Saints 1-2 Hull - Match Thread

[6ft8saint]

Right enough rants. Bring on Millwall as they are one of the favourites now to be dragged into relegation with Rotherham.

 

COYR

[Appy]

Fair play to Hull, probably the most impressive team to come to St Mary’s this season, Rosenior set them up perfectly. 
 

Still a long way to go but tonight obviously a huge concern, the three that came on at half time have to start on Saturday, probably along with Fraser. 
 

If KWP is injured we could be in huge bother. 
 

The fans that were screaming to pump it forward the whole game might as well not turn up if they want to see that, it’s not going to happen, surely they should know 33 games into the season. 

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, Appy said:

Fair play to Hull, probably the most impressive team to come to St Mary’s this season, Rosenior set them up perfectly. 
 

Still a long way to go but tonight obviously a huge concern, the three that came on at half time have to start on Saturday, probably along with Fraser. 
 

If KWP is injured we could be in huge bother. 
 

The fans that were screaming to pump it forward the whole game might as well not turn up if they want to see that, it’s not going to happen, surely they should know 33 games into the season. 

There was a funny shout around me in the first half - ''Just hit it long!!!'', so they did what he asked and hit it long on a few occasions. The response to one of them?  ''Absolute shit, why are we hoofing it aimlessly?'' - it was the same person, honestly. 

There were a few ''get it in the mixer' shouts as well, not sure what that would have given us seeing that we only had Edozie and Mara in the 'mixer' at that point.

[SaintBobby]

Truly woeful 1st half. Terrible team selection and also poor performances by many. RM got that badly wrong. Really bad wrong.

Good 2nd half, but not good enough.

Smallbone should not be in the starting XI in my view. He is bang on average across the board (not terrible, just 5/10 at everything).

Not having our two goalscorers from Friday or our best cameo player (Aribo) in the starting line up was absurd given that Downes still wasn't fit.

A very bad night for Martin and possibly a terribly costly one.

[CanadaSaint]

1 minute ago, Appy said:

The fans that were screaming to pump it forward the whole game might as well not turn up if they want to see that, it’s not going to happen, surely they should know 33 games into the season. 

It’s not an either/or though, is it?

It’s more about having a second tool in the toolbox, whether or not the first one’s working. If opponents know we can bypass their press with a faster out-ball they won’t pile in and compress midfield space the way Hull did.

For me, now that more teams are rumbling us, using that second option is the difference between promotion and missing out. Fraser is made for that tactic but the ball needs to be early and in front of him, not late and behind him.

[Mixedkebab]

1 hour ago, Harry_SFC said:

Bazunu; KWP, THB, Bednarek, Bree; Downes, Aribo, Stu, Brooks, Fraser, Adams.

This is the line up id like to see going forwards. 

Adam Armstrong is interchangeable with Brooks but agree otherwise . Brooks was ineffective against Bristol when he started and AA was looking class in the 3 with Fraser and Adams up until then 

[FarehamSaintJames]

I couldn’t work out why we were trying to cross is constantly in the air, anyone else?

Just smash it mid leg height along the ground and it’ll ricochet, more likely to score by smashing it low.

[ally_uk]

Sulemana, Manning, 

Absolute shite and offer us nothing at this level 

 

[Thereisonlyonemickychannon]

Dear oh dear oh dear. Martin is a fraud.

[Saint Fan CaM]

The system is weak against teams with high stamina. Doesn’t help when we’ve got RM doing his best tinkerman and using Manning. There’s no reason to give up on autos yet, but it’s going to be super tough to grab 2nd. Forget Leicester- they’re as good as gone.

[IFHP]

As others have said it was the wrong team from the start . 
 

if he wanted to make changes then he should have made them on Saturday for arguably an easier game then last night .

This result has completely wiped out our great result at West Brom . 

 

[SNSUN]

Autos isn't over but we now need Leeds and Ipswich to slip up more than we slip up between now and the end of the season. Leeds look imperious right now - that will be a tough ask. We have shown a soft underbelly that shows we can be got at. Play-offs is looking increasingly likely and that's a lottery I would rather not have to deal with but just maybe Leicester beat Leeds, we beat Milwall and Brum beat Ipswich and all of a sudden we are back in 2nd spot again, the first team to hit 70 points bar Leicester and wondering why we were worried. Maybe.

 

Maybe.

 

And hell we can smash Leeds and Ipswich anyway right... 😁

[captainchris]

8 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Oooft.

That was a tough watch. We've talked about the strength and depth of our bench. Unfortunately we have decided to start with our weak links in the first eleven. Others aren;t capable of putting a stamp on the game, partly as a result of that.

Downes is the biggest miss. Rothwell isn;t cpable at present of fulfilling that role. We had no control over the midfield and he was constantly giving it away when we had it. Poor decision making on a standard press gifted them their second.

Smallbone looks caught out both defensively and going forward. He makes himself availalbe form the back two. But isn;t a DM. So not much control. Not many passing options around him, so unable to make an impact there either.

Edozie used to just run at defences due to poor decision making. Tonight, he's had very few options around him to help him out.

Manning has offered nothing in support, either wehn trying to push up and offered little defensive cover when Hull have pushed forward.

Mara needs support to thrive. He's not ahd any and has been peripheral.

Half a team of players not anywhere near the required level tonight.

Stu, with a couple of late moments, and AA, who has been very quiet, not able to carry them.

Across the team, we've managed little control, haven;t made much of our possession and have given no real moments of our trademark passing moves. 

Looking forward to a much better second half from us.

Excellent summary

[ChristopheVAFC]

Bad operation for you last night...

I hope you bounce back quickly, as the league's going to be tight all the way.

[wild-saint]

Martin at fault with poor starting lineup. Failed to change it at 1-0. Smallbone can’t play as a CDM receiving the ball facing his own goal. He is unable to turn and his only option is to play backwards putting more pressure on the CB/keeper to beat the press. Leaves the only out as a longer ball. Then leaves the only player capable of holding the ball on the bench to be replaced by lightweight Mara. Add to the mix that Rothwell and Will have zero physical presence in the middle and we have tactical masterclass by Martin.

be Braves calls Martin after  poor performances. How about he is “Brave” and make the change after 20 minutes when it was clear his plan wasn’t going to work and we would have a chance to stay in the game. Adams and Aribo needed to come on then. It was so fucking obvious.

He learnt Nothing from the Bristol game.

lets hope Downes stays fit otherwise I fear a play off defeat listening to More shyte about how unnoticed Smallbone’s contributions are and how pleased we are to have Rothwell in the building.

Lose the arrogance Martin before you throw all the good work away.

Poor team selection and too late responding to the initial mistake. Waiting to half time to make the changes was fucking scandalous. 
 

will he learn from his mistakes or will he get lucky with Downes fitness until the end of the season?

[Midfield_General]

52 minutes ago, wild-saint said:

Martin at fault with poor starting lineup. Failed to change it at 1-0. Smallbone can’t play as a CDM receiving the ball facing his own goal. He is unable to turn and his only option is to play backwards putting more pressure on the CB/keeper to beat the press. Leaves the only out as a longer ball. Then leaves the only player capable of holding the ball on the bench to be replaced by lightweight Mara. Add to the mix that Rothwell and Will have zero physical presence in the middle and we have tactical masterclass by Martin.

Absolutely spot on

[gammon cheeks]

Mara is such a lazy player ..might score the odd goal but his all round  game is pitiful ..not a team player at all 

[austsaint]

1 hour ago, wild-saint said:

Martin at fault with poor starting lineup. Failed to change it at 1-0. Smallbone can’t play as a CDM receiving the ball facing his own goal. He is unable to turn and his only option is to play backwards putting more pressure on the CB/keeper to beat the press. Leaves the only out as a longer ball. Then leaves the only player capable of holding the ball on the bench to be replaced by lightweight Mara. Add to the mix that Rothwell and Will have zero physical presence in the middle and we have tactical masterclass by Martin.

be Braves calls Martin after  poor performances. How about he is “Brave” and make the change after 20 minutes when it was clear his plan wasn’t going to work and we would have a chance to stay in the game. Adams and Aribo needed to come on then. It was so fucking obvious.

He learnt Nothing from the Bristol game.

lets hope Downes stays fit otherwise I fear a play off defeat listening to More shyte about how unnoticed Smallbone’s contributions are and how pleased we are to have Rothwell in the building.

Lose the arrogance Martin before you throw all the good work away.

Poor team selection and too late responding to the initial mistake. Waiting to half time to make the changes was fucking scandalous. 
 

will he learn from his mistakes or will he get lucky with Downes fitness until the end of the season?

Great summary.    I don't think RM is being arrogant - he just seems to have a blind spot with players like Manning and Smallbone...   Too much faith in them; and comments about "unnoticed contributions" and WS doing a great job against Bristol City as the 6 just leave you baffled as to how he can say that.   It really was like a re-run of the Bristol City game - as you say, he really should have reacted to the mistake of the starting line up before half time, that's how obvious the mistakes were.

[die Mannyschaft]

The advantage of the long ball means there is less risk of keeper passing to opposition forward or our players doing a howler. The own 18 yard 70 minute passing is so pedestrian that it's easy to play against. Long ball works so use it.

[Farmer Saint]

We've having to rotate the team due to fixture congestion - RM knows that's not our best team but due to playing every 3.5 days over the last 5 weeks, and the majority of our players having a PL history with far fewer games. 

We're not able to play our best team every game, and it shows. 

[david in sweden]

Hull have got their second wind since New Year and looked very strong - and they didn't tire near the end as many opponents have done before.

They were the better side and deserved the points, but I thought that the result was more than just disappointing for Saints - but more alarming. 

YES- We had previously missed Ché Adams presence, and midfield isn't the same without Downes, who is almost telepathic with Smallbone, but

Downes' injury (30 minutes into the Watford replay), we've tried to paper over the cracks in midfield, but without any success.

Without Adam A. in a strike role, the forward line is weak with just Mara and Edozie,  who have been most effective as subs. coming on after HT.  

 

The so-called turning point was not the roughly-fought win over West Brom. (who didn't play well),  BUT the moment in the first half v. Huddersfield 

when they went two goals up and we looked beaten.  Everyone will remember Saints scoring 5 goals in the second half, when Huddersfield were  

out on their feet at 3-3,  and those two extra Saints goals merely put the icing on a cake, which by then - was ours for the taking. 

In that moment , it wasn't only Saints fans who celebrated, but also those teams we have yet to play, who suddenly saw a way to overcome us. 

 

Last night's result may be another sort of turning point.    It used up our "spare fixture"  and we slumped to 4th. place.  Although we have some 

" easier fixtures on paper " , our remaining games include away games at;  Leicester, Ipswich and the last game of the season ....at Leeds.

All season I've seen the Leeds match as a deal-breaker.   The winner may get an automatic spot, and " the rest " will fight it out in the play-offs. 

If we fail to beat Millwall,  the Cup match at Anfield may end up being the turning of our season, because any more defeats before the end of March 

will leave us beyond  the Point of No Return. 

Edited February 21 by david in sweden

[Lord Duckhunter]

21 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

We've having to rotate the team due to fixture congestion - RM knows that's not our best team but due to playing every 3.5 days over the last 5 weeks, and the majority of our players having a PL history with far fewer games. 

We're not able to play our best team every game, and it shows. 

So why bring Manning in when Stephen’s has played far fewer games lately? 

[Saint Billy]

If you are going to rotate squad don't put a weaker lineup against a side in form. That starting lineup was so wrong especially considering Hull's away record.

What really fecks me off is this continual desire to have Bazuna play the ball out near and around our own box whilst being high pressed by opposition. The amount of goals we have conceded doing this is a joke and yet every game it continues.

I put that result squarely at the feet of RM. He has done really well this season but needs to wise up as the better teams are sussing him out.

[musesaint]

Wrong team from the start with too many unnecessary and very obvious weak links. Wrong set up. Wrong tactics  

Russell Martin seems to haven’t learnt nothing from the Bristol City result. 

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I know that 25 match unbeaten run was impressive but there were quite a few ordinary performances in there when we didn't really look that convincing. Some excellent 45 minutes followed by some dross as we sat back. In three of our last four matches we have been found out, starting horribly in all three. I think 4th is about right for us and I am resigned to a play off position. But a part of me dreads going up (if we are successful) as there will be helluva lot of rebuilding required (no shit sherlock), if we are not going to become canon fodder a la Burnley and Sheffield Utd.

[beatlesaint]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

We've having to rotate the team due to fixture congestion - RM knows that's not our best team but due to playing every 3.5 days over the last 5 weeks, and the majority of our players having a PL history with far fewer games. 

We're not able to play our best team every game, and it shows. 

We played Friday, Hull played Saturday.

Hull is the stronger opposition in this two home game run, make your changes Saturday, go strong against the strongest team. Adams and Aribo didnt start/play Friday, they could have both come in. Charles didnt play 90 mins Friday, he could have sat in that CDM role instead of the dreadful Smallbonbe/Rothwell combo.

I appreciate what you are saying but on this occasion it doesnt really stack up very well.

Edited February 21 by beatlesaint

[Mr Nimbus]

That first half was baffling. I thought Martin should have looked to address the man marking job their number 5 did on Stu. He was absolutely all over him.

I think we need to find a way to get Brooks in the team from the off and then there's one spot open on the left (AA will always start for Martin and despie recent performances his figures support that)

I was really surprised to see Charles on the bench, we simply had no-one who could link it in CM.

Long way to go but I think we're going to need to win 8-10 games which is a huge ask, but not unachievable with this squad.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

12 minutes ago, Mr Nimbus said:

That first half was baffling. I thought Martin should have looked to address the man marking job their number 5 did on Stu. He was absolutely all over him.

I think we need to find a way to get Brooks in the team from the off and then there's one spot open on the left (AA will always start for Martin and despie recent performances his figures support that)

I was really surprised to see Charles on the bench, we simply had no-one who could link it in CM.

Long way to go but I think we're going to need to win 8-10 games which is a huge ask, but not unachievable with this squad.

Maybe achievable with the squad. Is it achievable with the manager though?

[obelisk]

16 minutes ago, Mr Nimbus said:

That first half was baffling. I thought Martin should have looked to address the man marking job their number 5 did on Stu. He was absolutely all over him.

I think we need to find a way to get Brooks in the team from the off and then there's one spot open on the left (AA will always start for Martin and despie recent performances his figures support that)

I was really surprised to see Charles on the bench, we simply had no-one who could link it in CM.

Long way to go but I think we're going to need to win 8-10 games which is a huge ask, but not unachievable with this squad.

Not sure that even 10 more wins will be enough for automatic promotion this season. Current form would make that unlikely anyway. Hopefully RM wouldn't tinker with selection when it comes to play-off games though.

[St Louis]

5 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Maybe achievable with the squad. Is it achievable with the manager though?

I know we were poor last night (but Hull are a very decent side, so no disgrace and needs perspective.... we cant win every week, etc), but Martin has just taken us on a record unbeaten run with some superb football and results along the way. Are you still not convinced by him? A couple of recent results aside, I havent enjoyed watching a Saints team as much as this for a LONG time, and surely the manager deserves the credit for that.

[Wade Garrett]

11 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

Bazunu; KWP, THB, Bednarek, Bree; Downes, Aribo, Stu, Brooks, Fraser, Adams.

This is the line up id like to see going forwards. 

Absolutely spot-on.

Manager has to stop worrying about players who are not playing.  You play your best XI, end of.

 

[Chewy]

3 hours ago, wild-saint said:

Martin at fault with poor starting lineup. Failed to change it at 1-0. Smallbone can’t play as a CDM receiving the ball facing his own goal. He is unable to turn and his only option is to play backwards putting more pressure on the CB/keeper to beat the press. Leaves the only out as a longer ball. Then leaves the only player capable of holding the ball on the bench to be replaced by lightweight Mara. Add to the mix that Rothwell and Will have zero physical presence in the middle and we have tactical masterclass by Martin.

be Braves calls Martin after  poor performances. How about he is “Brave” and make the change after 20 minutes when it was clear his plan wasn’t going to work and we would have a chance to stay in the game. Adams and Aribo needed to come on then. It was so fucking obvious.

He learnt Nothing from the Bristol game.

lets hope Downes stays fit otherwise I fear a play off defeat listening to More shyte about how unnoticed Smallbone’s contributions are and how pleased we are to have Rothwell in the building.

Lose the arrogance Martin before you throw all the good work away.

Poor team selection and too late responding to the initial mistake. Waiting to half time to make the changes was fucking scandalous. 
 

will he learn from his mistakes or will he get lucky with Downes fitness until the end of the season?

Pretty much this. The midfield combo was non-existent and there were no alternatives on the pitch, so it needed changing. We all saw how it was going after about 15 minutes.

Hull were set up brilliantly but RM didn’t respond, just asked his players to do more of the same but somehow better.  Only they couldn’t because they were very obviously the wrong players for the job required.
 

The most annoying thing for me is we can all see these tactical issues. Whenever we play with 2 attacking full backs and no proper cdm or physical midfielder we ship goals by the bucket load. 3 v Huddersfield, 3 v Bristol, somehow only 2 last night. Strengthen here and we don’t like v West Brom, the best of the four sides we just played (arguable them or Hull).
Please learn this lesson; it was there in September and it’s here again now.  We need some more strength here; it means clean sheets which means countless unbeaten games like we’ve just done!
Please stop the Rothwell experiment, he’s behind Downes, Aribo and Smallbone; and if Downes is N/A probably behind Shea Charles too. I loved his goals v Hull but he has not earned the right to a starting spot in this team.

Please bin off Manning for now. I don’t like bandwagons against players but his confidence is shot.

And please - as excellently stated in this post - please be as brave as you claim your players need to be in changing early enough when you’ve very obviously screwed up.

Overall it’s been a really promising season - please don’t screw it up

 

[Wade Garrett]

11 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

I've said it time and again but Smallbone as the CDM is just a complete disaster.

We've now conceded 8 goals in 3 games with him in that position. How can Martin not see this?

It beggars belief.  He cannot play that role.  It’s plain for everyone to see.

[Whitey Grandad]

12 minutes ago, St Louis said:

I know we were poor last night (but Hull are a very decent side, so no disgrace and needs perspective.... we cant win every week, etc), but Martin has just taken us on a record unbeaten run with some superb football and results along the way. Are you still not convinced by him? A couple of recent results aside, I havent enjoyed watching a Saints team as much as this for a LONG time, and surely the manager deserves the credit for that.

No.

Last night’s abject performance was entirely down to Martin. His starting selection never stood a chance. It was obvious from the kickoff that our team shape was a mess. Apart from the back four we had no cohesion. Smallbone and Rothwell in midfield were swamped by a team who were playing with understanding and purpose.

It was a mess.

[Wade Garrett]

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

We've having to rotate the team due to fixture congestion - RM knows that's not our best team but due to playing every 3.5 days over the last 5 weeks, and the majority of our players having a PL history with far fewer games. 

We're not able to play our best team every game, and it shows. 

We did the last time we got promoted.  The league still has the same amount of teams in it.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

21 minutes ago, St Louis said:

I know we were poor last night (but Hull are a very decent side, so no disgrace and needs perspective.... we cant win every week, etc), but Martin has just taken us on a record unbeaten run with some superb football and results along the way. Are you still not convinced by him? A couple of recent results aside, I havent enjoyed watching a Saints team as much as this for a LONG time, and surely the manager deserves the credit for that.

He's got credit in the bank for sure. But for me, why mess around with the starting eleven so much. The team that started Friday should have been the team that started last night. He bangs on about managing minutes and keeping players happy, but we are a professional football club. Not my son's under 12 Tyro league team. If they aren't happy about not playing, so what? 

[gio1saints]

Here’s my take, all with the benefit of hindsight of course; 

1. RM messed around a winning team needlessly. There was a strong case to play the excellent and winning starting eleven from the WBA game - but that was overlooked in favour of essentially giving minutes to players and tinkering around with tactics. Nobody would have criticised putting out the same team. And I dare say it would have performed better. 

2. Both the selections and the tactics were very quickly shown to be ill advised. NOT changing the tactics or the team fast enough when that was abundantly evident showed lack of flexibility - and perhaps over-attachment to dogma. 
 

3. There was no lack of effort imo but the players were hamstrung by the poor match tactics and by the ill advised changes. To single out individuals playing badly or uncomfortably or inefficiently in that set up is to miss the main culprit- Russell.

4. Hull were very effective and excellently set up with some strong joined up play abilities. Certainly play off contenders. 
 

5. Sometimes. Many times. RM has got it right and we look smooth classy and take teams apart. When we misfire as in recent matches, it looks simply awful. There has to be a step somewhere inbetween - because if we are not turning teams over like we were before the alternative cannot be conceding 2 goals before half time like this two home matches running. 
 

6. The WBA match first twenty five was what we CAN do. But the matches v Huddersfield and now Hull and certainly for long spells in other matches we have shown both mental and tactical flakiness.
 

7. My personal opinion of course but from where I was standing it looked like many of the players lacked absolute belief in what they were doing.  And again that down to the Manager. 
 

I praise him when he’s good, I defend him when he’s criticised unfairly ( as he’s was earlier in season) and even more when him and team get personal abuse - but in this instance I’d say fault squarely on RM. He and the coaches have got some serious soul searching to do with the squad before next match. As do some of the players. 

[St Louis]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

No.

Last night’s abject performance was entirely down to Martin. His starting selection never stood a chance. It was obvious from the kickoff that our team shape was a mess. Apart from the back four we had no cohesion. Smallbone and Rothwell in midfield were swamped by a team who were playing with understanding and purpose.

It was a mess.

Agreed, last night was a mess and down to Martin. The thread I was replying to was looking at the bigger picture (not just last night) and someone suggesting we might not have the right manager in place for promotion, and I was just pointing out that he has done a brilliant job IMHO taking us on the best run in our history, and to me has a lot of indicators that he will be a success with us. Personally I look at the huge number of positives since September, rather than just the last week (which hasnt been so good).

[saintant]

10 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

It’s not an either/or though, is it?

It’s more about having a second tool in the toolbox, whether or not the first one’s working. If opponents know we can bypass their press with a faster out-ball they won’t pile in and compress midfield space the way Hull did.

For me, now that more teams are rumbling us, using that second option is the difference between promotion and missing out. Fraser is made for that tactic but the ball needs to be early and in front of him, not late and behind him.

Exactly this. If a team sets up like Hull with an obvious intent to press the hell out of us when we pass it around at the back there must be an alternative play. It's up to RM and his staff to work out what that is but with the numbers Hull committed to the press they must have left gaps and a shortage of bodies in other areas which we should have been smart enough to exploit. Possibly we should have been playing quick hard passes into our midfield and they should have been receiving these on the half turn to launch counter attacks to two wingers hugging the touchlines and a forward through the middle. Also more low trajectory balls form Baz over the top to the flanks to two wide men. There simply must be space to exploit when a side presses like Hull did. Unfortunately RM didn't help himself with his team selection. In what world do he and his coaches sit down and decide that our starting midfield was good enough to cope against Hull? It's bonkers.

[saintant]

4 hours ago, wild-saint said:

Martin at fault with poor starting lineup. Failed to change it at 1-0. Smallbone can’t play as a CDM receiving the ball facing his own goal. He is unable to turn and his only option is to play backwards putting more pressure on the CB/keeper to beat the press. Leaves the only out as a longer ball. Then leaves the only player capable of holding the ball on the bench to be replaced by lightweight Mara. Add to the mix that Rothwell and Will have zero physical presence in the middle and we have tactical masterclass by Martin.

be Braves calls Martin after  poor performances. How about he is “Brave” and make the change after 20 minutes when it was clear his plan wasn’t going to work and we would have a chance to stay in the game. Adams and Aribo needed to come on then. It was so fucking obvious.

He learnt Nothing from the Bristol game.

lets hope Downes stays fit otherwise I fear a play off defeat listening to More shyte about how unnoticed Smallbone’s contributions are and how pleased we are to have Rothwell in the building.

Lose the arrogance Martin before you throw all the good work away.

Poor team selection and too late responding to the initial mistake. Waiting to half time to make the changes was fucking scandalous. 
 

will he learn from his mistakes or will he get lucky with Downes fitness until the end of the season?

Some sensible points here and I absolutely agree that RM should have made changes after 20 minutes when it was crystal clear that his car-crash team selection was not and would not work. That would have shown the bravery he himself always demands but he bottled it.

[Wade Garrett]

3 minutes ago, saintant said:

Exactly this. If a team sets up like Hull with an obvious intent to press the hell out of us when we pass it around at the back there must be an alternative play. It's up to RM and his staff to work out what that is but with the numbers Hull committed to the press they must have left gaps and a shortage of bodies in other areas which we should have been smart enough to exploit. Possibly we should have been playing quick hard passes into our midfield and they should have been receiving these on the half turn to launch counter attacks to two wingers hugging the touchlines and a forward through the middle. Also more low trajectory balls form Baz over the top to the flanks to two wide men. There simply must be space to exploit when a side presses like Hull did. Unfortunately RM didn't help himself with his team selection. In what world do he and his coaches sit down and decide that our starting midfield was good enough to cope against Hull? It's bonkers.

It’s not rocket science that you keep your wide players out wide when you’re being constantly closed down.

Successful managers find a way for their teams to win games.  You cannot be wedded to one way of playing.  You’ll be found out.  Even Man City get the ball forward quickly sometimes and like to play long balls switching the play.  

I don’t want to slag the manager off, but if he wants to be successful his Plan B can no longer be to execute Plan A better.  It’s bullshit.

[saintant]

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

We've having to rotate the team due to fixture congestion - RM knows that's not our best team but due to playing every 3.5 days over the last 5 weeks, and the majority of our players having a PL history with far fewer games. 

We're not able to play our best team every game, and it shows. 

That doesn't excuse the team selection. None of the players who came on looked as though they wouldn't have done a job from the start. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, saintant said:

Some sensible points here and I absolutely agree that RM should have made changes after 20 minutes when it was crystal clear that his car-crash team selection was not and would not work. That would have shown the bravery he himself always demands but he bottled it.

Agree with this and your previous post. Our tactics are one dimensional and in reality are easy to play against. Hull did a number on us by pressing hard and RM did not (or more worryingly) could not adapt. If we couldn't play through the press, then we needed to play over. That sort of stuff is simple, as is having midfielders able to receive the ball quickly on the half turn and play it between or over the lines, but Smallbone in particular is incapable of that. I could go on, but the points have been made.

Last night was a horror show tactically. The fact that he started as he did, and didn't change it, doesn't convince me that RM can or will change things. 

[Jack]

11 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

It’s not an either/or though, is it?

It’s more about having a second tool in the toolbox, whether or not the first one’s working. If opponents know we can bypass their press with a faster out-ball they won’t pile in and compress midfield space the way Hull did.

For me, now that more teams are rumbling us, using that second option is the difference between promotion and missing out. Fraser is made for that tactic but the ball needs to be early and in front of him, not late and behind him.

Exactly this. We did the first bit right - drawing the press. But instead of then trying to beat the press we’d just give it back to someone too tightly marked and give it away in a dangerous spot. Shambolic. 
 

2nd half much better in that we had Adams to hold it up and get us up the pitch, but the damage was done. 

[S-Clarke]

5 minutes ago, Jack said:

Exactly this. We did the first bit right - drawing the press. But instead of then trying to beat the press we’d just give it back to someone too tightly marked and give it away in a dangerous spot. Shambolic. 
 

2nd half much better in that we had Adams to hold it up and get us up the pitch, but the damage was done. 

Like other's have said, the critical element of this tactic when it's countered is the out ball. That's either down the flanks with arcuate passes to the wide players, or over the top to a striker who can hold it and bring others in. If you do that, there's space and things open up.

But we were aiming balls at Sam Edozie and Armstrong's head, which was totally the wrong thing - and they were both very, very static in their movement. Mara was the definition of useless in terms of an outlet, so we were pretty much playing with 10 men for that first half and we had no way to get out. The team was full of all the wrong players to be able to execute the counter to the high press.

Edited February 21 by S-Clarke

[saintant]

In the first half we clearly couldn't get to grips with their aggressive press. We continually tried to pass it around at the back - it was a case of ever decreasing circles and time after time a player had no options and had to pass back to Baz who then had no option other than a hopeful punt forward. We should not be painting ourselves into a corner like that. RM should have spotted this very early and made changes/adjustments - that is a big part of his remit as a coach and, if he is not capable of pro-action, he has a huge gap in his CV.

[Farmer Saint]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So why bring Manning in when Stephen’s has played far fewer games lately? 

Because he played last Friday and is used to the Championship fixture pile-up. Exactly the point I made above. 

[Farmer Saint]

2 hours ago, beatlesaint said:

We played Friday, Hull played Saturday.

Hull is the stronger opposition in this two home game run, make your changes Saturday, go strong against the strongest team. Adams and Aribo didnt start/play Friday, they could have both come in. Charles didnt play 90 mins Friday, he could have sat in that CDM role instead of the dreadful Smallbonbe/Rothwell combo.

I appreciate what you are saying but on this occasion it doesnt really stack up very well.

I am talking over a number of weeks, we have played more games than Hull. If it was just 2 games in a week then that probably would have happened. 

Also, one of the issues levelled at Shea since he arrived is his fitness does not really seem that good. 

[Farmer Saint]

58 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

We did the last time we got promoted.  The league still has the same amount of teams in it.

Again, we have mostly players who are used to a PL schedule. The majority of these players are not. When we got promoted previously, they were, as they were mostly L1 and Championship players. 

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

Again, we have mostly players who are used to a PL schedule. The majority of these players are not. When we got promoted previously, they were, as they were mostly L1 and Championship players. 

You're talking as if these guys are pampered PL players and have never played at this level.

Armstrong, Adams, Downes, THB, Manning, Fraser, Brooks, Stephens, Smallbone, Rothwell have all played regular Championship football in their careers, some as recent as just last season. I don't buy that the players are only used to a PL schedule, that's nonsense.