Ross Stewart

[FarehamSaintJames]

In my work if they go past a period of time for absence they’re subject to a “fitness to work” assessment.

I’m assuming this won’t apply in this instance. 🤣

[Chez]

11 hours ago, ally_uk said:

If he is incapable of playing football due to long term injuries, release and move on why the silence ?

Legally, you can't terminate a contract of a player because he got injured.

[Saint Billy]

What a cock up of a signing.

[Sheaf Saint]

28 minutes ago, Chez said:

Legally, you can't terminate a contract of a player because he got injured.

No, but if all the medical evidence suggests that he will never return to full fitness then you can surely negotiate a settlement of some kind.

[Chez]

4 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

No, but if all the medical evidence suggests that he will never return to full fitness then you can surely negotiate a settlement of some kind.

Sure, you can always negotiate a settlement, but the player has to agree to it. If I was him I'd demand 100% of the wage. Why settle for anything less than that? He hasn't done anything `wrong'.

[John Boy Saint]

19 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

What a cock up of a signing.

Especially given the levels of wonder the medical world operates at, and even more so the science of sports medicine. Someone must have had an inkling of the various scenarios with the injury he was carrying at signing. 
 

[Ken Tone]

14 minutes ago, Chez said:

Sure, you can always negotiate a settlement, but the player has to agree to it. If I was him I'd demand 100% of the wage. Why settle for anything less than that? He hasn't done anything `wrong'.

Do we not have some sort of insurance to cover this? 

[Lighthouse]

57 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

No, but if all the medical evidence suggests that he will never return to full fitness then you can surely negotiate a settlement of some kind.

That conversation would basically be us saying, "hey Ross, I know your career is effectively over at the age of 28, but how do you fancy taking maybe 75% of your last ever decent pay cheque, instead of all of it?"

[Holmes_and_Watson]

I see that Weston already answered with employee. Above and beyond the base contracts, there will be the player's Nivea commercials or whatever. That could be paid/routed to a player's own company, registered in your nearest tax haven, as the player isn't representing the club.

Things like image rights etc, when they are representing the club would be something different again. Unless drawn up separately, probably part of the employee contract too for tax purposes?

There will be medical insurance and the club will have made a claim. The insurers will be all over it, due to player's injury record/ signed if not fully fit. Assessors worth their salt will also mine through any left field Rasmus comments to see if he mentions signing players who have iffy fitness records, but who could come good. The club's insurance risk/ payments would be impacted.

 

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

No, but if all the medical evidence suggests that he will never return to full fitness then you can surely negotiate a settlement of some kind.

Why would he agree to that? Plus in any case, the club has insurance for player injuries. 

[Sheaf Saint]

2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why would he agree to that? 

Because it may be the case that, although he's unable to play at elite level, he could still continue playing at a much lower level, and would need to be released from his current contract before he can sign another one elsewhere.

Pure speculation, of course. But not outside the realms of possibility.

[trousers]

6 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Because it may be the case that, although he's unable to play at elite level, he could still continue playing at a much lower level, and would need to be released from his current contract before he can sign another one elsewhere.

Pure speculation, of course. But not outside the realms of possibility.

Yep, was about to suggest the same 👍

[Matthew Le God]

19 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Because it may be the case that, although he's unable to play at elite level, he could still continue playing at a much lower level, and would need to be released from his current contract before he can sign another one elsewhere.

Pure speculation, of course. But not outside the realms of possibility.

1) Can you give a comparable example of that happening?

2) We will be at a lower non elite level next season. If we didn't play him he'd be better off seeing out the remaining time on his contract and going out on loan if he wanted games. There is no inventive for him to lose some of the worth on his contract.

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said:

1) Can you give a comparable example of that happening?

2) We will be at a lower non elite level next season. If we didn't play him he'd be better off seeing out the remaining time on his contract and going out on loan if he wanted games. There is no inventive for him to lose some of the worth on his contract.

There doesn't need to be a previous example of things happening, they can happen for the first time in any walk of life.

[Lighthouse]

26 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Because it may be the case that, although he's unable to play at elite level, he could still continue playing at a much lower level, and would need to be released from his current contract before he can sign another one elsewhere.

Pure speculation, of course. But not outside the realms of possibility.

He's injured, he can't play football, the standard of league he's in is irrelevant. I've no idea what you think his motivation would be to do this, or what you think any lower league club's motivation would be to offer him a contract for anything more than a few buttons. He'll be doing anything he can to try and get fit here, because if he can there's a reasonable chance he'll play. If he can't, there no point in being injured at some L2 club on a much lower salary.

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

There doesn't need to be a previous example of things happening, they can happen for the first time in any walk of life.

It happening at least somewhere in world football in the last 150 years would give it a bit more credibility. It hasn't because number 2) happens instead.

[Sheaf Saint]

50 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

1) Can you give a comparable example of that happening?

2) We will be at a lower non elite level next season. If we didn't play him he'd be better off seeing out the remaining time on his contract and going out on loan if he wanted games. There is no inventive for him to lose some of the worth on his contract.

No, I can't. I said it was pure speculation about something that's not impossible, but admittedly not likely.

And when I said lower level, I was thinking more like non-league than just one division down. Would have thought that was obvious really, but then I should have realised who it was I was replying to.

[Sheaf Saint]

47 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

He's injured, he can't play football, the standard of league he's in is irrelevant. I've no idea what you think his motivation would be to do this, or what you think any lower league club's motivation would be to offer him a contract for anything more than a few buttons. He'll be doing anything he can to try and get fit here, because if he can there's a reasonable chance he'll play. If he can't, there no point in being injured at some L2 club on a much lower salary.

Yeah, fair enough. Like I said, it was just speculation.

Anyway it's all moot really, because if he has to retire due to injury then, as some gave already suggested, the club will have some kind of insurance in place for that eventuality.

[Matthew Le God]

Just now, Sheaf Saint said:

No, I can't. I said it was pure speculation about something that's not impossible, but admittedly not likely.

And when I said lower level, I was thinking more like non-league than just one division down. Would have thought that was obvious really, but then I should have realised who it was I was replying to.

The issue is not his ability, like @Lighthouse mentioned. The issue is his injury record. In ability he is at the very least a Championship level player. If he is fit enough to play non league games he is fit enough to play Championship games. Your thinking is flawed.

[Gloucester Saint]

15 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

The issue is not his ability, like @Lighthouse mentioned. The issue is his injury record. In ability he is at the very least a Championship level player. If he is fit enough to play non league games he is fit enough to play Championship games. Your thinking is flawed.

One purple patch on a very small sample of 13 games at most, we are not talking a Billy Sharp or Jordan Rhodes track-record. Gabbiadini would have scored 30 goals a season based on his first half-dozen Saints matches but it was out of kilter with the rest of his track record. Stewart is a League One/SPL lower/Scottish Champ striker.

Edited January 19 by Gloucester Saint

[Sparkkyy]

13 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

The issue is not his ability, like @Lighthouse mentioned. The issue is his injury record. In ability he is at the very least a Championship level player. If he is fit enough to play non league games he is fit enough to play Championship games. Your thinking is flawed.

Are you still expecting him being prolific next season? You suggested it only the other day 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Because it may be the case that, although he's unable to play at elite level, he could still continue playing at a much lower level, and would need to be released from his current contract before he can sign another one elsewhere.

Pure speculation, of course. But not outside the realms of possibility.

Frustration of contract could be a possibility if he is unable to fulfil his part of the contract??

[Gloucester Saint]

3 minutes ago, Sparkkyy said:

Are you still expecting him being prolific next season? You suggested it only the other day 

League One or two maybe but 13 games is simply nowhere near the record of a Billy Sharp, Jordan Rhodes, or an Adam Armstrong at Championship level over several seasons. 

MLG has to give way on this point, the facts aren’t changing. He’s had his shorts pulled down.

Edited January 19 by Gloucester Saint

[Sparkkyy]

3 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

He’s had his shorts pulled down, again. 

 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

The issue is not his ability, like @Lighthouse mentioned. The issue is his injury record. In ability he is at the very least a Championship level player. If he is fit enough to play non league games he is fit enough to play Championship games. Your thinking is flawed.

Players returning from injuries may be considered fully fit to play. However, due to the nature of the injury are simply not able to do the same things as they used to. Losing that hard of pace is a well worn example. A player fit to return in non league games may be fit to start. Championship game. However, the outcome may be very different due to the injuries suffered, and the amount of ability required at each level. Stewart being fit for one level, and perform well at it, does not mean the same would apply at Championship level.

And please reconsider phrases such as"your thinking is flawed." The board is full of examples of you running off to hide when your own arguments are flawed. Normally, that's just part of discussions and banter. But making condescending remarks prevents that from happening.

[Matthew Le God]

5 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

The board is full of examples of you running off to hide when your own arguments are flawed.

Nonsense

[Holmes_and_Watson]

41 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Nonsense

Don't just take my word for it. Directors of football, directors of football operations and directors of football mascots all agree from last week, when you vanished. 🙂 

You're just back from an extended huff, after a long series of being completely wrong, but insisting you were right.  🙂

[Matthew Le God]

17 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Don't just take my word for it. Directors of football, directors of football operations and directors of football mascots all agree from last week, when you vanished. 🙂 

You're just back from an extended huff, after a long series of being completely wrong, but insisting you were right.  🙂

1) What do you think I said about those things that was wrong?

2) What job do you think Ross Wilson had at Saints?

 

[ErwinK1961]

3 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

The issue is not his ability, like @Lighthouse mentioned. The issue is his injury record. In ability he is at the very least a Championship level player. If he is fit enough to play non league games he is fit enough to play Championship games. Your thinking is flawed.

There are plenty of players who have had to step down to non league level because their bodies can’t take the rigours of higher level football. Training once a week and playing on a Saturday takes a different level of fitness to training every day and playing against top quality opposition.

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, ErwinK1961 said:

There are plenty of players who have had to step down to non league level because their bodies can’t take the rigours of higher level football. Training once a week and playing on a Saturday takes a different level of fitness to training every day and playing against top quality opposition.

That isn't what I asked for.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

45 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

1) What do you think I said about those things that was wrong?

2) What job do you think Ross Wilson had at Saints?

 

1)

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/topic/61105-new-manager/page/47/

In summary:
You insisted that Director of Football and Director of Football Operations were the same thing. "What difference do you think the one extra word makes" (also funny, considering you're pedantry about wording)
When the difference was pointed out, and when the difference a word can make to a title, you tried and failed to shift the goalposts and rann off hiding.

Oddly, just earlier today you were happy to accept everyone else was right. Just without ever,ever having to admit it.

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/topic/61307-johannes-spors-potential-sporting-director/page/2/

2) I've not mentioned Ross Wilson, so you may be having a multi-pedantry fail across threads.

 

[Matthew Le God]

5 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

1)

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/topic/61105-new-manager/page/47/

In summary:
You insisted that Director of Football and Director of Football Operations were the same thing. "What difference do you think the one extra word makes" (also funny, considering you're pedantry about wording)
When the difference was pointed out, and when the difference a word can make to a title, you tried and failed to shift the goalposts and rann off hiding.

Oddly, just earlier today you were happy to accept everyone else was right. Just without ever,ever having to admit it.

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/topic/61307-johannes-spors-potential-sporting-director/page/2/

2) I've not mentioned Ross Wilson, so you may be having a multi-pedantry fail across threads.

1) I asked a question. A question is not a claim. Sherlock Holmes would know that.

2) Ross Wilson had the job title director of football operations when he was atvSaints and he was in charge of transfers and strategy.

[Lord Duckhunter]

17 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

There are plenty of players who have had to step down to non league level because their bodies can’t take the rigours of higher level football. Training once a week and playing on a Saturday takes a different level of fitness to training every day and playing against top quality opposition.

Yep, correct. I played with Dave Jones (not our ex manager, another one),  a Welsh international who had to retire in his early 30’s. Fit as a fiddle, could run all day but his knee couldn’t stand up to the demands of professional football anymore . 

[Sparkkyy]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Yep, correct. I played with Dave Jones (not our ex manager, another one),  a Welsh international who had to retire in his early 30’s. Fit as a fiddle, could run all day but his knee couldn’t stand up to the demands of professional football anymore . 

Did this happen within the last 150 years? Asking for a friend 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

23 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

That isn't what I asked for.

You said that "If he is fit enough to play non league games he is fit enough to play Championship games"

That's plural. So you're equating the fitness requirements of multiple Championship games with that of multiple non league games. "your thinking is flawed" is how you describe anyone who thinks that the fitness requirements of a Championship player are higher than those of a non league player.

Then there are the points being made that players returning to fitness at a certain level, may not be able to be as good at that level due to injury. You've said that "In ability he is at the very least a Championship level player." Sadly, real players don't regain fitness and race back up to their FM potential ability. We won't know the level of his ability until he's back playing from his injury. As pointed out by Erwink and LD, for a start.

[Sunglasses Ron]

5 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Because it may be the case that, although he's unable to play at elite level, he could still continue playing at a much lower level, and would need to be released from his current contract before he can sign another one elsewhere.

Pure speculation, of course. But not outside the realms of possibility.

Yeah, probably possible.

Coming to some agreement would enable him to stop trying to get fit again, move back to where he came from and do whatever he wanted. He’d probably take that in exchange for 75% of his contract or something.

Edited January 19 by Sunglasses Ron

[ErwinK1961]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

That isn't what I asked for.

It’s ok, you got it wrong. Happens to all of us.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

1) I asked a question. A question is not a claim. Sherlock Holmes would know that.

2) Ross Wilson had the job title director of football operations when he was atvSaints and he was in charge of transfers and strategy.

1) "Yes, it does." when someone questioned if we had a DoF, in the traditional sense of the role. When it was pointed out that the person you said was in that role, might not actually have those responsibilities, you reversed into hiding.

2) That's nice. Since it's not part of the point that you reversed into hiding, and it's something you do, I can ignore this.

[Matthew Le God]

10 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

1) "Yes, it does." when someone questioned if we had a DoF, in the traditional sense of the role. When it was pointed out that the person you said was in that role, might not actually have those responsibilities, you reversed into hiding.

2) That's nice. Since it's not part of the point that you reversed into hiding, and it's something you do, I can ignore this.

At no point did I say Bitcon had all the responsibilities Wilcox for example had or that of a traditional DoF. The club made public Bitcon, Parsons and others were sharing aspects of what Wilcox did. You are building a strawman and misrepresenting what I've actually said.

[SuperSAINT]

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

At no point did I say Bitcon had all the responsibilities Wilcox for example had or that of a traditional DoF. The club made public Bitcon, Parsons and others were sharing aspects of what Wilcox did. You are building a strawman and misrepresenting what I've actually said.

Ah. It must have been another 6 year old stamping their foot every time someone mentioned that we could do with a DoF to provide strategic oversight/ football experience to our club. 🙂

[Midfield_General]

15 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

1) "Yes, it does." when someone questioned if we had a DoF, in the traditional sense of the role. When it was pointed out that the person you said was in that role, might not actually have those responsibilities, you reversed into hiding.

2) That's nice. Since it's not part of the point that you reversed into hiding, and it's something you do, I can ignore this.

 

[Saint_clark]

Just watching the 3rd season of Sunderland till I die, Stewart features heavily. Any updates on him? Is he 2 weeks away? Do we reckon he might actually be useful for us next season?

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

Just watching the 3rd season of Sunderland till I die, Stewart features heavily. Any updates on him? Is he 2 weeks away? Do we reckon he might actually be useful for us next season?

I think it's best we just draw a line under this debacle. Let him go in the summer, we might be able to get some insurance claim out on him.

I feel sorry for him as a person, but from a club point of view he's stolen a wage for 2 years here. Time to get ruthless and stop being someone's rehab home.

Edited Sunday at 19:59 by S-Clarke

[EBS1980]

He’s played 7 games in the last two years! 

[spyinthesky]

11 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I think it's best we just draw a line under this debacle. Let him go in the summer, we might be able to get some insurance claim out on him.

I feel sorry for him as a person, but from a club point of view he's stolen a wage for 2 years here. Time to get ruthless and stop being someone's rehab home.

Agree with you particularly with the comment about Ross Stewart as an individual.

I am sure he is as pissed off about the situation as are all those associated with the club both on and off the pitch.

As I recollect the club gambled on decent players like David Hurst, Charlie George, Perry Groves, Kerry Dixon in the past, all of whom were decent players who suffered injuries which curtailed their playing careers. However none of them suffered as badly as Roscoe.

[Matthew Le God]

19 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I think it's best we just draw a line under this debacle. Let him go in the summer, we might be able to get some insurance claim out on him.

I feel sorry for him as a person, but from a club point of view he's stolen a wage for 2 years here. Time to get ruthless and stop being someone's rehab home.

Why would he accept less than all his remaining wages?