was just a half-arsed effort in the end.

[StrangelyBrown]

47 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Just seen Sunderland’s goals.  Stephens was extremely brave for their first, turning his back on the shot that deflected off his outstretched leg.

The first was a beautiful combination of manning falling on his arse and failing to get up with any urgency and Stephens doing as you say one of his classic half arsed blocks. A summary of everything that is wrong with our defence at the moment in one move.

[saintant]

1 hour ago, miserableoldgit said:

...and yet most of the football "brains" on here think that WS is a waste of space....

Not me.

[captainchris]

Two things which are costing us goals and the manager should sort out.

Goals conceded: No player should be turning his back on incoming shots which has cost us two deflected goals in last two matches. This is what 8 year olds do, not grown men!

Second, scoring goals: To be considered every player should be able to confidently kick with both feet. 
 

Management can and should fix both of these, they are both issues in our team.

Edited March 10 by captainchris

[saintant]

8 minutes ago, captainchris said:

Two things which are costing us goals and the manager should sort out.

Goals conceded: No player should be turning his back on incoming shots which has cost us two deflected goals in last two matches. This is what 8 year olds do, not grown men!

Second, scoring goals: To be considered every player should be able to confidently kick with both feet. 
 

Management can and should fix both of these, they are both issues in our team.

I agree on scuffed shots and poor finishing in general. We create lots of chances but only Fraser and Rothwell seem to genuinely know how to strike a ball properly. All players should be spending hours on the training ground until they improve. Nobody expects them to turn into Harry Kane but there are many who need to learn the basics of striking the ball cleanly and accurately. 

Edited March 10 by saintant

[trousers]

9 minutes ago, captainchris said:

every player should be able to confidently kick with both feet

Having only been to a handful of games the last couple of seasons I hadn't realised until yesterday how one footed Bazunu is. There were some very awkward clearances using his right foot on the left side of the penalty area. 

[S-Clarke]

This thread is polluted with more nonsense than usual, and that takes some doing.

Anyway, weird game - it felt like we never really came out of our shells, went 2-0 up (Deserved) but we were never battering them or creating stacks of opportunities, it felt quite muted and 'easy' - and I think the easy element of it rolled over to the players in the second half, conceding those two goals was out of sheer complacency as we'd dawdled our way into that second half.

As soon as we needed to show urgency again, we overpowered them and got two more goals. So we were clearly too good for them, but just a frustrating bit of complacency in the middle part of that game which made it tighter than it should have ever been.

We're scoring stacks of goals, so that's a positive - I don't think we're giving up stacks of chances either, they're 'moments' and the teams are punishing them all at the moment (the second goal was a great hit tbf)

Good to go into this crazy 3 week break with 6 out of 6, it's frustrating having teams playing again before us (so the table will look odd again for Boro at home) but all we can do is keep plugging away.

[Appy]

Shout out to the woman a couple of rows in front of me shouting “you don’t know what you’re doing” at Martin when he brought on Rothwell. 

[trousers]

9 minutes ago, Appy said:

Shout out to the woman a couple of rows in front of me shouting “you don’t know what you’re doing” at Martin when he brought on Rothwell. 

To be fair (briefly), Russ's subs up to that point had made us worse rather than better, so, without the benefit of hindsight, you can probably understand people's frustration at that moment in the game.

Edited March 10 by trousers

[Appy]

15 minutes ago, trousers said:

To be fair (briefly), Russ's subs up to that point had made us worse rather than better, so, without the benefit of hindsight, you can probably understand people's frustration at that moment in the game.

There’s no to be fair about it, regardless of the earlier subs, he’s not warranted having that chanted by anyone. 

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, Appy said:

There’s no to be fair about it, regardless of the earlier subs, he’s not warranted having that chanted by anyone. 

Yeah, they probably could have conveyed their legitimate frustration in a more constructive manner, but this is football fans that we're talking about here and there's not much overlap with 'Mensa membership' and 'football fans'  in that particular Venn diagram...

[Dusic]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

Yeah, they probably could have conveyed their legitimate frustration in a more constructive manner, but this is football fans that we're talking about here and there's not much overlap with 'Mensa membership' and 'football fans'  in that particular Venn diagram...

Anyone with two brain cells can see his use of subs (and their impact) has been largely excellent this season.

Good in game management and his overall management of the squad, keeping everyone motivated and involved has been a huge plus.

[Tamesaint]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Any danger of answering the question?

I think that he did. Perfectly. 

[trousers]

8 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Anyone with two brain cells can see his use of subs (and their impact) has been largely excellent this season.

Good in game management and his overall management of the squad, keeping everyone motivated and involved has been a huge plus.

Yep, totally agree with that. Yesterday was a relatively rare occasion where his initial subs were premature and didn't improve us, quite the opposite (IMO of course). 

[Chez]

2 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

Just seen Sunderland’s goals.  Stephens was extremely brave for their first, turning his back on the shot that deflected off his outstretched leg.

Seeing as you watched it again, I'm surprised you didn't notice and subsequently mentioned Bednarek's woeful clearance-come-pass that was the first error that led to the first goal.  His hesitation to close down for the second, though understandable, was also a factor in that goal too. 

[VectisSaint]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Yeah it was a pathetic attempt at a block. He needed to take a step forward to stop it completely, but it was just a half-arsed effort in the end.

It wasn't, he was clearly trying to get out of the way of the shot and didn't turn his back, he was side on, not trying to block it at all. Gav probably had it covered, unfortunately the slight nick off Stephens deflected it in. The goal was primarily the fault of Manning initially, losing the ball and Sulemana running back toward goal and then giving it away. The finish from the Sunderland player was actually a decent strike. Manning was crap again yesterday, not just for their first goal, but also for the earlier chance where he set up Ba, who fluffed his lines. Still he did win the penalty so something good came from him being on the pitch (but nothing defensively).    

[rallyboy]

Despite it being frightening to watch, we rarely concede a goal directly from playing it out of our own six-yard box, most mistakes are made further out with sloppy control, as happened yesterday.

We are also scoring goals with moves that start from Bazunu playing short passes and those scary-looking triangles.

What doesn't help when the players are moving it around in tight spaces and drawing in the opposition, is a section of the crowd wetting themselves and shrieking like toddlers because they just want the ball hoofed to the opposition keeper.

If you are one of those nervous sorts from the 80s who like to go long to a big man, get it in the mixer, feed off knockdowns etc, just hold your nerve, calm down, there will be moments, but we can outscore teams by playing this way.

[VectisSaint]

1 hour ago, StrangelyBrown said:

The first was a beautiful combination of manning falling on his arse and failing to get up with any urgency and Stephens doing as you say one of his classic half arsed blocks. A summary of everything that is wrong with our defence at the moment in one move.

You missed Sulemana running back to his own goal having picked it up from Manning's give away and then giving it away to the scorer, that was actually the costliest error in a catalogue of errors, Bednarek's initial clearance also pathetic (doesn't show up on the highlights). 

Big problem was though not the particular errors that ended up with the 1st goal, but that the whole back 5 went into panic mode and continued for about 10 minutes, they all lost their head, THB in particular went from his usual super cool, calm and efficient to headless chicken, I don't really know why they do this. 

[Miltonaggro]

A couple of further observations from yesterday agreeing with some of the foregoing posts. Taking Brooks off clearly unbalanced our midfield, with the defence already looking a tad unbalanced due to the shoehorning of stephens and playing our best centre back as a full back. Those Sunderland goals looked great in the ground but remarkable having seen them back - terrific and Bazunu had no chance. Thought Armstrong the Geordie was mom and clearly wanted to rattle the away fans, which was nice to see.  Other than the two missiles, Sunderland didn’t really have a structured goal threat and if we could finish would have reversed that 5-0 early second half.  After half time Sunderland were swinging long cross balls in towards manning who once again was seen as the weak link by our opposition. Good to see Bree on, and he’s a steady Eddie, a solid defender, which is quite handy to have at full back. Mara is frustrating but has a touch of the louche Gabbadiani class about him, looks like he has everything you need in a centre forward but is either naive or still learning, like to think the latter as a youngster. More worried about Sulemana who has some remarkable skill but seems incapable of passing or shooting on target, very quick running up his own arse. Lethal player potentially but it’s like having the scarecrow from the wizard of Oz on speed as your impact sub currently. 

Edited March 10 by Miltonaggro

[davefizzy14]

That was another thrilling home match 🙂 we needed that win ahead of this three week break to close the gap at the top. Rothwell is so clinical in those situations, the first in particular was sweetly struck 🙂 pleased for both Stuart Armstrong and Adam Armstrong too 🙂 Stuart's being a poachers finish and Adam's a cooly despatched penalty 🙂 obviously frustrating that the two goals we conceded were definitely preventable but with this upcoming break and getting some extra work done on the training ground, I'm pretty certain we can become more solid. COYR 🙂

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Yep, totally agree with that. Yesterday was a relatively rare occasion where his initial subs were premature and didn't improve us, quite the opposite (IMO of course). 

In his head, Martin is probably thinking that 1) he's not far off having to bring on some extra energy so 2) Anticipate that Sunderland are going to have to push up to get back into it, so having our fastest player to get behind them, and worry them when they get forward is a plus as 3) After 55, Sunderland were pressing us back centrally, and our clearances were getting a bit rushed, making 4) Aribo coming on to win and hold the ball and be a target for Baz would be a plus.

Didn't quite work like that, but self inflicted, against some of the composed passing we've seen earlier in the season. I can see why he made the changes. Don't know if the shift in defence yesterday added to those issues.

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Having only been to a handful of games the last couple of seasons I hadn't realised until yesterday how one footed Bazunu is. There were some very awkward clearances using his right foot on the left side of the penalty area. 

When our passing out breaks down, and Has only has a second to act on his "wrong side" is when you have moments of worry. He's had to do it so often, and I imagine opponents know and try to force it onto that side, that I expect him to deal with them. The others weren't as sharp picking up passing angles I thought yesterday. That one I do think had to do with the shuffle.

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, VectisSaint said:

It wasn't, he was clearly trying to get out of the way of the shot and didn't turn his back, he was side on, not trying to block it at all. Gav probably had it covered, unfortunately the slight nick off Stephens deflected it in. The goal was primarily the fault of Manning initially, losing the ball and Sulemana running back toward goal and then giving it away. The finish from the Sunderland player was actually a decent strike. Manning was crap again yesterday, not just for their first goal, but also for the earlier chance where he set up Ba, who fluffed his lines. Still he did win the penalty so something good came from him being on the pitch (but nothing defensively).    

He was trying to block it.  It was an abysmal effort.  

[Charlie Wayman]

It is good that Russ and his team have addressed the issue of sloppy defensive errors leading to soft goals. What a relief that is.

[Farmer Saint]

2 hours ago, Appy said:

Shout out to the woman a couple of rows in front of me shouting “you don’t know what you’re doing” at Martin when he brought on Rothwell. 

@AlexLaw76 Think you've been spotted! 

[Fan The Flames]

55 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

He was trying to block it.  It was an abysmal effort.  

I don't know, there's a modern school of thought, to not fully block a shot that far out, because a deflection can be devastating. You half block to provide some defence and to give the GK a good clean sight of the ball. Maybe that's what he is asked to do.

[Dark Munster]

8 hours ago, Dusic said:

We are behind two teams who were already proven better than us and one that is having a freak season

Our squad is as good as Leicester’s and Leeds’, and way above Ipswich’s. And yet we’re fourth in a three horse race.

Many times RM is not getting the best out of the squad due to insane line ups and shoe horning in his favourites. Not to mention thinking he’s a genius by stubbornly over doing the tippy tapping at the back.

Some of the football has been very good, due to the superior players compared to most of the dross in the division. But too many points have been dropped unnecessarily due to what I wrote above. 

[eurosaint]

1 hour ago, Dark Munster said:

Our squad is as good as Leicester’s and Leeds’, and way above Ipswich’s. And yet we’re fourth in a three horse race.

Many times RM is not getting the best out of the squad due to insane line ups and shoe horning in his favourites. Not to mention thinking he’s a genius by stubbornly over doing the tippy tapping at the back.

Some of the football has been very good, due to the superior players compared to most of the dross in the division. But too many points have been dropped unnecessarily due to what I wrote above. 

Take away the month of August which threw up so many uncertainties due to transfer speculation etc.. and we would be up there with the other two !

It’s difficult to attribute those games directly to Martin as he was taking stock of the situation much of which was out of his hands..

The 24 game undefeated run was pretty impressive and he deserves credit for that !

I agree that we’ve had some very entertaining matches and it’s been a pleasure to go to St Mary’s this season 👊

[The Kraken]

52 minutes ago, eurosaint said:

Take away the month of August which threw up so many uncertainties due to transfer speculation etc.. and we would be up there with the other two !

It’s difficult to attribute those games directly to Martin as he was taking stock of the situation much of which was out of his hands..

The 24 game undefeated run was pretty impressive and he deserves credit for that !

I agree that we’ve had some very entertaining matches and it’s been a pleasure to go to St Mary’s this season 👊

Our points gained in August was excellent, three wins and a draw from 4 games. The performances were a bit iffy but the results were very good. September was the problem, 4 defeats in a row and shipped 12 goals. February was also a wobble, 3 defeats in 4. Unfortunately this season it’s just stacked at the top of the table and runs like that leave you playing catch up. Theres still every chance that the top two or even three could get 100+ points for the season which would be utterly ridiculous.

[Dark Munster]

55 minutes ago, eurosaint said:

Take away the month of August which threw up so many uncertainties due to transfer speculation etc.. and we would be up there with the other two !

It’s difficult to attribute those games directly to Martin as he was taking stock of the situation much of which was out of his hands..

The 24 game undefeated run was pretty impressive and he deserves credit for that !

I agree that we’ve had some very entertaining matches and it’s been a pleasure to go to St Mary’s this season 👊

The suicidal line ups occurred in September during that horrible 4 match losing run. We also dropped points unnecessarily during the unbeaten run. That's 100% on RM.

And if you take out our bad runs you then have to take out Leicester and Leeds bad runs as well.

[ErwinK1961]

11 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

The suicidal line ups occurred in September during that horrible 4 match losing run. We also dropped points unnecessarily during the unbeaten run. That's 100% on RM.

And if you take out our bad runs you then have to take out Leicester and Leeds bad runs as well.

So playing poorly and dropping points is 100% on the manager, but when we play well that’s nothing to do with him and all because of our “superior players”? Gotcha.

[Whitey Grandad]

10 hours ago, miserableoldgit said:

And yet his other substitutions won the fame....

They did, but they shouldn’t have been necessary and they might not have worked.

The game was comfortably won and in our pockets and there it should have stayed.

[Dark Munster]

6 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

So playing poorly and dropping points is 100% on the manager, but when we play well that’s nothing to do with him and all because of our “superior players”? Gotcha.

Nice straw man argument there. I didn't say that. I've given him plenty of credit when he plays the right line up, and we've put in great performances. But we've dropped too many points unnecessarily in other matches due to what I wrote above.

Edited March 10 by Dark Munster

[Whitey Grandad]

10 hours ago, miserableoldgit said:

...and yet most of the football "brains" on here think that WS is a waste of space....

It all depends on where he plays and who he has around him.

He had a good game yesterday.

[Whitey Grandad]

8 hours ago, Appy said:

There’s no to be fair about it, regardless of the earlier subs, he’s not warranted having that chanted by anyone. 

But how can they be disregarded?

[Whitey Grandad]

7 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Despite it being frightening to watch, we rarely concede a goal directly from playing it out of our own six-yard box, most mistakes are made further out with sloppy control, as happened yesterday.

We are also scoring goals with moves that start from Bazunu playing short passes and those scary-looking triangles.

What doesn't help when the players are moving it around in tight spaces and drawing in the opposition, is a section of the crowd wetting themselves and shrieking like toddlers because they just want the ball hoofed to the opposition keeper.

If you are one of those nervous sorts from the 80s who like to go long to a big man, get it in the mixer, feed off knockdowns etc, just hold your nerve, calm down, there will be moments, but we can outscore teams by playing this way.

Are you sure about that?

[S-Clarke]

23 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

So playing poorly and dropping points is 100% on the manager, but when we play well that’s nothing to do with him and all because of our “superior players”? Gotcha.

It feels as if there is a collection of supporters (not just on here), who tied their extreme opinion to the mast back in September and even though the run since September has proven them totally and incredibly wrong, they are still desperately trying to play the 'I told you so card' - hence why our little wobble in Feb has brought some mentalists back out. Some people seem to really struggle adapting opinions, and are too quick to judge on either extreme.

Season wise we are doing exactly what we should be doing. There was always a possibility that we could bomb, such as the likes of Stoke and Norwich did when they came down (with very good players too) - but we didn't, we've maintained a pretty stable 2pts per game average and in every season since time began that's auto promotion. We have a better points tally at this stage than we did when we got promoted under Adkins.

The run in September is being brought up because that's the only real bad spell these supports can zoom in on to justify their rubbish, most of what happened during September is now absolutely irrelevant and things have evolved since then - so it really shouldn't keep being referenced as this isn't the same team.

[Osvaldorama]

22 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

It feels as if there is a collection of supporters (not just on here), who tied their extreme opinion to the mast back in September and even though the run since September has proven them totally and incredibly wrong, they are still desperately trying to play the 'I told you so card' - hence why our little wobble in Feb has brought some mentalists back out. Some people seem to really struggle adapting opinions, and are too quick to judge on either extreme.

Season wise we are doing exactly what we should be doing. There was always a possibility that we could bomb, such as the likes of Stoke and Norwich did when they came down (with very good players too) - but we didn't, we've maintained a pretty stable 2pts per game average and in every season since time began that's auto promotion. We have a better points tally at this stage than we did when we got promoted under Adkins.

The run in September is being brought up because that's the only real bad spell these supports can zoom in on to justify their rubbish, most of what happened during September is now absolutely irrelevant and things have evolved since then - so it really shouldn't keep being referenced as this isn't the same team.

Think you are gaslighting tbh. 
 

There are valid talking points:
- THB at RB

- Shoehorning Stephens in, upsetting the balance of the defence 

- Playing unbalanced midfields with no DMs

- Suicidal passing at all costs philosophy 

Of course; there are loads of positives as well. But to pretend the above aren’t concerning just because you like Martin is just as an extreme opinion to the one you’re accusing others of. 

The reality is, he’s doing well. The question is; could we be doing better?

Personally he has won me around and I really like him. I would back him for another season even if we don’t go up. 

[eurosaint]

2 hours ago, eurosaint said:

Take away the month of August which threw up so many uncertainties due to transfer speculation etc.. and we would be up there with the other two !

It’s difficult to attribute those games directly to Martin as he was taking stock of the situation much of which was out of his hands..

The 24 game undefeated run was pretty impressive and he deserves credit for that !

I agree that we’ve had some very entertaining matches and it’s been a pleasure to go to St Mary’s this season 👊

Sorry, I meant results in September not August….

😼