Watford 1-1 Saints - Match Thread

[St Steve]

 

[Toussaint]

6 hours ago, farawaysaint said:

I mean I appreciate the manner of it was annoying but am I the only one happy with an away draw against a tough side? 

3 hour drive through traffic diversions, crap Wetherspoons, crap ground, crappy town, crap home fans, toothless crap performance, crap drive home. Thank god for Henry Weston’s vintage cider that provided some redemption for the day. 

[sfc4prem]

5 hours ago, Mixedkebab said:

2nd place and up into that corrupt cuntfest of a league to be spanked most weeks would be absolute wank. Now Saints probably cant win the Championship I want them to go up by winning the play offs or not at all. I am sick to fuck of Saints being the bridesmaid and having no trophies.

While I’m on one, Pochettino, Koeman and Puel were cunts not taking the cups/Europe seriously enough as that was our best chance since the mid 80’s (when the scousers fucked it up) to actually win something..

Better to wallow in the lower leagues without the tourist fans and Liverpool/Man U/Newcastle fans in the home ends, and have a higher win percentage per season, if we can’t go up by winning a fucking trophy 

 

Completely agree. How the fuck did we not win at least one cup in those years. And how was it Puel that got closest!??!?!

[Kenilworthy]

5 hours ago, Mixedkebab said:

2nd place and up into that corrupt cuntfest of a league to be spanked most weeks would be absolute wank. Now Saints probably cant win the Championship I want them to go up by winning the play offs or not at all. I am sick to fuck of Saints being the bridesmaid and having no trophies.

While I’m on one, Pochettino, Koeman and Puel were cunts not taking the cups/Europe seriously enough as that was our best chance since the mid 80’s (when the scousers fucked it up) to actually win something..

Better to wallow in the lower leagues without the tourist fans and Liverpool/Man U/Newcastle fans in the home ends, and have a higher win percentage per season, if we can’t go up by winning a fucking trophy 

 

The sad thing is that continuing in this league as we are is just an unsustainable dream. If we fail to go up the side will be picked apart and we will be stranded with no money, ending up like Stoke. I would far rather lose regularly in the Premier league than lose regularly in the Championship.

[Saint Fan CaM]

7 minutes ago, Kenilworthy said:

The sad thing is that continuing in this league as we are is just an unsustainable dream. If we fail to go up the side will be picked apart and we will be stranded with no money, ending up like Stoke. I would far rather lose regularly in the Premier league than lose regularly in the Championship.

While it’s probably true the side will be picked apart if we don’t go up, who actually would go? KWP…big loss, but anyone of the others are expendable in my opinion. Especially when you consider that our ‘super side’ was held to a draw by a pretty average Watford yesterday. So the second part of your assertion that we would start to lose regularly is a fallacy - we would continue to win some and lose a few more and become a mid to top table Championship club which based on investment is probably where we deserve to be.

Edited 10 December, 2023 by Saint Fan CaM

[david in sweden]

Back to yesterdays match, fellas  - as per thread.

An entertaining game between two well-matched sides, neither of whom showed the ultimate ability to win the game.

Yet another draw (like Rotherham and Huddersfield) who scored against the run of play from a chance shot outside of the box. 

Easy for many to blame Bazunu  I suppose   ..not sure I would, and would have given him M.o.M ..and a 9 from me aside from that, but

it's another two points lost because the rest of the side continued to show their inability to score a second goal and make the game safe.  

 

Once again I join others on here who point to the club's failure to get an experienced striker who can put away chances.

Thank goodness Adam Armstrong has been given the opportunity to show his mettle and practically scores out of nothing. 

Ché Adams has shown distain by not extending his contract , and his one point winning goal was his first in almost 3 months. 

Buying Ross Stewart may pay off...( in the long term, if / when fit) .. but I feel that his last minute " panic buy" came only after 

we failed to sell Adams, and then couldn't get him to extend his contract beyond next summer. 

 

Even an overweight, slow-moving  L1 striker ,who knows how to score regularly might have picked up a few more goals , but our persistence

in trying " to blood " Mara, (and occasionally Edozie)  is a Plan B that's just isn't working and we've run out of alternatives.  

We've all heard the stories of.. " how good they look in training " , but we need to see the proof on match days ...and it just isn't happening.   

I don't blame RM who has given us a squad capable of producing "promotion form",  and I'm not unhappy with the rest of the squad, but 

either get Onuachu back PDQ (?) ..or at least get in  a couple of  reasonably-experienced veterans who can still put the ball in the net, 

and help get us over the line in May..... and not fall short on goal difference.

 

 

Edited 10 December, 2023 by david in sweden

[CB Fry]

10 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

While it’s probably true the side will be picked apart if we don’t go up, who actually would go? KWP…big loss, but anyone of the others are expendable in my opinion. Especially when you consider that our ‘super side’ was held to a draw by a pretty average Watford yesterday. So the second part of your assertion that we would start to lose regularly is a fallacy - we would continue to win some and lose a few more and become a mid to top table Championship club which based on investment is probably where we deserve to be.

What even is that?

Norwich, Stoke, Swansea, Watford, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Coventry bumbling around sometimes threatening the play offs, sometimes League One, often just 11th-12th sludge.

No idea what you think we'd become.

[Ted Bates Statue]

6 hours ago, Mixedkebab said:

2nd place and up into that corrupt cuntfest of a league to be spanked most weeks would be absolute wank. Now Saints probably cant win the Championship I want them to go up by winning the play offs or not at all. I am sick to fuck of Saints being the bridesmaid and having no trophies.

 

Can't believe you've forgotten about our epic JPT win.

[Kenilworthy]

14 minutes ago, Ted Bates Statue said:

Can't believe you've forgotten about our epic JPT win.

This is a very pedantic point but we did get a trophy for second place in 2012.

[Challenger]

56 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

Back to yesterdays match, fellas  - as per thread.

An entertaining game between two well-matched sides, neither of whom showed the ultimate ability to win the game.

Yet another draw (like Rotherham and Huddersfield) who scored against the run of play from a chance shot outside of the box. 

Easy for many to blame Bazunu  I suppose   ..not sure I would, and would have given him M.o.M ..and a 9 from me aside from that, but

it's another two points lost because the rest of the side continued to show their inability to score a second goal and make the game safe.  

 

Once again I join others on here who point to the club's failure to get an experienced striker who can put away chances.

Thank goodness Adam Armstrong has been given the opportunity to show his mettle and practically scores out of nothing. 

Ché Adams has shown distain by not extending his contract , and his one point winning goal was his first in almost 3 months. 

Buying Ross Stewart may pay off...( in the long term, if / when fit) .. but I feel that his last minute " panic buy" came only after 

we failed to sell Adams, and then couldn't get him to extend his contract beyond next summer. 

 

Even an overweight, slow-moving  L1 striker ,who knows how to score regularly might have picked up a few more goals , but our persistence

in trying " to blood " Mara, (and occasionally Edozie)  is a Plan B that's just isn't working and we've run out of alternatives.  

We've all heard the stories of.. " how good they look in training " , but we need to see the proof on match days ...and it just isn't happening.   

I don't blame RM who has given us a squad capable of producing "promotion form",  and I'm not unhappy with the rest of the squad, but 

either get Onuachu back PDQ (?) ..or at least get in  a couple of  reasonably-experienced veterans who can still put the ball in the net, 

and help get us over the line in May..... and not fall short on goal difference.

 

 

Been one effective striker short for a while now, not expecting that to get resolved any time soon.

[StrangelyBrown]

8 hours ago, West end Saints said:

 

 

 

Obviously more goals would have meant more points, but the point I was trying to make (in response to someone saying we were dropping off) is that you are not doing much wrong, or need to change a lot if our results are recently the best in the division, which they have been since 23rd September when we last lost.

 

But yes, a free scoring centre forward, or Charlie / Stu would have gained more points to help recover from that bad spell, but the key thing is that spell is the problem, not so much where we are now. 

It's going to depend on how consistent teams can continue to be through the winter, with injuries etc. 

From my perspective the frustration is that we are dropping points we shouldn't drop simply because we don't turn our dominance into chances. While Russball seems to be working in a lot of ways a small adjustment to being braver in the final third could lead to more chances and more chances and should mean more goals. This has been plain to see for months now and yet we still recycle the ball rather than taking a risk often losing the ball in the process.

[Black Sea Saint]

Interesting that once again the opposition's goal scorer was someone who had just come on. It happened against Rotherham, too, if my memory serves me right (and it might not!). Almost as if we're not really paying attention to the changes opposition managers make.

The one thing for sure is that we're not scoring enough. Parts of our play are like last year, loads of possession around the opposition box but no end product. I think we'll rue the missed opportunity to sign Piroe. Martin knew him and it seemed like we were in pole position to get him. Instead he goes to a promotion rival and has scored 8 goals for them (one every two games). 

A goal scorer has to be our priority in January. Mara, Stewart and Adams are not going to get us those goals we need to put teams away.

Edited 10 December, 2023 by Black Sea Saint

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

Quote from RM: "The nature of the goal we concede is what's frustrating me the most. I think it's such a poor goal to concede, they smash one big ball up the middle of the pitch..."

Perhaps RM should try it once in while. We've got a goalie who is a fantastic distributor, we've got some fast forwards and now we've got a midfield that challenges for a ball. Mix it up. Be direct sometimes. There's nothing more frustrating than seeing us 10 yards from the opposition penalty area and then 20 seconds later Baz has the ball.

[Wade Garrett]

14 minutes ago, StrangelyBrown said:

From my perspective the frustration is that we are dropping points we shouldn't drop simply because we don't turn our dominance into chances. While Russball seems to be working in a lot of ways a small adjustment to being braver in the final third could lead to more chances and more chances and should mean more goals. This has been plain to see for months now and yet we still recycle the ball rather than taking a risk often losing the ball in the process.

Against Cardiff last week it wasn’t creating chances that was the problem.

Apart from Adam Armstrong we have no other natural finishers.  If we did, we would have a lot more points on the board.

Mara has been a huge waste of money.  move him on, and Adams who is running his contract down, if we can.
I would seriously go for Ings on loan in January.  He’ll get into double figures by the end of the season with us.

[east-stand-nic]

2 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

While it’s probably true the side will be picked apart if we don’t go up, who actually would go? KWP…big loss, but anyone of the others are expendable in my opinion. Especially when you consider that our ‘super side’ was held to a draw by a pretty average Watford yesterday. So the second part of your assertion that we would start to lose regularly is a fallacy - we would continue to win some and lose a few more and become a mid to top table Championship club which based on investment is probably where we deserve to be.

The problem is the manager and the style of play book. This squad, with any of the other top 6 managers would have more points on the board now and a better GD. We are better than we think, we are just not going to be able to show it under RM.

[Graffito]

A couple of thoughts.

Time wasting, if that’s what it was, seems like a poor strategy for a team that’s good at keeping the ball.

As well as picking apart Saints’ performance (this thread), sometimes you have to credit the opposition. The contrast between say the performance and result against Bristol City and yesterday’s performance and result - Watford did a better job than Bristol at limiting goal scoring opportunities.

For all that, poor defending cost us two points.

 

 

[StrangelyBrown]

1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

Against Cardiff last week it wasn’t creating chances that was the problem.

Apart from Adam Armstrong we have no other natural finishers.  If we did, we would have a lot more points on the board.

Mara has been a huge waste of money.  move him on, and Adams who is running his contract down, if we can.
I would seriously go for Ings on loan in January.  He’ll get into double figures by the end of the season with us.

Agree with you completely re natural finishers - if we had a couple of attacking players (as well as AA ) who got 10 or so goals apiece we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, with so few decent chances created it's difficult to know if the players could score goals or not.

Sadly from my perspective Cardiff isn't the norm - we seem to have a game like that every once in a while which adds to my frustration even more as it demonstrates we can make a decent number of chances.

I wouldn't bother with ings myself as he's made of glass, but I agree with the sentiment that we need someone who's proven.

[The Kraken]

Danny Ings has got 18 months left on a contract that pays him around £120k per week. He is obviously well out of favour at West Ham (on the bench today, and Moyes was talking this week about trying to get a striker in) but I simply cannot see any way that Saints get near to being able to get him, even on loan for a few months. Just completely unrealistic imo.

[Appy]

8 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Danny Ings has got 18 months left on a contract that pays him around £120k per week. He is obviously well out of favour at West Ham (on the bench today, and Moyes was talking this week about trying to get a striker in) but I simply cannot see any way that Saints get near to being able to get him, even on loan for a few months. Just completely unrealistic imo.

Also, replacing an injured Ross Stewart, with a bloke who can’t stay fit, seems counterproductive. 

[fanimal]

That Hearts striker Shanksands? Might as well go totally Scottish…

[derry]

We nearly won that, but I think the changes made late disrupted the organisation, helped by Mannings ability to play everywhere except left back. That bloody great acreage hole he leaves on our left side causes us more grief than anything else. Martin needs to wise up and get a decent natural proper left back or otherwise!!!!

Just over three weeks to the transfer window opens and Adams gets into the box and scores, his last goal just before the last window closed, maybe even the last time he was in the box.. I can see him getting a few goals in the next seven weeks or as long as he's here. He has been hopeless for three months but now he wakes up again. The sooner we replace him and Mara the stronger we'll be. It may be Adam's non playing has been noted and we may not be able to shift him on. I can only really see the bottom three or maybe Wolves even looking at him.

 

[Saint_clark]

2 hours ago, derry said:

We nearly won that, but I think the changes made late disrupted the organisation, helped by Mannings ability to play everywhere except left back. That bloody great acreage hole he leaves on our left side causes us more grief than anything else. Martin needs to wise up and get a decent natural proper left back or otherwise!!!!

Just over three weeks to the transfer window opens and Adams gets into the box and scores, his last goal just before the last window closed, maybe even the last time he was in the box.. I can see him getting a few goals in the next seven weeks or as long as he's here. He has been hopeless for three months but now he wakes up again. The sooner we replace him and Mara the stronger we'll be. It may be Adam's non playing has been noted and we may not be able to shift him on. I can only really see the bottom three or maybe Wolves even looking at him.

 

Doesn't even need to spend on a left back, just play Bree who was great there. Absolutely no reason for him to be dropped except Martins stubbornness shining through again. 

[notnowcato]

21 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Doesn't even need to spend on a left back, just play Bree who was great there. Absolutely no reason for him to be dropped except Martins stubbornness shining through again. 

Or Manning offers more going forwards. 

[Saint_clark]

36 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Or Manning offers more going forwards. 

Not enough more than Bree to justify the complete and utter liability he is defensively. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

15 hours ago, CB Fry said:

What even is that?

Norwich, Stoke, Swansea, Watford, Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Coventry bumbling around sometimes threatening the play offs, sometimes League One, often just 11th-12th sludge.

No idea what you think we'd become.

You’ve answered your own question there. If we don’t go up and our better players are pilfered we’d become one of the mid-table also rans in the Championship under RM’s managership. Unless there’s some decent investment of course, then it’s anyones guess.

[Nolan]

On 09/12/2023 at 23:01, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

3) We don't have a striker

4) ....

 

[notnowcato]

9 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Not enough more than Bree to justify the complete and utter liability he is defensively. 

hmmmm... over reaction?

[Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan]

On 10/12/2023 at 10:55, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

Quote from RM: "The nature of the goal we concede is what's frustrating me the most. I think it's such a poor goal to concede, they smash one big ball up the middle of the pitch..."

Perhaps RM should try it once in while. We've got a goalie who is a fantastic distributor, we've got some fast forwards and now we've got a midfield that challenges for a ball. Mix it up. Be direct sometimes. There's nothing more frustrating than seeing us 10 yards from the opposition penalty area and then 20 seconds later Baz has the ball.

Not only should we try it, how about we try and stop it too. Two similar goals have cost us 4 points now, 2 against Rotherham and 2 against Watford. Long balls up, not dealt with, and a shot from outside the box beats Bazunu because he's in no mans land in the box not able to make a routine save. Shouldn't happen more than once but he's let it. 

[Saint Garrett]

23 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Danny Ings has got 18 months left on a contract that pays him around £120k per week. He is obviously well out of favour at West Ham (on the bench today, and Moyes was talking this week about trying to get a striker in) but I simply cannot see any way that Saints get near to being able to get him, even on loan for a few months. Just completely unrealistic imo.

West Ham fans can't stand him, and really want rid of him. "Stealing a living". 

We know he struggled to play on his own up front. He played his best football when he had Adams doing a lot of the grind for him. I don't know how he would fit in here if he was to join on loan for the second half of the season, but I can certainly see him leaving West Ham in January.

[derry]

I'm not sure how many loans are allowed from one Premier club to a Championship club. Ince plus Downs would be two.

On another subject It's all well and good Bree becoming the regular left back, despite doing a decent job, because if KWP picks up an injury Bree is his natural cover. Manning couldn't play right back however he could be cover at left back either way we need a better natural left back. 

[Badger]

8 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

West Ham fans can't stand him, and really want rid of him. "Stealing a living". 

We know he struggled to play on his own up front. He played his best football when he had Adams doing a lot of the grind for him. I don't know how he would fit in here if he was to join on loan for the second half of the season, but I can certainly see him leaving West Ham in January.

But will RM look to play more than one up front ?
 

[davefizzy14]

Really frustrating that we couldn't go and get a couple more and put the game to bed. However it's a point and hopefully Che's goal (a really classy finish with his left foot, great cross from Fraser and lovely headed assist from Arma to Che) will give him a big lift in confidence and he can go a scoring run like he has done before anyone blaming Bazunu is plainly stupid as he's been superb recently (he played a part in the build up to our goal) and his view was obscured. He made a couple of brilliant saves. He was my MOTM. THB and Bednarek were very good too. Onto midweek now - COYR

Edited 11 December, 2023 by davefizzy14

[Saint Garrett]

42 minutes ago, Badger said:

But will RM look to play more than one up front ?
 

I think it’s slightly different in this league. And we regularly play 3 up front, sometimes more like 4 in attacking areas, would be interesting…

[Saint_clark]

31 minutes ago, davefizzy14 said:

However it's a point and hopefully Che's goal (a really classy finish with his left foot, 

Hopefully it fires him on but really? It was hit along the floor in the middle of the goal. His control leading up to it was very good and showed good awareness but the finish was the most basic finish you'll ever see in football. 

[StrangelyBrown]

7 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Hopefully it fires him on but really? It was hit along the floor in the middle of the goal. His control leading up to it was very good and showed good awareness but the finish was the most basic finish you'll ever see in football. 

He hit it straight at the keeper and the keeper dived out of the way - if we'd been on the receiving end of that and Baz had been in goal the meltdown on here would have been at a whole new level.

As you say. Good control - yes. Classy finish - I don't think so.

I'm sure there is a player in there somewhere, but Adams just hasn't ever been good enough for us and certainly isn't the efficient goal machine we need right now. Why anyone thinks he might fire on now when he's consistently proven otherwise is beyond me?

Edited 12 December, 2023 by StrangelyBrown
Damn you autocorrect