Systems do not win football matches. Players do.

[notnowcato]

42 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

It’s not really making things up, you chose those  words purely to belittle another posters pov. it’s speculation, supposition, conjecture, call it what you will, we all do it. if we took all speculation away from the forum and restricted ourselves to reporting facts, there wouldn’t be much left and what was left would be extremely dry.

It is making things up when you present opinion as fact. Reread the original post that I responded to. 

[Dman]

43 minutes ago, rooney said:

When we were in the Championship  before and playing under Nigel Adkins, I always felt we could win every game and was confident before ko.  I do not feel like that now. Quite happy to see the passing game after we are 2 goals or so up, but always feel on tenterhooks before we score now.

yeah, that's kind of how I see it. Go out and start fast, blow teams away in the first 20 or so minutes, like we did Leeds. We have the players to do it. Once the game is won, then keep the ball and tire your opponents. 

At the minute, we're simply not ruthless enough. Leicester on the other hand are. Which is why they currently sit top of the league unbeaten. 

[ErwinK1961]

1 hour ago, Long Shot said:

Sorry as usual you are golding the lily. Trying to make out the likes of Stephens and Bednarek have improved because of Martin is bullshit. Both players came back from their loan periods better players. Martin is making good players go backwards. Charles is a good example. Looked a good signing when he first arrived, now he looks awful. Holgate looks like he never played in the PL. I could go on. 
Martin is a poor manager with a poor record and had it not been for a flurry of late goals we would be in the lower half of the table. Get your head out of the sand. 

Bednarek came back from Villa, where he barely played (except losing at home to Stevenage) a better player?

Charles had a poor game against Preston (after a run out of the team), not sure that constitutes awful.

Also good to know that late goals don’t count. Can we use that the other way? If we exclude all the goals we’ve conceded  right before half time and in the 15 minutes after half time, we’d be amazing.

 

[Dman]

5 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

Bednarek came back from Villa, where he barely played (except losing at home to Stevenage) a better player?

Charles had a poor game against Preston (after a run out of the team), not sure that constitutes awful.

Also good to know that late goals don’t count. Can we use that the other way? If we exclude all the goals we’ve conceded  right before half time and in the 15 minutes after half time, we’d be amazing.

 

Its not that late goals don't count, its that its not sustainable to expect to score them every week. Its actually fairly freakish how many late goals we've already scored this season, which in fairness, is down to the system of keeping the ball and tiring the opponents all game. 

[Alanh]

1 hour ago, rooney said:

When we were in the Championship  before and playing under Nigel Adkins, I always felt we could win every game and was confident before ko.  I do not feel like that now. Quite happy to see the passing game after we are 2 goals or so up, but always feel on tenterhooks before we score now.

The reason you felt we could win every game in that season was because we had proven goalscorers who had the confidence from two pretty good seasons behind them in League 1.  At the moment we don't have a reliable goalscorer in the squad (and haven't had since Ings left), so we are trying to play a style of fotball that will get us points in the knowledge that we aren't likely to score many goals.

The system is nowhere near perfect because we are conceding too many, but putting away more of our chances would take pressure off the defence and give the whole team the confidence that they could outscore the opposition.  It would transform this team and allow it to live up to the idea that it's one of the best squads in the division.

[Long Shot]

1 hour ago, ErwinK1961 said:

Bednarek came back from Villa, where he barely played (except losing at home to Stevenage) a better player?

Charles had a poor game against Preston (after a run out of the team), not sure that constitutes awful.

Also good to know that late goals don’t count. Can we use that the other way? If we exclude all the goals we’ve conceded  right before half time and in the 15 minutes after half time, we’d be amazing.

 

You are twisting my words. Those late goals while welcome are papering over the cracks of some very ordinary and tedious performances. Some fans are so desperate to endorse Martin that they’ll manipulate all manner of stats to suit their argument. Going on the standard of our football, the mundane tactics, our defensive record and apathy of a large swathe of the fan base (see previous posts), I maintain we have managed find ourselves yet another manager incapable of making us anything other than mediocre. 

[Jack]

13 hours ago, egg said:

Yep. The thing is we knew what we were getting from having watched Swansea, and from what their fans said. These players, played to their strengths, and with purpose to their play rather than pointless keep ball, would do bloody well. There's no way we should be 10 points behind Ipswich. 

Exactly. If starving the opposition of possession meant keeping clean sheets and scoring enough goals to win most weeks then bring it on. Sadly we’re far from being good enough to achieve that but the manager won’t acknowledge it 

[malcolm waldron]

On 26/10/2023 at 10:28, notnowcato said:

In the last 2 or 3 games Sulemana has gotten to the byline in the oppos area and made 4 great cut backs without a striker on the end.  An instinctive striker like a Vardy would be lapping that kind of service up. Both our goals v Hull were from crosses or cut backs from the byline, it's clearly something we're trying to do and hopefully Stewart will be helping himself to.

Don't want to nit pick but are you American?!  Agree with the rest of your post btw.

[gio1saints]

I think the nub of it is that we are doing most of the right things most of the time.  

BUT we are not scoring enough plus we are still not as resilient in defending when we lose possession as we’d like. 
 

I think the plethora of yellow cards is testament to our defensive strategies not quite fully working yet. As is goals conceded obvs. 
 

I think our rubbish goal scoring from chances is another obvious factor.
 

There IS a lot of good though and very obvious significant improvement from last season - considering the turnover *- albeit lower opposition.  

* we lost our four best players - JWP joined WH, Oriol plays for Barca now (!) and Salisu and BK our two allegedly best CB’s both gone.
 

Add in we had no idea what forwards we’d have for the Sheff weds match and 12 games later we are in a play off place unbeaten in five. 

Lots to criticise but, let’s try to be fair, lots to commend Saints for as well. 

Edited 27 October, 2023 by gio1saints

[malcolm waldron]

On 26/10/2023 at 10:45, Elmore Saint said:

As cato mentions - a striker will help for those situations when Sulemana lights the burners and gets into good wide positions.

Everything else - you are spot on regarding our ponderous play. For a good few games now, I try and keep a mental tally of the number of opposition players between the ball and goal when we are in possession. We often gain possession with 6-8 in front of us, piss around it until all 11 of theirs are back in place and then piss around some more,  getting to 5-6 in-front (in most cases) before losing the ball / trying a long effort. This is not how I want to watch football, but with the turgid tippy-tippy shit, it occupies the rest of my overactive brain in the meantime.

Absolutely agree with this point.   I didn't go to the tactics evening but did RM explain why we appear to play in a style that allows the opposition to reset and line up in a low block before we arrive over the half way line?

[ErwinK1961]

34 minutes ago, Long Shot said:

You are twisting my words. Those late goals while welcome are papering over the cracks of some very ordinary and tedious performances. Some fans are so desperate to endorse Martin that they’ll manipulate all manner of stats to suit their argument. Going on the standard of our football, the mundane tactics, our defensive record and apathy of a large swathe of the fan base (see previous posts), I maintain we have managed find ourselves yet another manager incapable of making us anything other than mediocre. 

There are also fans that have been so against the appointment before he’d even walked in the building, that they find negativity in literally anything to prove their point.

I’m certainly not ‘desperate to endorse Martin’ - I’m on the fence still with him (I was very much in the out camp after the Leicester game, though alcohol induced rage played its part). I can see what he’s trying to do, he’s very open and honest, he seems to have created a bit of togetherness in the squad that’s been woefully lacking in recent years. I can also understand the reasoning behind the ‘style’ being implemented, we do need to get better with the ball though and the goals conceded at the moment is unsustainable. 

 

[sydney_saint]

Of course systems matter. Ange comes in- implements his system- and has a previously dejected set of players top of the league. Villa had no real system under Gerard. In come Emery, implements his style, and look at them now. Look at Brighton.

We brought in a manager whose system delivers mid table results. He's implemented it, and we are putting in mid table performances, helped with moments of genius that keep us above the RM zone. The issue isn't with systems, the issue is with the one we have got. It is delivering exactly what it says on the tin

Edited 27 October, 2023 by sydney_saint

[Colinjb]

56 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

Of course systems matter. Ange comes in- implements his system- and has a previously dejected set of players top of the league. Villa had no real system under Gerard. In come Emery, implements his style, and look at them now. Look at Brighton.

We brought in a manager whose system delivers mid table results. He's implemented it, and we are putting in mid table performances, helped with moments of genius that keep us above the RM zone. The issue isn't with systems, the issue is with the one we have got. It is delivering exactly what it says on the tin

Maybe not the best example to prove your point, Postecoglu very specifically has made clear he is not wedded to a single formation. 

https://metro.co.uk/2023/07/06/ange-postecoglou-on-tottenham-formation-and-harry-kane-19080299/

So, this proves the point that employing adaptable managers he can use the squads to their strengths, not forcing players to fit a preconceived, stubbornly dogmatic pattern, is better.

[tdmickey3]

1 hour ago, gio1saints said:

I think the nub of it is that we are doing most of the right things most of the time.  

BUT we are not scoring enough plus we are still not as resilient in defending when we lose possession as we’d like. 
 

I think the plethora of yellow cards is testament to our defensive strategies not quite fully working yet. As is goals conceded obvs. 
 

I think our rubbish goal scoring from chances is another obvious factor.
 

There IS a lot of good though and very obvious significant improvement from last season - considering the turnover *- albeit lower opposition.  

* we lost our four best players - JWP joined WH, Oriol plays for Barca now (!) and Salisu and BK our two allegedly best CB’s both gone.
 

Add in we had no idea what forwards we’d have for the Sheff weds match and 12 games later we are in a play off place unbeaten in five. 

Lots to criticise but, let’s try to be fair, lots to commend Saints for as well. 

You start by saying we are doing the right things right most of the time but this is nonsense and you have pointed out the most important things as failings yourself.

We dont score enough goals and we concede a lot of goals. 

Are you suggesting just keeping the ball despite the above is doing things right....... surely not?

Stop trying to defend the indefensible 

[saintant]

1 hour ago, sydney_saint said:

Of course systems matter. Ange comes in- implements his system- and has a previously dejected set of players top of the league. Villa had no real system under Gerard. In come Emery, implements his style, and look at them now. Look at Brighton.

We brought in a manager whose system delivers mid table results. He's implemented it, and we are putting in mid table performances, helped with moments of genius that keep us above the RM zone. The issue isn't with systems, the issue is with the one we have got. It is delivering exactly what it says on the tin

Spot on.

[sydney_saint]

3 hours ago, Colinjb said:

Maybe not the best example to prove your point, Postecoglu very specifically has made clear he is not wedded to a single formation. 

https://metro.co.uk/2023/07/06/ange-postecoglou-on-tottenham-formation-and-harry-kane-19080299/

So, this proves the point that employing adaptable managers he can use the squads to their strengths, not forcing players to fit a preconceived, stubbornly dogmatic pattern, is better.

Mate, I've been following ange's career for a very long time. It is a very much a system. He tweaks it based on the players available to him. For example the Celtic side played with its wingers more inverted. Spurs are playing with theirs closer to the forwards. But his system is always possession based, always about winning the ball high up the pitch, dominating every part of the pitch. Keeps the ball on the ground. And the fullbacks are always critical to the way he plays, mostly because he used to be one himself. He also signs players to fit that system. He doesn't sign the 'best' player available. He signs players that he knows will play the way he wants to. He did very much at Celtic. And you look at Spurs signings, none of the big clubs were sniffing round Maddison, but Ange knew Maddison would fit that role in the way he plays

It's tweaked for sure. But you aren't going to see him playing a Cont 5-3-2 

Edited 27 October, 2023 by sydney_saint

[Colinjb]

13 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

Mate, I've been following ange's career for a very long time. It is a very much a system. He tweaks it based on the players available to him. For example the Celtic side played with its wingers more inverted. Spurs are playing with theirs closer to the forwards. But his system is always possession based, always about winning the ball high up the pitch, dominating every part of the pitch. Keeps the ball on the ground. And the fullbacks are always critical to the way he plays, mostly because he used to be one himself. He also signs players to fit that system. He doesn't sign the 'best' player available. He signs players that he knows will play the way he wants to. He did very much at Celtic. And you look at Spurs signings, none of the big clubs were sniffing round Maddison, but Ange knew Maddison would fit that role in the way he plays

It's tweaked for sure. But you aren't going to see him playing a Cont 5-3-2 

And the bit in highlight indicates the clear advantage Ange has over RM. You have said it yourself, he has a way of doing things but his Celtic side and Spurs side are set up differently.

Edited 27 October, 2023 by Colinjb

[sydney_saint]

26 minutes ago, Colinjb said:

And the bit in highlight indicates the clear advantage Ange has over RM. You have said it yourself, he has a way of doing things but his Celtic side and Spurs side are set up differently.

Oh 1000%. To be honest I have wanted Ange at Saints for so many years. When our fans were talking about who should replace RH (before he was sacked) I mentioned Ange and got shot down, whilst at the same time others were bloody baying for Big Sam.

What I don't understand is why we are so rigid about RM system. Or at least why he is so rigid about it. It has never delivered significant results. If you look at the Swansea side from about a decade ago. They too had a possession-based football system with very neat passing that was put together by Martinez and Rogers. It delivered them promotion, and success in the premier league, and the foundations to win a trophy. So yeah, try and replicate that, it has worked! May not work for others, but at least it was proven. RM system has never been shown to work well. It doesn't 'fail' either. It is just mediocre, and when you are trying to get promoted you need more than mediocre. 

 

[trousers]

1 hour ago, sydney_saint said:

Oh 1000%. To be honest I have wanted Ange at Saints for so many years. When our fans were talking about who should replace RH (before he was sacked) I mentioned Ange and got shot down, whilst at the same time others were bloody baying for Big Sam.

What I don't understand is why we are so rigid about RM system. Or at least why he is so rigid about it. It has never delivered significant results. If you look at the Swansea side from about a decade ago. They too had a possession-based football system with very neat passing that was put together by Martinez and Rogers. It delivered them promotion, and success in the premier league, and the foundations to win a trophy. So yeah, try and replicate that, it has worked! May not work for others, but at least it was proven. RM system has never been shown to work well. It doesn't 'fail' either. It is just mediocre, and when you are trying to get promoted you need more than mediocre. 

 

Too much common sense in one post sir. Please scale back in future. Thanks 👍

[Saint_clark]

7 hours ago, gio1saints said:

I think the nub of it is that we are doing most of the right things most of the time.  

BUT we are not scoring enough plus we are still not as resilient in defending when we lose possession as we’d like. 

So not scoring enough and conceding too many, other than that we're doing all the right things.

[Convict Colony]

posted this article a while ago but always a good reminder on his tactics

"One potential concern with appointing Martin is his emphasis on the process and the playing style over results."

https://analyticsunited.co.uk/2023/05/20/what-to-expect-from-russell-martin/#:~:text=In terms of formation%2C Martin,push really high and wide.

Also another good article i just found

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/head-coach-analysis/russell-martin-at-southampton-2023-24-tactical-analysis-tactics

Edited 27 October, 2023 by Convict Colony

[gio1saints]

7 hours ago, tdmickey3 said:

You start by saying we are doing the right things right most of the time but this is nonsense and you have pointed out the most important things as failings yourself.

We dont score enough goals and we concede a lot of goals. 

Are you suggesting just keeping the ball despite the above is doing things right....... surely not?

Stop trying to defend the indefensible 

NO DEFEATS IN FIVE :

  “stop trying to defend the indefensible” 

You couldn’t make it up. You’ve got serious negativity issues I’m afraid if you call that indefensible. Just about sums you up though. 
 

 

Edited 27 October, 2023 by gio1saints

[Fabrice29]

8 hours ago, sydney_saint said:

Oh 1000%. To be honest I have wanted Ange at Saints for so many years. When our fans were talking about who should replace RH (before he was sacked) I mentioned Ange and got shot down, whilst at the same time others were bloody baying for Big Sam.

What I don't understand is why we are so rigid about RM system. Or at least why he is so rigid about it. It has never delivered significant results. If you look at the Swansea side from about a decade ago. They too had a possession-based football system with very neat passing that was put together by Martinez and Rogers. It delivered them promotion, and success in the premier league, and the foundations to win a trophy. So yeah, try and replicate that, it has worked! May not work for others, but at least it was proven. RM system has never been shown to work well. It doesn't 'fail' either. It is just mediocre, and when you are trying to get promoted you need more than mediocre. 

 

This idea that Martin wasn’t successful at Swansea because he didn’t get them promoted needs to stop.

Also we’ve literally tweaked formations/systems this season already so that narrative is wrong as well. 

[Dr Who?]

I saw this title and cannot get GLC out of my head, ‘Guns don’t kill people rabbits do’. Thanks.