Che Adams

[Holmes_and_Watson]

4 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

I think I tried to make this point on the "stop the sales" thread. Not very well, but can someone please try and explain to me what the variables are here and what's "out of our hands"?

It seems to me there are three options. Not two.

1. We say "you're staying. No one has matched our valuation, so you are serving out the last year of your contract here at £40K a week. At the end of the season, you are a free agent"

2. Someone matches our valuation, whatever it is. Most likely Everton. Most likely about £15m. We can argue about what that valuation should be, but at some point the club sells. If some Saudi club offers £200m for him, do you think  we should  say "no"? (obvs, not going to happen, just an illustration).

But why can't we do....

3. We say "we'd like you to stay. We will bump your pay from (say)  £40K to £60k per week, with a big promotion bonus on a new three year contract. But we will include a release clause meaning that you can go to any other club next June if a bid of (say) £10m is received."

Why are we locked into 1 or 2? I'm not saying Adams or his agent jumps at option 3. But it should be on the table. And surely, to him, is more attractive than option 1?

I think a new contract wasn't agreed when we were in the division above, when he was still on prem league wages.

So, he's more likely to want to get back to at least that, and possibly more, with his new club. A lower fee, as he's in his final year, could boost those wages further.

SR 's policy has been to lower the wage bill and offering such a deal would go against that. It's a policy they stick with, even as they brought in players last window in desperation, that may cost us more overall.

The minute the others hear about it, they'll all wonder why they can't renegotiate their contracts to offset the 40% drop penalty. That might impact performances.

So, while it's no bad thing to have such flexible options in mind, J can see reasons why neither side would want it, on this occasion.

[SaintBobby]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

We’ve just got relegated mate. A whole bunch of employees lost their job and you’re suggesting one on the pitch gets a pay rise. 

Yep. If JWP had said "I'll stay if you give me an extra fiver", I'd have said "yes".

[MarkSFC]

2 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

We’ve just got relegated mate. A whole bunch of employees lost their job and you’re suggesting one on the pitch gets a pay rise. 

Did they? 

Edited 23 August, 2023 by MarkSFC
Spelling

[verlaine1979]

Curious that Adams and Armstrong have pretty much identical minutes per goal/assist in the Championship (about 1 ever 160 mins), but only Che is "guaranteed to get goals" at this level?

[Saint_clark]

11 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

Well, he earns an extra £20K a week for 3 years then.

There aren't any "guarantees". Maybe he sees out hsi contract here...but picks up a bad injury and can't play football at a high level again.

To say "there are no circumstances in which signing a contract is beneficial to him" is surely wrong. If we offer him £100K a week for life, I bet he'd sign!

It's all on a spectrum, I think. Not black or white.

You're right. I should have said there is no realistic circumstance in which him signing a new contract is beneficial to him without the power of seeing into the future. 

[Saint_clark]

Just now, verlaine1979 said:

Curious that Adams and Armstrong have pretty much identical minutes per goal/assist in the Championship (about 1 ever 160 mins), but only Che is "guaranteed to get goals" at this level?

I think everyone agrees Armstrong can get goals at this level, but so far even with him having the same amount of goals as Che he still doesn't look confident. His goals have come from two penalties and a shot from Tella bouncing off the back of his head, not the same quality. 

[SaintBobby]

3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

You're right. I should have said there is no realistic circumstance in which him signing a new contract is beneficial to him without the power of seeing into the future. 

yeah, that's true of all financial arrangements - from buying a house, to buying shares to placing a bet on the horses.

[verlaine1979]

1 minute ago, Saint_clark said:

I think everyone agrees Armstrong can get goals at this level, but so far even with him having the same amount of goals as Che he still doesn't look confident. His goals have come from two penalties and a shot from Tella bouncing off the back of his head, not the same quality. 

If we're rating them on confidence, I suggest we wait until Che has a chance in which he needs to do more than just whack it hard in a straight line. The lad is not exactly known for the calm poise of his finishing.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

So far AA offers more in a different position. He can still get lots of appearances while Che/Che replacement plays up front.

[Saint_clark]

2 minutes ago, verlaine1979 said:

If we're rating them on confidence, I suggest we wait until Che has a chance in which he needs to do more than just whack it hard in a straight line. The lad is not exactly known for the calm poise of his finishing.

I think his goals so far this season have been the embodiment of calm finishing, personally.

[SaintBobby]

Isn't the problem that we need both CA and AA? It doesn't matter which you prefer...we are weaker if we lose either...

[chiknsmack]

.

Edited 23 August, 2023 by chiknsmack

[ErwinK1961]

8 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

I think everyone agrees Armstrong can get goals at this level, but so far even with him having the same amount of goals as Che he still doesn't look confident. His goals have come from two penalties and a shot from Tella bouncing off the back of his head, not the same quality. 

It’s funny you don’t care about the stats now (3 in 3)… it’s almost as if they only tell half a story?

[Saint_clark]

4 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

It’s funny you don’t care about the stats now (3 in 3)… it’s almost as if they only tell half a story?

I didn't say I don't care about the stats, I said he doesn't look confident still because of the fortunate nature of the goals scored. 

[Sheaf Saint]

3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I didn't say I don't care about the stats, I said he doesn't look confident still because of the fortunate nature of the goals scored. 

But goals breed confidence with strikers like that. Seen it loads of times over the years where a striker on a barren run, looking devoid of all confidence, gets a fortunate goal which has jump-started a run of good form. Yeah he will still have off days, as all strikers do, but the fact he has already got 3 goals to his name already this season will do wonders for his mindset.

Also, both his penalties were well taken so you can't just discount them as 'fortunate'. That's disingenuous to say the least.

If he can get back to the level he was playing at in his 28 goal season at Blackburn, which is entirely possible, then he will be a huge asset to us this season.

[RedArmy]

9 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Curious that Adams and Armstrong have pretty much identical minutes per goal/assist in the Championship (about 1 ever 160 mins), but only Che is "guaranteed to get goals" at this level?

Curious that only one of them has interest from the Premier League. 

[SotonianWill]

9 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

Take a step back and ask yourself how you've got to a stage were you genuinely believe this please. You've watched him over the last few years just like we all have.

I think he was always a good player. Can't finish a 1v1 to save his life, but still turns into prime Pele in this league for some reason. Any alternative signing is likely to downgrade our chances of going up imo. 

[RedArmy]

9 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

Also, on this point, and it’ll be my last because it’s even more dull discussing it, have some self respect ffs. You’ve watched this guy and other players in this squad for years now consistently not give you value for money. Don’t reward them now just because the level they’ve dragged us down to is lower. We shouldn’t be entertaining any of them tbh, let alone making one captain and another the key striker to our success. Like I said, have some self respect and start demanding better, not the same at a lower level. 

I despised these cunts last season, but last season is over now we can’t dwell on it for the rest of this season, and there’s no point cutting our noses is off to spite our faces either. 
Lavia aside our recruitment hasn’t exactly been great recently so do you really trust the club to find a striker that’ll score more goals than Adams this season? I’m not sure I do. 
 

Of all the positions in this team that we need to “demand better” from, at this moment in time Striker is not one of them. 

[rallyboy]

This has all the potential to be one of those rare transfer deals that doesn't work for anyone.

He's already demonstrated that he cannot score goals in a poor Premier League side, so I can't see him ripping up trees at Everton, and we need a good Championship striker, which I believe he is.

Everton fans will hate him if he doesn't score a few, he'll become a figure of fun, the only winners could be his agent and his bank manager.

It's a massive gamble for him.

 

[Fabrice29]

12 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

I think he was always a good player. Can't finish a 1v1 to save his life, but still turns into prime Pele in this league for some reason. Any alternative signing is likely to downgrade our chances of going up imo. 

3 goals in 3 games does not mean you’re prime Pele. Nor does 3 further seasons in this league and only hitting double figures once. 

[Fabrice29]

10 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

I despised these cunts last season, but last season is over now we can’t dwell on it for the rest of this season, and there’s no point cutting our noses is off to spite our faces either. 
Lavia aside our recruitment hasn’t exactly been great recently so do you really trust the club to find a striker that’ll score more goals than Adams this season? I’m not sure I do. 
 

Of all the positions in this team that we need to “demand better” from, at this moment in time Striker is not one of them. 

We have a new recruitment team. If it was the same debacle as last year maybe I wouldn’t but the positive reset off the pitch should be allowed to provide one on the pitch. 
 

And striker is the one position we’ve demanded better from for 2/3 years now. Don’t see why having dragged us to a lower level we should suddenly be grateful for what we’ve got.

[Chez]

1 minute ago, rallyboy said:

It's a massive gamble for him.

 

From a financial point if view, there is very little downside to a move to a Prem side.

[Fabrice29]

3 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

This has all the potential to be one of those rare transfer deals that doesn't work for anyone.

He's already demonstrated that he cannot score goals in a poor Premier League side, so I can't see him ripping up trees at Everton, and we need a good Championship striker, which I believe he is.

Everton fans will hate him if he doesn't score a few, he'll become a figure of fun, the only winners could be his agent and his bank manager.

It's a massive gamble for him.

 

Btw, even amongst the people who think he’s prime Pele, it’s the people like this who think he should be grateful for staying with us and should cast aside any ambition he has of playing at the top level if given the opportunity, that come across as the biggest fools of the lot. 

[Chez]

9 hours ago, SaintBobby said:

I think I tried to make this point on the "stop the sales" thread. Not very well, but can someone please try and explain to me what the variables are here and what's "out of our hands"?

It seems to me there are three options. Not two.

1. We say "you're staying. No one has matched our valuation, so you are serving out the last year of your contract here at £40K a week. At the end of the season, you are a free agent"

2. Someone matches our valuation, whatever it is. Most likely Everton. Most likely about £15m. We can argue about what that valuation should be, but at some point the club sells. If some Saudi club offers £200m for him, do you think  we should  say "no"? (obvs, not going to happen, just an illustration).

But why can't we do....

3. We say "we'd like you to stay. We will bump your pay from (say)  £40K to £60k per week, with a big promotion bonus on a new three year contract. But we will include a release clause meaning that you can go to any other club next June if a bid of (say) £10m is received."

Why are we locked into 1 or 2? I'm not saying Adams or his agent jumps at option 3. But it should be on the table. And surely, to him, is more attractive than option 1?

 

 

 

 

You keep going on about offering him a new deal, but fail to acknowledge that we tried that already and failed, not to mention any offer we can make now we are in the championship is likely to be blown out the water by Everton, in the prem.

There is no reason for him to sign a new contract now when he knows a Prem side wants him. He can walk on a free and get a huge signing on fee next summer. You don't give that possibility up.

[SotonianWill]

28 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

3 goals in 3 games does not mean you’re prime Pele. Nor does 3 further seasons in this league and only hitting double figures once. 

I can't see how you don't think he's an asset in this league. Other than the fact you clearly have a massive agenda against him fishing up stats from when he was a young player 20 odd not scoring double figures. We signed him at 22 off the back of scoring over 20 goals in this league. He's come into this league and done the job asked of him thus far. He's not a great premier league player but with our strike force he'd be the last one to sell right now.

Edited 24 August, 2023 by SotonianWill

[Toadhall Saint]

17 minutes ago, Chez said:

You keep going on about offering him a new deal, but fail to acknowledge that we tried that already and failed, not to mention any offer we can make now we are in the championship is likely to be blown out the water by Everton, in the prem.

There is no reason for him to sign a new contract now when he knows a Prem side wants him. He can walk on a free and get a huge signing on fee next summer. You don't give that possibility up.

This and I’m not sure why it is not understood by some. We offered a prem contract which he refused.

[Kenilworthy]

I fully understand why he would want to get back to the Premier League. But if I was advising him I would say to stay well clear of Everton where his reputation is likely to be diminished and he will have the crowd on his back, but if Palace or Forest are in then to go for it.

[derry]

Che Adams's record as a striker, specifically scoring goals, apart from a season at Birmingham in the Championship isn't very good. What? one every five or six matches. Over the three years he has been here the only consistent thing he has done is not score. Last year he was a prolific misser of chances, The only certain thing this season is that he has scored three goals however there is no certainty considering his track record that he will be prolific for the rest of the season. Adam Armstrong however hard anyone argues hasn't scored from play this season. Being given Tella's goal on a brush off the back of his head whilst ducking out of the way doesn't cut it for me. He has otherwise performed well. Whether Adams stays or goes we still need to bring in a consistent goalscorer and keep Tella and Sullemana. If we are going all out for promotion then that investment is necessary. 

[Yozzman]

6 minutes ago, Kenilworthy said:

I fully understand why he would want to get back to the Premier League. But if I was advising him I would say to stay well clear of Everton where his reputation is likely to be diminished and he will have the crowd on his back, but if Palace or Forest are in then to go for it.

I think he needs to see the videos of Anthony Gordon and Yerry Mina in the street after a game before he signs for Everton.

[derry]

I see that the investors lined up by Everton have pulled out as the company that has loans currently with Everton have a legal right to take any investment against the loan.The investors will still support the stadium however reading between the lines Everton apparently won't own it. Financially they look a basket case, even current transfers look difficult to finance.

[Fabrice29]

55 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

I can't see how you don't think he's an asset in this league. Other than the fact you clearly have a massive agenda against him fishing up stats from when he was a young player 20 odd not scoring double figures. We signed him at 22 off the back of scoring over 20 goals in this league. He's come into this league and done the job asked of him thus far. He's not a great premier league player but with our strike force he'd be the last one to sell right now.

Just to be clear I like Che, his attitude and application seem great. Clearly a good bloke too. No agenda or issue with him personally and yeah, I even think he’s an asset to us in this league or even in the PL. But he’s been underwhelming goal scoring wise, he’s a symbol of our decline over a few years now and he’s had zero interest in signing a new contract for us until possibly this window is over and he’s not gone anywhere. I don’t think he’s irreplaceable, I’ve seen the best of him and it’s fine at best in terms of being a target man but he’s had his chance of scoring regular goals for us and he’s not done it, I don’t think we should be missing out on getting £10m plus for him and I do think we should be targeting a new striker as we should have done for the last 2 years. I find the fact that he’s been part of a team that’s dragged us down to the Championship and then been given unsellable status amongst fans absolutely nuts. 
 

Loads of people have scored 20 plus goals in this league. It’s not an impossible task to find someone who can do it and we should aspire to be better than what we currently have at all times. If we can’t find a 20 plus goal scorer then that’s an issue with our team not selling Che.

Edited 24 August, 2023 by Fabrice29

[Saint Garrett]

If they had gone down, like they arguably should have, they would have been in an absolute mess.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

3 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

If they had gone down, like they arguably should have, they would have been in an absolute mess.

Am stunned that Pickford is still there. Few clubs were changing keepers this close season. Surprised Spurs weren't in for him.

[saintant]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

You keep going on about offering him a new deal, but fail to acknowledge that we tried that already and failed, not to mention any offer we can make now we are in the championship is likely to be blown out the water by Everton, in the prem.

There is no reason for him to sign a new contract now when he knows a Prem side wants him. He can walk on a free and get a huge signing on fee next summer. You don't give that possibility up.

I'm pretty sure, looking at the state Everton are in financially, we could match or better anything they can offer. That depends on whether we are keen to keep him or have good alternatives waiting in the wings. Either way this needs to be resolved soon or we could be left facing another last minute scramble for a striker and, our experience tells us, that does not end well. Everton need to do a deal now or we should tell them to look elsewhere.

[Saint86]

37 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

If they had gone down, like they arguably should have, they would have been in an absolute mess.

It will be even worse next summer after a year of scraping the barrel and signing shit sub standard players to try and stay up. One to definetly savour. They have a bleak few years ahead. 

[jimmer42]

19 hours ago, egg said:

I haven't said that can just walk out!

However, the club won't let him just walk out on a free next year. They'll sell him, we'll get a fee, he'll get a pay rise, and get to lose PL matches most weeks. 

Frankly, discussion around him is a bit tedious. We've got some people who see the obvious as per the above, and others who can't see the reality and think that he should stay because they've now decided he's brilliant. 

You might be missing a couple of other facts that might impact this though

Everton are skint and by that i mean dangerously skint. In addition, they are now falling foul of FFP and  restrictions on further purchases and need to sell players to balance the books

As a consequence they are looking very likely they will go down. The club is in a mess on and off the pitch. I think most players would need to be out of their minds to consider going there at the moment. Che might well be better off grabbing 20+ goals this year and being a free agent in the summer. Southampton might be happy with this also as the financial benefit of promotion partially due to his goals may well exceed the £10-15m we'd get for him minus the cost of a replacement. Alernatively,  Che amd Southampton may well want a teansfer to be completed now  but Everton is looking like a terrible option. My Palace supporting mates would love to have him. That deal i could understand

Edited 24 August, 2023 by jimmer42

[derry]

The flaw in a new double your money contract. If we are fortunate enough to get promoted this season we then have another two years of an expensive contract for a player who doesn't score enough goals in the Premier League and will need more strikers.

[Sheaf Saint]

A couple of choice snippets from the GOT forum...

Quote

Questions should be asked about our scouting department if this is the best they can come up with.

Quote

I don’t think I've ever been less excited by a prospective signing.

 

[Whitey Grandad]

12 hours ago, RedArmy said:

I fail to see how it’ll be harder to offload him after a (potential) 20+ goal season in the Championship than it is after only scoring 5 goals in the Prem. 

Everton could well go down and still see the value in pursuing him next summer to score the goals to get them back up.  
 

Let’s not forget without his goals we would currently have 2 points. 

Would we have been playing with only ten men?

[Toadhall Saint]

4 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

A couple of choice snippets from the GOT forum...

 

Not sure they realise the state their club is in. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Not sure they realise the state their club is in. 

Love is blind.

[Saint_clark]

2 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

But goals breed confidence with strikers like that. Seen it loads of times over the years where a striker on a barren run, looking devoid of all confidence, gets a fortunate goal which has jump-started a run of good form. Yeah he will still have off days, as all strikers do, but the fact he has already got 3 goals to his name already this season will do wonders for his mindset.

Also, both his penalties were well taken so you can't just discount them as 'fortunate'. That's disingenuous to say the least.

If he can get back to the level he was playing at in his 28 goal season at Blackburn, which is entirely possible, then he will be a huge asset to us this season.

True and that may well be the case. All I'm saying is so far he hasn't looked particularly confident. 

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

This seems like a crazy deal to me. The press (if they're to be believed) are reporting that we want £5m up front. Why on early would we take £5m for a proven striker at this level? Who can we replace him with for £5m??? Surely we'd be better telling him he has to stay and getting some value out of him. I'd rather let him go for free when his contract expires. His potential to score goals in the Championship must be worth more than £15m with only £5m up front?

Ok, the rest would be due in installments but if it's anything like the James Beattie deal, we'll never see that money. 

 

 

[The Kraken]

5 minutes ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

This seems like a crazy deal to me. The press (if they're to be believed) are reporting that we want £5m up front. Why on early would we take £5m for a proven striker at this level? Who can we replace him with for £5m??? Surely we'd be better telling him he has to stay and getting some value out of him. I'd rather let him go for free when his contract expires. His potential to score goals in the Championship must be worth more than £15m with only £5m up front?

Ok, the rest would be due in installments but if it's anything like the James Beattie deal, we'll never see that money. 

Where are the press reporting this? The only rumours I’ve seen are that Saints turned down Everton’s bid because it was only £t5M up front and the rest over the duration of the contract.

[OldNick]

2 hours ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

like the James Beattie deal, we'll never see that money. 

 

 

Missed that, what happened?

[Disco Stu]

Another we've been linked to in the past...

Oops wrong thread (too late)

Edited 24 August, 2023 by Disco Stu

[Midfield_General]

Ah yes, Brandon Williams.

Surely up there for the title of player linked with us the most times whilst never actually signing. 

Who would the other competitors for that crown be? 

[Saint Garrett]

17 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Another we've been linked to in the past...

 

From Norwich to Ipswich….sure he’ll get a good reception this season. 

Rubbish player, and complete cock by the sounds of it 

[Winnersaint]

33 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

From Norwich to Ipswich….sure he’ll get a good reception this season. 

Rubbish player, and complete cock by the sounds of it 

Especially in the Old Farm games this season.

[Saint Matty 76]

Fingers crossed, but he'd be mad to do anything before September 1st anyway.