Financial Results 22/23

[Farmer Saint]

7 minutes ago, ally_uk said:

What I don't understand is the likes of Everton have been deducted points... 

Surely City and the likes or Chelsea should be relegated? How do they continue to get away with it? 

That's why I couldn't give a damm if we go into the Premier league it's corrupt to the core. 

 

 

Because they're disguising their losses through commercial earnings or share increases, and amortising transfer fees over very long contracts (in Chelsea's case). 

[Chez]

3 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

So is this about right? 84m lost but took in 111m  net not included on balance sheet this time?

It was an £87m operating loss before tax, £93.5m after tax.

Critically the owner pumped in £85m of cash, which provided the money to buy players last January etc.

Not sure where you have got the £111m net figure (I assume you mean net income from player sales) - but more than happy to assume that's an accurate number - but that income is very much needed, because £93.8m is owed (£52.3m player acquisitions and £41.5m loans) over the next 12 months (by end of June 2024).

A further £40.5m is owed for player acquisitions plus another £52m of bank loans, both payable beyond 12 months/June 2024.

Then there is a variable amount of £62m potentially owed for players - the figure "depends on appearances". This is a huge number and who it relates to is anyone's guess - but I don't believe this relates to THB and other loans we currently have as they would all be in the 2023/24 accounts.

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

5 hours ago, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

This thread was concerning enough without seeing these two wedges. Looks like they're sitting in the special seats!

[Weston Super Saint]

4 hours ago, Chez said:

It was an £87m operating loss before tax, £93.5m after tax.

Critically the owner pumped in £85m of cash, which provided the money to buy players last January etc.

Not sure where you have got the £111m net figure (I assume you mean net income from player sales) - but more than happy to assume that's an accurate number - but that income is very much needed, because £93.8m is owed (£52.3m player acquisitions and £41.5m loans) over the next 12 months (by end of June 2024).

A further £40.5m is owed for player acquisitions plus another £52m of bank loans, both payable beyond 12 months/June 2024.

Then there is a variable amount of £62m potentially owed for players - the figure "depends on appearances". This is a huge number and who it relates to is anyone's guess - but I don't believe this relates to THB and other loans we currently have as they would all be in the 2023/24 accounts.

I think the figure is closer to £160m for player sales.

Then there's the £100m parachute payments which I don't think are included.

[benali-shorts]

6 hours ago, Gingeletiss said:

You sort of can, if FIFA had any balls, if they made that the rule, then all those under their umbrella would have to abide by it.

But then a more player-centric Association, without player caps, would be created, and all the top players would join their associated leagues.
Players are mercenaries, hence why so many are playing in England for top salaries. You can’t realistically limit their earnings. 

[Gingeletiss]

Just now, benali-shorts said:

But then a more player-centric Association, without player caps, would be created, and all the top players would join their associated leagues.
Players are mercenaries, hence why so many are playing in England for top salaries. You can’t realistically limit their earnings. 

Ummm, yes you can. They just agree to implement a system in say, six years time. It will give all clubs world wide to get their heads around it. Most employers decide how much they pay their employees. If they want to pay their top end players, top wages, then they will have to have some low wage players in there as well.

[VectisSaint]

There's an article today (in the Sun) speculating that Leicester might face penalties next year if they get promoted, because their losses are expected to be more than £105m over the last 2 seasons. So question is, won't that apply to us as well? From what I can see our losses.over 3 seasons are £108m. Am I missing something?

[Farmer Saint]

5 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

There's an article today (in the Sun) speculating that Leicester might face penalties next year if they get promoted, because their losses are expected to be more than £105m over the last 2 seasons. So question is, won't that apply to us as well? From what I can see our losses.over 3 seasons are £108m. Am I missing something?

It depends what the losses are (they need to be football related). Share increases are also not taken into account, and I think Covid losses can be written off as well. I think we'll be OK but only because of the sales made last year (which is what I was telling everyone when fans were losing their minds over how many players we were selling - we had to due to FFP). 

[benali-shorts]

1 hour ago, Gingeletiss said:

Ummm, yes you can. They just agree to implement a system in say, six years time. It will give all clubs world wide to get their heads around it. Most employers decide how much they pay their employees. If they want to pay their top end players, top wages, then they will have to have some low wage players in there as well.

I think you underestimate player/agent power, and overestimate the power (and competence) of the governing bodies if you think that will ever happen.

[Chez]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I think the figure is closer to £160m for player sales.

Then there's the £100m parachute payments which I don't think are included.

He said £111m net.  Not sure how that figure was calculated, but I didn't think we spent £49m, so perhaps net was a bit higher. Good news.

The parachute payment is about £45m for the first year, but that's a massive drop from the £105m earned from TV in the Prem. Wage bill was about £120m, but you'd hope that has reduced a fair bit, otherwise that £45m wont go far!

 

[Chez]

52 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

There's an article today (in the Sun) speculating that Leicester might face penalties next year if they get promoted, because their losses are expected to be more than £105m over the last 2 seasons. So question is, won't that apply to us as well? From what I can see our losses.over 3 seasons are £108m. Am I missing something?

Not sure, but our losses over the last three years are £116.1m from what I can see. I guess 2021 was covid affected, so there will be leeway there. I wonder if interest on the loan taken out to cover covid losses would not be counted too? That is £10m on 2023 accounts for example. Makes a big difference.

2020 £73.3m loss before tax

2021 £13.7m loss before tax

2022 £15.4m loss before tax

2023 £87m loss before tax

 

[AlexLaw76]

5 minutes ago, Chez said:

Not sure, but our losses over the last three years are £116.1m from what I can see. I guess 2021 was covid affected, so there will be leeway there. I wonder if interest on the loan taken out to cover covid losses would not be counted too? That is £10m on 2023 accounts for example. Makes a big difference.

2020 £73.3m loss before tax

2021 £13.7m loss before tax

2022 £15.4m loss before tax

2023 £87m loss before tax

 

Also, the level of losses (£105m) require 3 years in the premier league.

[Chez]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Also, the level of losses (£105m) require 3 years in the premier league.

those four years of accounts are all for the Premier league.

 

[AlexLaw76]

4 minutes ago, Chez said:

those four years of accounts are all for the Premier league.

 

ah right...so the threshold changes for this year, even if we go back up...I am sure that is why Forest are now in the shite, as they were in the championship a few years ago, but bought everyone and anyone they could

[Chez]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

ah right...so the threshold changes for this year, even if we go back up...I am sure that is why Forest are now in the shite, as they were in the championship a few years ago, but bought everyone and anyone they could

the rules relating to ffp for a relegated side, such as us, is that we can make a maximum of £83m total losses for the three seasons (2 in the prem and 1 in the championship). That means, with losses of

2022 £15.4m loss before tax

2023 £87m loss before tax

we need to make a profit of about £19.4m in the 2024 accounts. Fuck knows how we can do that. I suspect there are lots of factors/clauses, like covid loan interest/payments etc that are exempt. 

[Give it to Ron]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

He said £111m net.  Not sure how that figure was calculated, but I didn't think we spent £49m, so perhaps net was a bit higher. Good news.

The parachute payment is about £45m for the first year, but that's a massive drop from the £105m earned from TV in the Prem. Wage bill was about £120m, but you'd hope that has reduced a fair bit, otherwise that £45m wont go far!

 

The 111m was from house on X from player sales I’m not sure if figure correct it’s what was posted by reliable source - 

The one insight into the post balance sheet activity (since June 2023) that the report discloses is as below:

“The group entered into sale and purchase agreements for players with net transactions amounting to £111m receivable.”

That’s vs £100.5m payable previously.

#SaintsFC

Edited 5 March, 2024 by Give it to Ron

[OldNick]

16 hours ago, Chez said:

Not sure, but our losses over the last three years are £116.1m from what I can see. I guess 2021 was covid affected, so there will be leeway there. I wonder if interest on the loan taken out to cover covid losses would not be counted too? That is £10m on 2023 accounts for example. Makes a big difference.

2020 £73.3m loss before tax

2021 £13.7m loss before tax

2022 £15.4m loss before tax

2023 £87m loss before tax

 

I thought they say that being in the PL it is a land of milk and honey, it is for players and agents it seems. Not sure the clubs do so well

Edited 6 March, 2024 by OldNick

[Holmes_and_Watson]

17 hours ago, Chez said:

the rules relating to ffp for a relegated side, such as us, is that we can make a maximum of £83m total losses for the three seasons (2 in the prem and 1 in the championship). That means, with losses of

2022 £15.4m loss before tax

2023 £87m loss before tax

we need to make a profit of about £19.4m in the 2024 accounts. Fuck knows how we can do that. I suspect there are lots of factors/clauses, like covid loan interest/payments etc that are exempt. 

Nothing will incentivise the team more to get promtion, than knowing the club will be selling their organs if we don't go up, to make up the shortfall. 🙂

[david in sweden]

Only Donald Trump's  accountants could make it look better than it is.

We were carrying a loss from the previous season ...then spent well over 100 million during the season we were relegated, yet still went down. 

Last summer we sold players for more than 180 million, and spent less than 30 mill. on new names in the summer window. 

 

Not all of these transactions would  have fallen into the same financial year......  BUT (not in the calendar year) 

As several have pointed out the parachute payments have not been included, so unless we spend another 100 million in the summer window...

we may show a good profit in next financial year. 

[trousers]

Maybe we should set fire to the stadium and put in a massive insurance claim...? Ah...

[Weston Super Saint]

38 minutes ago, trousers said:

Maybe we should set fire to the stadium and put in a massive insurance claim...? Ah...

I know a few members of a family in my parts who could (allegedly) help with that after their successes with the pier

[6ft8saint]

On 04/03/2024 at 14:18, bpsaint said:

So what you’re saying is if we don’t go up this year we’re pretty fucked.

No we have 100m + in summer sales from 23/24 due in 

[Doctoroncall]

On 05/03/2024 at 18:50, VectisSaint said:

There's an article today (in the Sun) speculating that Leicester might face penalties next year if they get promoted, because their losses are expected to be more than £105m over the last 2 seasons. So question is, won't that apply to us as well? From what I can see our losses.over 3 seasons are £108m. Am I missing something?

Guardian report. Leicester City are at serious risk of breaking the English Football League’s profit and sustainability regulations, raising concerns about the club’s financial picture and a possible points deduction.

The financial pressures are likely to result in the need to sell players this summer. If found in breach, it is unclear when any punishment would come into effect.

The EFL believes Leicester, who have a three-point lead at the top of the Championship, are on course to break financial rules relating to this season. The club had to submit its projected 2023-24 accounts by 1 March and the EFL believe those figures would equate to a breach, according to the league’s independent club financial reporting unit (CFRU).

The EFL determined that it was appropriate for Leicester to submit a business plan to demonstrate how it planned to comply with spending limits but the club said the relevant financial rules did not apply because they were in the Premier League last season.

In 2018, Leicester agreed to pay the EFL £3.1m to settle the league’s claim they breached financial rules in 2013-14.

[farawaysaint]

14 hours ago, Doctoroncall said:

Guardian report. Leicester City are at serious risk of breaking the English Football League’s profit and sustainability regulations, raising concerns about the club’s financial picture and a possible points deduction.

The financial pressures are likely to result in the need to sell players this summer. If found in breach, it is unclear when any punishment would come into effect.

The EFL believes Leicester, who have a three-point lead at the top of the Championship, are on course to break financial rules relating to this season. The club had to submit its projected 2023-24 accounts by 1 March and the EFL believe those figures would equate to a breach, according to the league’s independent club financial reporting unit (CFRU).

The EFL determined that it was appropriate for Leicester to submit a business plan to demonstrate how it planned to comply with spending limits but the club said the relevant financial rules did not apply because they were in the Premier League last season.

In 2018, Leicester agreed to pay the EFL £3.1m to settle the league’s claim they breached financial rules in 2013-14.

Ah yes, £3mi, a fair and just penalty for overspending to promotion. 

[Scottie]

On 06/03/2024 at 13:59, david in sweden said:

Only Donald Trump's  accountants could make it look better than it is.

We were carrying a loss from the previous season ...then spent well over 100 million during the season we were relegated, yet still went down. 

Last summer we sold players for more than 180 million, and spent less than 30 mill. on new names in the summer window. 

 

Not all of these transactions would  have fallen into the same financial year......  BUT (not in the calendar year) 

As several have pointed out the parachute payments have not been included, so unless we spend another 100 million in the summer window...

we may show a good profit in next financial year. 

It's more like £160m on sales. The £180m number includes add-ons which don't count in fair play rules until they happen.

You also need to subtract the sell on clauses for other clubs which was substantial for Livramento and Lavia, so take another £30m off gets you to more like £130m.

Then for fair play you have to net off their book value (i.e. make it profit not fee received). Luckily they were all cheap to buy so say £20m gets us to £110m.

Then take off your £30m spend on players and we are down to £80m ish profit from player trading.

 

Note last year we lost about £45m before player trading so assuming all other things equal we need to make up £65m to get to the numbers of profit Chaz mentioned above (need circa £20m for FPP). And of course our income dropped by about £60m. So we in total we need to make up £125m of which we already made up £80m from the trading per above. So another £45m to make up.

Of course our wage bill will have dropped a lot, there was some big payoffs on managers/staff last year (£15m?) and player amortisation will be down. Also not all costs are included in FPP.

To me it looks like someone is managing this quite well and we will probably make a small profit to about the amount we need in order to meet FPP.

 

 

 

[M271]

Some interesting Premier League club graphs on the bbc covering wages, sales, wage costs, debt Etc…….

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68713522

[Convict Colony]

53 minutes ago, M271 said:

Some interesting Premier League club graphs on the bbc covering wages, sales, wage costs, debt Etc…….

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68713522

My immediate take is