Che Adams

[LiberalCommunist]

15 hours ago, TWar said:

The american one or the UK one, as it greatly effects how much sympathy this elicits?

There's a subtle Slough connection. Have you heard Broja talk, check it out. 

[Totton Saint]

5 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Great ground, loved to have seen it in the 70's. I was there in the 90's and saw Celtic beat Rangers 5-1, that was a wild night.

I bet it was.

As I was leaving the ground with my pals from the site where we were constructing the Monklands Motorway, now part of the M8 around Glasgow, there was as crowd surge which lifted me off my feet. I came back to earth about 20 yards away minus my shoes. Inside the ground during the game  it was like being in  Roman arena. 

[trousers]

7 hours ago, Dman said:

On 15/11/2021 at 23:29, OttawaSaint said:

Anyone notice that Glasgow stopped posting on here the moment Che joined us?

Coincidence, I think not...

 

I’m not Glasgow / heisenberg / kenya, if that’s what you’re getting at

You seem to know a lot of history about a poster and his previous incarnations for a relatively new member of the forum... #justsaying 

[Totton Saint]

5 hours ago, skintsaint said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bO0xrI-iEk

 

Thanks Skintsaint- you did well to dig that clip out!

[verlaine1979]

11 hours ago, TWar said:

Broja most distinctly does not have everything. He does a few things well, finishing, and first touch primarily. But hasn't shown nearly enough in build up, support play, chance creation, strength, or dribbling to be on Che's level.

Broja has started a grand total of two games for us and scored in both. He's bigger, faster, better in the air, better first touch and a better finisher. Given enough games I'd be willing to bet he's at least as creative, just because what are the chances he's got all that in his locker but is less able to create than a player with far fewer technical gifts?

As for dribbling, next time Che streaks half the length of the pitch leaving defenders puffing behind him, do call and let me know. 

Edited 17 November, 2021 by verlaine1979

[TWar]

11 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Broja has started a grand total of two games for us and scored in both. He's bigger, faster, better in the air, better first touch and a better finisher. Given enough games I'd be willing to bet he's at least as creative, just because what are the chances he's got all that in his locker but is less able to create than a player with far fewer technical gifts?

As for dribbling, next time Che streaks half the length of the pitch leaving defenders puffing behind him, do call and let me know. 

He's not bigger, faster or better in the air than Che, nor has he got a better first touch? Che is well ahead in all those metrics. He's taller but he has no where near the muscle of Che so he doesn't win as much in the air. Che wins 32% of aerial duels to Broja's 23%.

 Che ran half the pitch leaving two defenders behind him against Villa, twice, both times he broke out of pressure and got us moving forward. Che has a 37% dribble success rate to Broja's 28%. I think some of the rating of Broja is a case of him making a very good first impression against a tired West Ham. Since then, however, he hasn't really been any better than Che/Armstrong and that's why they started against Villa.

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

He's not bigger, faster or better in the air than Che, nor has he got a better first touch? Che is well ahead in all those metrics. He's taller but he has no where near the muscle of Che so he doesn't win as much in the air. Che wins 32% of aerial duels to Broja's 23%.

 Che ran half the pitch leaving two defenders behind him against Villa, twice, both times he broke out of pressure and got us moving forward. Che has a 37% dribble success rate to Broja's 28%. I think some of the rating of Broja is a case of him making a very good first impression against a tired West Ham. Since then, however, he hasn't really been any better than Che/Armstrong and that's why they started against Villa.

It's all very well providing stats for aerial duels won, but that doesn't reflect what I've seen with my own eyes.

Che has many qualities but he has never, ever looked a threat from corners. Whereas in only a couple of starts, Broja has shown himself to be far more dangerous in that regard.

[Billy the Kidd]

8 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

It's all very well providing stats for aerial duels won, but that doesn't reflect what I've seen with my own eyes.

Che has many qualities but he has never, ever looked a threat from corners. Whereas in only a couple of starts, Broja has shown himself to be far more dangerous in that regard.

Are you specifically referring to headed goal threats? In which case, yes Broja appears more of a threat.

But that isnt what you initially said, you said better in the air, which doesnt just consider headed shots.

Also, what about the dribble success, that is very much in favour of Che, who I think helps us gain possession further in the attacking sense of the pitch, and therefore further away from our goal. I think this is something Broja could improve on, and he likely will, let's not forget he is pretty young still.

[TWar]

34 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

It's all very well providing stats for aerial duels won, but that doesn't reflect what I've seen with my own eyes.

Che has many qualities but he has never, ever looked a threat from corners. Whereas in only a couple of starts, Broja has shown himself to be far more dangerous in that regard.

Scoring goals from headers is a useful skill (not one either have proved yet imo) but that's not 100% of strength in the air. If there is a ball dropping from height onto Che and a CB then I rate Che a lot more than I rate Broja to win that ball. This gives us an outball when under pressure, creates multiple chances, and unsettles defenders creating room for his strike partner. Che's ability to make chances by winning second balls/challenges is really valuable.

[Sheaf Saint]

21 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Are you specifically referring to headed goal threats? In which case, yes Broja appears more of a threat.

But that isnt what you initially said, you said better in the air, which doesnt just consider headed shots.

Also, what about the dribble success, that is very much in favour of Che, who I think helps us gain possession further in the attacking sense of the pitch, and therefore further away from our goal. I think this is something Broja could improve on, and he likely will, let's not forget he is pretty young still.

Ok yeah I guess there is a distinction to be made between being good in the air and providing a headed goal threat.

I'm not disagreeing about the dribbling though. A couple of times in the second half against Villa, Che showed some lovely skill to bring the ball out of our half and get us on the front foot again. Not seen anything like that from Broja yet, but that's not to say he isn't capable. 

FWIW, I really like Che and I appreciate what he brings to the team. I'm pretty confident that, in time, Broja will prove he is a much better finisher but there's more to it than that. I'm just glad we have these kind of selection headaches really. It makes a nice change.

[LiberalCommunist]

Che waited patiently last year. Quietly worked hard and improved as he waited for his chance. And now Ings has gone he is Ralph's first pick up front. Once the easy chances start going in, then the debate will end. But I'm just happy we have capable players pushing the likes of Che on. It bodes well going forward. 

[Singapore Saint]

14 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Broja has started a grand total of two games for us and scored in both. He's bigger, faster, better in the air, better first touch and a better finisher. Given enough games I'd be willing to bet he's at least as creative, just because what are the chances he's got all that in his locker but is less able to create than a player with far fewer technical gifts?

As for dribbling, next time Che streaks half the length of the pitch leaving defenders puffing behind him, do call and let me know. 

Two games is statistically insignificant, you can't and shouldn't build a case on just two games.

[LiberalCommunist]

It benefits us more playing Che & Adam. Especially when we grind some pts and take the pressure off. 

If Broja muscles his way in, and forces those boys to lose big game time it sets up a few problems. 

Are they both good enough, will we give them a chance next season.  Or are we sent looking for replacements.

Broja's price will rise ruling us out of a move for him.  (perhaps he's already unobtainable?)

Stability. Continuity. Financial viability. We've seen how difficult it is to negotiate with even the midtable clubs in the Championship. We really don't want to be starting the search again this summer. So I'm all in on backing the Che & Adam success story. (I really like Broja, and I know he has a part to play, just in case that didn't come across)

 

[verlaine1979]

6 hours ago, TWar said:

He's not bigger, faster or better in the air than Che, nor has he got a better first touch? Che is well ahead in all those metrics. He's taller but he has no where near the muscle of Che so he doesn't win as much in the air. Che wins 32% of aerial duels to Broja's 23%.

 Che ran half the pitch leaving two defenders behind him against Villa, twice, both times he broke out of pressure and got us moving forward. Che has a 37% dribble success rate to Broja's 28%. I think some of the rating of Broja is a case of him making a very good first impression against a tired West Ham. Since then, however, he hasn't really been any better than Che/Armstrong and that's why they started against Villa.

I don't like dumping on stats because with the correct context set around them, they can be illuminating. However, your confidence in Che's dribbling vs Broja, for example, is based on Broja having attempted 7 and completed 2 and Che attempting 8 and completing 3. This is hardly a significant sample. For example, the two instances you mention against Villa were impressive, but to me they stood out for the simple fact that I'd literally never seen Che carry the ball that far before.

Aerial duels have a bit more data, but again, without context it's hard to compare. Broja played both starts as a lone striker, whereas Che spends a lot more time in the middle of the park. How many of Che's headers were won against midfielders rather than CBs? I have no idea - and the stats certainly don't shed any light on the question.

So far I've watched Broja threaten from corners, finish confidently, and show frightening pace and strength running with the ball at his feet. That's where my hunch that he's going to prove a much better player than Che comes from. In time the stats might prove me wrong, but for now they don't have a great deal to say on the matter.

Edited 18 November, 2021 by verlaine1979

[TWar]

25 minutes ago, verlaine1979 said:

I don't like dumping on stats because with the correct context set around them, they can be illuminating. However, your confidence in Che's dribbling vs Broja, for example, is based on Broja having attempted 7 and completed 2 and Che attempting 8 and completing 3. This is hardly a significant sample. For example, the two instances you mention against Villa were impressive, but to me they stood out for the simple fact that I'd literally never seen Che carry the ball that far before.

Aerial duels have a bit more data, but again, without context it's hard to compare. Broja played both starts as a lone striker, whereas Che spends a lot more time in the middle of the park. How many of Che's headers were won against midfielders rather than CBs? I have no idea - and the stats certainly don't shed any light on the question.

So far I've watched Broja threaten from corners, finish confidently, and show frightening pace and strength running with the ball at his feet. That's where my hunch that he's going to prove a much better player than Che comes from. In time the stats might prove me wrong, but for now they don't have a great deal to say on the matter.

These are fair points, fair enough. The sample sizes are small admittedly. The stats are interesting but it's worth see how they develop as the season runs on.

I personally think from my observations Che is stronger and better in the air, but as you rightly point out, this can't be accurately statistically proven until we have more data. Will be an interesting topic to revisit at the end of the season when I put together that stat thing I normally do.

[verlaine1979]

5 hours ago, Singapore Saint said:

Two games is statistically insignificant, you can't and shouldn't build a case on just two games.

This is more or less my point. At this stage in Broja's career with us, we only have first impressions and instincts to go on. And on the basis of two very well taken goals, some dangerous involvement at corners and a couple of blitzing runs, I judge him as having made a much more promising start than many I've seen at Saints over the years. 

[The Cat]

Does he even have a song yet? Was a bit weird yesterday when he scored and then no one sang his name.

On another note it's a pity Shane Long isn't playing now because Wet Leg have given us a completely open goal for a new song dedicated him.

https://youtu.be/Zd9jeJk2UHQ

[Uncle Albert]

On 21/11/2021 at 14:07, The Cat said:

Does he even have a song yet? Was a bit weird yesterday when he scored and then no one sang his name.

On another note it's a pity Shane Long isn't playing now because Wet Leg have given us a completely open goal for a new song dedicated him.

https://youtu.be/Zd9jeJk2UHQ

Made me chuckle when I saw that bands name on Jools Holland the other night.

[The Cat]

48 minutes ago, Uncle Albert said:

Made me chuckle when I saw that bands name on Jools Holland the other night.

They are everywhere at the moment and will probably end up being massive. They come from IOW so most important thing we need to find out is if they are Saints or Pompey.

[cloggy saint]

9 minutes ago, The Cat said:

They are everywhere at the moment and will probably end up being massive. They come from IOW so most important thing we need to find out is if they are Saints or Pompey.

They're probably Man utd or Liverpool.

[Uncle Albert]

16 minutes ago, The Cat said:

They are everywhere at the moment and will probably end up being massive. They come from IOW so most important thing we need to find out is if they are Saints or Pompey.

Not a massive fan but hey that's just me

[Sheaf Saint]

25 minutes ago, Uncle Albert said:

Not a massive fan but hey that's just me

It's not just you 😉

[The Cat]

I'm not a massive fan either.

Have seen them live and will be again while they are playing small venues for a tenner but I wouldn't buy a record or pay £35 to see them at a Guildhall size place.

Anyway, nice finish from Adams on Saturday. Hopefully he'll carry on this little goalscoring run.

[CB Fry]

Didn't realise they were from the IOW, I thought they were Swedish or something. 

 

[The Left Back]

I'm surprised we've had nothing much to say about Che for 3 months, it took me ages to find this thread.

To me he really has established himself now as the first choice striker for us.  There's so much to his game to be happy about.  Of course he could be more clinical in front of goal but that applies to all our forward players given the chances we create.  But his all round game has come on so much since he joined.  His link up play, holding up of the ball, passing, movement, fitness and his play out of possession are just really consistently good now.

The reason for bumping this thread was his headed goal on Wednesday.  In the early days his heading in front of goal seemed a weakness but the technique against Spurs was top class.  The ball was slightly behind him and he was grounded, so to generate such power and accuracy was excellent.

I'm obviously hoping we keep Broja but Adams' form gives me belief that we are not over-reliant on one forward. 

[LuckyNumber7]

Agreed, his all round game has come on in leaps and bounds, and he is scoring a decent amount of goals now. We have a good strike pairing in him and Broja.

He really needs a song though, maybe something to the tune of the Adams Family!

[AlexLaw76]

He is now a good premier League striker 

[SuperSAINT]

Thought it was a tremendous header against Spurs 

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Really like him.  Has such a good all round game.  Works well with a more direct striker like Broja or Ings who he can support/create for.

[Teddeer]

Very important member of the team for me. He has great upper body strength which he knows how to use making him difficult to shift off the ball. Super at hold up play and works like a trojan throughout 90 minutes and still looks to have a bit in the tank at the end of games. We all know his finishing could be more clinical at times but he keeps the goal tally ticking over and it was nice to see him score with a header against Spuds. What I also like is that he seems to be the type of player who learns and improves as his career progresses. Think there is a lot more to come from Che and excited to watch his development.

[VectisSaint]

On 22/11/2021 at 18:27, The Cat said:

They are everywhere at the moment and will probably end up being massive. They come from IOW so most important thing we need to find out is if they are Saints or Pompey.

We probably won't know until they are guests on Lawro Predicts. Sadly these days they are more likely to be Liverpool or Chelsea than Saints or Pompey, but even more likely they don't give a toss.

[S-Clarke]

He's a good player, but I've always thought he's more of a 'support' player than your 15-20 goal a season main man at the highest level. His attributes as a support striker are priceless for us, he provides great legs and presence up top for someone with more pace/ability to thrive from. I'm pretty excited about this Broja/Adams partnership if i'm honest, it could be epic.

That header hasn't had enough coverage though, it was terrific technique to get the power and direct on that. You won't see many better headers!

Edited 11 February, 2022 by S-Clarke

[Sheaf Saint]

I remember watching him away at Sheff Utd in his first season, and he was really unlucky to see a brilliant header well saved and a superb half-volley rattle the far post. But he led the line superbly that day.

Took him a fair while for him to really find his confidence, and more than a few on here questioned his ability to deliver at this level, but it was obvious from that performance that there was a quality player in there. It pleases me no end to see how he has grown into his role and how much he offers the team now.

Obviously they are very different players, but I'm really hoping that Arma can now follow his example and step up as he has.

[Dusic]

Had earned a contract extension IMO.

[stevy777_x]

2 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

I remember watching him away at Sheff Utd in his first season, and he was really unlucky to see a brilliant header well saved and a superb half-volley rattle the far post. But he led the line superbly that day.

Took him a fair while for him to really find his confidence, and more than a few on here questioned his ability to deliver at this level, but it was obvious from that performance that there was a quality player in there. It pleases me no end to see how he has grown into his role and how much he offers the team now.

Obviously they are very different players, but I'm really hoping that Arma can now follow his example and step up as he has.

Arma has shown nothing of note in overall play than Che showed in his first season.

[Maggie May]

Love this guy 

[Toadhall Saint]

I think RH’s comments are quite telling esp about giving players from lower leagues time and encouragement cos that’s what we do - it’ll be the same with Armstrong and IMO he will come good in time.

Edited 12 February, 2022 by Toadhall Saint

[Dusic]

1 hour ago, Maggie May said:

Love this guy 

Professional, robust, available for almost every game, improving and capable of high class moments. 

As Ralph would say, seems like a good package.

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, Toadhall Saint said:

I think RH’s comments are quite telling esp about giving players from lower leagues time and encouragement cos that’s what we do - it’ll be the same with Armstrong and IMO he will come good in time.

When Che Adams was struggling for goals at the start of his time at Saints, his build up play and all round game was good.

We aren't getting that from Adam Armstrong, who is both lacking goals and anything else in terms of impact at this level.

Armstrong has now been overtaken in the pecking order by a player 4 years younger than him who also had not played at PL level before this season. Broja at 20 years old didn't require a season to get upto speed in the PL after having only experienced 1st team football at a lower level in the Netherlands.

Edited 12 February, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[Super Carlton]

3 hours ago, Maggie May said:

Love this guy 

Me too.

[The Cat]

About time he had a decent song. He's playing his heart out and banging in some crucial goals yet we don't seem to have one for him.

Any ideas?

 

[Toadhall Saint]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

When Che Adams was struggling for goals at the start of his time at Saints, his build up play and all round game was good.

We aren't getting that from Adam Armstrong, who is both lacking goals and anything else in terms of impact at this level.

Armstrong has now been overtaken in the pecking order by a player 4 years younger than him who also had not played at PL level before this season. Broja at 20 years old didn't require a season to get upto speed in the PL after having only experienced 1st team football at a lower level in the Netherlands.

Thanks - time will tell - please bookmark this thread and bring it back up in say 18 months time.
 

Oh BTW there is a reason Broja is on the books at Chelsea and recently was given a 5 year contract. Any guesses why that is smart arse?

[LGTL]

He’s been a really good signing. 

[Sheaf Saint]

24 minutes ago, The Cat said:

About time he had a decent song. He's playing his heart out and banging in some crucial goals yet we don't seem to have one for him.

Any ideas?

 

How about something based on Elvis Costello's "She"? 

[The Cat]

He's such a perfect Che

We'll sing this song just for you

Oh, such a perfect Che

He just keeps on scoring goals

He just keeps on scoring goals

[Give it to Ron]

On 17/11/2021 at 10:01, Dman said:

I’m not Glasgow / heisenberg / kenya, if that’s what you’re getting at. So yes, a coincidence. 

I genuinely just don’t think Adams is a good striker. FWIW, I’ve not once said that he scuffs his shots. In fact, quite the opposite, he lacks finesse and just blasts his shots straight at the keeper 9/10. 

finishing / composure is generally a natural ability. Armstrong & Broja has it, Adams doesn’t. 

The Broja / Adams ‘potential’ argument is just a ridiculous one. Broja is, in my mind, already better player and clearly has more potential. Broja has everything. He’s quick, strong, tall and can finish. I see him as a bit of a poor mans Haaland in that respect. 

If you don’t think he is, ask yourself what the response would be if we went to Chelsea and offered them a direct swap of the 2. I can tell you now, we’d be laughed straight off the phone. 
 

As for suiting our style; I think Armstrong can do dropping in the hole and linking play, with Broja playing off the shoulder. Both offering us a goal threat. 

Still think this? Go on admit it you were trolling with the Championship striker thing

[Dman]

2 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

Still think this? Go on admit it you were trolling with the Championship striker thing

Funny enough, I was going to comment on this.

Nope, wasn’t trolling. His finishing was (and questionably still is) poor. At the time, I didn’t rate him, I didn’t think he was of the level required. 

He’s changed my mind somewhat and I think playing with someone like Broja he’s more than useful in a 2. 

I still don’t think he’s good enough to play as a lone striker however, but fair play to him, confidence seems to have picked up a bit and hes certainly improved. 

Regarding the above post, my opinion hasn’t changed there. Although clearly he’s way more of a better option than Armstrong is.

Hes gone from championship to good back up. 

[TWar]

9 minutes ago, Dman said:

Hes gone from championship to good back up. 

Christ.

[Dman]

I’d compare him to a modern day Emily Heskey. His strengths come In getting the best out of a striking partner, rather than having great ability himself. 
 

In a 2, he should be starting without a doubt based on our options, if / when we revert back to a lone striker, it has to be broja. 

[Tommy]

To the tune of Run to You by Bryan Adams

 

hes gonna run at you

hes gonna run at you

cause when the goals in sight, Adam’s will run all night

hes gonna run at you