Middlesbrough 2-1 Saints - Match Thread

[Osvaldorama]

Positives:  we have enough points to not be in the relegation zone even when we lose tomorrow

Negatives: we have a manager that thinks a suitable midfield 3 is Smallbone, Aribo, Adam Armstrong 

[Dman]

any update from what this clown has said from the press conference this morning? Or is it just the same old bollox? 

Hopefully Downes is back for this one. Downes and Charles in CM should at least give us a platform of stability to build on. 

[Block41 Saint]

7 minutes ago, Dman said:

any update from what this clown has said from the press conference this morning? Or is it just the same old bollox? 

Hopefully Downes is back for this one. Downes and Charles in CM should at least give us a platform of stability to build on. 

Downes is back. 

We'll start with a midfield of Charles, Smallbone and Adam Armstrong unfortunately. 

2-0 defeat. 

[egg]

Just now, Block41 Saint said:

Downes is back. 

We'll start with a midfield of Charles, Smallbone and Adam Armstrong unfortunately. 

2-0 defeat. 

Good news re Downes. I think he'll switch it a fair bit, and be a bit more pragmatic. At least one of the full backs at full back. Charles, Downes plus one in the middle, possibly SA to give some experience and quality on the ball. AA to play wide. 

[qwertyell]

8 minutes ago, Dman said:

any update from what this clown has said from the press conference this morning? Or is it just the same old bollox? 

Hopefully Downes is back for this one. Downes and Charles in CM should at least give us a platform of stability to build on. 

Nothing much of note: "bravery", "courage", "scar tissue" and all the greatest hits. Repeating that his teams have gone through the same rubbish spells at his previous clubs but have come through them to be "brilliant". Seems convinced he's been signed as a long term appointment, so it's all gravy.

Downes is fit to play. Bednarek fit to start. Stewart not happening any time this side of the international break. Stephens a way off.

[revolution saint]

Has anyone asked him what "being brave" actually means? Just sounds like one of those bullshit management phrases used to avoid talking about anything meaningful.

[Dman]

20 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

Nothing much of note: "bravery", "courage", "scar tissue" and all the greatest hits. Repeating that his teams have gone through the same rubbish spells at his previous clubs but have come through them to be "brilliant". Seems convinced he's been signed as a long term appointment, so it's all gravy.

Downes is fit to play. Bednarek fit to start. Stewart not happening any time this side of the international break. Stephens a way off.

This makes me laugh, none of his sides have been brilliant - He's a mid table manager, that's not brilliant. 

[Pamplemousse]

https://www.oneboro.co.uk/forum/topic/13529-middlesbrough-v-southampton/page/4/#comments

 

That last comment is quite funny, anyone of us here could've written that

[Dman]

22 minutes ago, egg said:

Good news re Downes. I think he'll switch it a fair bit, and be a bit more pragmatic. At least one of the full backs at full back. Charles, Downes plus one in the middle, possibly SA to give some experience and quality on the ball. AA to play wide. 

Agreed. Charles and Downes in midfield instantly makes us stronger. 

[qwertyell]

26 minutes ago, egg said:

I think he'll switch it a fair bit, and be a bit more pragmatic.

He said they went more pragmatic against Ipswich.

[Harry_SFC]

3 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

He said they went more pragmatic against Ipswich.

We didn't, it's basically just that Ipswich aren't as good at scoring goals as Leicester or Sunderland are.

[Suhari]

35 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

Has anyone asked him what "being brave" actually means? Just sounds like one of those bullshit management phrases used to avoid talking about anything meaningful.

I think it means essentially the same as 'with the greatest of respect' and 'I could've stayed in the village and married a Welsh bird'.

[saintant]

59 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Positives:  we have enough points to not be in the relegation zone even when we lose tomorrow

Negatives: we have a manager that thinks a suitable midfield 3 is Smallbone, Aribo, Adam Armstrong 

In addition he told the Echo that he was pleased with the way Aribo played!

[Convict Colony]

given downes is back I would do the following, have charles has a the sitting DM and Downes in the JWP role behind charly

I'd feel comfortable we would be more defensively stable with that and still have significant goal threat.

                   Bazanu

KWP. Bedernak. HWB. Manning

            Downes   Charles

                   Alcaraz

Armstrong               Sulemana

                  Adams

[saintant]

38 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

Has anyone asked him what "being brave" actually means? Just sounds like one of those bullshit management phrases used to avoid talking about anything meaningful.

I think it means being willing to receive the ball yards from your own goal surrounded by opponents. Doesn't matter if you fuck up and give a goal away as long as you are brave enough to try.

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

given downes is back I would do the following, have charles has a the sitting DM and Downes in the JWP role behind charly

I'd feel comfortable we would be more defensively stable with that and still have significant goal threat.

                   Bazanu

KWP. Bedernak. HWB. Manning

            Downes   Charles

                   Alcaraz

Armstrong               Sulemana

                  Adams

I think that's pretty close to what it'll be. I'm not sure he'll play Alcaraz or  Sulemana though, and I've got a feeling that SA's name is on the dice this time. 

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

given downes is back I would do the following, have charles has a the sitting DM and Downes in the JWP role behind charly

I'd feel comfortable we would be more defensively stable with that and still have significant goal threat.

                   Bazanu

KWP. Bedernak. HWB. Manning

            Downes   Charles

                   Alcaraz

Armstrong               Sulemana

                  Adams

Bit harsh on Edozie. 

[Dman]

19 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

given downes is back I would do the following, have charles has a the sitting DM and Downes in the JWP role behind charly

I'd feel comfortable we would be more defensively stable with that and still have significant goal threat.

                   Bazanu

KWP. Bedernak. HWB. Manning

            Downes   Charles

                   Alcaraz

Armstrong               Sulemana

                  Adams

This but Fraser and Edozie instead of Sully (better as an impact sub imo) and AA (just shite)

[igsey]

57 minutes ago, Dman said:

Agreed. Charles and Downes in midfield instantly makes us stronger. 

People on here have a much higher opinion of Downes than I feel he's earned in his showings for us so far.

[miserableoldgit]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

any update from what this clown has said from the press conference this morning? Or is it just the same old bollox? 

Hopefully Downes is back for this one. Downes and Charles in CM should at least give us a platform of stability to build on. 

https://www.southamptonfc.com/en/video/press-conference-live-martin-pre-middlesbrough

[Dman]

7 minutes ago, igsey said:

People on here have a much higher opinion of Downes than I feel he's earned in his showings for us so far.

He's been dealt a rough hand - how many times has he been paired with another proper CM? I don't think once he's played along side Charles, has he? 

Smallbone, Alcaraz, A Armstrong offer no stability in midfield at all. 

[Ken Tone]

14 minutes ago, igsey said:

People on here have a much higher opinion of Downes than I feel he's earned in his showings for us so far.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder.  

It's desperation isn't it really? We all want everything to be better once X , or Y,  is back.

Downes is worth his place though, preferably alongside Charles. 

[egg]

19 minutes ago, igsey said:

People on here have a much higher opinion of Downes than I feel he's earned in his showings for us so far.

He arrived rusty imo and has been played as the DM which he isn't. His performances at this level previously have been very good. I think he'll be very good alongside Charles and a consistent midfield pairing, playing their natural games, can only help us. 

[AlexLaw76]

20 minutes ago, egg said:

He arrived rusty imo and has been played as the DM which he isn't. His performances at this level previously have been very good. I think he'll be very good alongside Charles and a consistent midfield pairing, playing their natural games, can only help us. 

So, Downes in the smallbone role, being the sole CM tomorrow then

[egg]

7 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

So, Downes in the smallbone role, being the sole CM tomorrow then

That's not what I said. I reckon we'll see Charles and Downes, with one other slightly ahead. I'd like that to be Alcaraz but I think it'll be SA.

[ant]

2 hours ago, revolution saint said:

Has anyone asked him what "being brave" actually means? Just sounds like one of those bullshit management phrases used to avoid talking about anything meaningful.

Asking/expecting Bazunu to catch anything feels pretty brave.

[Dman]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

That's not what I said. I reckon we'll see Charles and Downes, with one other slightly ahead. I'd like that to be Alcaraz but I think it'll be SA.

I think he was highlighting what Martin will do (i.e the opposite of what makes sense)

[Yorkshire Saint]

2 hours ago, Convict Colony said:

given downes is back I would do the following, have charles has a the sitting DM and Downes in the JWP role behind charly

I'd feel comfortable we would be more defensively stable with that and still have significant goal threat.

                   Bazanu

KWP. Bedernak. HWB. Manning

            Downes   Charles

                   Alcaraz

Armstrong               Sulemana

                  Adams

Frazer over Armstrong and I agree 

[Alanh]

2 hours ago, revolution saint said:

Has anyone asked him what "being brave" actually means? Just sounds like one of those bullshit management phrases used to avoid talking about anything meaningful.

I would have thought it's pretty obvious.  He needs the players to get out of the habit of playing safe sideways and backwards passes because they are scared of making a mistake.  To do that they need to have the mindset to find space and demand the ball.  They need to take players on and make runs into space rather than stand still.  They need to move the ball quickly rather than slowly.  At the moment they are regularly taking the easy option rather than trusting themselves and their team mates to make attacking plays happen.  It's all about the players having a determined and positive mindset on the pitch.  At the moment it's obviously lacking especially when we cancede.

I guess 'being braver' is shorthand for the long paragraph above and works better in an interview / press conference situation.

[revolution saint]

14 minutes ago, Alanh said:

I would have thought it's pretty obvious.  He needs the players to get out of the habit of playing safe sideways and backwards passes because they are scared of making a mistake.  To do that they need to have the mindset to find space and demand the ball.  They need to take players on and make runs into space rather than stand still.  They need to move the ball quickly rather than slowly.  At the moment they are regularly taking the easy option rather than trusting themselves and their team mates to make attacking plays happen.  It's all about the players having a determined and positive mindset on the pitch.  At the moment it's obviously lacking especially when we cancede.

I guess 'being braver' is shorthand for the long paragraph above and works better in an interview / press conference situation.

Well that's interesting because it could be any of those things you suggest (or none of them) so it's not pretty obvious, is it? it's just your interpretation which is all well and good but it may not be that of Martin.

As for the part I've highlighted - you don't tell players to have a determined and positive mindset (or be brave), you have to create the environment for them to do so.  It's like telling a manic depressive to cheer up. 

 

Edited 22 September, 2023 by revolution saint

[fanimal]

He only said FD is in the squad so you can guarantee he will start with WS and look to keep the first 20 minutes slow and take the sting out of Boro; after that who knows it’s anyone’s game

[Alanh]

19 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

Well that's interesting because it could be any of those things you suggest (or none of them) so it's not pretty obvious, is it? it's just your interpretation which is all well and good but it may not be that of Martin.

As for the part I've highlighted - you don't tell players to have a determined and positive mindset (or be brave), you have to create the environment for them to do so.  It's like telling a manic depressive to cheer up. 

 

Yep, it's definitely my interpretation.  I'm not aware of any journalist asking the same question you asked, so the only response you are likely to get from here is an interpretation.

Completely agree about creating the right environment.  IMO that's his main job at the moment.

Edited 22 September, 2023 by Alanh

[Dusic]

Its pretty fucking obvious that when RM talks about being "brave" he is meaning to keep doing what they are being coached, i.e showing for the ball, being willing to receive it in tight areas, have a calmness to pass around the opposition press and to maintain this despite the reaction of the crowd or circumstances in the same.

He and JW have said many times it takes brave players to play in this style because it isn't easy.

Obviously some are at the stage where whatever he says they will question it but to repeat - its pretty fucking obvious what he means.

 

Edited 22 September, 2023 by Dusic

[Lord Duckhunter]

Being brave is not being afraid to make the same mistakes over and over and over again, to keep trying the same thing , even if it costs you…..Russ is the bravest manager we’ve ever fucking had. 

[Rebel]

The problem is Martin seems to be wedded to his 4-3-3 with 1 holding midfielder and the fullbacks pushing in to midfield to make a  2-3-5. But I am not sure we have the players to make that work.

We would undoubtedly be more solid playing 4-2-3-1 with Downes and Charles protecting the defence.  KWP is best as an attacking full back playing down the wing and cutting in or overlapping so we should let him do it. Maybe Manning can play the inverted fullback/midfielder role but I am not sure either is really good enough defensively to do it.

But if we are playing 4-3-3 it means the other fullback really has to stay back to make a 3 at the back or the DM has to drop back to make a 3 at the back as going 2-3-5 seems to leave us badly exposed at the back.

The way Citeh and Leicester play with one inverted full back means they end up in a 3-2-4-1 as one fullback stays back and the other pushes in to midfield alongside the DM.

Maybe it would work if Charles, Downes and Alacaraz are the midfield 3 with Charles dropping back between the centre backs, Manning moving into midfield alongside Downes, and Edozie, Alcaraz, Stu and KWP becoming the 4 behind Adarma or Adams.

A more orthodox 4-2-3-1 with attacking fullbacks and a double pivot to protect the defence would probably seem to suit our squad better though.  

 

 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

What's wrong with changing things up a bit from game to game, changing up the formation based on who we are playing? No one has yet explained why having a philosophy means having to make the same mistakes constantly until we get a bit better at it. 

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, egg said:

That's not what I said. I reckon we'll see Charles and Downes, with one other slightly ahead. I'd like that to be Alcaraz but I think it'll be SA.

I know...I was being cynical on Martin's part....as I agree with you

[egg]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What's wrong with changing things up a bit from game to game, changing up the formation based on who we are playing? No one has yet explained why having a philosophy means having to make the same mistakes constantly until we get a bit better at it. 

That would be sensible, but to answer your question, It feels like an unhappy cocktail of ego, stubbornness, stupidity, and not knowing what else to do. The sad thing is, his philosophy isn't even the Pep model, or the Arteta version. His is more renegade with both full backs tucking in, both wingers sitting wide, virtually everyone piling forward, etc. It's a mess. 

[revolution saint]

1 hour ago, Dusic said:

Its pretty fucking obvious that when RM talks about being "brave" he is meaning to keep doing what they are being coached, i.e showing for the ball, being willing to receive it in tight areas, have a calmness to pass around the opposition press and to maintain this despite the reaction of the crowd or circumstances in the same.

He and JW have said many times it takes brave players to play in this style because it isn't easy.

Obviously some are at the stage where whatever he says they will question it but to repeat - its pretty fucking obvious what he means.

 

OK, cheers.  Seems like the braver they get, the more shit they get.

[teamsaint]

40 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What's wrong with changing things up a bit from game to game, changing up the formation based on who we are playing? No one has yet explained why having a philosophy means having to make the same mistakes constantly until we get a bit better at it. 

Nothing wrong at all with changing the system, but nobody ever wins things without a settled back four and decent cover in CM.A non- negotiable start point. Inverted full backs might, just might be part of the mix from time to time, but only when we have developed real solidity, and that is a way off, as we all know.

[Chez]

45 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What's wrong with changing things up a bit from game to game, changing up the formation based on who we are playing? No one has yet explained why having a philosophy means having to make the same mistakes constantly until we get a bit better at it. 

nothing, but I guess RM doesn't want to change things in terms of formation, because he still thinks the players are learning his system and way of playing. Not sure how long it takes for that to become natural and importantly bear fruit in terms of goals and points. "How long" is something that has been asked of him.

[Dman]

46 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What's wrong with changing things up a bit from game to game, changing up the formation based on who we are playing? No one has yet explained why having a philosophy means having to make the same mistakes constantly until we get a bit better at it. 

I can't help but feel our strongest formation is 4231

Charles and Downs in a double pivot, Charley in the traditional no 10. Manning and KWP playing as genuine wingbacks. 

gives us a stable base, with attacking flare and quality up top. No reason why we couldn't dominate the ball with that as well.

[Galway saint]

1 hour ago, Dusic said:

Its pretty fucking obvious that when RM talks about being "brave" he is meaning to keep doing what they are being coached, i.e showing for the ball, being willing to receive it in tight areas, have a calmness to pass around the opposition press and to maintain this despite the reaction of the crowd or circumstances in the same.

He and JW have said many times it takes brave players to play in this style because it isn't easy.

Obviously some are at the stage where whatever he says they will question it but to repeat - its pretty fucking obvious what he means.

 

i think the players are being ‘brave’; that’s why we concede so many goals from mistakes as they pass it in tight corners around the 18 yard box. so it’s not a lack of ‘bravery’ that’s the problem instead it’s playing a brand of football that assumes you have the 82 brazil world cup squad when instead you have some decent but not exceptional players. 

it’s why we are so easy to play against. teams just wait for the mistake.

[Convict Colony]

From another thread i asked AI how we should beat boro

What we should do v Boro 

When facing a team like Middlesbrough, Russell Martin's Southampton FC should consider the following tactics:

Control the Midfield: Middlesbrough is known for their physicality and direct style of play. Hence, controlling the midfield is crucial. The 4-1-4-1 formation allows for a strong midfield presence. The single pivot can help disrupt Middlesbrough's play, while the four midfielders can help maintain possession and control the tempo of the game.

Quick Transitions: Given Middlesbrough's direct style, quick transitions from defense to attack can catch them off guard. The inverted wingbacks and midfielders should look to quickly move the ball forward after regaining possession.

Defend Set Pieces Well: Middlesbrough can be a threat from set pieces due to their physicality. Good organization and man-marking during set pieces is key to prevent conceding goals.

Exploit Wide Areas: As the wingbacks push forward, there could be space to exploit on the flanks. Quick switches of play to the wingbacks can help create scoring opportunities.

Press High: A high press can disrupt Middlesbrough's build-up play and force them into mistakes. However, the team should be careful not to overcommit and leave spaces at the back.

[JRM]

3 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

So, Downes in the smallbone role, being the sole CM tomorrow then

Nah Charles will be the holding midfielder, Downes can have more freedom, i think we'll do ok if they play natural positions. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

36 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

From another thread i asked AI how we should beat boro

What RM will ignore and not do v Boro 

When facing a team like Middlesbrough, Russell Martin's Southampton FC should consider the following tactics:

Control the Midfield: Middlesbrough is known for their physicality and direct style of play. Hence, controlling the midfield is crucial. The 4-1-4-1 formation allows for a strong midfield presence. The single pivot can help disrupt Middlesbrough's play, while the four midfielders can help maintain possession and control the tempo of the game.

Quick Transitions: Given Middlesbrough's direct style, quick transitions from defense to attack can catch them off guard. The inverted wingbacks and midfielders should look to quickly move the ball forward after regaining possession.

Defend Set Pieces Well: Middlesbrough can be a threat from set pieces due to their physicality. Good organization and man-marking during set pieces is key to prevent conceding goals.

Exploit Wide Areas: As the wingbacks push forward, there could be space to exploit on the flanks. Quick switches of play to the wingbacks can help create scoring opportunities.

Press High: A high press can disrupt Middlesbrough's build-up play and force them into mistakes. However, the team should be careful not to overcommit and leave spaces at the back.

There…fixed it for you. 😉🤣

[JRM]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Being brave is not being afraid to make the same mistakes over and over and over again, to keep trying the same thing , even if it costs you…..Russ is the bravest manager we’ve ever fucking had. 

Nominate him then 

 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

nothing, but I guess RM doesn't want to change things in terms of formation, because he still thinks the players are learning his system and way of playing. Not sure how long it takes for that to become natural and importantly bear fruit in terms of goals and points. "How long" is something that has been asked of him.

I do understand that but then why did we get in a load of players on loan, some with options to buy in the event of promotion? Either the aim was automatic promotion as they said, or the aim is to learn a complete new style of play and play the exact same way every week with the result that we slowly get better a little bit at a time. I don't think it's realistic to appoint someone like Martin, ask him to make wholesale changes and stick to his philosophy come hell or high and then expect us to go for automatic promotion. We'd have been better writing off the season, crossing our fingers for playoffs with some good end of season form and then going again next year with a core of players who do understand the system and can implement it better. All we are going to do this year is fall below the expectations of the majority of fans for the season and piss the long suffering fans off further and then we will lose Sulemana, Fraser, Adams, KWP, THB and try again next year but with worse players.

[DT]

Think we'll lose this one as well. They'll be bang up for it and just need to attack us from the off. Our blancmange set up will quiver a bit and then melt. We should still give him time, though. It's hard enough without the toxic atmosphere - so actually away games should be easier. Still think we should get a free agent (for you pedants) experienced keeper in though, to build from the back. An old head/character really makes a difference - witness no-Dunk Brighton last night.

[Osvaldorama]

As the old saying goes; ‘there’s a fine line between brave and stupid’. 

These owners and management wouldn’t want to be be seen to be doing anything too obvious - like defending. We are much too brave for that. 
 

Personally I don’t think ignoring the strengths of your squad by playing strikers in midfield and midfielders in defence is brave. I don’t think losing every single aerial duel or giving the ball away from your own set pieces is brave. I don’t think passing your team mates into trouble on the edge of your own box is brave.
 

I think it’s fucking stupid. But what do I know? I’m only a fan.