Post Office scandal

[whelk]

The more I hear about this the more I despair. Those poor post-masters having their lives and reputations ruined and bastards at the PO covering up. They should be the ones going to prison.

[OldNick]

I know of one of these poor sods who had the village PO. Disgrace

[Turkish]

Just been watching the thing on telly it beggars belief. 

[rooney]

The senior management at the PO must be getting worried when the next stage of the Enquiry kicks in if the TV Drama is anything to go by. I hope names are named so that they lose their Pensions and any honours awarded, due to Misfeasance in Public Office.

[Saint Mikey]

When they identified 700 odd people who were apparently falsifying accounts and on the take, did no-one say 'hang on a minute, could it be the system that's wrong?'. 

[whelk]

3 hours ago, rooney said:

The senior management at the PO must be getting worried when the next stage of the Enquiry kicks in if the TV Drama is anything to go by. I hope names are named so that they lose their Pensions and any honours awarded, due to Misfeasance in Public Office.

Haven't watched all of the tv drama yet but pretty sure they have been slow awarding any compensation. 

[revolution saint]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Haven't watched all of the tv drama yet but pretty sure they have been slow awarding any compensation. 

  I binged it all on Tuesday (it's on ITV X), there's also a documentary going out after the final episode tonight which should be worth a look plus Times Radio did an interview with Alan Bates and the MP which is on YouTube.

Fascinating stuff if completely appalling.  Shows so many failures and the utter helplessness that the sub postmasters found themselves in - it's not just the post office that needs to take a kicking.  The justice system also needs to hang it's head in shame.

[badgerx16]

54 minutes ago, Saint Mikey said:

When they identified 700 odd people who were apparently falsifying accounts and on the take, did no-one say 'hang on a minute, could it be the system that's wrong?'. 

The. Post Office took the position that there were no problems with Horizon, despite reports being made almost from day 1 of discrepancies and errors. As the PO was it's own investigation and prosecution service no external agencies were involved until 2014 when an external audit reported that Horizon was "'not fit for service"', at which point the PO dismisswed the report, cancelled it's contract with the externsl auditors, allegedly told them to destroy all the paperwork, and carried on regardless.

Edited January 4 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

14 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

  The justice system also needs to hang it's head in shame.

Most of the prosecutions were private prosecutions as the PO was it's own investigation and prosecution agency. The evidence would have been presented as indisputable IT data, the PO being it's own "'expert witness"', and each case handled in isolation. Nobody outside the PO was joining the dots and internal dissention was squashed.

 

I had to deal with a lot of ICL/ FUJITSU software systems in my job, and none of it worked properly first, second, or third time.

Edited January 4 by badgerx16

[trousers]

I've not watched the programme yet but having spent 38 years (and counting!) in the banking/retail IT sector, weren't the Post Office reliant on what they were being told by Fujitsu? That doesn't excuse them from not red flagging what they were being told of course (I've never worked for either btw)

Edited January 4 by trousers

[farawaysaint]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

I've not watched the programme yet but having spent 38 years (and counting) in the banking/retail IT sector, weren't the Post Office reliant on what they were being told by Fujitsu? That doesn't excuse them from not red flagging what they were being told of course (I've never worked for either btw)

Yes and that’s part of the problem. They trusted a third party contractor over subpostmasters with unblemished records sometimes spanning decades. 
 

Several SPMs even flagged the issue of phantom reconciliations to upper management and still they chose to ignore the reports and persecute employees for “missing” funds. 
 

They should have listened to their employees who were telling them the system wasn’t working as designed as is common sense for any large scale software implementation. 

[trousers]

13 minutes ago, farawaysaint said:

They should have listened to their employees who were telling them the system wasn’t working as designed as is common sense for any large scale software implementation

Yep, I've never worked on a major IT project where that QA feedback culture wouldn't be the norm. Sure, third partiy suppliers are always protective of their software/services by default, but not to the point of covering up significant issues. It's simply not in their interest to do so as the truth will always come to the surface in the end (in my experience)

Edited January 4 by trousers

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Saint Mikey said:

When they identified 700 odd people who were apparently falsifying accounts and on the take, did no-one say 'hang on a minute, could it be the system that's wrong?'. 

It’s unbelievable. A certain % of people will be on the fiddle but they will have had years and years of records. They’ll know the numbers that were sacked or prosecuted previously as well as the monies involved & the %’s related to turnover. If they’d had issues with a handful each year, you’d have thought alarm bells would ring if it suddenly jumped massively after Horizon was installed. It beggars belief that professional auditors went into many PO’s & still came away convinced the postmaster owed them money. The whole thing stinks, and I reckon we only know the tip of the iceberg. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

Yep, I've never worked on a major IT project where that QA feedback culture wouldn't be the norm. Sure, third parties suppliers are always protective of their software/services by default, but not to the point of covering up significant issues. It's simply not in their interest to do so as the truth will always come to the surface in the end (in my experience)

If Horizon hadn't been a bespoke system for a single customer the issues being raised from more than one deployment might have made denying them more difficult.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Saint Mikey said:

When they identified 700 odd people who were apparently falsifying accounts and on the take, did no-one say 'hang on a minute, could it be the system that's wrong?'. 

Alan Bate did an interview of GMB this week where he said they were arrogant, didn't have the expertise to implement the system and did it at the cheapest possible price. I've worked in IT for 25 years and Fujitsu are a massive System Integrator globally,  they are brought in by big organisations to do these sort of transformative projects and earn huge amounts of money doing it locking the customers into expensive managed service contract so although a lot of fingers are rightly pointed at the PO for the ignorance, lies and bullying as has been said they were relying on Fujitsu and what they were telling them so so it would seem there is a point blank denial and cover up from both of them. 

[trousers]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Alan Bate did an interview of GMB this week where he said they were arrogant, didn't have the expertise to implement the system and did it at the cheapest possible price. I've worked in IT for 25 years and Fujitsu are a massive System Integrator globally,  they are brought in by big organisations to do these sort of transformative projects and earn huge amounts of money doing it locking the customers into expensive managed service contract so although a lot of fingers are rightly pointed at the PO for the ignorance, lies and bullying as has been said they were relying on Fujitsu and what they were telling them so so it would seem there is a point blank denial and cover up from both of them. 

Yep, this. It's just bizarre that they ever thought they'd get away with it...

Edited January 4 by trousers

[badgerx16]

Haven't watched the series but have just watched the documentary that was broadcast after it, it just shows how difficult it is for the 'little people' to take on and challenge monoliths like the Post Office, who know things are wrong but also know they can get away with it.

The bit I didn't know previously was the fact that FUJITSU had a back door route to give them remote access to all the Horizon terminals and accounts and could manually alter figures without the SPO ever knowing. Something that was expressly denied every time the PO or FUJITSU were asked about it.

[Fan The Flames]

Disgrace how the high flyers in the PO have not be held to account 

Petition if you are interested  https://chng.it/N4L6CHMG

[Tamesaint]

I have not yet seen the programme. What happened to these sub postmasters was an absolute  disgrace. It was a huge miscarriage of justice and the actions of senior Post Office managers cannot be condoned. 

I can understand however how  this happened. I was a manager in Post Office Counters in the mid / late 1980s. Amongst other things I was responsible for the financial probity of over 250 sub postmasters. I had an internal audit team whose full time job was to audit sub post offices (and Crown offices).

It is not incorrect to say that some sub postmasters  (definitely a very small minority - but nevertheless some) were perceived to be  *on the fiddle*. There was an instance just before I took up post when a sub postmaster stole over £300k before he fled to Pakistan never to be  seen again.

The culture of the Post  Office was to distrust all sub postmasters. It is this culture that led to this miscarriage. At the end of the day Post Office looks after public money which needs to be controlled. Unfortunately this need for control went very wrong in these instances. 

I left the Post Office in 1988 and knew nothing about the Horizon system. If I had stayed however I do wonder if I would have been caught up in this appalling affair. 

Edited January 6 by Tamesaint

[badgerx16]

 One bit in the documentary after the drama program was a woman who had been taken to Court over a discrepency. She had complained to the PO that her Horizon terminal was faulty, but was prosecuted anyway. In Court the PO prosecution team told the Judge that there was no fault with the terminal, in response the Judge asked for it to be presented so that it could be verified that it worked properly. When he was told the terminal had been taken in for repair the Judge dismissed the case.

 Mind you, by the time the case got to Court the woman had made 2 suicide attempts.

Edited January 6 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

The Met Police are investigating the investigation, looking at possible perjury in the Court appearances and fraud in the recovery of money from the SPOs after prosecution.

[whelk]

Watched it all last night. Confirmed what I thought. How those bastards sleep at night knowing they stitched up innocent people is for them to have in their conscience but would be good to see some action taken, Similar to Hillsborough. 

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, whelk said:

Watched it all last night. Confirmed what I thought. How those bastards sleep at night knowing they stitched up innocent people is for them to have in their conscience but would be good to see some action taken, Similar to Hillsborough. 

Have you watched the documentary that followed it? 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Have you watched the documentary that followed it? 

Yes, that poor completely innocent Hampshire woman still doing cleaning jobs in her retirement to make ends meet whilst Vennells gets a CBE in 2020 for services to the Post Office is enough to make you want a revolution.

Edited January 6 by whelk

[sadoldgit]

14 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

I have not yet seen the programme. What happened to these sub postmasters was an absolute  disgrace. It was a huge miscarriage of justice and the actions of senior Post Office managers cannot be condoned. 

I can understand however how  this happened. I was a manager in Post Office Counters in the mid / late 1980s. Amongst other things I was responsible for the financial probity of over 250 sub postmasters. I had an internal audit team whose full time job was to audit sub post offices (and Crown offices).

It is not incorrect to say that some sub postmasters  (definitely a very small minority - but nevertheless some) were perceived to be  *on the fiddle*. There was an instance just before I took up post when a sub postmaster stole over £300k before he fled to Pakistan never to be  seen again.

The culture of the Post  Office was to distrust all sub postmasters. It is this culture that led to this miscarriage. At the end of the day Post Office looks after public money which needs to be controlled. Unfortunately this need for control went very wrong in these instances. 

I left the Post Office in 1988 and knew nothing about the Horizon system. If I had stayed however I do wonder if I would have been caught up in this appalling affair. 

It is well worth watching, although it is heart wrenching. You are always going to get a few wrong’uns in any organisation, but over 700 and all with the same issues? It is almost unbelievable that some people are still waiting for their compensation and that no one has been prosecuted or at least held to account for what is being called the biggest miscarriage of justice in the UK. Still, at least the police have been finally shamed into action by this programme and perhaps Vennells will also feel that she should hand back her CBE.

I don’t know if it is still the case that the Post Office polices itself, if so that needs to change.

I was at the CPS when electronic files were first introduced. It took ages to get it up and running efficiently and we worked constantly with the software people to iron out the glitches. It’s incredible that the PO could roll out a new system and claim that it was faultless from day 1. 
Back to the series and they did a fantastic job in condensing the essence of the case from 20 years into 4 hours of TV. The acting was excellent as was the casting with many of the characters looking very similar to the people they were playing. 
I think many of us watched this unfold at the time in the news without getting an insight into the personal cost as well as financial cost to the victims. I defy anyone to sit through the four installments and not feel a sense of outrage as to how this could happen for so long and to so many people. You would have to be made of stone not to feel the dismay, injustice and helplessness as very normal, decent people were victimised by a giant, uncaring corporation.

TV at its best at hopefully, finally, the victims will get their rightful compensation, justice for those responsible and a sense of closure.

 

 

 

[badgerx16]

If the Home Secretary had any balls he would quash all the convictions outright, removing the need for each individual to have to make a challenge in the Courts. If one or two bent SPOs get reprieved that is a trivial point compared to the gross injustice still being enacted on the vast majority of them.

[trousers]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

If the Home Secretary had any balls he would quash all the convictions outright, removing the need for each individual to have to make a challenge in the Courts. If one or two bent SPOs get reprieved that is a trivial point compared to the gross injustice still being enacted on the vast majority of them.

Yep, this 100%. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

If the Home Secretary had any balls he would quash all the convictions outright, removing the need for each individual to have to make a challenge in the Courts. If one or two bent SPOs get reprieved that is a trivial point compared to the gross injustice still being enacted on the vast majority of them.

I can't agree with that Badger. There are many guilty SPO's out there - the lad from Rumbridge Street, Totton being one. For justice to be done, this has to be addressed on a case by case basis - you can't have an approach that vindicates and compensates guilty people. 

[trousers]

1 minute ago, egg said:

There are many guilty SPO's out there - the lad from Rumbridge Street, Totton being one.

If it's known they are already guilty then they just filter them out of the pardon list...?

[egg]

19 minutes ago, trousers said:

If it's known they are already guilty then they just filter them out of the pardon list...?

Some have pleaded guilty but claim that they weren't and took the plea to get a favourable sentence. Others knew they were but pleaded not guilty. The issue has got to be addressed, but the local lad was a greedy sod who was rightly convicted. People like him shouldn't be handed a pardon and cash. 

[trousers]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

the local lad was a greedy sod who was rightly convicted. People like him shouldn't be handed a pardon and cash. 

Totally agree in principle, but surely it'll be straightforward in retrospect to tell the difference between those who were victims of a faulty computer system (and corrupt exec mgmt) and the minority of actual financial crimes committed during the same period?

[badgerx16]

51 minutes ago, egg said:

I can't agree with that Badger. There are many guilty SPO's out there - the lad from Rumbridge Street, Totton being one. For justice to be done, this has to be addressed on a case by case basis - you can't have an approach that vindicates and compensates guilty people. 

 

20 minutes ago, trousers said:

Totally agree in principle, but surely it'll be straightforward in retrospect to tell the difference between those who were victims of a faulty computer system (and corrupt exec mgmt) and the minority of actual financial crimes committed during the same period?

If anybody was convicted purely on the basis of Horizon then there has to be more than enough doubt. If there is other corroboration then a more in depth review might be warranted.

[whelk]

The power of tv. The focus now has Jeremy Hunt saying will speed up compensation. Cynically they know us British electorate get quite riled at sense of foul play.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

I thought this was actually first reported a lot earlier than it was. I remember my first thought at reading the PO's robust defence in Computer Weekly. That they were utterly wrong, because there wasn't a chance what they were saying reflected any existing rollout.

When it was reported again, I moved that view to one between utter incompetence and complicity in covering up data. Because that reporting alone must have prompted the questions necessary to have raised red flags.

Even if the third party had explicitly signed off that their software was given to them by an infallible deity, and that it was completely full proof, it would still have raised concerns.

It didn’t take long for there to be a clear feeling that those in the PO were more than happy to throw post masters to the wolves, rather than admit any failings in the system they had backed to the hilt. They, and the third parties, made sure to support each other every step of the way. It would have been wholly negligent of the PO not to have investigated sufficiently to have raised issues. And that’s the starting point to just how far they went to pervert the course of investigations/ justice.

I was furious about it at the time, and it’s things like this and the blood scandal that completely undermine any trust in judicial/ state systems.

[rooney]

17 hours ago, whelk said:

Yes, that poor completely innocent Hampshire woman still doing cleaning jobs in her retirement to make ends meet whilst Vennells gets a CBE in 2020 for services to the Post Office is enough to make you want a revolution.

The media are reporting that Vennells  earned over £4m during her time  in office and £2m of this related to a performance related bonus. You just could not make it up and all these people in Government positions are simply taking the taxpayers for a ride. You hear about it time and time again.

[The Cat]

This has all been reported in Private Eye for 10 years or so. Amazing that there's only now been more widespread media coverage.

[CB Fry]

2 minutes ago, The Cat said:

This has all been reported in Private Eye for 10 years or so. Amazing that there's only now been more widespread media coverage.

Exactly, I've been reading about this in there for a long time.

Even Rishi this morning talking about it that it is some shocking thing he's only just heard about because of an ITV drama.

Clearly a few more TV dramas need to be made about contemporary issues.

[Tamesaint]

25 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Exactly, I've been reading about this in there for a long time.

Even Rishi this morning talking about it that it is some shocking thing he's only just heard about because of an ITV drama.

Clearly a few more TV dramas need to be made about contemporary issues.

If only we lived in a country where the Government controlled events rather than react to them. 

Rushi's attitude is amazing. I wonder what other events could come under Government scrutiny if a TV drama was made about them. 

[whelk]

56 minutes ago, The Cat said:

This has all been reported in Private Eye for 10 years or so. Amazing that there's only now been more widespread media coverage.

Been a fair bit previously as has been lead headline in news. Think the drama just hammered home the human cost by highlighting the personal traumas.

[aintforever]

On 06/01/2024 at 14:57, badgerx16 said:

If the Home Secretary had any balls he would quash all the convictions outright, removing the need for each individual to have to make a challenge in the Courts. If one or two bent SPOs get reprieved that is a trivial point compared to the gross injustice still being enacted on the vast majority of them.

This. It’s a disgrace the government haven’t sorted it out already.

[badgerx16]

Would Sunak be bothered if it wasn't an election year ? ( And yes some might say the same about opposition politicians, but they are not yet in a position to actually take action ).

[rallyboy]

Someone said Fujitsu had been awarded £7 billion of contracts by us in the last ten years - why?

Chuck in Vennells' links to Dido Harding and the Johnson cabinet, and it looks a lot like we have all been taken for mugs.

It's also a disgrace that it's taken a frigging ITV drama to get the pursuit of justice back on the front pages.

It's been an absolute shitshow of lies, incompetence and fraudulent behaviour, and those responsible have walked away unharmed.

How do they sleep?

 

[badgerx16]

18 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Someone said Fujitsu had been awarded £7 billion of contracts by us in the last ten years - why?
 

Probably a hangover from the Government's long association with ICL, much the same way CAPITA win government contracts - much too pally. ICL were absorbed into FUJITSU, but the relationships would have been retained.

[badgerx16]

26 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

.

How do they sleep?

 

They don't count sheep, they count their money.

[AlexLaw76]

27 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Someone said Fujitsu had been awarded £7 billion of contracts by us in the last ten years - why?

 

 

Because they are en enormous IT service provider

[badgerx16]

21 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Because they are en enormous IT service provider

Size does not reflect competence, but it does allow you to offer larger inducements.

Edited January 8 by badgerx16

[trousers]

47 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Probably a hangover from the Government's long association with ICL, much the same way CAPITA win government contracts - much too pally. ICL were absorbed into FUJITSU, but the relationships would have been retained.

My company were approached by the military/defence division of Fujitsu a couple of years ago to discuss supplying them with some software. They certainly had an 'old fashioned' public sector feel about their approach and practices (similar vibe to the NHS's IT department), so wouldn't surprise me if they were 'in bed' with the UK establishment in some shape or form...

P.s. I did wonder why the ITV docu-drama didn't portray anyone high up in Fujitsu... seems like an odd omission on the surface given they would surely have either been withholding info on Horizon from the Post Office or have been complicit in supporting the Post Office's decision to cover up what was occurring....?

Edited January 8 by trousers

[AlexLaw76]

24 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Size does not reflect competence, but it does allow you to offer larger inducements.

They have a track record of providing world class IT services.

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, trousers said:

My company were approached by the military/defence division of Fujitsu a couple of years ago to discuss supplying them with some software. They certainly had an 'old fashioned' public sector feel about their approach and practices (similar vibe to the NHS's IT department), so wouldn't surprise me if they were 'in bed' with the UK establishment in some shape or form...

ICL were the principal IT supplier to the Post Office, as with much of the Public Sector through the 70s, 80s, and 90s, so there was a long standing relationship which transferred to FUJITSU once ICL had been fully absorbed into it's parent company.

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They have a track record of providing world class IT services.

They also have a track record of releasing poorly designed and tested large IT software suites. ( From somebody who knows ).