Middlesbrough 2-1 Saints - Match Thread

[revolution saint]

I quite like Bertrand Russell, who might have explained our current predicament in Russell's Paradox.

Edited 23 September, 2023 by revolution saint

[Galway saint]

back from the game and a few thoughts 

1 it was better than sunderland but the opposition was worse. although better we could still have conceded 4 or more. their number 11 ran gave us a hard time in the first half.

2  the defence remains so easy to get at. charles looked less assured and downes and smallbone seemed to occupy the same areas on the pitch. wasn’t clear what the dynamic or structure is in midfield and feels a mess. 

3 why play holgate and then replace him with manning at HT. he was largely responsible for the goal but thought we looked more solid. presumably that was the intention when playing him ? he was better than at sunderland but that’s not saying much.

4 Very static up front. It’s been said before that Adams is a support striker and there was a general lack of movement. armstrong had a decent first half and less effective when he moved to CF. the signing of a crocked stewart now seems a real gamble but part of the general philosophy of avoiding the simple and trying to do the clever thing. 

5 less aimless passing today and actually some decent diagonals but its still all too pedestrian allowing the opposition to reset. we never muster any real intensity and build up a head of steam.

6  front three seem reluctant to run the channels and we had opportunities to break but then inexplicably the player would stop and turn back. KWP is the only one who really drives forward.

7 still a lack of cohesion and having watched three of the last four there seems no real sign of improvement. fear the next decent side we play will hammer us again.

at the moment we look more likely to go down than to go up. 

 

 

 

 

 

[antialias]

After the first four games on 26 August:

10 out of 12 points, fourth place, W3 D1 L0, scored 10, conceded 7, goal score +3. Goal difference separates us from Norwich in second.

On 26 August, Nathan Tella sold and Jack Stephens injured.

Between 26 August and 23 September:

W0 D0 L4, scored 2, conceded 12. The worst run of form in the Championship.

 

 

 

[Osvaldorama]

Doesn’t get much worse than today. 
 

Most worrying part is the noises coming from Martin that he still thinks we are playing OK. 

 

Player ratings from me:

Bazunu - 6/10. Awful for the first goal. Good apart from that. But imo the first should be a bread and butter save for a top level keeper. But generally OK apart from that and kept the score down 

Kwp - 7/10. Ran his socks off on both sides. Probably the only player that deserves praise  

THB - 5/10. Harsh pen imo. Understand why it was given, but I think the striker dived. Think he looks like he has a lot of potential but still raw with his passing  

‘Janny B’ - 5/10. Shit, really. But thrown to the wolves as usual. Made some outstanding blocks. Made some horrific passes. Not the biggest problem today, but still fairly poor.

Holgate - 4/10. Awful mistake for the goal.. but up until that I honestly thought he was doing OK. Trying to make things happen playing balls forward. I don’t think Manning offered anything more, which shows how fucked we are.

Charles - 5/10. We look better with him in DM. Unfortunately he’s a young kid who is raw so his passing and awareness catches him out. Criminal squad management because we are heavily relying on him already

Smallbone - 3/10. Awful. Shocking performance. 2 yards behind play all day. Couldn’t tackle, pass, cross or shoot

Downes - 3/10. Really expecting big things from him.. unfortunately expectations sometimes don’t match reality. Awful today  

Fraser - ?/10. Was he on the pitch? He looked quick as he ran down the wing once. Did absolutely fuck all else  

Adam A - 2/10. Scored the nice goal which doubled his points here. Apart from that he’s an absolutely woeful footballer. Can’t stand to watch him. He’s like an even shitter, smaller Shane long.

Che - 3/10. Great assist. Did fuck all else. Did he even touch the ball again? Not all his fault though as he has no service thanks to #Russball

Subs: all get 1/10. Apart from stu who gets a 3/10. All of them were dreadful, especially Sulemana who looks like a massive waste of money IMO. 
 

manager: 0/10. Fuck off. Suicide football. Zero attacking intent. Zero things to be positive about. 

[GDog07]

I assume the board will just let this continue and we’re just to have to accept being gaslit for a good while longer when we can all see how bad it is, definitely until it’s too late for our promotion chances, but leave us just enough time to scrape away from relegation if it really REALLY goes to shit and then make a change.

Or maybe they’re content and happy to just survive in the Championship this year and will accept mid-table as a finishing position and we’ll have Martin forevermore this season - Imagine. I can’t see how we have a better chance than this season to go back up, surely promotion will only get harder as the years pass by.

So depressing, I thought we really had a good chance to fight for a chance of some sort of promotion challenge, can guarantee I’ll be checking out of this season if we’re going to languish below mid-table with Martin over the coming months, I hope the board have more ambition than that.

[IronCitySaint]

Being shit is the only thing this club excels at since these clowns have been our owners. Expect it to continue for as long as they are here. They strive for and accept utter mediocrity at every level of the club. Oh, but they are so much smarter than anyone else out there. Winning games and entertaining the customer is far less important than being smug and hip and having a "philosophy." This season is looking like being identical to last season, just with worse players in a worse league. Wish they would piss off and take their pathetic experiment somewhere else.

[Galway saint]

6 hours ago, GDog07 said:

I assume the board will just let this continue and we’re just to have to accept being gaslit for a good while longer when we can all see how bad it is, definitely until it’s too late for our promotion chances, but leave us just enough time to scrape away from relegation if it really REALLY goes to shit and then make a change.

Or maybe they’re content and happy to just survive in the Championship this year and will accept mid-table as a finishing position and we’ll have Martin forevermore this season - Imagine. I can’t see how we have a better chance than this season to go back up, surely promotion will only get harder as the years pass by.

So depressing, I thought we really had a good chance to fight for a chance of some sort of promotion challenge, can guarantee I’ll be checking out of this season if we’re going to languish below mid-table with Martin over the coming months, I hope the board have more ambition than that.

i think you’re probably right. unless relegation starts to look a real possibility i doubt they will make a change. if however we get beat by leeds thats 5 defeats on the bounce and it does start to look untenable. what does the club do then; it has to make some sort of statement ?

the other thing to say is that playing this way it’s a terrible watch - you might excuse it if it produced results but it doesn’t. it’s got no redeeming features

 

[Sheaf Saint]

7 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

THB - 5/10. Harsh pen imo. Understand why it was given, but I think the striker dived.

WTF!? He had hold of the striker's arm with both hands and literally pulled him to the ground.

It was a stupid, stupid thing to do and it's a penalty all day long.

[Chez]

10 hours ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

Bit of a side-note, Adam Armstrong as captain. He doesn’t seem the most vocal to me.

Even Che Adams was a better fit and the only reason he is no longer vice-captain is because a supposed move for him to leave didn’t go through?

He runs his heart out, so at least leads by example - not that I think that should be applauded. Every player should do that. 

Not sure Che brings anything to the party. He's been here a while and is older than a few others. Great.

I've said it before many times, IMO it makes fucks all difference who actually wears the armband. Messi says fuck all, but didn't stop Argentina winning the world cup. You just need a few players in the side/squad with strong characters that help motivate the others and players that, when the chips are down, won't give up. Switch the captaincy to Bednarek or whoever and it will change fuck all.  

 

Edited 24 September, 2023 by Chez

[Chez]

12 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

WTF!? He had hold of the striker's arm with both hands and literally pulled him to the ground.

It was a stupid, stupid thing to do and it's a penalty all day long.

I agree its a pen, but I would like to add that it wasn't simply a moment of stupidity, it was a consequence of Cobern dominating THB for an hour.

If you watch the game again, you will see that Cobern won headers, held the ball up, outmuscled THB and controlled the game from the front. As a result, when the ball came into the box that time, THB knew he was in trouble, couldn't physically prevent him backing into him, holding the ball up and inevitably having a great chance to score, so he did everything he possibly could to stop it, which meant grabbing and pulling him. Cobern did pull his shirt too, so I can see why THB complained, but the foul was more desperation than stupidity. 

[Chez]

8 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

 

Subs: all get 1/10. Apart from stu who gets a 3/10. All of them were dreadful, especially Sulemana who looks like a massive waste of money IMO. 

Dreadful? 

I thought Stu was very good off the bench. He caused them lots of problems and was dynamic and purposeful. Not sure he could have done much more. Perhaps you can't give subs high marks, as short cameos can be misleading, but I'd give him an 8. How you ca describe him as dreadful I don't know. 

Not sure what you were/are expecting from Sulemena. He absolutely skinned their left back on two occasions using his skill and pace getting to the byeline and creating an opportunity. Maybe there wasn't a goal at the end of it, but at least he made something happen and got us up the pitch in an instant. 

Thought Edozie did OK too. He certainly wasn't dreadful.

[Chez]

9 hours ago, Galway saint said:

3 why play holgate and then replace him with manning at HT. he was largely responsible for the goal but thought we looked more solid. presumably that was the intention when playing him ? he was better than at sunderland but that’s not saying much.

`We were more solid with him, but he wasn't much better than he was at Sunderland, but why replace him with Manning?' 

So RM perhaps made a good decision to play him, as we seemed more solid. But he obviously he made an error that lead to their goal and you thought he wasn't much cop. So, would you have kept him on? And more importantly, what would you do next game?

 

[LGTL]

Smallbone was disgraceful yesterday. Utter powderpuff pussy of a player. Get him out. 

[Chez]

11 minutes ago, LGTL said:

Smallbone was disgraceful yesterday. Utter powderpuff pussy of a player. Get him out. 

powerderpuff - good description. He's quite a big tall lad, but he just dangles a leg in a tackle. When a ball needed winning he was pathetic at times yesterday, but I think that's just how he plays. 

The one positive thing I would say is that some of his passing does at least have a bit of zip on it, but overall he's a luxury player that just strolls around like its a fun day out. We need a bit more devil from our central midfield three.

Edited 24 September, 2023 by Chez

[Billy the Kidd]

9 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

Doesn’t get much worse than today. 
 

Most worrying part is the noises coming from Martin that he still thinks we are playing OK. 

 

Player ratings from me:

Bazunu - 6/10. Awful for the first goal. Good apart from that. But imo the first should be a bread and butter save for a top level keeper. But generally OK apart from that and kept the score down 

Kwp - 7/10. Ran his socks off on both sides. Probably the only player that deserves praise  

THB - 5/10. Harsh pen imo. Understand why it was given, but I think the striker dived. Think he looks like he has a lot of potential but still raw with his passing  

‘Janny B’ - 5/10. Shit, really. But thrown to the wolves as usual. Made some outstanding blocks. Made some horrific passes. Not the biggest problem today, but still fairly poor.

Holgate - 4/10. Awful mistake for the goal.. but up until that I honestly thought he was doing OK. Trying to make things happen playing balls forward. I don’t think Manning offered anything more, which shows how fucked we are.

Charles - 5/10. We look better with him in DM. Unfortunately he’s a young kid who is raw so his passing and awareness catches him out. Criminal squad management because we are heavily relying on him already

Smallbone - 3/10. Awful. Shocking performance. 2 yards behind play all day. Couldn’t tackle, pass, cross or shoot

Downes - 3/10. Really expecting big things from him.. unfortunately expectations sometimes don’t match reality. Awful today  

Fraser - ?/10. Was he on the pitch? He looked quick as he ran down the wing once. Did absolutely fuck all else  

Adam A - 2/10. Scored the nice goal which doubled his points here. Apart from that he’s an absolutely woeful footballer. Can’t stand to watch him. He’s like an even shitter, smaller Shane long.

Che - 3/10. Great assist. Did fuck all else. Did he even touch the ball again? Not all his fault though as he has no service thanks to #Russball

Subs: all get 1/10. Apart from stu who gets a 3/10. All of them were dreadful, especially Sulemana who looks like a massive waste of money IMO. 
 

manager: 0/10. Fuck off. Suicide football. Zero attacking intent. Zero things to be positive about. 

You’re slipping mate - 1/10 for Joe Aribo. Your having a mare 😉

Becoming too positive from the other side 😇

[austsaint]

2 minutes ago, Chez said:

powerderpuff - good description. He's quite a big tall lad, but he just dangles a leg in a tackle. When a ball needed winning he was pathetic at times yesterday, but I think that's just how he plays. 

The one positive thing I would say is that some of his passing does at least have a bit of zip on it, but overall he's a luxury player that just strolls around like its a fun day out. We need a bit more devil from our central midfield three.

Smallbone’s continued selection is at the heart of my rather long list of convictions that Martin isn’t up to standard.  WS has a few technical skills, but needs time and space to find a pass and has a default to sideways and backwards.   Offers little defensively and is consistently beaten for pace and movement as he lopes around the park.  With Downes not yet living up to expectation and Charles still finding his way, we have a midfield which is gifting all opposition the upper hand.

Martin spoke about being too passive after scoring, yet passively left the lineup and structure (Manning change aside) much the same for too long.  The introduction of Stu, Sulemana and Edozie improved the side straight away - we looked more threatening but the momentum of the game had long changed since the AA goal…which, from memory, was the only shot on target.

And then the Martin post-game clap trap about how well we played, how bravely etc.   A week or so ago I thought Martin was on the cusp of being on notice.  He should now be shown the door.  The patterns, shortcomings and self deception are clear.   What a shit show.
 

[Saint Billy]

On the face of it Smallbone looks a  controlled and stylish player but in reality that's because he releases the ball early along the backline continually passing responsibility to someone else.

He either does not have the skill or basically will not try and find that cutting pass up front. He's scared to tackle and just floats about offering nothing.

Just what we need in a piss poor team as it is 

[Daft Kerplunk]

10 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

Doesn’t get much worse than today. 
 

Most worrying part is the noises coming from Martin that he still thinks we are playing OK. 

 

Player ratings from me:

Bazunu - 6/10. Awful for the first goal. Good apart from that. But imo the first should be a bread and butter save for a top level keeper. But generally OK apart from that and kept the score down 

Kwp - 7/10. Ran his socks off on both sides. Probably the only player that deserves praise  

THB - 5/10. Harsh pen imo. Understand why it was given, but I think the striker dived. Think he looks like he has a lot of potential but still raw with his passing  

‘Janny B’ - 5/10. Shit, really. But thrown to the wolves as usual. Made some outstanding blocks. Made some horrific passes. Not the biggest problem today, but still fairly poor.

Holgate - 4/10. Awful mistake for the goal.. but up until that I honestly thought he was doing OK. Trying to make things happen playing balls forward. I don’t think Manning offered anything more, which shows how fucked we are.

Charles - 5/10. We look better with him in DM. Unfortunately he’s a young kid who is raw so his passing and awareness catches him out. Criminal squad management because we are heavily relying on him already

Smallbone - 3/10. Awful. Shocking performance. 2 yards behind play all day. Couldn’t tackle, pass, cross or shoot

Downes - 3/10. Really expecting big things from him.. unfortunately expectations sometimes don’t match reality. Awful today  

Fraser - ?/10. Was he on the pitch? He looked quick as he ran down the wing once. Did absolutely fuck all else  

Adam A - 2/10. Scored the nice goal which doubled his points here. Apart from that he’s an absolutely woeful footballer. Can’t stand to watch him. He’s like an even shitter, smaller Shane long.

Che - 3/10. Great assist. Did fuck all else. Did he even touch the ball again? Not all his fault though as he has no service thanks to #Russball

Subs: all get 1/10. Apart from stu who gets a 3/10. All of them were dreadful, especially Sulemana who looks like a massive waste of money IMO. 
 

manager: 0/10. Fuck off. Suicide football. Zero attacking intent. Zero things to be positive about. 

Whilst a new manager might get us playing better and being harder to beat, is this really a top 6 team? I see mistake after mistake with these players, playing casually with no intensity, and that’s on them as individuals. For anything better to happen, players also need to take a long hard look at themselves.

[LGTL]

2 minutes ago, Daft Kerplunk said:

Whilst a new manager might get us playing better and being harder to beat, is this really a top 6 team? I see mistake after mistake with these players, playing casually with no intensity, and that’s on them as individuals. For anything better to happen, players also need to take a long hard look at themselves.

You don’t actually need to be that good to do well in this league. Every team that have spanked us this season has had spells in the match where they looked hopeless. It’s a really poor league. 
 

 

[trousers]

51 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

On the face of it Smallbone looks a  controlled and stylish player but in reality that's because he releases the ball early along the backline continually passing responsibility to someone else.

He either does not have the skill or basically will not try and find that cutting pass up front. He's scared to tackle and just floats about offering nothing.

Just what we need in a piss poor team as it is 

Thinking out loud, are we playing Smallbone in the wrong position? IIRC, he plays in a more advanced position for Ireland, and has looked relatively decent in that role, and yet here we play him deeper? We've all seen how much better JWP is when he's played in a more advanced position. Déjà vu all over again...?

Edited 24 September, 2023 by trousers

[Lee On Solent Saint]

1 hour ago, Saint Billy said:

On the face of it Smallbone looks a  controlled and stylish player but in reality that's because he releases the ball early along the backline continually passing responsibility to someone else.

He either does not have the skill or basically will not try and find that cutting pass up front. He's scared to tackle and just floats about offering nothing.

Just what we need in a piss poor team as it is 

Am convinced the only reason we didn't sell him, and then give him a new contract was because we needed to show that there is a pathway to the first team from the Academy. He's just taking the JWP role over of being the poster boy. Of course, that fails to take into account that we never play anyone from our own Academy, preferring to bring in young players from other set ups. 

[austsaint]

32 minutes ago, trousers said:

Thinking out loud, are we playing Smallbone in the wrong position? IIRC, he plays in a more advanced position for Ireland, and has looked relatively decent in that role, and yet here we play him deeper? We've all seen how much better JWP is when he's played in a more advanced position. Déjà vu all over again...?

Smallbone did play in an attacking mid position yesterday, and again was sub-par. Stu or Alcaraz starting or replacing WS earlier was the call I wanted.   Sulemana and Edozie on earlier to benefit from the better attacking mid options we have but didn’t employ.

[Lighthouse]

15 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Am convinced the only reason we didn't sell him, and then give him a new contract was because we needed to show that there is a pathway to the first team from the Academy. He's just taking the JWP role over of being the poster boy. Of course, that fails to take into account that we never play anyone from our own Academy, preferring to bring in young players from other set ups. 

He was given a contract because he was decent for Stoke last season. Nobody 'needs to be shown there's a pathway', if they're good enough to make the first team squad they will. We bring in players from other academies because they're far superior to anything we've produced ourselves, since probably Calum Chambers.

[Convict Colony]

Can we have a new rule that as soon as we lose a game the thread is locked and hidden.

Sort of like a MIB memory swipe and we can pretend we've got a chance in the next game.

[saintant]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Thinking out loud, are we playing Smallbone in the wrong position? IIRC, he plays in a more advanced position for Ireland, and has looked relatively decent in that role, and yet here we play him deeper? We've all seen how much better JWP is when he's played in a more advanced position. Déjà vu all over again...?

Yeah, he should be on the bench.

[Galway saint]

2 hours ago, trousers said:

Thinking out loud, are we playing Smallbone in the wrong position? IIRC, he plays in a more advanced position for Ireland, and has looked relatively decent in that role, and yet here we play him deeper? We've all seen how much better JWP is when he's played in a more advanced position. Déjà vu all over again...?

As far as i could see yesterday smallbone was the most advanced and was supposed to be supporting adams 

[Sheaf Saint]

2 hours ago, trousers said:

Déjà vu all over again...?

[Galway saint]

4 hours ago, Chez said:

`We were more solid with him, but he wasn't much better than he was at Sunderland, but why replace him with Manning?' 

So RM perhaps made a good decision to play him, as we seemed more solid. But he obviously he made an error that lead to their goal and you thought he wasn't much cop. So, would you have kept him on? And more importantly, what would you do next game?

 

My point was more that RM presumably thought we needed something different to Manning so brings in Holgate and then hauls him off at HT and puts Manning back in! 

Yes holgate was at fault for the goal but did ok apart from that. He seemed better able to scope with their number 11 than KWP did. There was a lack of attacking threat down that flank when he was there but that seemed more down to AA not running the channels than any deficiency in Holgate. Once Manning came on we looked better offensively on that side but he looks more a right mid than defender so you would expect that.

we can’t keep conceding so many goals so logically you play the more defensively minded player in the next game and try to make us harder to beat. 

personally i think the bigger issue lies with the Centre mid positions that are a mess and make us so easy to get at. i just don’t feel we have many options there and lack an experienced DM but we have been saying that since Romeu left. 

 

 

[stknowle]

5 hours ago, Chez said:

powerderpuff - good description. He's quite a big tall lad, but he just dangles a leg in a tackle. When a ball needed winning he was pathetic at times yesterday, but I think that's just how he plays. 

The one positive thing I would say is that some of his passing does at least have a bit of zip on it, but overall he's a luxury player that just strolls around like its a fun day out. We need a bit more devil from our central midfield three.

I thought he looked good against Sheff W. Sadly that is the ONLY game I can say that about that I've ever seen him play in. Seems to think he's a Pirlo type tempo-setter 🤡

[tdmickey3]

Well, this was a masterclass in tactical cluelessness again followed by his bullshit post match comments proving he is and will continue to be a failure here.
The evidence all can see will go unnoticed by the “project” obsessed fools at the club

Any decent players we have left will be off in January or the summer and we will be wallowing around in the championship or worse drop to league 1

Am I alone in hoping we don’t meet the skates anytime soon, with this loon at the helm would cause us further embarrassment by losing miserably to them 

He has to go and soon

 

[JRM]

8 hours ago, Chez said:

powerderpuff - good description. He's quite a big tall lad, but he just dangles a leg in a tackle. When a ball needed winning he was pathetic at times yesterday, but I think that's just how he plays. 

The one positive thing I would say is that some of his passing does at least have a bit of zip on it, but overall he's a luxury player that just strolls around like its a fun day out. We need a bit more devil from our central midfield three.

Which of our players do win 50/50s ? KWP is probably only one. 

[saintant]

10 minutes ago, JRM said:

Which of our players do win 50/50s ? KWP is probably only one. 

We don't win the 20/80s in our favour let alone 50/50s.  Never seen such a team of abject weaklings.

[Roo1976]

23 hours ago, Galway saint said:

i think you’re probably right. unless relegation starts to look a real possibility i doubt they will make a change. if however we get beat by leeds thats 5 defeats on the bounce and it does start to look untenable. what does the club do then; it has to make some sort of statement ?

the other thing to say is that playing this way it’s a terrible watch - you might excuse it if it produced results but it doesn’t. it’s got no redeeming features

 

Christ if we were run by Watfords mob we would have got rid on Saturday without hesitation

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Just back from the game (I overnighted at son in laws on the way back) and here are a few thoughts. Apologies they are a bit late (and long winded), but I need to unburden.

I couldn't believe how all of our new signings have suddenly become so poor. Downes was inconspicuous on Saturday. The only time I noticed him was when he fluffed a pass which could have led to a goal had he delivered. Harwood-Bellis struggled all game, no pace whatsoever, hard to believe he is the captain of England U21. Fraser no impact at all, prefer to have Amo-Ameyaw. Charles, having looked to be a really good player at first has become a shadow of his first few games. Holgate, well what can I say? First time I've seen him, ponderous is being kind. Manning, when he came on, didn't seem to know where he was playing. He was everywhere he shouldn't be and no where he should be. The yawning gaps down his side of the pitch were quickly exploited. It seems Martin's coaching is turning good players into dummies. Boro were utter garbage in the first half hour. The crowd were on their backs and they were there for the taking. Although Armstrong took his goal well enough that was all he did, except run. He's such an ineffectual ordinary player. Adams was awful too. Missed a good chance before our goal and he added nothing whatsoever. And to think I was pleased he didn't leave. Give me Ballard any day. Smallbone I watched closely. He glides and looks classy without delivering much. He should have scored in the 2nd H when presented with a good chance but he shot tamely at the 'keeper. It was the sort of chance that other teams always score against us. Walker-Peters huffed and puffed but made errors and his comical foul throw towards the end was embarrassing just when we had won back possession. It was a cluster fuck of a a performance and I felt deeply embarrassed to be a Saints fan.

I met quite a few current pros over the weekend, playing for other clubs and the general feeling is that Martin's sides are "soft" and he is not rated as a manager in the game. I think we are all waking up to that, at the moment. The players looked disinterested, half-hearted and were full of simple mistakes. Passes went astray all the time. The second half was so frustrating. Edozie brightened things up a bit and Sulemana has pace but that was about as good as it got. We have severe problems all over the park. Goal scoring, midfield and defence I wouldn't know where to begin. We can't keep carrying on as if by magic we are going to turn a corner but the thought of a fifth manager in less than a year is bat crazy but a sure sign of massive mismanagement on an industrial scale. Martin is a charlatan. As well as the board, he has successfully duped Adam Blackmore, I see who was calling for him to be given more time, but we will be serious relegation candidates very soon unless the rot is stopped. I spent 12 hours in my car driving to this away game and had a lot of time to think about our predicament. Other than our relegation/administration season I can't remember being more depressed as a Saints fan. Even in the Branfoot days we had fight but that is badly missing. We have been crying out for some leadership on the pitch but our calls have not been answered by the powers to be. The fans are helpless to intercede. We can only hope someone in SR is sensible enough to smell the roses and take a gulp. Otherwise we are in for a winter of discontent............ big time.

[trousers]

29 minutes ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

Just back from the game (I overnighted at son in laws on the way back) and here are a few thoughts. Apologies they are a bit late (and long winded), but I need to unburden.

I couldn't believe how all of our new signings have suddenly become so poor. Downes was inconspicuous on Saturday. The only time I noticed him was when he fluffed a pass which could have led to a goal had he delivered. Harwood-Bellis struggled all game, no pace whatsoever, hard to believe he is the captain of England U21. Fraser no impact at all, prefer to have Amo-Ameyaw. Charles, having looked to be a really good player at first has become a shadow of his first few games. Holgate, well what can I say? First time I've seen him, ponderous is being kind. Manning, when he came on, didn't seem to know where he was playing. He was everywhere he shouldn't be and no where he should be. The yawning gaps down his side of the pitch were quickly exploited. It seems Martin's coaching is turning good players into dummies. Boro were utter garbage in the first half hour. The crowd were on their backs and they were there for the taking. Although Armstrong took his goal well enough that was all he did, except run. He's such an ineffectual ordinary player. Adams was awful too. Missed a good chance before our goal and he added nothing whatsoever. And to think I was pleased he didn't leave. Give me Ballard any day. Smallbone I watched closely. He glides and looks classy without delivering much. He should have scored in the 2nd H when presented with a good chance but he shot tamely at the 'keeper. It was the sort of chance that other teams always score against us. Walker-Peters huffed and puffed but made errors and his comical foul throw towards the end was embarrassing just when we had won back possession. It was a cluster fuck of a a performance and I felt deeply embarrassed to be a Saints fan.

I met quite a few current pros over the weekend, playing for other clubs and the general feeling is that Martin's sides are "soft" and he is not rated as a manager in the game. I think we are all waking up to that, at the moment. The players looked disinterested, half-hearted and were full of simple mistakes. Passes went astray all the time. The second half was so frustrating. Edozie brightened things up a bit and Sulemana has pace but that was about as good as it got. We have severe problems all over the park. Goal scoring, midfield and defence I wouldn't know where to begin. We can't keep carrying on as if by magic we are going to turn a corner but the thought of a fifth manager in less than a year is bat crazy but a sure sign of massive mismanagement on an industrial scale. Martin is a charlatan. As well as the board, he has successfully duped Adam Blackmore, I see who was calling for him to be given more time, but we will be serious relegation candidates very soon unless the rot is stopped. I spent 12 hours in my car driving to this away game and had a lot of time to think about our predicament. Other than our relegation/administration season I can't remember being more depressed as a Saints fan. Even in the Branfoot days we had fight but that is badly missing. We have been crying out for some leadership on the pitch but our calls have not been answered by the powers to be. The fans are helpless to intercede. We can only hope someone in SR is sensible enough to smell the roses and take a gulp. Otherwise we are in for a winter of discontent............ big time.

Good post FF... Might be an idea to paste it into the Russell Martin thread too as it may get 'lost' in the post-match thread (?)

[trousers]

18 hours ago, Galway saint said:

As far as i could see yesterday smallbone was the most advanced and was supposed to be supporting adams 

Fair enough... Shows how much I was paying attention! 

[Mr Brightside]

Apologies if posted already, but hats off to those that went. 👏

[Flexter1987]

Maybe it's time to look for a real coach... 

[Midfield_General]

1 hour ago, Mr Brightside said:

Apologies if posted already, but hats off to those that went. 👏

No no no, they’re the problem, didn’t you know?? 

Not Martin or SR or Wilcox or the players - no, it’s all the fans fault that we’re an absolute embarrassment. 

[disconnect]

On 23/09/2023 at 17:14, Turkish said:

Him, Edozie and Armstrong looked like making stuff happen. All three of them probably don’t start because they like to run with the ball not stop and turn back

How sad that after Selles, we have another manager who insists on ignoring any positive or creative players for their favourites. Sadly, Martin's favourites like to pass the ball a hundred times and stroll around, but don't like to tackle or score goals (or complete a pass when there's opposition players lurking for a breakaway).

[Saint_clark]

I get the feeling that Martin is trying to replicate Peps style without understanding why they do certain things that they do. 

[hypochondriac]

On 23/09/2023 at 17:14, Turkish said:

Him, Edozie and Armstrong looked like making stuff happen. All three of them probably don’t start because they like to run with the ball not stop and turn back

Sulemana, Edozie, Alcaraz and S.Armstrong should be on the pitch most games to be honest. Alcaraz has been underwhelming but we know what he can do and he certainly deserves more of a chance than the likes of Smallbone, A.Armstrong and Fraser who shouldn't be starting games. 

[kenneth_kenobi]

Can't paste a pic of it here, but there was one occasion second half where there were FOUR Boro players bearing down on our goal and only Manning anywhere near them, luckily the guy with the ball in the middle went for goal himself and Baz saved it with his legs.  All because we INISIST on playing the ball BACKWARDS from corners and then losing it near halfway.  There were other similar ones, where they blasted over or hit the post.  We could have lost by 5 or 6.  AND how many times did WE look like scoring???  None

Edited 25 September, 2023 by kenneth_kenobi

[Badger]

21 hours ago, stknowle said:

I thought he looked good against Sheff W. Sadly that is the ONLY game I can say that about that I've ever seen him play in. Seems to think he's a Pirlo type tempo-setter 🤡

Sheff Weds, he looked better as they were crap, and he had JWP alongside him, probably telling him what to do. We’ve lost that influence in mf now. 

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, kenneth_kenobi said:

Can't paste a pic of it here, but there was one occasion second half where there were FOUR Boro players bearing down on our goal and only Manning anywhere near them, luckily the guy with the ball in the middle went for goal himself and Baz saved it with his legs.  All because we INISIST on playing the ball BACKWARDS from corners and then losing it near halfway.  There were other similar ones, where they blasted over or hit the post.  We could have lost by 5 or 6.  AND how many times did WE look like scoring???  None

This is the worry I've had in every single game we've played - our full backs get way too exposed. I think this system makes Manning look a hell of a lot worse than he actually is, which is really weird as he's someone Martin supposedly knows the strengths and weaknesses of.

I'm pretty sure Swansea didn't do the inverted full back nonsense though, that certainly isn't helping things as the space down the flanks is just ridiculous. Every team we have played, even Gillingham, have targeted that.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

The only time we look like making something happen is when a player goes off script.  I get there are lots of new players.  I get we're trying to instill a new playing system.  But we still have enough quality to be creating a lot more.  

 

I kind of accept the defensive mistakes as they are doing what the Manager has asked.  I have no idea what is going on in the final third and it was only when KWP decided to go for a dribble and liberate the rest of the team that we showed any sort of genuine intent and imagination in the final third.

[Chez]

4 hours ago, Mr Brightside said:

Apologies if posted already, but hats off to those that went. 👏

Interesting that Boro have moved away fans into the corner rather than behind the goal, as it used to be.

[Chez]

2 hours ago, kenneth_kenobi said:

Can't paste a pic of it here, but there was one occasion second half where there were FOUR Boro players bearing down on our goal and only Manning anywhere near them, luckily the guy with the ball in the middle went for goal himself and Baz saved it with his legs.  

That's when I blew my top on Saturday.

I can understand that when you are chasing a game, there may be an occasion when you get caught on the break and are badly short handed, but it was our corner and, like you say, we took it short, went backwards, got caught and were in massive trouble. It was totally avoidable. What really fucked me off though was the fact this has now happened several times - finding ourselves three or four vs one immediately after our own corner.

How on earth can this happen multiple times without it being addressed?

Managers seem to pride themselves on level of detail and meticulous preparation. Getting caught on our own corners now seems to be a regular thing. Why are the coaches not spotting this when half this forum is?  

[James]

11 minutes ago, Chez said:

That's when I blew my top on Saturday.

I can understand that when you are chasing a game, there may be an occasion when you get caught on the break and are badly short handed, but it was our corner and, like you say, we took it short, went backwards, got caught and were in massive trouble. It was totally avoidable. What really fucked me off though was the fact this has now happened several times - finding ourselves three or four vs one immediately after our own corner.

How on earth can this happen multiple times without it being addressed?

Managers seem to pride themselves on level of detail and meticulous preparation. Getting caught on our own corners now seems to be a regular thing. Why are the coaches not spotting this when half this forum is?  

I am sure the coaches are spotting it - whether they are able to do anything about it, whilst remaining loyal to the "system", is another matter. I suspect the attitude is that these are individual errors and not flaws in the "system" - they are, of course, individual errors but the kamikaze set up means that a simple mistake can lead to almost a freebie goal for the opposition.

My concern with keeping Martin is that he assumes, blindly, that if we "get used to" the system and cut out individual errors then all will be well but that's effectively putting the season on a tightrope. We can't recruit the players we have (a fair few of them Premier League cast offs) and then expect them to execute a highly intricate game plan almost flawlessly. There is a reason other clubs don't play like City do, its because they can't and they have to be pragmatic. It doesn't appear as though RM is willing to be pragmatic.

I am also struggling to understand the consistent references to Swansea - as if they are the gold plated example of what RM is trying the achieve here - they finished 9th...when we do the same I suspect we'll be told that all is well for next season and when we struggle we'll be told its because any summer additions aren't used to the system (rinse repeat = mid table obscurity at best).

Edited 25 September, 2023 by James

[malcolm waldron]

2 hours ago, Chez said:

That's when I blew my top on Saturday.

I can understand that when you are chasing a game, there may be an occasion when you get caught on the break and are badly short handed, but it was our corner and, like you say, we took it short, went backwards, got caught and were in massive trouble. It was totally avoidable. What really fucked me off though was the fact this has now happened several times - finding ourselves three or four vs one immediately after our own corner.

How on earth can this happen multiple times without it being addressed?

Managers seem to pride themselves on level of detail and meticulous preparation. Getting caught on our own corners now seems to be a regular thing. Why are the coaches not spotting this when half this forum is?  

Saw this for the first time very early on in the Leicester game (obviously we were already a goal down) and was worried about what it means when mistakes are made.  I think there were 3 occasions in that first half when it was Smallbone scrambling back with Mavididi (?) sprinting behind him and luckily managing to get a pass back to Bazunu.  We're all seeing this problem so clearly - so why the hell are the players being asked to set up in this suicidal way?