Che Adams

[Gloucester Saint]

Right now, the move is a moot point unless Everton (allegedly) get serious about the amount up front. The rumoured £7m up front is a joke for a current PL club, even Luton or Burnley could do better than that. If I was Wilcox, I’d want most of it upfront as they are clearly in some serious financial/FFP trouble and could go pop with trying to fund that new stadium. I wouldn’t be surprised if more substantial bidders such as Bournemouth come back to the table or Forest if Everton can’t go on the potty, especially if they pick up an injury at the weekend. 

Edited 23 August, 2023 by Gloucester Saint

[Channons Windmill]

Don’t forget that Everton have their FFP hearing from 25th October - apparently if they lose we that then Saints (plus Leeds, Leicester and Burnley) will be taking legal action against them. I can’t see, under those circumstances, that there would any situation where we would cut Everton a deal especially as there is the very real possibility they could go into administration…

[St. Neil]

I don't think they even want to pay £7m up front, it's more like £5m and they can't do that until they get some cash in from selling Demarai Gray.

[saintant]

About time we gave Everton an ultimatum rather than all this prevaricating. Have you got the money we want up front? If yes let's do a deal. If not tell them we won't do a deal with them and their offer is rejected and we won't consider another offer from them.

[Wurzel]

2 hours ago, egg said:

Indeed. Playing for Everton in the PL is a step up on any assessment, and he'd be nuts not to take the extra dollars they'll be paying him. All hypothetical, but if he's on £50k down here (I suspect it'll be less), but will be on £100k up there (I suspect it'll be more) that's the thick end of £2.5m over just the the next year. The expectation that he turns that down, and the chance to play PL football, to please Harry from Harefield is bewildering. 

He could play one more year for us at the end of which he'll either be a PL player again and able to negotiate a new contract with us ; or, irrespective of whether we go up or not can walk away as a free agent, join any PL club that wants him on PL wages and take something like £5m as a signing on fee as thet won't need to pay for him.

If Everton are the only club interested I'd definitely stay put, they are looking as one of the favourites for relegation (again) and there is a strong chance they won't even be paying him if they go into admin.

I was also going to add wait one more year, have a great Euros and his value could be way higher than now...but then I remembered who he plays for 🤣

[Miltonaggro]

Looks like poor Everton can’t afford Che Adams, so unsure how this one pans out. Would be idiotic for saints to allow a loan. Maybe they could sell their grade 2 listed dugouts to the British Museum and raise an extra £250. 

[CSA96]

Scratch that potential replacement off...

 

[SambaMaverick]

Looks like a disgracefully structured deal weighted towards Villa anyway, not sure Wilcox would have had the stomach to allow that

[RedArmy]

22 hours ago, Jimmy_D said:

The real risk the club might be worried about is keeping Che, missing out on promotion (for whatever reason, injuries to players being one reason that could happen), and then being stuck with no Che, no Che money, and another season in the Championship, with the unknown of whether any replacement strikers would be available at the right price.

Then tell him he’s staying until January and if he’s banging in goals and we’re sitting pretty near the top of the table then he’ll be offered a generous new deal but if we’re not looking likely to be promoted then he can go for £5m to whoever wants him. 
 

It’s a gamble worth taking, we’ll struggle to replace his goals at this level for £15m. 

[Turkish]

4 hours ago, egg said:

Indeed. Playing for Everton in the PL is a step up on any assessment, and he'd be nuts not to take the extra dollars they'll be paying him. All hypothetical, but if he's on £50k down here (I suspect it'll be less), but will be on £100k up there (I suspect it'll be more) that's the thick end of £2.5m over just the the next year. The expectation that he turns that down, and the chance to play PL football, to please Harry from Harefield is bewildering. 

I’m always amused by the notion that players should stay at clubs because they’ll be popular in that city if they do. Like you say, why would someone with no affiliation to the city turn down the chance to earn millions more because people will think they’re a good bloke, especially when the same people will Be demanding they get moved on once they’re not able to do the job anymore 

[AlexLaw76]

I wish we were more loyal to Mo El, or Tall Paul, or Wesley Hoedt

[Fabrice29]

22 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

Then tell him he’s staying until January and if he’s banging in goals and we’re sitting pretty near the top of the table then he’ll be offered a generous new deal but if we’re not looking likely to be promoted then he can go for £5m to whoever wants him. 
 

It’s a gamble worth taking, we’ll struggle to replace his goals at this level for £15m. 

Even if we struggle to replace his goals at this level (doubtful based on some utter turd players have scored 20 plus goals at this level recently and also doubtful because Che has an incredible ability to go through very big form swings and he’s no guarantee of goals over a season)… are you not bored of watching him start up front for us yet? We certainly shouldn’t be offering new deals to a player who has consistently underwhelmed at the level we aspire to be at. Have some joy in your life my friend, embrace a new striker, it might be fun.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 hours ago, Miltonaggro said:

Maybe they could sell their grade 2 listed dugouts to the British Museum and raise an extra £250. 

They would get stolen from the British Museum, which would be a tragic loss to the nation. 🙂

 

[RedArmy]

25 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Even if we struggle to replace his goals at this level (doubtful based on some utter turd players have scored 20 plus goals at this level recently and also doubtful because Che has an incredible ability to go through very big form swings and he’s no guarantee of goals over a season)… are you not bored of watching him start up front for us yet? We certainly shouldn’t be offering new deals to a player who has consistently underwhelmed at the level we aspire to be at. Have some joy in your life my friend, embrace a new striker, it might be fun.

Offering him a new deal doesn’t mean we have to keep him long term. It does however guarantee us a bit more money if/when he goes next season or the season after. 
 

I don’t really give a shit who the player is that’s scoring the goals as long as they’re being scored and I’m not bored of watching a striker who has scored 3 goals already and only started 1 game. 

Whether he’s good enough for a season in the premier league is irrelevant at this point, we aren’t there yet but his goals could get us there. 
 

[Chez]

5 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

The rumoured £7m up front is a joke for a current PL club, even Luton or Burnley could do better than that.

Is it a joke?

I honestly thought that in days gone by a lot of transfers between English clubs was pay half up front and the remaining half within the next 12 months. In contrast, transfers between foreign clubs I thought the fee was spread across the length of the contract - another reason why buying foreigners was so attractive. I might be wrong on both scores, and things no doubt have moved on a lot since then for both types of transfer, but for a £15m transfer, is half up front really out of the ordinary? 

Or have I misunderstood, and the joke remark was more about a Prem side should be expected to have the funds to pay it all up front?

[Eric The Red]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

Is it a joke?

I honestly thought that in days gone by a lot of transfers between English clubs was pay half up front and the remaining half within the next 12 months. In contrast, transfers between foreign clubs I thought the fee was spread across the length of the contract - another reason why buying foreigners was so attractive. I might be wrong on both scores, and things no doubt have moved on a lot since then for both types of transfer, but for a £15m transfer, is half up front really out of the ordinary? 

Or have I misunderstood, and the joke remark was more about a Prem side should be expected to have the funds to pay it all up front?

As far as I understand the rumours, it's that they're not offering as much as £7m up front, i.e. definitely under half the supposed £15m. I seriously wonder whether the £15m includes various add-ons which, given how hopeless Everton have looked so far this season, would never be due.

[derry]

It seems to me that the impecunious Everton are in for a host of players from various clubs. If there is only truth in half of them they are stretching their reported resources to the limit. It looks like trying to pay poundshop prices on the never never. I would have thought Liverpool's experience with their arrogant bidding for Lavia would have told them Saints aren't a pushover. Maybe we're only being patient possibly to get a good deal on Holgate.

[iansums]

24 minutes ago, Eric The Red said:

As far as I understand the rumours, it's that they're not offering as much as £7m up front, i.e. definitely under half the supposed £15m. I seriously wonder whether the £15m includes various add-ons which, given how hopeless Everton have looked so far this season, would never be due.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Southampton only want £5m up front, and it&#39;s still not done. <br><br>When does the pain end? <a href="https://t.co/RNZHOZada4">https://t.co/RNZHOZada4</a></p>&mdash; Matt (@TacticallyMatt) <a href="https://twitter.com/TacticallyMatt/status/1694344640462209277?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 23, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[iansums]

Just now, iansums said:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Southampton only want £5m up front, and it&#39;s still not done. <br><br>When does the pain end? <a href="https://t.co/RNZHOZada4">https://t.co/RNZHOZada4</a></p>&mdash; Matt (@TacticallyMatt) <a href="https://twitter.com/TacticallyMatt/status/1694344640462209277?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 23, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Well I messed that up!

[Dark Munster]

6 hours ago, egg said:

Indeed. Playing for Everton in the PL is a step up on any assessment, and he'd be nuts not to take the extra dollars they'll be paying him. All hypothetical, but if he's on £50k down here (I suspect it'll be less), but will be on £100k up there (I suspect it'll be more) that's the thick end of £2.5m over just the the next year. The expectation that he turns that down, and the chance to play PL football, to please Harry from Harefield is bewildering. 

He’s under contract. He can’t just walk out for a better pay day. Next year he can. 

[FarehamSaintJames]

3 hours ago, CSA96 said:

Scratch that potential replacement off...

 

Rhian Brewster MKII.

[egg]

37 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

He’s under contract. He can’t just walk out for a better pay day. Next year he can. 

I haven't said that can just walk out!

However, the club won't let him just walk out on a free next year. They'll sell him, we'll get a fee, he'll get a pay rise, and get to lose PL matches most weeks. 

Frankly, discussion around him is a bit tedious. We've got some people who see the obvious as per the above, and others who can't see the reality and think that he should stay because they've now decided he's brilliant. 

[Fabrice29]

2 hours ago, RedArmy said:

Offering him a new deal doesn’t mean we have to keep him long term. It does however guarantee us a bit more money if/when he goes next season or the season after. 
 

I don’t really give a shit who the player is that’s scoring the goals as long as they’re being scored and I’m not bored of watching a striker who has scored 3 goals already and only started 1 game. 

Whether he’s good enough for a season in the premier league is irrelevant at this point, we aren’t there yet but his goals could get us there. 
 

It makes it a hell of a lot harder to offload him when you inevitably concluded he’s not good enough though. We’re being offered plus 10 million for someone we don’t think is good enough for the level we aspire to be at. 

And I’m not going to get into Che bashing because I like him generally but didn’t he score 3 goals in a couple of starts this time last season as well? He ended up on 5 PL goals. He’s consistently gone through massive form swings and that’s what I’m personally bored of. The one good thing about the relegation is the reset we’ve had. Off the pitch we’ve made positive, exciting changes and I don’t see why we can’t do that on the pitch as well. I personally see Che as a symbol of our issues for a while now, amongst others, and I don’t see why we need to keep people around who consistently underwhelm for us when presented with a chance to cash out and have a possibly exciting new look on the pitch. 

[PapaWaiToGO]

In a way it's good to see the prudence of board accepting that no championship club should be letting 15m go for free - Blackburn did it with Bereton-Diaz and it got them nowhere. 

 

Having said that, I do hope Wilcox has a cut off point that selling Che will have too much impact on our promotion chances. 15m isn't worth much to us if it's 1st September the next day. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I haven't said that can just walk out!

However, the club won't let him just walk out on a free next year. They'll sell him, we'll get a fee, he'll get a pay rise, and get to lose PL matches most weeks. 

Frankly, discussion around him is a bit tedious. We've got some people who see the obvious as per the above, and others who can't see the reality and think that he should stay because they've now decided he's brilliant. 

I think he should stay but I also can see he's very likely to be sold. 

[saintant]

58 minutes ago, PapaWaiToGO said:

In a way it's good to see the prudence of board accepting that no championship club should be letting 15m go for free - Blackburn did it with Bereton-Diaz and it got them nowhere. 

 

Having said that, I do hope Wilcox has a cut off point that selling Che will have too much impact on our promotion chances. 15m isn't worth much to us if it's 1st September the next day. 

I would tell Che and anyone interested in signing him that if there's no deal by the end of this week he's staying here until at least January.

[derry]

He was training at Staplewood today, together with Downes and Sullemana preparing for QPR.

[PapaWaiToGO]

3 minutes ago, derry said:

He was training at Staplewood today, together with Downes and Sullemana preparing for QPR.

Wouldn't read too much into that. Che probably knows his bread is buttered no matter what happens.

[Verbal]

29 minutes ago, PapaWaiToGO said:

Wouldn't read too much into that. Che probably knows his bread is buttered no matter what happens.

You mean he's toast? Or he couldn't give a toffee? I'm confused by new expressions.

[Dman]

Surely at this point we need to say to him, if you're not gone by the end of this week, you're not leaving at all. We're shooting ourselfs in the foot here as its clearly going to drag on to the wire leaving us no time to replace. 

We either draw a line now or we twist and spend £20m on his replacement now (Piroe). Worse case, we rotate the 2 of them.. Not a bad thought..

[derry]

19 minutes ago, Dman said:

Surely at this point we need to say to him, if you're not gone by the end of this week, you're not leaving at all. We're shooting ourselfs in the foot here as its clearly going to drag on to the wire leaving us no time to replace. 

We either draw a line now or we twist and spend £20m on his replacement now (Piroe). Worse case, we rotate the 2 of them.. Not a bad thought..

Personally I favour bringing in a strker. Che has historically gone on long goal droughts so if he does stay a reliable alternative is also necessary.

[PapaWaiToGO]

2 hours ago, Verbal said:

You mean he's toast? Or he couldn't give a toffee? I'm confused by new expressions.

Which is ironic given your user name

[RedArmy]

5 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

It makes it a hell of a lot harder to offload him when you inevitably concluded he’s not good enough though. We’re being offered plus 10 million for someone we don’t think is good enough for the level we aspire to be at. 

And I’m not going to get into Che bashing because I like him generally but didn’t he score 3 goals in a couple of starts this time last season as well? He ended up on 5 PL goals. He’s consistently gone through massive form swings and that’s what I’m personally bored of. The one good thing about the relegation is the reset we’ve had. Off the pitch we’ve made positive, exciting changes and I don’t see why we can’t do that on the pitch as well. I personally see Che as a symbol of our issues for a while now, amongst others, and I don’t see why we need to keep people around who consistently underwhelm for us when presented with a chance to cash out and have a possibly exciting new look on the pitch. 

I fail to see how it’ll be harder to offload him after a (potential) 20+ goal season in the Championship than it is after only scoring 5 goals in the Prem. 

Everton could well go down and still see the value in pursuing him next summer to score the goals to get them back up.  
 

Let’s not forget without his goals we would currently have 2 points. 

[Toadhall Saint]

12 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

I fail to see how it’ll be harder to offload him after a (potential) 20+ goal season in the Championship than it is after only scoring 5 goals in the Prem. 

Everton could well go down and still see the value in pursuing him next summer to score the goals to get them back up.  
 

Let’s not forget without his goals we would currently have 2 points. 

Let’s not forget that with his goals we were relegated 

[Fabrice29]

16 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

I fail to see how it’ll be harder to offload him after a (potential) 20+ goal season in the Championship than it is after only scoring 5 goals in the Prem. 

Everton could well go down and still see the value in pursuing him next summer to score the goals to get them back up.  
 

Let’s not forget without his goals we would currently have 2 points. 

You fail to see how a striker with a new contract and a few years left is worth more than one with less than a year left? 

This is our last possible chance to get some money for someone who has been underwhelming. He's not a superstar we can't play without and this isn't a league that only a select few players can score in. Kieffer Moore and Andreas Weimann have scored 20 plus goals in this league in the last few years. Rake in the money and back yourself to find someone else, is the only sensible option for those running the club.

[FarehamSaintJames]

Will be a big own goal for the club if he’s sold. Simple as.

[Fabrice29]

9 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

Will be a big own goal for the club if he’s sold. Simple as.

Take a step back and ask yourself how you've got to a stage were you genuinely believe this please. You've watched him over the last few years just like we all have.

[beatlesaint]

14 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

Will be a big own goal for the club if he’s sold. Simple as.

Bloody hell there’s some selective memory going on there. 
 

Now had you said that when the club sold Ings to Villa you would have had a point cos we’ve never recovered from that.

Edited 23 August, 2023 by beatlesaint

[FarehamSaintJames]

I think we can all agree he’s made a good start to the season, yes?
And I think we can all agree that he has clearly done it at this level previously.

Right now he is our best striker, and again we all know it.

He could quite simply score 25+ goals this season and propel us back up. 
I’m not for one second saying he could hack it in the Premier League again, but let’s face it he’s had three different managers, three styles of football and is clearly a confidence player.
I’m not denying he’s been shit at times because he clearly has been, but it comes down to confidence for him - similar to Redmond when he was here.

Score 25 goals and his confidence I’ll be sky high and that benefits everyone.

He’s obviously more a senior player at the club now but I’d argue he is more valuable to keep for his final year, bang in a load of goals, potential of promotion, and potentially a spring board for whatever he chooses next season whether it be stay or go.

Replacing him now after the start he’s made is just a little idiotic unless you’re getting someone a lot better to replace him, which I don’t see the club doing with a week left of the window, plus potentially bedding in a new player etc.

Hope this helps 😊

Edited 23 August, 2023 by FarehamSaintJames

[Saint_clark]

12 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Take a step back and ask yourself how you've got to a stage were you genuinely believe this please. You've watched him over the last few years just like we all have.

We're a league lower now. We're in a league in which Jos Hooiveld and Danny Fox were top defenders. 

Che Adams will get us goals this season. If he fires us to promotion and then leaves on a free, absolutely brilliant. I have more faith in him than anybody else we are going to realistically get in to replace him. 

[RedArmy]

41 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Let’s not forget that with his goals we were relegated 

We’re not in that league any more. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

4 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I have more faith in him than anybody else we are going to realistically get in to replace him. 

That's probably what it comes down to.

If we were still in the Premier League, and the 2 sides couldn't agree a new contract, then I'd have said it made sense to use the money we get to invest in someone to be at least as good on a longer contract.

In this division, it still makes sense to do that. Even with Adams being likely to get more goals.

Except, SR's recruitment was appalling last window, and they utterly failed to get more than Mara in the window before that.

Based on that, then Adams' increased goals tally makes him more valuable to us. With SR's track record in this department, it could make the difference between going up or not.

If a club meets SR's valuation, they had better be as sure as possible that the replacement really will be able to make as much difference.

It is a little tough having faith that it will be done right. Adams being replaced poorly will cost us. Adams being replaced well is the best scenario for all parties.

[SaintBobby]

I think I tried to make this point on the "stop the sales" thread. Not very well, but can someone please try and explain to me what the variables are here and what's "out of our hands"?

It seems to me there are three options. Not two.

1. We say "you're staying. No one has matched our valuation, so you are serving out the last year of your contract here at £40K a week. At the end of the season, you are a free agent"

2. Someone matches our valuation, whatever it is. Most likely Everton. Most likely about £15m. We can argue about what that valuation should be, but at some point the club sells. If some Saudi club offers £200m for him, do you think  we should  say "no"? (obvs, not going to happen, just an illustration).

But why can't we do....

3. We say "we'd like you to stay. We will bump your pay from (say)  £40K to £60k per week, with a big promotion bonus on a new three year contract. But we will include a release clause meaning that you can go to any other club next June if a bid of (say) £10m is received."

Why are we locked into 1 or 2? I'm not saying Adams or his agent jumps at option 3. But it should be on the table. And surely, to him, is more attractive than option 1?

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 August, 2023 by SaintBobby

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, SaintBobby said:

I think I tried to make this point on the "stop the sales" thread. Not very well, but can someone please try and explain to me what the variables are here and what's "out of our hands"?

It seems to me there are three options. Not two.

1. We say "you're staying. No one has matched our valuation, so you are serving out the last year of your contract here at £40K a week. At the end of the season, you are a free agent"

2. Someone matches our valuation, whatever it is. Most likely Everton. Most likely about £15m. We can argue about what that valuation should be, but at some point the club sells. If some Saudi club offers £200m for him, do you think  e should "no"? (obvs, not going to happen, just an illustration).

But why can't we do....

3. We say "we'd like you to stay. We will bump your pay from (say)  £40K to £60k per week, with a big promotion bonus on a new three year contract. But we will include a release clause meaning that you can go to any other club next June is a bid of (say) £10m is received."

Why are we locked into 1 or 2? I'm not saying Adams or his agent jumps at option 3. But it should be on the table. And surely, to him, is more attractive than option 1?

 

 

 

 

No guarantee a club comes in for Adams at all next summer to be fair, even at £10million. There is no circumstance in which signing a contract is beneficial to him. 

[SaintBobby]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

No guarantee a club comes in for Adams at all next summer to be fair, even at £10million. There is no circumstance in which signing a contract is beneficial to him. 

Well, he earns an extra £20K a week for 3 years then.

There aren't any "guarantees". Maybe he sees out hsi contract here...but picks up a bad injury and can't play football at a high level again.

To say "there are no circumstances in which signing a contract is beneficial to him" is surely wrong. If we offer him £100K a week for life, I bet he'd sign!

It's all on a spectrum, I think. Not black or white.

[Fabrice29]

‘at this level Che will score goals but we won’t find anyone else’ bloody hell how much has our bad recruitment dragged the hope down of the fans  here 😂 If this level is so bad that even he can score then even us can recruit someone else to replace him surely. 

I’m not even raising the fact that at this level Che has only scored double figures once either. 

4 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

3. We say "we'd like you to stay. We will bump your pay from (say)  £40K to £60k per week, with a big promotion bonus on a new three year contract. But we will include a release clause meaning that you can go to any other club next June is a bid of (say) £10m is received."

Why are we locked into 1 or 2? I'm not saying Adams or his agent jumps at option 3. But it should be on the table. And surely, to him, is more attractive than option 1?

 

 

 

 

Because you’re giving him extra money for no benefit to us. Extra years on his deal should mean extra value for any transfer. If you’re selling him at 10m anyway then do it now, before you pay him more money. 

[Golactico]

3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

No guarantee a club comes in for Adams at all next summer to be fair, even at £10million. There is no circumstance in which signing a contract is beneficial to him. 

It's very beneficial for him if he signs a new 3 year deal and then gets an ACL injury in training the next day.

[SaintBobby]

3 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

‘at this level Che will score goals but we won’t find anyone else’ bloody hell how much has our bad recruitment dragged the hope down of the fans  here 😂 If this level is so bad that even he can score then even us can recruit someone else to replace him surely. 

I’m not even raising the fact that at this level Che has only scored double figures once either. 

Because you’re giving him extra money for no benefit to us. Extra years on his deal should mean extra value for any transfer. If you’re selling him at 10m anyway then do it now, before you pay him more money. 

The value to us is he plays this season for Saints rather than for another club.

I can't work out why - in principle - it's much different to any valued employee of any company getting a pay rise.

 

Edited 23 August, 2023 by SaintBobby

[Fabrice29]

27 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

We’re not in that league any more. 

Also, on this point, and it’ll be my last because it’s even more dull discussing it, have some self respect ffs. You’ve watched this guy and other players in this squad for years now consistently not give you value for money. Don’t reward them now just because the level they’ve dragged us down to is lower. We shouldn’t be entertaining any of them tbh, let alone making one captain and another the key striker to our success. Like I said, have some self respect and start demanding better, not the same at a lower level. 

[Fabrice29]

2 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

The value to us is he plays this season for Saints rather than for another club.

I can't work out why - in principle - it's much different to any valued employee of any company getting a pay rise.

 

We’ve just got relegated mate. A whole bunch of employees lost their job and you’re suggesting one on the pitch gets a pay rise.