Saints 1-2 Hull - Match Thread

[Wade Garrett]

18 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Again, we have mostly players who are used to a PL schedule. The majority of these players are not. When we got promoted previously, they were, as they were mostly L1 and Championship players. 

Leeds and Leicester players seem ok.

[Whitey Grandad]

23 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Again, we have mostly players who are used to a PL schedule. The majority of these players are not. When we got promoted previously, they were, as they were mostly L1 and Championship players. 

Two games a week?

The only way to get match fit is to play games.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

22 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

You're talking as if these guys are pampered PL players and have never played at this level.

Armstrong, Adams, Downes, THB, Manning, Fraser, Brooks, Stephens, Smallbone, Rothwell have all played regular Championship football in their careers, some as recent as just last season. I don't buy that the players are only used to a PL schedule, that's nonsense.

Agreed. We are talking about professional football players here. Barring injuries or carrying knocks, they should be able to play two games a week. 

[Harry_SFC]

47 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Leeds and Leicester players seem ok.

Look at the Leeds line ups. They basically play the same team every game, whether that's Saturday-Tuesday or Saturday-Saturday. 

Farke knows his best line up. All this chopping and changing clearly isn't doing us any favours. 

Edited February 21 by Harry_SFC

[danjosaint]

RM is too stubborn and arrogant in his beliefs that it will cost us in the play offs, despite our really good run the season will be a failure and that's on RM as he's failed his remit, the club need to take blame as well, the lb situation is awful, the Ross signing was pretty inept and the arrival of Rothwell instead of a cdm again baffling, we've all been here before but after putting ourselves in a really good position we're going to end up kicking ourselves in the bollocks

[Badger]

17 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

Feel like I've fallen asleep and woken up back in September.

I had a feeling of this at West Brom on Friday on a few occasions. Despite the result and great win, there were moments I feared we were relapsing.

On several occasions it appeared KWP was involved too far up the pitch, and they broke down the left with a man over. 
 

Reminded me of Sunderland and Leicester games at times, just that WBA weren’t up to exploiting it. 
 

Edited February 21 by Badger

[Badger]

edited - double post 

Edited February 21 by Badger

[Block 5]

Does anyone know how the guy who fell at the foot of the block 5 stairs is doing? 

I stayed with him until the paramedics arrived. 

 

I think his name might have been Darryl? 

I just wanted to wish him a speedy recovery. 

[Chez]

7 hours ago, wild-saint said:

How about he is “Brave” and make the change after 20 minutes when it was clear his plan wasn’t going to work and we would have a chance to stay in the game. Adams and Aribo needed to come on then. It was so fucking obvious.

For all of Ralphs faults, the one thing he did do was react quickly when we were playing poorly from the start by changing shapes. It didn't always work, but at least he wasn't passive like RM was last night. A manager can only do so much to impact results - its often forgotten that in the end it's the players out on the pitch kickin the bloody ball - but what they can do is adjust formations, shapes and make subs. If you are not prepared to do that, you may as well be sat in the stand getting a better view of patterns of play than standing in the technical area `directing traffic'.   

[Chez]

4 hours ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

I know that 25 match unbeaten run was impressive but there were quite a few ordinary performances in there when we didn't really look that convincing. Some excellent 45 minutes followed by some dross as we sat back. In three of our last four matches we have been found out, starting horribly in all three. I think 4th is about right for us and I am resigned to a play off position. But a part of me dreads going up (if we are successful) as there will be helluva lot of rebuilding required (no shit sherlock), if we are not going to become canon fodder a la Burnley and Sheffield Utd.

prefer that we go up and have that problem than stay down and risk losing the genuine talent we have been making us look good.

[Chez]

2 hours ago, saintant said:

In the first half we clearly couldn't get to grips with their aggressive press. We continually tried to pass it around at the back - it was a case of ever decreasing circles and time after time a player had no options and had to pass back to Baz who then had no option other than a hopeful punt forward. We should not be painting ourselves into a corner like that. RM should have spotted this very early and made changes/adjustments - that is a big part of his remit as a coach and, if he is not capable of pro-action, he has a huge gap in his CV.

well put. We could not get out of our own half at times. It was painful to watch. Only when Hull sat back in the last ten or fifteen minutes did we look a decent side.

What I also found noticeable was the ease in which Hull could pass it out from the back. Our press (and this has been the case for a long time now) is not good at all. There were a couple of good presses early on - one where Rothwell should have scored as a result - but other than that Hull just waltzed through it with ease. Defensively, we are not great. We `get away with it' a lot IMO, relying on individuals and poor play by opponents. On another day it could easily have been 5, 6 or more last night.    

[Chez]

37 minutes ago, Badger said:

Reminded me of Sunderland and Leicester games at times, just that WBA weren’t up to exploiting it. 

We were obviously tonked by Leicester, largely because of ruthless finishing, but if other teams had the same firepower we may well have been tonked in many more games. We get cut to ribbons at times and there are so many break opportunities that teams don't take advantage of. Defensively, I don't think we are a well organised side at all. Keeping the ball all game has been a great way of hiding that.

[S-Clarke]

5 minutes ago, Chez said:

We were obviously tonked by Leicester, largely because of ruthless finishing, but if other teams had the same firepower we may well have been tonked in many more games. We get cut to ribbons at times and there are so many break opportunities that teams don't take advantage of. Defensively, I don't think we are a well organised side at all. Keeping the ball all game has been a great way of hiding that.

We aren't very organised I agree, the way individuals are exposed 1-1 is quite frightening. You get lucky against the lesser sides as they don't have the quality to really do anything, but against the better sides playing as high as we do without any real defensive structure is suicidal. You can't rely on just keeping the ball, there are times when teams break the lines and we cannot deal with that. It's not going to change though, this is how we play and we need to find a way to get the better of the good sides by playing that way.

The standard of this league is very high this year though, that has to be said. But I don't think we are anywhere near the level of Leeds or Leicester, they're much more complete teams. Leeds defensive stats show that.

Edited February 21 by S-Clarke

[Badger]

11 minutes ago, Chez said:

 Defensively, I don't think we are a well organised side at all. Keeping the ball all game has been a great way of hiding that.

Passing it around at the back drives me up the wall, even when in a more convincing and supposedly comfortable  lead.

We saw the inevitable consequences of this at home v Plymouth, and again last night. 
 

But it remains key in the RM mantra. 

[derry]

One of our big faults is mostly on Smallbone. Most of the time he just unloads the ball. Last night I lost count of the number of balls played out to him that he immediately passed back to the back four. A lot of the times he did that we were then pressed hard and struggling. We must have a real bunch pf passive players because I would have torn his head off figuratively speaking. Manoeuvering is one thing as there is a purpose. Smallbone is just unloading it. Together with the lightweight Rothwell we were overwhelmed. Smallbone is just acceptable with Downes or Charles but no way Rothwell.

[Harry_SFC]

16 minutes ago, derry said:

One of our big faults is mostly on Smallbone. Most of the time he just unloads the ball. Last night I lost count of the number of balls played out to him that he immediately passed back to the back four. A lot of the times he did that we were then pressed hard and struggling. We must have a real bunch pf passive players because I would have torn his head off figuratively speaking. Manoeuvering is one thing as there is a purpose. Smallbone is just unloading it. Together with the lightweight Rothwell we were overwhelmed. Smallbone is just acceptable with Downes or Charles but no way Rothwell.

Don't think I've ever seen Smallbone turn and play a forward pass tbh 

[Chez]

33 minutes ago, Badger said:

Passing it around at the back drives me up the wall, even when in a more convincing and supposedly comfortable  lead.

We saw the inevitable consequences of this at home v Plymouth, and again last night. 
 

But it remains key in the RM mantra. 

to be fair Hull play the same way (passing it short out from the six yard box) and our own press in the early part of the game exposed its frailties when Smallbone won the ball and Rothwell should have scored. Sadly we couldn't seem to maintain and organised press as the game developed.

One thing we didn't do last night, was switch to the thirty yard ball out to the wing from Baz to get us out of jail when they are pressing, but not be totally aimless. Maybe Hull had that ball covered too? 

We should be watching videos of that game all week to see where we went wrong and importantly how Hull did it far far better. We can learn a lot and if we did, it might make all the difference down the line.

 

[Chez]

17 minutes ago, derry said:

One of our big faults is mostly on Smallbone. Most of the time he just unloads the ball. Last night I lost count of the number of balls played out to him that he immediately passed back to the back four. A lot of the times he did that we were then pressed hard and struggling. We must have a real bunch pf passive players because I would have torn his head off figuratively speaking. Manoeuvering is one thing as there is a purpose. Smallbone is just unloading it. Together with the lightweight Rothwell we were overwhelmed. Smallbone is just acceptable with Downes or Charles but no way Rothwell.

got to have CMs that can take the ball with back to goal and keep it for more than one touch. Obviously you need to pick and choose when you do it as getting caught in possession there kills you, but I agree, the likes of Smallbone simply do not retain the ball to draw opposing players in or indeed play on the half turn enough. Charles not playing up to standard is the issue.

[pimpin4rizeal]

He’s done s cracking job with us but last night was on russ! In games we have started rothwell that’s now 8 conceded in 3 isn’t it ?  None of the trio of rothwell,smallbone and stuey offer much steel and to make it worse Stephens dropped for manning after a good clean sheet at West Brom 

hopefully it turns out a blessing as Martin should now be clear in never fielding such a weak midfield again . 

Edited February 21 by pimpin4rizeal

[Badger]

1 hour ago, derry said:

One of our big faults is mostly on Smallbone….

Smallbone is just acceptable with Downes or Charles but no way Rothwell.

Not sure I rate Charles any higher tbh. He may have more potential but that’s not what we need now. 

[Oldandtired]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

to be fair Hull play the same way (passing it short out from the six yard box) and our own press in the early part of the game exposed its frailties when Smallbone won the ball and Rothwell should have scored. Sadly we couldn't seem to maintain and organised press as the game developed.

One thing we didn't do last night, was switch to the thirty yard ball out to the wing from Baz to get us out of jail when they are pressing, but not be totally aimless. Maybe Hull had that ball covered too? 

We should be watching videos of that game all week to see where we went wrong and importantly how Hull did it far far better. We can learn a lot and if we did, it might make all the difference down the line.

 

I felt last night that part of the difference was that when Hull were passing their way out of trouble they were going forward, ie their players were able to run on to the ball which made their transition a fast one. I felt that too many times our players seemed to receive the ball facing their own goal thus having to turn away from markers etc. slowing the whole thing down.

[Alanh]

2 hours ago, derry said:

One of our big faults is mostly on Smallbone. Most of the time he just unloads the ball. Last night I lost count of the number of balls played out to him that he immediately passed back to the back four. A lot of the times he did that we were then pressed hard and struggling. We must have a real bunch pf passive players because I would have torn his head off figuratively speaking. Manoeuvering is one thing as there is a purpose. Smallbone is just unloading it. Together with the lightweight Rothwell we were overwhelmed. Smallbone is just acceptable with Downes or Charles but no way Rothwell.

He looks good when we are on the front foot and retaining possession as he makes late runs into the box and regularly provides an option in the final third.  When he is marked tightly, like he was for an hour last night, he hasn't got the close control or confidence to play much more than a wall pass back to the defence.  Last night we needed someone like Lavia who can play on the half turn and face up the opposition.  Easier said than done though when their man to man marking was so tight and disciplined.

[Harry_SFC]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

Not sure I rate Charles any higher tbh. He may have more potential but that’s not what we need now. 

Charles passing is very iffy but his positioning is a lot better than Smallbone.

Charles actually looked better at right back against Watford in the cup. 

[6ft8saint]

19 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

There was a funny shout around me in the first half - ''Just hit it long!!!'', so they did what he asked and hit it long on a few occasions. The response to one of them?  ''Absolute shit, why are we hoofing it aimlessly?'' - it was the same person, honestly. 

There were a few ''get it in the mixer' shouts as well, not sure what that would have given us seeing that we only had Edozie and Mara in the 'mixer' at that point.

I think like that fan we want to see some element of mixing it up a bit and not being predictable. 85% of the plays we attempts were woeful passes to smallbone who then panic'd and passed it back. In the Rotherham game the commentator was predicting the ball going to bednarak before the pass happened every time. The boys aren't robots but sometimes don't play with the fluidity and freedom we'd all like to see. 

[Jonnyboy]

9 hours ago, Badger said:

I had a feeling of this at West Brom on Friday on a few occasions. Despite the result and great win, there were moments I feared we were relapsing.

On several occasions it appeared KWP was involved too far up the pitch, and they broke down the left with a man over. 
 

Reminded me of Sunderland and Leicester games at times, just that WBA weren’t up to exploiting it. 
 

I think we were also helped by quite a generous ref against WBA too. 

[Galway saint]

listened to this on radio humberside last night and they were loving it of course 

just seen the goals - the second one is a horror show and Bazanu should have done better with the parry for the first.

listened to martin with blackmore after the game. accepted the first half was down to him but far too much talk of bravery and courage on the ball. it’s not WWII and this sort of talk just distracts.

pick your best team and stick with that - has to be fraser every time over edozie and aribo to give us some presence in the middle of the park with downes when fit. adams has to come back in. id go with stephens at LB until Bree is back  playing

[Saint Fan CaM]

I’m surprised at the lack of imagination and flex in RM’s team selection. He has 3 CB’s at his disposal to compensate for a weakened defensive midfield, so why not get Stephens into a back three or play him between the CB’s and CDM’s? I’m not a huge JS fan, but he can pass reasonably accurately and has confidence to turn with the ball. The best RM seems able to muster is consistently selecting his mate Manning with typically terrible consequences.

[6ft8saint]

18 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

Don't think I've ever seen Smallbone turn and play a forward pass tbh 

The was 1 sort of sideways pass. But I'm with you he's not fit for purpose 

[Whitey Grandad]

9 minutes ago, 6ft8saint said:

The was 1 sort of sideways pass. But I'm with you he's not fit for purpose 

I saw that. It was out to our left wing and slightly forward. In rugby it would have been illegal.

[Harry_SFC]

10 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

I’m surprised at the lack of imagination and flex in RM’s team selection. He has 3 CB’s at his disposal to compensate for a weakened defensive midfield, so why not get Stephens into a back three or play him between the CB’s and CDM’s? I’m not a huge JS fan, but he can pass reasonably accurately and has confidence to turn with the ball. The best RM seems able to muster is consistently selecting his mate Manning with typically terrible consequences.

Yep. I don't like 3 at the back normally but if you're weak at full back and in midfield then it does have it's advantages. We obviously aren't used to playing it under Martin but I'm sure it would've made us more solid than we were. 

[Smirking_Saint]

11 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

I’m surprised at the lack of imagination and flex in RM’s team selection. He has 3 CB’s at his disposal to compensate for a weakened defensive midfield, so why not get Stephens into a back three or play him between the CB’s and CDM’s? I’m not a huge JS fan, but he can pass reasonably accurately and has confidence to turn with the ball. The best RM seems able to muster is consistently selecting his mate Manning with typically terrible consequences.

His passing was pretty awful past two games, he just switches off and doesn’t see the danger enough, you get away with it a tad as a wide CB but not as a central CB or DM imo

The answer is frankly Charles, his passing isn’t as crisp as Smallbones but he is a significant upgrade defensively

I think RM has been blindsided by an ambition to maintain possession, its an admirable quality to want that but we aren’t immune to being dispossessed and broken upon from deep, so you frankly HAVE to employ a midfield enforcer (FWOABW) if you are going to push your WBs high

[S-Clarke]

4 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

His passing was pretty awful past two games, he just switches off and doesn’t see the danger enough, you get away with it a tad as a wide CB but not as a central CB or DM imo

The answer is frankly Charles, his passing isn’t as crisp as Smallbones but he is a significant upgrade defensively

I think RM has been blindsided by an ambition to maintain possession, its an admirable quality to want that but we aren’t immune to being dispossessed and broken upon from deep, so you frankly HAVE to employ a midfield enforcer (FWOABW) if you are going to push your WBs high

Yeah, let's not start these 'Stephens as a DM' calls again! He is awful on the ball, gives it away too much - wouldn't want him anywhere near CM.

Charles, like you say, is our only alternative to Downes. He at least has the awareness and discipline to cover, whereas Smallbone just goes walkies.

Edited February 22 by S-Clarke

[Saint Fan CaM]

12 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Yeah, let's not start these 'Stephens as a DM' calls again! He is awful on the ball, gives it away too much - wouldn't want him anywhere near CM.

Charles, like you say, is our only alternative to Downes. He at least has the awareness and discipline to cover, whereas Smallbone just goes walkies.

You’ve mixed DM and CM up there…of course Stephens is not a CM, but he’s as capable of performing at DM as he is at LB, RB or indeed CB.  He doesn’t have to be a silky smooth passer…he needs to use his experience and muscle to support the full-backs, break up play and put the fear of Jesus into forwards. Not sure Charles has those attributes in his locker yet or at least he’s not displayed them particularly well.

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

You’ve mixed DM and CM up there…of course Stephens is not a CM, but he’s as capable of performing at DM as he is at LB, RB or indeed CB.  He doesn’t have to be a silky smooth passer…he needs to use his experience and muscle to support the full-backs, break up play and put the fear of Jesus into forwards. Not sure Charles has those attributes in his locker yet or at least he’s not displayed them particularly well.

DM is still CM though, same position really. I don't think you could play him there.

He can operate at LB/RB, totally different ball game in DM. He's too slow to react and doesn't smell danger, so he'd be left on his arse most of the time if he was left in DM imo.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

DM is still CM though, same position really. I don't think you could play him there.

He can operate at LB/RB, totally different ball game in DM. He's too slow to react and doesn't smell danger, so he'd be left on his arse most of the time if he was left in DM imo.

TBF we played jermaine wright all over the place in the championship.

[Saint Fan CaM]

20 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

DM is still CM though, same position really. I don't think you could play him there.

He can operate at LB/RB, totally different ball game in DM. He's too slow to react and doesn't smell danger, so he'd be left on his arse most of the time if he was left in DM imo.

Maybe, but I was not advocating that he replaced a DM (or CM), but put him in front the CB’s to provide extra defensive cover across the width of the pitch wherever he was needed.

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

On 20/02/2024 at 20:55, Mr X said:

Don't think anyone on here truly believed we were 

A lot of people were getting very giddy far too soon. Today's result against Millwall yet again confirms that Saints are nowhere near Premiership standard as a thumping at Liverpool next week will show.