The centre-back dilemma

[Fraser Spinney]

With Stephens returning yesterday and Harwood-Bellis and Bednarek being so good lately, is it a good problem to have or could this lead to disruption?

https://www.southamptonfc.news/match-coverage/why-russell-martins-new-problem-is-a-blessing-in-disguise-for-southampton/

Edited 18 December, 2023 by Fraser Spinney

[madge]

Stephens certainly shouldn’t start. HB and jan are looking pretty good together. Stephens no doubt gets run out against Walsall 

[the saint in winchester]

I would have HB as first choice, Stephens and Bedders alternating. But conscious Stephens is our captain, so he may get the nod. Whichever way, just hope those 3 get regular games. As a result, we can probably let the Everton loanee return in January.

[Barsiem]

Ain't broke (currently), so don't fix it.  THB & Bednarek stay as starters for me

[saintant]

Until either Bednarek or THB has a bad game surely it's best to let them continue and Stephens will have to bide his time.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

Don't care if Stephens is captain or not. THB and Beds for me. They deserve to be our first choice pairing.

[trousers]

  On 17/12/2023 at 18:30, saintant said:

Until either Bednarek or THB has a bad game surely it's best to let them continue and Stephens will have to bide his time.

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Indeed, and I seem to recall Russell alluding to this in a recent press conference too

Edited 17 December, 2023 by trousers

[Colinjb]

No Dilemma. Stick with what works.

[EBS1980]

He’ll probably get a game over Xmas when Bedders gets rested for a game but Bedders and THB are settled, working well together and so silly to break it up. Until an injury or loss of form Stephens will have to settle for being backup. 

[SaintNewForest]

Isn't it amazing to finally have some decent options all playing well.

Gone are the days of (a pre-Villa loan) Bednarek, Lyanco & Salisu stinking the defence out.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Interesting that for my money THB has transformed his performances so well that he’s now close to being our no.1 CB. Not so sure RM sees it that way though and I suspect it will be THB that makes way for the return of Stephens unfortunately because he’s Captain and both he and Bedders are very vocal on the pitch.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

  On 18/12/2023 at 09:35, Saint Fan CaM said:

Interesting that for my money THB has transformed his performances so well that he’s now close to being our no.1 CB. Not so sure RM sees it that way though and I suspect it will be THB that makes way for the return of Stephens unfortunately because he’s Captain and both he and Bedders are very vocal on the pitch.

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It would be pretty harsh on TBH if he had to make way for Stephens. I would rather keep it as it is, unless injury or lack of form dictates a change. The defence in the main has been settled. Why make a change just for the sake of it because Stephens is captain? Is he an upgrade on TBH? I would venture not.

[Saint Fan CaM]

  On 18/12/2023 at 09:42, Lee On Solent Saint said:

It would be pretty harsh on TBH if he had to make way for Stephens. I would rather keep it as it is, unless injury or lack of form dictates a change. The defence in the main has been settled. Why make a change just for the sake of it because Stephens is captain? Is he an upgrade on TBH? I would venture not.

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Agreed, but RM couldn’t wait to get Stephens on the pitch on Saturday and we know who made way.

[austsaint]

  On 18/12/2023 at 09:42, Lee On Solent Saint said:

It would be pretty harsh on TBH if he had to make way for Stephens. I would rather keep it as it is, unless injury or lack of form dictates a change. The defence in the main has been settled. Why make a change just for the sake of it because Stephens is captain? Is he an upgrade on TBH? I would venture not.

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I like Jack Stephens - the Cornish Maldini - and he's still a very good CB at this level, but THB, at just 21, already looks a player who is ready for the Prem.    Improving all the time and looks to have forged a solid partnership with Bednarek.    They have to remain the starting CBs; Stephens has to bide his time and Holgate looks expendable.      It was a bit strange to see THB subbed to give JS a run out.    Let's hope he's not pissed off about the early shower.     The Club needs to do everything they can to keep THB a Saints player beyond this season.  Promotion being the obvious key to Harwood-Bellis signing/staying.

[beatlesaint]

  On 18/12/2023 at 09:46, Saint Fan CaM said:

Agreed, but RM couldn’t wait to get Stephens on the pitch on Saturday and we know who made way.

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Well I think you are reading too much into that BUT if he does prefer Jack Stephens to either of the current shirt holders the mans an absolute bloody fool. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

  On 18/12/2023 at 10:41, beatlesaint said:

Well I think you are reading too much into that BUT if he does prefer Jack Stephens to either of the current shirt holders the mans an absolute bloody fool. 

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Agreed - we’ll see I guess, but I wouldn’t put it past RM as Jack S is the senior player and will have his ear.

[SNSUN]

  On 17/12/2023 at 18:15, the saint in winchester said:

I would have HB as first choice, Stephens and Bedders alternating. But conscious Stephens is our captain, so he may get the nod. Whichever way, just hope those 3 get regular games. As a result, we can probably let the Everton loanee return in January.

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3 CBS with Charles as back up would worry me - we need 4 CBS. Whether that's Holgate or someone else I don't care, but fewer than 4 over a long season (where we've already shown we needed Holgate at times) would worry me if we want to battle for promotion.

  On 17/12/2023 at 18:27, Barsiem said:

Ain't broke (currently), so don't fix it.  THB & Bednarek stay as starters for me

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  On 17/12/2023 at 20:22, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Don't care if Stephens is captain or not. THB and Beds for me. They deserve to be our first choice pairing.

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Yeah this. THB and Bednarek have been doing fine. Just because Jack is captain doesn't mean we have to play him. Unfortunately he got injured and our defence improved. His time will come. 

[SaintBobby]

JB and THB have been excellent. Don't disrupt it. But there will be injuries, niggles, possibly suspensions and Cup games. JS is an excellent 3rd choice. 

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 18/12/2023 at 10:47, SNSUN said:

3 CBS with Charles as back up would worry me - we need 4 CBS. Whether that's Holgate or someone else I don't care, but fewer than 4 over a long season (where we've already shown we needed Holgate at times) would worry me if we want to battle for promotion.

 

Yeah this. THB and Bednarek have been doing fine. Just because Jack is captain doesn't mean we have to play him. Unfortunately he got injured and our defence improved. His time will come. 

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  On 18/12/2023 at 11:46, SaintBobby said:

JB and THB have been excellent. Don't disrupt it. But there will be injuries, niggles, possibly suspensions and Cup games. JS is an excellent 3rd choice. 

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I still have my concerns over Bednarek and have mentioned this before. 
 

That said, I still have my concerns over Stephens 😵‍💫

[SNSUN]

  On 18/12/2023 at 12:19, Whitey Grandad said:

 

I still have my concerns over Bednarek and have mentioned this before. 
 

That said, I still have my concerns over Stephens 😵‍💫

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If Vestergaard can make a passable attempt at being a CB in the Championship, I think Bednarek and Stephens can. Granted they're not perfect and will make the odd mistake but they're probably better than most others in this league. Absolutely both would need replacing if we went up though as first choice - there's a reason why we sent them out on loan in the Prem.

[gio1saints]

  On 17/12/2023 at 17:27, Fraser Spinney said:

With Stephens returning yesterday and Harwood-Bellis and Bernardo being so good lately, is it a good problem to have or could this lead to disruption?

https://www.southamptonfc.news/match-coverage/why-russell-martins-new-problem-is-a-blessing-in-disguise-for-southampton/

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Bernardo. First time I’ve heard him called that. Love it! ❤️

[gio1saints]

This season Jan does seem ( to me anyway) to be the leader of the defence. He is the one who takes the first ball from Gav more often than not and determines the play from there. He’s often got ball possession on half way line and deciding what’s going to happen and his interplay with Flynn in particular is v good. 

THB seems to be a brilliant foil. They have developed a very good telepathic understanding of how to back each other up - which earlier in season was absent and it shows in more clean sheets. That understanding is worth milliseconds of thought and movement and has undoubtedly saved us goals already this season from where we were earlier. 

That all says to me JS can only start in the FA cup or if there is injury or suspensions or poor form in training - for now. And if he does I suspect it would be THB to give way. 
 

As for Mason - if Everton want him back I’m ok with that as I actually trust in Shea as a back up option also. Incidentally how is Salisu getting on?  

[danjosaint]

  On 18/12/2023 at 12:38, gio1saints said:

Incidentally how is Salisu getting on?  

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Think he done his vanishing act but has just started playing the last few games

[gio1saints]

And we get Bella Kotchap back in the summer ( or more likely we get a big fee for him) which could well end up funding the THB permanent move and possibly part of getting Mason here on a perm also. 
IF BK stays fit he is a £30m player. I think the THB fee is set at c£20m ( I think!) and best guess is Mason might be c £10m from Everton so it could be a net neutral centre back thing in the summer for Saints if we are up with Jack, Mason, Jan and THB as our EPL centre backs ( with Shea as back up). Seems sound enough to me. 

[Miltonaggro]

Think the only real dilemma will be how to break it to Stephens that Adam Armstrong is going to continue as Captain.  The development of the THB / Bednarek partnership has arguably been the difference over the past couple of months.  Short of serious injury or a cliff edge drop in form, Martin isn't daft enough to tinker with that.  

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 18/12/2023 at 12:24, SNSUN said:

If Vestergaard can make a passable attempt at being a CB in the Championship, I think Bednarek and Stephens can. Granted they're not perfect and will make the odd mistake but they're probably better than most others in this league. Absolutely both would need replacing if we went up though as first choice - there's a reason why we sent them out on loan in the Prem.

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Indeed there is. It’s part of the same reason that we got relegated.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 18/12/2023 at 13:08, Miltonaggro said:

Think the only real dilemma will be how to break it to Stephens that Adam Armstrong is going to continue as Captain.  The development of the THB / Bednarek partnership has arguably been the difference over the past couple of months.  Short of serious injury or a cliff edge drop in form, Martin isn't daft enough to tinker with that.  

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I think Aa will stay as onfield captain. The reason that Stephens took over on Saturday was that Adam was substituted.

[saintant]

  On 18/12/2023 at 13:59, Whitey Grandad said:

I think Aa will stay as onfield captain. The reason that Stephens took over on Saturday was that Adam was substituted.

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I'm not so sure. RM is a huge fan of Stephens as a leader so I reckon when he plays he'll always skipper the side.

[swannymere]

I've always thought Stephens would make a good midfield enforcer, nothing to back this statement up just a gut feeling.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 18/12/2023 at 14:17, saintant said:

I'm not so sure. RM is a huge fan of Stephens as a leader so I reckon when he plays he'll always skipper the side.

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I think Stephens would be a better choice.

[malcolm waldron]

  On 18/12/2023 at 14:21, swannymere said:

I've always thought Stephens would make a good midfield enforcer, nothing to back this statement up just a gut feeling.

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I thought the Man City away game a couple of years go put that idea to bed....or am I getting my matches confused?

[Turkish]

  On 17/12/2023 at 21:21, EBS1980 said:

He’ll probably get a game over Xmas when Bedders gets rested for a game but Bedders and THB are settled, working well together and so silly to break it up. Until an injury or loss of form Stephens will have to settle for being backup. 

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Who is Bedders?

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 18/12/2023 at 15:50, Turkish said:

Who is Bedders?

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Someone you want to bed?

When I was at university it was someone who made your bed.

[Tommy Mulgrew]

Mine was a right old crone.

[The Kraken]

  On 18/12/2023 at 13:59, Whitey Grandad said:

I think Aa will stay as onfield captain. The reason that Stephens took over on Saturday was that Adam was substituted.

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Don’t think so.

Stephens came on after 66 minutes, my recollection is that Armstrong immediately ran over to him and put the armband on him. Armstrong wasn’t subbed off until 76 minutes.

[Saint_clark]

It would be absolutely ridiculous to disrupt it now after bleating on for so long about needing to learn the system etc. 

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 18/12/2023 at 17:30, The Kraken said:

Don’t think so.

Stephens came on after 66 minutes, my recollection is that Armstrong immediately ran over to him and put the armband on him. Armstrong wasn’t subbed off until 76 minutes.

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Good point.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 18/12/2023 at 18:40, Saint_clark said:

It would be absolutely ridiculous to disrupt it now after bleating on for so long about needing to learn the system etc. 

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But we might get a better system.

Well, a man can hope.

 

[The Kraken]

  On 18/12/2023 at 18:43, Whitey Grandad said:

But we might get a better system.

Well, a man can hope.

 

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Also get more productivity, it was Stephens’ ball in to Mara that led to the penalty.

[Huffton]

  On 18/12/2023 at 09:46, Saint Fan CaM said:

Agreed, but RM couldn’t wait to get Stephens on the pitch on Saturday and we know who made way.

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Probably just good man management.We've got a busy few weeks ahead giving a key player as much rest as possible makes sense

[Tom & Gerry]

  On 18/12/2023 at 19:18, Huffton said:

Probably just good man management.We've got a busy few weeks ahead giving a key player as much rest as possible makes sense

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And to give his back up some game time after a long lay off.

[S-Clarke]

It's a great position to be in, but I love the partnership Bednarek and THB have formed. They understand each others games, they're both good on the ball and they're playing on their natrual sides. 

Jack is obviously captain and a good player at this level, but it's going to take a suspension or an injury for him to displace either of those regularly. (he may get a game or two over xmas for obvious reasons though)

[Dellyears]

  On 17/12/2023 at 18:15, the saint in winchester said:

I would have HB as first choice, Stephens and Bedders alternating. But conscious Stephens is our captain, so he may get the nod. Whichever way, just hope those 3 get regular games. As a result, we can probably let the Everton loanee return in January.

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Alternating? No thank you--recipe for disaster. We've got a settled pair let them stay settled.

[Saint Fan CaM]

  On 18/12/2023 at 19:52, Dellyears said:

Alternating? No thank you--recipe for disaster. We've got a settled pair let them stay settled.

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Absolutely this. While JS has his own attributes, the established pairing we’ve enjoyed for a good number of games should be retained except maybe for cup games.