Stephens

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

I’m sure THB was hooked because of the yellow but to do it so early, and given that it’s a cup game next week, which I doubt THB would’ve featured in anyway, makes it a tad bizarre.

Indeed one late tackle away from a red and playing the remainder of the match with the advantage of 10 makes it’s really strange 

[whelk]

Just now, Turkish said:

Indeed one late tackle away from a red and playing the remainder of the match with the advantage of 10 makes it’s really strange 

It is really odd but the modern fan marvels in seeing it as great ‘game management’

[Give it to Ron]

Coming away after 3-1 bit disappointing with game second half. First 30 was great home team first shot was 26 mins.

we should have been out of site at half time. I thought Baz should have done better on goal but not seen replay seemed an odd jump.

we dropped tempo got sloppy and let them in and got away with it. 
Stu touch was awful today, Smally good after poor first ten. AdamA good as always but my MOTM was Manning he at times has been liability but today was his best game won some good headers and used it well. He had very little cover at times but coped. Hard on Flyn who was tremendous 
Fraser put in some good crosses will feel he should have scored that half volley.

We were that far ahead we just tried to see it out hang on bloody cold walking away from ground but 3 points move on.

Edited 20 January, 2024 by Give it to Ron

[Give it to Ron]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

It is really odd but the modern fan marvels in seeing it as great ‘game management’

When he was subbed we looked comfortable and Swansea up front didn’t look much .

What Martin didn’t realise was how shit Stephens would be! 

[Turkish]

8 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

When he was subbed we looked comfortable and Swansea up front didn’t look much .

What Martin didn’t realise was how shit Stephens would be! 

And to think people were on about Stephens playing as a central midfielder in the premier league 🤣🤣

[saintant]

1 hour ago, VectisSaint said:

Huge clanger from Stephens today, absolute shocker, although in the end he was the one who finally cleared the danger. Was on the pitch today cos RM protected Taylor who was on a yellow. We were already looking shaky before Stephens came on, we did our old trick of retreating into our cocky, defensive, knock it around at the back shell, though to be fair credit to Swansea who changed things very effectively at half time after being completely and utterly outclassed in the first half. I'm not a fan of Stephens replacing Taylor, because we lose so much when Taylor goes, particularly going forward, again today his long or lofted passes across or over the defenders are quite brilliant. Jan doesn't have that to the same extent so Stephens on for Bedders isn't such a problem. Still for you Jack haters, he hasn't played in a losing team so far this season, so even an almighty clanger like today actually makes no difference, and remember we did concede while Taylor/Jan were in the centre (though it was offside and handball).

I doubt many are 'Jack haters' and I know I'm not. For me he is not good enough to slot in and play the style of football we are becoming so accomplished at. He has always been one who dithers and dwells on the ball and is not good enough or calm enough to integrate into the way we play out from the back. This leads to uncertainty in his fellow defenders and, what was a fluid transition, becomes disjointed and far less effective. He's obviously a great pro but I have little confidence in him and get nervous when he's on the pitch.

Edited 20 January, 2024 by saintant

[gio1saints]

Shock horror- Captain plays a semi duff match saints web forum condemns him to death. 

He’s our captain. He’s a human not a perfect machine. He has played well for us other times. Not so much today. Get over it with the overreaction and snide comments. SUPPORT YOUR SKIPPER you faithless lot. 
 

Alternately send SR a stern letter saying never pick him again you fickle football geniuses. 😕

[Convict Colony]

Think people need to realise he's a bit rusty and getting his form back.

[beatlesaint]

1 hour ago, Give it to Ron said:

You do understand he came on asTHB was booked earlier?

I do understand that was the given reason yeah but given THB has only been booked three times this season he wasn’t exactly a ticking time bomb.

[gio1saints]

RM said in interview THB was taken off cos was on a yellow. To avoid a red and us being down to ten. JS has been the go to CB since return from injury. No mystery. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

I remain convinced it’s not Stephens per se. It is the Stephens and Bednarek partnership that is a car crash waiting to happen. Don’t ask me why…I’ve not analysed it in depth, but to my eyes they get in each other’s way…take up the same space too many times and get caught out of position too many times, probably over compensating. Both players look MUCH better when playing alongside THB who is our best CB. Bednarek is slightly better than Stephens so makes sense to start him, but if THB comes off for Stephens as he did today, we’re likely going to see a cluster-fook of a defensive performance.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

20 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Shock horror- Captain plays a semi duff match saints web forum condemns him to death. 

He’s our captain. He’s a human not a perfect machine. He has played well for us other times. Not so much today. Get over it with the overreaction and snide comments. SUPPORT YOUR SKIPPER you faithless lot. 
 

Alternately send SR a stern letter saying never pick him again you fickle football geniuses. 😕

So fuckin what if he is captain? He shouldn't be brought on for arguably the best centre half in the Championship after 60 odd minutes. The bullshit about the yellow card is just that. I cannot remember anyone else pulling off subs like this other than Martin. Fair enough you could argue the case if it was a central midfielder, but bringing off a centre half for any other reason other than injury or tactical is completely unnecessary. We've done brilliantly over the last few months, and Martin deserves all the plaudits, but this just wasn't needed.

[Harry_SFC]

5 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

So fuckin what if he is captain? He shouldn't be brought on for arguably the best centre half in the Championship after 60 odd minutes. The bullshit about the yellow card is just that. I cannot remember anyone else pulling off subs like this other than Martin. Fair enough you could argue the case if it was a central midfielder, but bringing off a centre half for any other reason other than injury or tactical is completely unnecessary. We've done brilliantly over the last few months, and Martin deserves all the plaudits, but this just wasn't needed.

Yeah, the yellow card thing is a load of rubbish. It's not like THB was fouling people left, right and centre and likely to be sent off. The bigger risk is bringing off one of the best CB's in the league for an average player who is known to have big mistakes in him. 

[gio1saints]

RM said in interview THB was taken off cos was on a yellow. To avoid a red and us being down to ten. JS has been the go to CB since return from injury. No mystery. 

Im sorry if you feel RM is a bullshitter for giving his reason for replacing THB as above. I’m sure he’s gonna be devastated at your opinion. 

Edited 20 January, 2024 by gio1saints

[sfc4prem]

Just now, Harry_SFC said:

Yeah, the yellow card thing is a load of rubbish. It's not like THB was fouling people left, right and centre and likely to be sent off. The bigger risk is bringing off one of the best CB's in the league for an average player who is known to have big mistakes in him. 

Good point. Which one is more likely to result in giving away a 2 goal lead? Probably bringing THB off.

[Wade Garrett]

The pass he played across the box that got intercepted is one that he’s been guilty of several times this season.  Personally, I would prefer Holgate to be our 3rd choice CB.

[beatlesaint]

33 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Shock horror- Captain plays a semi duff match saints web forum condemns him to death. 

He’s our captain. He’s a human not a perfect machine. He has played well for us other times. Not so much today. Get over it with the overreaction and snide comments. SUPPORT YOUR SKIPPER you faithless lot. 
 

Alternately send SR a stern letter saying never pick him again you fickle football geniuses. 😕

You don’t have to be a football genius to work out he’s no better than average. Christ he’s been here long enough even you should have worked that out by now.

If RM is desperate to play him put him in for the cup game. 

[Harry_SFC]

Just now, sfc4prem said:

Good point. Which one is more likely to result in giving away a 2 goal lead? Probably bringing THB off.

I would totally get it if he was walking a tight rope, but given that Martin seems to be bringing Stephens on in every game, I think it's because he feels he has to involve him.

Just waiting for LD to join the thread and call me an idiot now. 

[markr27]

When Stephens came on, he disrupted the entire back line. 

KWP had to get used to Bednarek on his side.

Bednarek had to get used to playing on the right side of the defence and with KWP.

Manning lost Bednarek and gained Stephens on his side.

Stephens was also culpable of being too deep on a few occasions as everyone else pushed up.

Rm had his reasons of course. but against better finishing it could and perhaps would have been two points dropped.

However, 3 points. Move on.

 

 

Edited 20 January, 2024 by markr27

[gio1saints]

1 minute ago, beatlesaint said:

You don’t have to be a football genius to work out he’s no better than average. Christ he’s been here long enough even you should have worked that out by now.

If RM is desperate to play him put him in for the cup game. 

Send RM a memo to that effect. You seem to know your football. I think “even”RM might change his mind and agree to only play JS in Cup you seem so knowledgeable.
To call JS average is hardly a criticism btw- he’s third choice CB - what do you expect - Virgil Van Dyke to come off the bench ? Even I know that. 😂😂😂

[Harry_SFC]

1 minute ago, gio1saints said:

Send RM a memo to that effect. You seem to know your football. I think “even”RM might change his mind and agree to only play JS in Cup you seem so knowledgeable.
To call JS average is hardly a criticism btw- he’s third choice CB - what do you expect - Virgil Van Dyke to come off the bench ? Even I know that. 😂😂😂

I don't think you've got to be as good as VVD to be able to play basic passes to your team mates...

[JRM]

27 minutes ago, markr27 said:

When Stephens came on, he disrupted the entire back line. 

KWP had to get used to Bednarek on his side.

Bednarek had to get used to playing on the right side of the defence and with KWP.

Manning lost Bednarek and gained Stephens on his side.

Stephens was also culpable of being too deep on a few occasions as everyone else pushed up.

Rm had his reasons of course. but against better finishing it could and perhaps would have been two points dropped.

However, 3 points. Move on.

 

 

The defence was disrupted but there was plenty going wrong in front of them that lead the defence to suddenly be under a lot of pressure, we'd stopped attacking and were sloppy passing. 

Game would have been over long before if we'd also been more clinical in front of goal, lots of missed chances. 

[austsaint]

7 hours ago, whelk said:

That’s no reason in itself to sub a player. Fck me players on a yellow can be disciplined to not get another. 

Romeu made an art form out of it - record amount of yellows.....never sent off.      

[Patrick Bateman]

6 hours ago, markr27 said:

When Stephens came on, he disrupted the entire back line. 

KWP had to get used to Bednarek on his side.

Bednarek had to get used to playing on the right side of the defence and with KWP.

Manning lost Bednarek and gained Stephens on his side.

Stephens was also culpable of being too deep on a few occasions as everyone else pushed up.

Rm had his reasons of course. but against better finishing it could and perhaps would have been two points dropped.

However, 3 points. Move on.

 

 

100% this. Well summed up. The impact of that change was noticeable and negative. 

[chiknsmack]

My "problem" (I'm fine with Stephens as club captain and third choice CB since he's fine in those roles at this level) is that he was taking more risks in possession than the other players in the defence/defensive midfield. Not just the obvious (square balls to no-one across the area), but when he was pressed he waited that half-beat longer than everyone else to move the ball on.

If anyone else was pressed and had the chance to pass before the opponent got within two yards of them, they would. JS was waiting until the opponent was within touching distance to do so. Whether he's braver or slower (physically and mentally) than everyone else, I don't know. But that looked to me to be the main cause of his problems.

[gio1saints]

Jack Stephens came on and almost gave an assist to swans. The whole team looked ragged last twenty. Some might argue it was him that caused the team being ragged but realise that it was more a collective failing - including from RM- that led to that dip in our performance. Added to that a substantial uplift in Swanseas tactics and performance.

I know people need a scapegoat every match but honestly if you look at the big picture Jack Stephens way of playing football epitomises the new ( 21 matches undefeated ) saints style. Bold brave risky but still doing it approach. Sometimes it doesn’t come off. Sometimes it does. 

For those interested in JS scouting analysis check below. It’s only 530 minutes for him but interesting all the same ( for some - and might make you review your meh views on JS and tell you why he’s playing) . If you think they are meaningless BS don’t hit the link 

https://fbref.com/en/players/6adbc307/Jack-Stephens

NB. My favourite stat from the link is that he is virtually bottom ( I think he IS actually bottom), for clearances. Jack simply does not do clearances. 😁He says it’s not in his job description so he’s not doing them. 😂. Think on it. A CB that doesn’t do clearances! 🤫

Edited 21 January, 2024 by gio1saints

[beatlesaint]

16 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

NB. My favourite stat from the link is that he is virtually bottom ( I think he IS actually bottom), for clearances. Jack simply does not do clearances. 😁He says it’s not in his job description so he’s not doing them. 😂. Think on it. A CB that doesn’t do clearances! 🤫

Well you've just shot a bloody great hole through your own argument with that then havent you ? If you cant see the danger and clerar the ball when its there thats nothing to boast about, its the very reason he's got so many errors in him. 

[Wade Garrett]

33 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Jack Stephens came on and almost gave an assist to swans. The whole team looked ragged last twenty. Some might argue it was him that caused the team being ragged but realise that it was more a collective failing - including from RM- that led to that dip in our performance. Added to that a substantial uplift in Swanseas tactics and performance.

I know people need a scapegoat every match but honestly if you look at the big picture Jack Stephens way of playing football epitomises the new ( 21 matches undefeated ) saints style. Bold brave risky but still doing it approach. Sometimes it doesn’t come off. Sometimes it does. 

For those interested in JS scouting analysis check below. It’s only 530 minutes for him but interesting all the same ( for some - and might make you review your meh views on JS and tell you why he’s playing) . If you think they are meaningless BS don’t hit the link 

https://fbref.com/en/players/6adbc307/Jack-Stephens

NB. My favourite stat from the link is that he is virtually bottom ( I think he IS actually bottom), for clearances. Jack simply does not do clearances. 😁He says it’s not in his job description so he’s not doing them. 😂. Think on it. A CB that doesn’t do clearances! 🤫

Saying somewhat played dogshit is not satisfying a need for a scapegoat.  It is an opinion on someone’s performance/ability.

[gio1saints]

37 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

Well you've just shot a bloody great hole through your own argument with that then havent you ? If you cant see the danger and clerar the ball when its there thats nothing to boast about, its the very reason he's got so many errors in him. I think you may not understand my thinking on this. I’m not saying he’s the greatest player in the team. 

Im not sure what you think my argument is? That he’s not as bad as some make out? I’d go with that. If you disagree -fine.
 

From the data and from my own eyes it does much appear that he is the epitome of a Russell Martin ball playing Centreback. Every other CB in the league is programmed to pretty much clear it yet he, uniquely is a stand out in not doing so. He shows immense leadership and example in refusing to boot it long. VERY Often when it’s by far the easier option. 

Im not sure if we ever have had such a ball playing CB with that iron will ( you might call it stupidity or lack of ability or poor choice making) to NOT just hoof it. 
 

There’s a time and a place for just clearing it and we must do so, of course I get it. That JS after 530 minutes does not appear to do so is not an accident though and dies not undermine any argument. Rather it confirms that as Captain he has been told, and personally understands, that if this PB football is to work it needs 100% commitment to retaining the ball. And as Captain he must show the ultimate leadership in that. If he falters they all are allowed to falter. 
I hope that explains it a bit better for you. I’m NOT agreeing it’s right to not clear it. I AM explaining why he does not- and my take on it- which is that it’s awesome he has that stat!😇

[david in sweden]

17 hours ago, beatlesaint said:

I do understand that was the given reason yeah but given THB has only been booked three times this season he wasn’t exactly a ticking time bomb.

ONLY three bookings may make him seem like a choirboy, (especially compared to Bednarek's record so far), but having picked up an early booking

he was only one tackle away from a red card, and to lose our best defender for the remainder of the game (and potentially the next)  must have been a 

fact that played into the equation the moment the ref. put his hand to his pocket .  ANYONE on a yellow card is a "ticking bomb" especially a defender.

 

Whilst I agree with those (above) who commented of Stephens " indifferent performance" ..with hindsight ..Jack is still on the way back and 

all things considered ... it was probably the correct decision anyway at the time.

Edited 21 January, 2024 by david in sweden

[miserableoldgit]

56 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Saying somewhat played dogshit is not satisfying a need for a scapegoat.  It is an opinion on someone’s performance/ability.

But surely, saying that he played dogshit yesterday is an opinion. Saying that he IS dogshit and should never be in the team, as some have said, is coming close to "scapegoat" territory? When does continually, and completely belittling a players ability, stop being an opinion and start being scapegoatism?

[Chez]

11 hours ago, austsaint said:

Romeu made an art form out of it - record amount of yellows.....never sent off.      

he was never quite as effective in a game once he got a yellow though. He couldn't make certain tackles and the opportunity to commit a professional foul to prevent break away/bad situation was off course gone. An early yellow for a CM is bad news and has a subtle impact, all be it not one that always effects the result.

[Lord Duckhunter]

18 hours ago, gio1saints said:

RM said in interview THB was taken off cos was on a yellow. To avoid a red and us being down to ten. JS has been the go to CB since return from injury. No mystery. 

Strikes me as bit arrogant. A “game over” type of substitution if you ask me. Turned out that assessment was right, but let’s hope Martin learns from it and keeps the starting pairing together if they’re playing well. Young Centre halves need to learn to play on a yellow, it’s part of their development. 

[Mixedkebab]

The type of conversations on this thread about Stephens are years old, he’s just never been very reliable. His brain doesn’t seem to be able to keep up with the game for the duration he’s on the pitch.

He has the odd match or 2 where he looks good but it never seems to last long. I know Holgate started terribly here but I think he’s a better defender.

[Mr X]

19 hours ago, markr27 said:

When Stephens came on, he disrupted the entire back line. 

KWP had to get used to Bednarek on his side.

Bednarek had to get used to playing on the right side of the defence and with KWP.

Manning lost Bednarek and gained Stephens on his side.

Stephens was also culpable of being too deep on a few occasions as everyone else pushed up.

Rm had his reasons of course. but against better finishing it could and perhaps would have been two points dropped.

However, 3 points. Move on.

 

 

This, I felt as soon as Stephens came on the entire side looked totally disjointed and Swansea came back into the game strongly, Its not Stephens fault as he is Captain, he is capable of a decent game but if we are honest its far and few between and he is a distinctly mediocre player prone to brain farts.  I feel he is a weak link but Martin feels he is obliged to play him when fit  

[Wade Garrett]

2 hours ago, miserableoldgit said:

But surely, saying that he played dogshit yesterday is an opinion. Saying that he IS dogshit and should never be in the team, as some have said, is coming close to "scapegoat" territory? When does continually, and completely belittling a players ability, stop being an opinion and start being scapegoatism?

If you don’t rate him, you don’t rate him.  That is just an opinion.  Nothing to do with scapegoating.

For me, he isn’t a great defender, loses his man a lot of the time.  He gives the ball away too much in dangerous positions.  I don’t feel confident when he is brought on.  I think Holgate is better.

[redkeith]

13 hours ago, austsaint said:

Romeu made an art form out of it - record amount of yellows.....never sent off.      

Romeu got sent off for Girona away at Real Socieadad last season.  Nothing lasts for ever .

[Lee On Solent Saint]

3 hours ago, gio1saints said:

Rather it confirms that as Captain he has been told, and personally understands, that if this PB football is to work it needs 100% commitment to retaining the ball. And as Captain he must show the ultimate leadership in that. If he falters they all are allowed to falter.

Stephens is only captain by default. The absolute only reason he is captain is because he has been here the longest. Nothing else. He's not a leader anymore than Adam Armstrong is or JWP before him. 

[gio1saints]

21 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Stephens is only captain by default. The absolute only reason he is captain is because he has been here the longest. Nothing else. He's not a leader anymore than Adam Armstrong is or JWP before him. 

Disagree. Geel that’s harsh. He is more vocally demonstrative than either.

RM regularly talked about how quiet team was as a negative - with JS back there’s much more and better communication. 

When he started playing again I lost count of times at SMS he was commending Baz and encouraging others around him - off the ball - That was noticeable by its absence previously. RM feels JS as skipper adds value. Maybe it’s the CB union but on balance I agree. There’s a case for THB but until he’s our player it would be weird for a loaner to be captain.

 

[beatlesaint]

19 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Disagree. Geel that’s harsh. He is more vocally demonstrative than either.

RM regularly talked about how quiet team was as a negative - with JS back there’s much more and better communication. 

When he started playing again I lost count of times at SMS he was commending Baz and encouraging others around him - off the ball - That was noticeable by its absence previously. RM feels JS as skipper adds value. Maybe it’s the CB union but on balance I agree. There’s a case for THB but until he’s our player it would be weird for a loaner to be captain.

 

Well we agree on something then 🤣

He’s very vocal and encouraging to his team mates. That’s definitely a strength of his, he has leadership qualities.

I’m going to resist the temptation to say he should improve his own game before trying to improve others however 😜😉

[miserableoldgit]

2 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

If you don’t rate him, you don’t rate him.  That is just an opinion.  Nothing to do with scapegoating.

For me, he isn’t a great defender, loses his man a lot of the time.  He gives the ball away too much in dangerous positions.  I don’t feel confident when he is brought on.  I think Holgate is better.

So at what point did MH become better than JS? Was it after his disastrous for two or three first games, or after his MotM performance against WBA?

[Wade Garrett]

3 hours ago, miserableoldgit said:

So at what point did MH become better than JS? Was it after his disastrous for two or three first games, or after his MotM performance against WBA?

He’s always been better.  
 

[Whitey Grandad]

7 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

If you don’t rate him, you don’t rate him.  That is just an opinion.  Nothing to do with scapegoating.

For me, he isn’t a great defender, loses his man a lot of the time.  He gives the ball away too much in dangerous positions.  I don’t feel confident when he is brought on.  I think Holgate is better.

Your description of him describes the way he has always played. He goes off chasing rabbits and gets out of position. He’s been doing it for years and doesn’t seem to have learnt anything.

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

30 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Your description of him describes the way he has always played. He goes off chasing rabbits and gets out of position. He’s been doing it for years and doesn’t seem to have learnt anything.

And that's the problem. It's not that he's rusty, he just isn't very good and never was. Jack's first game back for the u23's was the exact same sloppy pass as yesterday and that time it cost a goal. The team has got better so comparatively, he's a lot worse...arguably the weakest link in the team.

[Paulwantsapint81]

JS will play a massive role if we get promoted, he isn’t afraid to use the dark arts & be nasty

[Holmes_and_Watson]

4 minutes ago, Paulwantsapint81 said:

JS will play a massive role if we get promoted, he isn’t afraid to use the dark arts & be nasty

On Police Advice, Zombie Hordes were to be treated as pitch invaders by match officials. That must be back in the late '80s now. Football's just not the same these days...

[derry]

Jack Stephens has a major fault in that he often gets caught out through his ball watching. On Saturday he made a poor pass but then put in a last ditch block immediately.

I think the problem was the disruption of making two changes in the back four for no reason. Bednarek has played left side with THB virtually all season. Stephens is essentially a right sided player yet he came on, went left side and Bednarek changed to the right. The disruption was noticeable. Whilst Stephens has even played reasonably at left back he isn't comfortable on the left. Bednarek should have stayed left side and Stephens just slotted in on the right side. It would have allowed him to be more comfortable on his natural side.

[Dell McDellFace]

I like Jack Stephens and think he is the right character for club captain. He is confident and assured on the pitch and doesn't take any sh*t from anyone. Perhaps his composure is what gets the better of him on occasion, leading to mistakes. Mistakes happen, especially when the team set out to play from the back like most modern teams do. I think the one area where he could improve is recovery after a mistake, he almost freezes and watches on. Last Saturday was one example of this after his pass across the penalty box, another was in the heavy home defeat to Tottenham a couple of seasons ago where he twice let Son get the better of him and just pulled up and watched him take off. With someone like Salisu or ABK alongside him it might not have been such an issue, but with Bednarek it's a problem. Not that I would drop Bednarek

[VectisSaint]

1 hour ago, Dell McDellFace said:

 I think the one area where he could improve is recovery after a mistake, he almost freezes and watches on. Last Saturday was one example of this after his pass across the penalty box, 

Except it was Stephens who got stuck in and made sure the danger was cleared (eventually), you can't seriously accuse him of "watching on" after his calamitous pass. What he did was inexcusable but he did at least make every effort to clear the danger (fortunately Swansea had failed to capitalise on his mistake). 

[Saint_clark]

Serious question, Stephens has been at the club for 13 years now. What circumstances do people think would justify him getting a testimonial? He's 29 so could feasibly end up being at the club for 15-18 years.