Are the fans to Blame? (Split)

[Lord Duckhunter]

I reckon some of the fans need to take some responsibility. Has anyone noticed the poor run of results has started since CoT started giving us hints from the dressing room? It’s obviously not a happy camp & leaks won’t help team unity. 

Edited 25 September, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[hypochondriac]

On 24/09/2023 at 20:04, sydney_saint said:

No of course not. Win games and the fans get behind you. But if you aren't winning games, you need something else to cling onto. A track of record of success will help that. If you are losing matches and have no notable record, then of course you are going to be given less time. When we go cute with our appointments, we go wrong. When we bring in the obvious candidates, then things more often go better. Managers like Koeman, Ralph, Pardew, Adkins all had very strong pedigree and guess what, they were all bloody good. Nothing to do with the fans.

If you check our appointment record since league 1, I reckon we've seen the worrying signs or positive signs pretty quickly.

Pardew- looked good was good

Adkins- looked good and was fantastic

Poch - looked worrying and was good (which shows how fans can get behind you quickly if you deliver results and performances)

Koeman- looked good and was good

Puel- looked okay and was okay (still contested I know so I've gone down the middle)

Pellegrino-looked a disaster and was a disaster

Hughs- looked shit and was shit. Swansea imploding contributed more to us staying up

Ralph- looked good and was good

Jones- jesus christ. Looked shit and was shit

Selles- Shit all round

Martin- looked underwhelming.

I guess some would argue that the ones that have had fans support straight away have been most successful. But I more feel that the fans can smell a dud fast. I would just prefer the club stopped trying to unearth some magic unknown manager. If you wanna unearth young footballers and sell them for profit, then don't get too cute with the manager. They need a manager with a good track record to look up to.

 

Poch Was our most successful or second most successful manager since promotion. His appointment was universally disliked by the fans when he came in and had a giant mountain to climb and he made a difference immediately and got the fans on side straight away. It's a complete fallacy that the fans clapping the current situation like mindless seals would result in any other outcome other than what is occurring. 

Edited 27 September, 2023 by hypochondriac

[CB Fry]

15 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

The board structure simply isn’t functioning at SFC, you can see that from what will be 5 managers in 10 months shortly which tells us there’s a lack of rigour in the selection process eg Russell your teams have conceded far too many goals to win promotion, how will amend your approach to resolve that or, very costly duplicate mistakes in the transfer market eg Carrillo/Onachu. Or indeed wrongly extending the keeper’s contract Forster/McCarthy creating a further millstone around the club’s neck.

We’ve also seen one good transfer eg Tino turn into a whole strategy which is bonkers.

Yes, Ankerson was at Brentford and they have been successful but where did his role start and Giles’s stop? Because I’m getting the sense he was the ideas man and Giles the doer, because Ankerson’s ideas at SFC have been a disaster one and all.

All clubs make mistakes but we are seeing severe repeat ones like the examples above.

Add in the appalling handling of supporter relations eg block 1, £99 Kingsland seats, and not hard to see why with the debacle on the pitch since 2017 especially at home games, why getting back to the OP’s point why the fanbase is very alienated and really the blaming that comes from the club and small minority of dickheads on here is deluded.

Responding to your point, a steering group to the main board would be a critical friend to stop the club’s lurching from one crisis to another to add scrutiny from an industry perspective and challenge Rasmus et al in practical terms. SFC as an underperforming club at first team level is a very different prospect for Wilcox to Academy Director at City. The quotes at the time seem to indicate Martin was a Wilcox hire but there seems to be some doubt on that now.

The best option would be no Rasmus, but he’s heavily invested in SR so not an option. SR aren’t going to sack themselves and the club ain’t an attractive purchase right now without being transformed successfully if they are going to make money.

You will shoot the idea down I expect but something needs to happen to break the cycle of very poor decisions and lack of rigour. What I’m thinking is recently retired people - recently retired ex-managers, ex-players eg Steven Davis if his ACL finishes him off, ex-senior media. Not to discuss trivia like which beer is on the concourse but major decision-making and strategy.

They’ve sacked Semmens, they are about to sack a fourth manager, they sacked the back room staff for RH, they’ve turned over most of the players, Crocker’s left. And it is still getting worse. We all thought the squad would still be enough to beat the bottom sides and finish say 15th but Saturday blew that theory.

None of us has any faith they will appoint the strong character of a WGS, RK mould of Championship equivalent needed to turn the environment around and challenge these senior people on the bonkers ideas, and we can see Martin struggling in public just like we saw with Jones, Selles, Pellegrino and RH in the last few months. There’s just not the peer environment to bounce ideas off and support. If you don’t like my steering group idea, fair enough, but something is deeply wrong in the organisational fabric. 

If I'm honest I don't really understand what you really want apart from us to stop doing the wrong thing. All of us want that.

You say you want more football people but are praising Giles at Brentford who isnt/wasn't the "football person" he was a city trader type. Ankersen was the footballer.

Some committee of ex-players (Steven Davis) or "ex-media" (you mean Dave Merrington presumably) I don't see how that suddenly gets us making better decisions or signing better players. Who's in charge of that lot? Who's making the decisions? What club is being run like that?

So more football people involved because they will make better decisions just like Brentford whose Director of Football is barely a football person at all. Clear.

 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

If I'm honest I don't really understand what you really want apart from us to stop doing the wrong thing. All of us want that.

You say you want more football people but are praising Giles at Brentford who isnt/wasn't the "football person" he was a city trader type. Ankersen was the footballer.

Some committee of ex-players (Steven Davis) or "ex-media" (you mean Dave Merrington presumably) I don't see how that suddenly gets us making better decisions or signing better players. Who's in charge of that lot? Who's making the decisions? What club is being run like that?

So more football people involved because they will make better decisions just like Brentford whose Director of Football is barely a football person at all. Clear.

 

We just need Le tiss back in charge of the steering committee for the monkey chicken petting zoo and we are in business. 

[saintant]

5 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

If I'm honest I don't really understand what you really want apart from us to stop doing the wrong thing. All of us want that.

You say you want more football people but are praising Giles at Brentford who isnt/wasn't the "football person" he was a city trader type. Ankersen was the footballer.

Some committee of ex-players (Steven Davis) or "ex-media" (you mean Dave Merrington presumably) I don't see how that suddenly gets us making better decisions or signing better players. Who's in charge of that lot? Who's making the decisions? What club is being run like that?

So more football people involved because they will make better decisions just like Brentford whose Director of Football is barely a football person at all. Clear.

 

Giles was the brains behind the rise of Brentford not Ankersen.

[CB Fry]

7 hours ago, saintant said:

Giles was the brains behind the rise of Brentford not Ankersen.

Maybe, I don't really know. Just pointing out that I am reading simultaneously "we need more lots more football people involved in the decision making" and praising of someone at Brentford who demonstrably was not a football person at all. 

Edited 26 September, 2023 by CB Fry

[Miltonaggro]

19 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I reckon some of the fans need to take some responsibility. Has anyone noticed the poor run of results has started since CoT started giving us hints from the dressing room? It’s obviously not a happy camp & leaks won’t help team unity. 

The opposite is true, have a look at the history. During the transfer window when the CoT was kindly releasing exclusive snippets we were unbeaten. Towards the end of the window when the group were being called the circle of tits, the circle of twats, receiving death threats from our online ultras etc. some of the CoT SFC players and staff contacts took it very personally. So whilst not pinning all of the blame for our bad run of form and Russell’s implosion on a few hard of thinking posters on here, the reality is that it hasn’t helped. People needed to believe in the process but instead chose to adopt a mob mentality, once again our beloved club let down by a few gobby dinlos. 

[Saint86]

21 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Poch Was our most successful or second most successful manager since promotion. He was universally disliked by the fans when he came in and had a giant mountain to climb and he made a difference immediately and got the fans on side straight away. It's a complete fallacy that the fans clapping the current situation like mindless seals would result in any other outcome other than what is occurring. 

He wasn't universally disliked by the fans, that feels like quite a rewriting in my mind. People were angry, hurt, and upset by the Adkins sacking - which was mainly aimed at Cortese - and ultimately we may not have liked it, but Cortese's decision proved to be a good one / justified.

Re poch, most fans looked at his record/reputation and the quotes from Pep etc in spain, and they were fairly open minded. I remember going to that everton game (which was bloody freezing), open to seeing how we did - and straight away it was a solid start. At no point was i, or any saints fan i knew, against poch - we hadn't had a good start (i think Adkins had turned it around and would have kept us up), but the decision was made and it wasn't poch's fault.

The difference is, we haven't had a managerial appointment of that level since SR have been in. They've not hired a single manager with evidence of success at an appropriate level - or success full stop in the case of Selles and Martin. What decisions have SR made that anyone can say is a justified success?

Edited 26 September, 2023 by Saint86

[Dman]

In answer to the thread title.. I actually think its six of one, half a dozen of the other. 

I think the biggest issue is that we failed to capitalise on a 'golden period', by arrogance, negligence and lack of ambition by the board room. I don't think anyone is naive enough to expect the club to get it right every time - but Ralph aside, we've got it wrong every time. The strategy from the top has been completely wrong - we've tried to be smart and run everything on a budget and its come back to bite us on the arse. 

As a fan base, in the main, we've had to endure some real shit over the past 4/5 (maybe even longer) years. The reality is, we over achieved and were spoilt in years under Adkins, Poch, Koeman, Puel (to a degree) and in parts of Ralph's time. In reality, we're a bottom half PL club who more often than not will lose more than we win. 

Because of the above, things have became ridiculously toxic - The fans don't trust the players and board, the players probably hate playing in front of the fans, and I think the fans themselves are probably split. 

Booing, groaning and general negative atmosphere clearly doesn't help and creates anxiety in the squad. In that sense, they're (the fans) kinda to blame. A lot of our fan base are a bunch of complete morons who are "get it forward" merchants and cannot see the bigger picture. 

That being said, I don't fully blame them - At the very least you expect 100% effort and commitment and I'm not sure we've seen that for at least the past 2 years. Player power has been allowed to ruin the club due to weak / absent management (Sacking Puel because of this was a dangerous precedent in hindsight). Much like Puel, they gave up under Ralph - probably because he wouldn't put up with their half arsed efforts. 

So, in short, I think the fans have to take a proportion of the blame - We hounded Puel out - as do the players, but the main blame needs to live with the past 2-3 sets of board members. Lack of any clear strategy (high press of Ralph, to Defensive long ball of Jones, to Possession of Martin), Stupid recruitment and failure to fill obvious voids in the squad.

At this point, it really feels like we need a nonsense old school type to come in and basically say to the players - Go out there, do the basics, fight, give your all and when you're successful stick 2 fingers up to those idiots who've boo'd you etc. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

He wasn't universally disliked by the fans, that feels like quite a rewriting in my mind. People were angry, hurt, and upset by the Adkins sacking - which was mainly aimed at Cortese - and ultimately we may not have liked it, but Cortese's decision proved to be a good one / justified.

Re poch, most fans looked at his record/reputation and the quotes from Pep etc in spain, and they were fairly open minded. I remember going to that everton game (which was bloody freezing), open to seeing how we did - and straight away it was a solid start. At no point was i, or any saints fan i knew, against poch - we hadn't had a good start (i think Adkins had turned it around and would have kept us up), but the decision was made and it wasn't poch's fault.

The difference is, we haven't had a managerial appointment of that level since SR have been in. They've not hired a single manager with evidence of success at an appropriate level - or success full stop in the case of Selles and Martin. What decisions have SR made that anyone can say is a justified success?

Must remember things differently. Everyone I spoke to was outraged that Adkins had been discarded. The attitude was that Adkins was a legend and to get rid in the manner we did felt cruel and unfair. Quickly forgotten of course once Poch showed his quality. 

[Saint86]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Must remember things differently. Everyone I spoke to was outraged that Adkins had been discarded. The attitude was that Adkins was a legend and to get rid in the manner we did felt cruel and unfair. Quickly forgotten of course once Poch showed his quality. 

Well we all exist within our own supporter groups so may be that yours just hated Poch at the start 😅. But I do agree re adkins, i think there was basically universal discontent and unhappiness about his sacking. But tbf, Cortese made that call and he took the heat (which he didn't care about one iota i don't think) - i don't think the fans blamed Poch for it? - Ultimately Cortese had made his mind up and was going to sack Adkins regardless of whether Poch took the job or someone else 🤷‍♂️. Oh for a bit of Don Cortese's ruthless ambition compared to now.

Edited 26 September, 2023 by Saint86

[beatlesaint]

I think to a degree hoisting blame on the fans is an easy get out clause. Fans have witnessed basically 3 years of utter shite, ive got to the stage where, even though i renewed my season ticket in blind hope as much as anything, I'm looking for an excuse every week not to go and put myself through another 90 minutes of hell. 

The argument that the players feel more pressure at home kind of goes out the window when they conspire to let in 5 at Sunderland......you dont get much further away from St. Mary's than that then back it up with defeat at bottom club Middlesbro'

I think a large element of the fanbase have been very patient, its a lot of money people pay out for no pleasure or reward.  

[hypochondriac]

36 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Well we all exist within our own supporter groups so may be that yours just hated Poch at the start 😅. But I do agree re adkins, i think there was basically universal discontent and unhappiness about his sacking. But tbf, Cortese made that call and he took the heat (which he didn't care about one iota i don't think) - i don't think the fans blamed Poch for it? - Ultimately Cortese had made his mind up and was going to sack Adkins regardless of whether Poch took the job or someone else 🤷‍♂️. Oh for a bit of Don Cortese's ruthless ambition compared

You can imagine had poch started averagely or poor he would have been given sort shrift from the supporters who wouldn't have patience given he'd replaced a fan favourite. The pressure was on him from the start imo and he hit the ground running which is what he had to do to get all the fans onside and forget Adkins. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

57 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

I think to a degree hoisting blame on the fans is an easy get out clause. Fans have witnessed basically 3 years of utter shite, ive got to the stage where, even though i renewed my season ticket in blind hope as much as anything, I'm looking for an excuse every week not to go and put myself through another 90 minutes of hell. 

The argument that the players feel more pressure at home kind of goes out the window when they conspire to let in 5 at Sunderland......you dont get much further away from St. Mary's than that then back it up with defeat at bottom club Middlesbro'

I think a large element of the fanbase have been very patient, its a lot of money people pay out for no pleasure or reward.  

I wrote on another thread that going to St Mary's is an absolute chore at the moment. I can honestly say I don't enjoy it one bit. I never ever thought I would say that about my club. How can it have got so bad that fans who have been going quite often for 30 plus years, are feeling like this. I probably only go at the moment because my lad still enjoys it, but how long will it be before his generation feels like this? There are enough kids wearing City or United shirts around town as it is. If they keep serving up this shit, there's going to be a whole generation of kids who won't bother with their hometown team.

[Gloucester Saint]

18 hours ago, CB Fry said:

If I'm honest I don't really understand what you really want apart from us to stop doing the wrong thing. All of us want that.

You say you want more football people but are praising Giles at Brentford who isnt/wasn't the "football person" he was a city trader type. Ankersen was the footballer.

Some committee of ex-players (Steven Davis) or "ex-media" (you mean Dave Merrington presumably) I don't see how that suddenly gets us making better decisions or signing better players. Who's in charge of that lot? Who's making the decisions? What club is being run like that?

So more football people involved because they will make better decisions just like Brentford whose Director of Football is barely a football person at all. Clear.

 

An advisory aspect, which would be what it was, may help the owners and SR understand better what works in the division/context the club is in at given time. Rasmus should know but clearly didn’t. A philosophy-driven Director like him has probably appointed a philosophy-driven manager and it’s a fucking disaster. Wilcox’s quotes but Martin has Rasmus’s thumbprints all over it. A recruitment process needs to flush out why Swansea and MK leaked like a sieve. That’s a tactical and training ground question. 

Wilcox and ultimately Dragan are making the calls because the latter signs the cheques. Wilcox chairs it. The ex-manager doesn’t have to be ex-Saints, could be somebody who likes offering advice and being involved in the industry but doesn’t want to go down the pundit route. The advice phase doesn’t have be long-term but until the club has stabilised and there’s some depth of experience hired at the top of it and Rasmus’s nose kept out. The managers come across as increasingly bewildered and lost because there’s seemingly a lack of options to bounce things off - RH, NJ, Pellegrino, Selles and now Martin. Some of them looked on the verge of a nervous breakdown frankly, especially Pellegrino, Jones and now Martin. 

We’ve had six years of wholly appalling decision-making bar a couple of transfers making money, this is Hotel Inspector territory because the business is failing badly with no clear way out other than signing more 19 year olds from City/Chelsea because that’s what they did with Tino and Lavia. We’ve already wasted the first season of parachute payments on more left field experiments. The board structure at the club isn’t working because it should have stopped Jones, Martin (if the recruitment had drilled down into the goals against) and we might have avoid signing a window full of lightweights in the Championship with some expertise on board. 

The club hierarchy has been so complacent that I’m sure they think it’s all bad luck and the fans should sing OWTS more and it’s all OK. 

I don’t want the club to run like this either by the way, any more than I wanted it in administration in 2009. But it’s won what, 5 league games all year? It’s supporting the football equivalent of Wilko PLC the way it’s going. 

 

[Turkish]

Illingworth speaks on behalf of all saints fans as he thinks we are

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/southampton/news/60936/will-russell-martin-be-the-7th-manager-in-a-row-hounded-out-of-southampton

[trousers]

20 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Illingworth speaks on behalf of all saints fans as he thinks we are

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/southampton/news/60936/will-russell-martin-be-the-7th-manager-in-a-row-hounded-out-of-southampton

[Dusic]

At the most basic level, as it exists right now:

- Do our fans really support the team at hoke and make it difficult for the away team? No

- Is there an advantage to playing at home? No

- Does the atmosphere in the ground generally help the home team or the away team more? Away team

Various, undeniable reasons for this, but that is the unfortunate truth.

Edited 26 September, 2023 by Dusic

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, Dusic said:

At the most basic level, as it exists right now:

- Do our fans really support the team? No

- Is there an advantage to playing at home? No

- Does the atmosphere in the ground generally help the home team or the away team more? Away team

Various, undeniable reasons for this, but that is the unfortunate truth.

If we hadn't been losing at home, every week, for the last 4 seasons then I'm sure the atmosphere would be better.

We're ready to get behind a team, they just seem incapable of showing anything.

[modern matron]

34 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Illingworth speaks on behalf of all saints fans as he thinks we are

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/southampton/news/60936/will-russell-martin-be-the-7th-manager-in-a-row-hounded-out-of-southampton

You certainly don’t! 😂😂😂

[modern matron]

14 minutes ago, trousers said:

Embarrassing! 😂😂😂

[trousers]

32 minutes ago, Dusic said:

At the most basic level, as it exists right now:

- Do our fans really support the team at hoke and make it difficult for the away team? No

- Is there an advantage to playing at home? No

- Does the atmosphere in the ground generally help the home team or the away team more? Away team

Various, undeniable reasons for this, but that is the unfortunate truth.

 

[Saint Gifford]

At the time I thought it really harsh to dispense with Adkins, he was a fantastic manager at the time.

The battle between us and Reading. ( how ironic Selles is now there if he still is, haven’t checked tbf)

I’ve been shot down before, but the Marcus/Nicola period of SFC history has to be with out doubt one of the best. 
 

I would take Cortese back in a heart beat, over this lot. At least he instilled as he quoted, a corporate mentality within the club which ultimately transferred to the pitch. (Imo).

I mentioned in another post, that I hope that at some point Katrina and her advisors or the family look to protect their investment not only financially but part of her fathers legacy.
 

I’m only guessing but it must be why she is still keeping a small ownership in the club. I hope she does start to question where we are going. 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, modern matron said:

You certainly don’t! 😂😂😂

No I don’t. I think Puel should have got longer. Hassenhuttl it had come to a natural end the close of the season before he left, no one hounded him out. The rest were crap and deserved the sack. 
 

martin needs to sort it out sharpish before he goes the same way. He got a squad which should be challenging for the title but we’ve lost more games in the last 4 than Burnley lost all last season, have the worst defensive record in the league and have been fairly fortunate in the points we have got.

The bigger picture is we’ve had more managers than home wins the last 12 months, we’ve probably got one of the worst home records in Europe over the last 5 years. It’s no wonder the fans are pissed off, we’ve every right to be

Edited 26 September, 2023 by Turkish

[SNSUN]

2 hours ago, trousers said:

 😁

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

9 hours ago, Turkish said:

Illingworth speaks on behalf of all saints fans as he thinks we are

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/southampton/news/60936/will-russell-martin-be-the-7th-manager-in-a-row-hounded-out-of-southampton

I've held a bit of respect for that fella in the past, didn't always agree with what he said but at least he was willing to put himself in the firing line when supporters were being mugged off. But for someone who used to rally fans against the club hierarchy when needed, he's been little more than a club puppet post-Cortese, who he clearly despised.

I have a glance on the UI occasionally and NI is often banging on about his beloved Liverpool as much as having a pop at Saints fans, I guess defeat after defeat doesn't hurt so much when you've also got the scousers as a distraction. I think he likes to chuck a few controversial topics out there (in a TalkSport-stylee) to entice more traffic onto his website but he's a bit too quick to blame the fans these days.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

I've held a bit of respect for that fella in the past, didn't always agree with what he said but at least he was willing to put himself in the firing line when supporters were being mugged off. But for someone who used to rally fans against the club hierarchy when needed, he's been little more than a club puppet post-Cortese, who he clearly despised.

I have a glance on the UI occasionally and NI is often banging on about his beloved Liverpool as much as having a pop at Saints fans, I guess defeat after defeat doesn't hurt so much when you've also got the scousers as a distraction. I think he likes to chuck a few controversial topics out there (in a TalkSport-stylee) to entice more traffic onto his website but he's a bit too quick to blame the fans these days.

I will always have a lot of respect from Nick as he did a lot for the club in the 90s and 00s. He hated Cortese with good reason, for both club and personal reasons which I won’t go into. During our run back to the premier league which for many fans was a great period  he barely had a good word to say. I know it was clouded by some other issues but even then what was a great time there was nothing but negativity. There were some rather strange articles about on TUI, I remember a game in the championship where we were flying at the top of the table, playing some great stuff and had just won a home game easily scoring 4 goals and all he did was criticise the club for the lack of advertising board sales around the pitch. 

 

Now when we’re are shit and have been shit for years the mantra is completely flipped. The club are doing their best, the fans need to stop moaning, like you say almost like a mouth piece for the club. I hope it’s not click bate but I can’t think of any other reason to express such polar opposite views to what is actually going on. 

Edited 27 September, 2023 by Turkish

[JRM]

10 hours ago, trousers said:

 

I can help you with that. The bad performances came before the bad atmosphere. 

Wasn't it 6 home games in a row without scoring towards the end of Puels reign? 

[beatlesaint]

12 hours ago, Turkish said:

Illingworth speaks on behalf of all saints fans as he thinks we are

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/southampton/news/60936/will-russell-martin-be-the-7th-manager-in-a-row-hounded-out-of-southampton

He's always been a bit of a strange one for me. When things are going well, as someone else has said, he finds things to criticise yet when its awful, like now, he'll stick up for the club !! 

He's still trying to be relevant among the fanbase but hes not getting it. His day has gone, he was ok with the McMillan/Chorley combo backing him when revolution was in the air but now ? His articles are long winded and say very little in a lot of words.

[revolution saint]

12 hours ago, Dusic said:

At the most basic level, as it exists right now:

- Do our fans really support the team at hoke and make it difficult for the away team? No

- Is there an advantage to playing at home? No

- Does the atmosphere in the ground generally help the home team or the away team more? Away team

Various, undeniable reasons for this, but that is the unfortunate truth.

Reading some of the stuff here (not just you), you could almost be forgiven for thinking that the atmosphere in St Mary's is a toxic, hate filled cauldron and Martin needs a pitchfork to get the players out on the pitch.  In my experience, that's simply not the case.

If anything, we've been fairly apathetic to what's been pretty poor performances but, generally speaking, I think the crowd has been mostly positive.  First two games against Norwich and QPR I thought the atmosphere was really good.  Even against Ipswich in the second half there were attempts to get some chants going so I don't think it's that bad.  I think we've all been to games where the atmosphere is toxic and where players have been almost universally booed from all four corners.  We're not there yet and the manager certainly hasn't been subjected to any of that.  Sure, there's been some grumblings and moans but this isn't Saints fans being uniquely negative - it's the kind of thing that happens everywhere.

You'd think if we applied the logic of fans disgruntlement affecting team performance then we should have cruised to an easy win after taking the lead against 'Boro.  It wasn't anything to do with fans when we went up to Sunderland either.

Frankly, this whole fans thing is a deflection tactic from Russell Martin.  If we carry on in the same vein then he may have a point but it'll have been of his own making rather than anything else. 

[saintant]

46 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

Reading some of the stuff here (not just you), you could almost be forgiven for thinking that the atmosphere in St Mary's is a toxic, hate filled cauldron and Martin needs a pitchfork to get the players out on the pitch.  In my experience, that's simply not the case.

If anything, we've been fairly apathetic to what's been pretty poor performances but, generally speaking, I think the crowd has been mostly positive.  First two games against Norwich and QPR I thought the atmosphere was really good.  Even against Ipswich in the second half there were attempts to get some chants going so I don't think it's that bad.  I think we've all been to games where the atmosphere is toxic and where players have been almost universally booed from all four corners.  We're not there yet and the manager certainly hasn't been subjected to any of that.  Sure, there's been some grumblings and moans but this isn't Saints fans being uniquely negative - it's the kind of thing that happens everywhere.

You'd think if we applied the logic of fans disgruntlement affecting team performance then we should have cruised to an easy win after taking the lead against 'Boro.  It wasn't anything to do with fans when we went up to Sunderland either.

Frankly, this whole fans thing is a deflection tactic from Russell Martin.  If we carry on in the same vein then he may have a point but it'll have been of his own making rather than anything else. 

Lots of sense in this post.

[Fan The Flames]

14 hours ago, Dusic said:

At the most basic level, as it exists right now:

- Do our fans really support the team at hoke and make it difficult for the away team? No

- Is there an advantage to playing at home? No

- Does the atmosphere in the ground generally help the home team or the away team more? Away team

Various, undeniable reasons for this, but that is the unfortunate truth.

At the beginning of the season the atmosphere was superb, the fans had a real buzz back. Then Sunderland, Leicester, Ipswich, Middlesbrough happened and has killed it.

[miserableoldgit]

22 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

I wrote on another thread that going to St Mary's is an absolute chore at the moment. I can honestly say I don't enjoy it one bit. I never ever thought I would say that about my club. How can it have got so bad that fans who have been going quite often for 30 plus years, are feeling like this. I probably only go at the moment because my lad still enjoys it, but how long will it be before his generation feels like this? There are enough kids wearing City or United shirts around town as it is. If they keep serving up this shit, there's going to be a whole generation of kids who won't bother with their hometown team.

I have been going for around 65 years and had a ST every year since 1975, and I am finding it a chore to go, especially as most games seem to be on TV. Very sad.....

[Fitzhugh Fella]

14 hours ago, Turkish said:

Illingworth speaks on behalf of all saints fans as he thinks we are

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/southampton/news/60936/will-russell-martin-be-the-7th-manager-in-a-row-hounded-out-of-southampton

He really has lost the plot. If I didn't know better I would reckon he's taken a bung from the club.

[littledavewatson]

Fans are absolutely not to blame, but I'd argue there's a need for patience. 

At some point, there had to be a revolution with regards to our long-term plan and this summer has seen a huge churn to everything on the pitch and off the pitch and it's been coming for a while. I was pleasantly surprised with our start to the season, and have been unpleasantly surprised by our fall since but I think the inconsistency was inevitable, especially when you factor in key injuries and our transfer window activity going to the last day. It's disappointing when you compare to another relegated side in Leicester, but looking at the bigger picture their long term strategy is still along the same lines but with a new face at the helm. Ours has been flipped upside-down.

Probably in the minority but I'd be far more concerned if in the majority of games we were being battered and played off the park, but I don't think we are. It's individual mistakes and missed chances, if that can change then I think the crowd changes almost instantly. But it has to start clicking sooner rather than later.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

“Hounded our the club”, fuck me, what a drama queen. Criticised by a majority of the supporters is not hounding somebody out of the club. Branfoot probably was, and only Jones has come anywhere that level of match day clog since. The others weren’t fucking hounded out, anymore than this bloke will be. 
 

Nowadays you’re not “hounded out” the  Nods just stop clapping you. That’s about as hostile as it gets. 

[miserableoldgit]

Nobody hounded Koeman or Poch out.......I wonder why? Puel is a difficult one. results-wise OK but that season was the only season ever that I couldn't be asked to stay for the end of season "lap of honour".....which say's something.....not sure what!

[Charlie Wayman]

On 25/09/2023 at 12:57, hypochondriac said:

Poch Was our most successful or second most successful manager since promotion. He was universally disliked by the fans when he came in and had a giant mountain to climb and he made a difference immediately and got the fans on side straight away. It's a complete fallacy that the fans clapping the current situation like mindless seals would result in any other outcome other than what is occurring. 

That simply is not true. Who disliked him? People disliked the way that Nigel Adkins had been treated but there was no animosity towards Maurizio, just the opposite in fact.

[miserableoldgit]

4 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

That simply is not true. Who disliked him? People disliked the way that Nigel Adkins had been treated but there was no animosity towards Maurizio, just the opposite in fact.

You and I are both old enough to know that facts never get in the way of a good moan.....

[Toussaint]

1 hour ago, littledavewatson said:

Fans are absolutely not to blame, but I'd argue there's a need for patience. 

At some point, there had to be a revolution with regards to our long-term plan and this summer has seen a huge churn to everything on the pitch and off the pitch and it's been coming for a while. I was pleasantly surprised with our start to the season, and have been unpleasantly surprised by our fall since but I think the inconsistency was inevitable, especially when you factor in key injuries and our transfer window activity going to the last day. It's disappointing when you compare to another relegated side in Leicester, but looking at the bigger picture their long term strategy is still along the same lines but with a new face at the helm. Ours has been flipped upside-down.

Probably in the minority but I'd be far more concerned if in the majority of games we were being battered and played off the park, but I don't think we are. It's individual mistakes and missed chances, if that can change then I think the crowd changes almost instantly. But it has to start clicking sooner rather than later.

 

I think we would have been OK with inconsistency, but this isn't that,  we have lost 4 straight, pretty consistent, possibly 5 straight by Saturday then Stoke away. I'd refer to it as a sharp downturn, with no perc7ebtable light at the end of the tunnel.

[Chez]

2 hours ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

He really has lost the plot. If I didn't know better I would reckon he's taken a bung from the club.

Jesus christ. What a load of bollocks he has written there. How anyone can suggest managers like Pellegrini, Hughes, Ralph and Selles were "hounded out" by Saints fans is beyond me. They were sacked because they were not getting results. Pure and simple. 

If the club is getting its consensus of opinion from twitter, and then making decisions about a manager's employment based on that, then they are fucking mental. They aren't. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Charlie Wayman said:

That simply is not true. Who disliked him? People disliked the way that Nigel Adkins had been treated but there was no animosity towards Maurizio, just the opposite in fact.

His appointment was universally disliked. Coukd have phrased it better. I don't remember any support for sacking adkins and appointing poch. 

[Dman]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

His appointment was universally disliked. Coukd have phrased it better. I don't remember any support for sacking adkins and appointing poch. 

yep - IIRC there was talk of waving white hankies at the Everton game 😂😂

I'll be honest, I was pissed off at the time. How wrong was I. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Dman said:

yep - IIRC there was talk of waving white hankies at the Everton game 😂😂

I'll be honest, I was pissed off at the time. How wrong was I. 

I was massively annoyed. The point is the knives woukd have been out for poch if he hasn't succeeded and shown how good he was straight away and he did! Koeman also showed how good he was almost straight away. It's normally quite clear if a manager is going to succeed or not. Maybe Martin will go against the grain and end up being a success? If he is going to do that (and I would like him to as he seems like a good bloke) the he will need to turn it round in the next three or four games or the situation will become unsalvagable. 

[ImproveOurAtmosphere]

‘Are the fans to blame?’

No. They definitely aren’t. 
 

However, we can help the team turn it around by not getting on their backs after the first misplaced pass and instead, offer encouragement. Harder said than don’t. Anyone who supports in this way should try out the back of block 15 👍
 

Long old season. UTS.

[Long Shot]

4 hours ago, littledavewatson said:

Fans are absolutely not to blame, but I'd argue there's a need for patience. 

At some point, there had to be a revolution with regards to our long-term plan and this summer has seen a huge churn to everything on the pitch and off the pitch and it's been coming for a while. I was pleasantly surprised with our start to the season, and have been unpleasantly surprised by our fall since but I think the inconsistency was inevitable, especially when you factor in key injuries and our transfer window activity going to the last day. It's disappointing when you compare to another relegated side in Leicester, but looking at the bigger picture their long term strategy is still along the same lines but with a new face at the helm. Ours has been flipped upside-down.

Probably in the minority but I'd be far more concerned if in the majority of games we were being battered and played off the park, but I don't think we are. It's individual mistakes and missed chances, if that can change then I think the crowd changes almost instantly. But it has to start clicking sooner rather than later.

 

Disagree slightly. Yes individual errors are one reason for our predicament but the last four games have also all shown some deeper reasons to be worried. On Saturday for instance there was an utter lack of urgency and intensity. There was a lack of cohesion and even desire. We ultimately lost to a poor side having gone one up. 
The Sunderland game was one of the worst ever. A capitulation. The next match we lasted 21 seconds and then indulged in some reckless Keystone Cops defending straight from the school playground. Ipswich was a good chance to make amends but we failed miserably hardly laying a glove on them. Yes we have lost four games on the bounce before but I can’t remember when the four games have been so inept. Not exactly battered but not far off it. 
And then we have the deterioration in the standard and sense of the manager’s post match interviews. He appears to be losing his grip and composure. 
I thought the reaction of the fans at the Riverside at the final whistle was revealing. The away support are usually the last to turn but on Saturday they were furious and rebuffed Martin’s overtures. 
All this adds up to there being a lot more amiss than players making mistakes, although of course that doesn’t help. 

[Lallana's Left Peg]

You just get the feeling that we may be trying to change too much at once and completely mess up our chances of promotion.  I understood it would be a process.  I understood there was a lot of mentality to change as well.  I'm fine with individual errors when they are trying to change what they do and it's alien to some players.

 

I really struggle with a group of players who are paid at the top end of this division showing meekness, lethargy and any sort of lack of cohesion which are all independent of the above.  And, for that, the Manager is responsible.  He will live and die by his beliefs and I respect that, but it doesn't matter what your beliefs are if your players apply that sort of attitude, and attitude is a reflection of the Manager (or their attitude towards the manager).

 

The fans aren't to blame for having standards.  Standards the club has failed to uphold for a few years now.  There was plenty of support for the team on Saturday, but as the game went on the away end turned because it seemed the only people in that stadium who wanted to do something about losing were all sat in the stands and not on the pitch.  That's unacceptable and our attacking play was fraudulent. 

 

EDIT: KWP tried to do something about it.  No-one else. And he did something about it by running at players and dribbling, which is off-script for Martin.

Edited 27 September, 2023 by Lallana's Left Peg

[Turkish]

On 25/09/2023 at 12:43, Lord Duckhunter said:

I reckon some of the fans need to take some responsibility. Has anyone noticed the poor run of results has started since CoT started giving us hints from the dressing room? It’s obviously not a happy camp & leaks won’t help team unity. 

I think you'll find the poor run of results started when the CoT stopped giving hints from the dressing room, just as the transfer window slammed shut. Make of that what you will

Edited 27 September, 2023 by Turkish

[HarvSFC]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I was massively annoyed. The point is the knives woukd have been out for poch if he hasn't succeeded and shown how good he was straight away and he did! Koeman also showed how good he was almost straight away. It's normally quite clear if a manager is going to succeed or not. Maybe Martin will go against the grain and end up being a success? If he is going to do that (and I would like him to as he seems like a good bloke) the he will need to turn it round in the next three or four games or the situation will become unsalvagable. 

Not too sure why some people have been so against what you said regarding Adkins' sacking and Pochettino's appointment right after. I remember it being as how you said it and Poch very much needed to show fans he was a good manager right from the off, which he did.

The evidence is also in the thread, find a positive post: 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, HarvSFC said:

Not too sure why some people have been so against what you said regarding Adkins' sacking and Pochettino's appointment right after. I remember it being as how you said it and Poch very much needed to show fans he was a good manager right from the off, which he did.

The evidence is also in the thread, find a positive post: 

 

 

Great spot and there I am on page 2 being pissed off like I said. He really shoved it down everyone's throats.