Sunderland 5-0 Southampton

[captainchris]

14 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Yep. Criticising possession-based football becomes irrelevant if, when out of possession, the team just shit themselves and make terrible decisions. Have a look at the image below, it’s from the first goal and we’re attacking with a corner. One desperate punt out from the back from them and their attacker is goal side of our last defender. How on earth is that allowed to happen? And it was far from the only time our whole shape left us exposed and vulnerable when we lost the ball. We can point out individual errors from the defenders and the keepers, but this comes down to shocking organisation in the first place. Russell Martin was a defender Ffs, so I’m a bit worried that he allows his teams to set up like this.

Abysmal organisation from the manager. Every game the same, is he not able to comprehend the mechanics of a football match…
Wide open every game wtaf !

[Jack]

Our set up was horrible for the counter for the first goal with 11 players in the final third but so many individual errors for the goals: 

2nd - Stu bottles the tackle and turns his back on it

3rd - Baz near post 

4th - Holgate double howler 

5th - Downes doesn’t even get off the ground to challenge the header 

[tisspahars]

Some thoughts......

 No doubt about it - that was an absolutely dismal capitulation, appalling from start to finish from players and manager alike. However! Whilst not for the size of it perhaps, there are several mitigating reasons for a bad day at the office. The timing of the transfer window combined with how hectic ours was, the KO time and the location, away to a hostile rival with an axe to grind, and with reasons why plenty of 1st choice players either couldn't play or it was thought best not to risk it, made for a pretty perfect storm imo. Prior to the game most (not all, MOST) of the fans on here were pretty happy with what they had seen from the manager thus far, delighted with the end of the window and pretty confident for what lay ahead. Well you've now got three choices - immediately do a 360 and call for MARTIN OUT, wait and see what the next few tough games tell us or remain supremely confident that WE WILL PISS THIS LEAGUE. The middle one seems the fairly obvious choice to me.

There will clearly be a very different look to the team for the Leicester game and Che, Shea and THB starting will clearly (imo) make a huge difference. I think RM tried to get through to the break (after the crazy window) with a fudge of a team for one game and it backfired spectacularly. I'm confident it won't happen again. As to lazy forum reaction -"Contending teams simply don't lose 5-0! No way we are doing anything this season!" - too many examples to list as to that bollocks but for a start how about the Man U team that was the most successful in PL history that shipped 5 at Newcastle and 6 to us the following week before winning the league (again)? And wily old fox Mowbray was always going to have our number was he? Maybe he could use his wiles to get above us in the league? Or maybe we should go for Carrick who so many wanted in the summer and is now presiding over a car-crash? And our cracks have been papered over till now have they - what about Leicester who hadn't been winning ANY of their games till late on (having played dross thus far) and just lost at home to Hull? I could go on....😉

Yesterday was awful - absolutely awful - but I do think there are, as well as huge lessons to learn, lots of reasons why it really might look a bizarre slip in a great season.

   

 

[Charlie Wayman]

7 minutes ago, captainchris said:

Abysmal organisation from the manager. Every game the same, is he not able to comprehend the mechanics of a football match…
Wide open every game wtaf !

We can see where this is heading but people need to be patient. First of all stop listening to the bullsh*t that we have the best squad of players in the league. We don't. We may have one or two gems and a few really promising prospects but the majority are at best average Championship players. There is a lot of work to do at the individual level to bring the best out of each player assuming they are all capable of taking the messages and coaching on-board and have the skills to apply those principles routinely day-to-day.

Secondly, if there really is a definable system of play behind Martin's rhetoric it will take months to drill it into the heads of individual players and even longer to establish a best XI and hone it into an effective whole. 

So expect the period up to Christmas to be a bit hit and miss, probably more miss than hit. Yesterday was clearly a big miss, some of our results so far have been borderline but we have yet to see a big hit.

It serves no useful purpose to ignite the blame game seconds after the result at the Stadium of Light - incidentally that should apply to Mr Martin as well, the players he has are only as good as the coaching they receive so he shouldn't really stand there after the match and imply an us and them responsibility. 

 

[S-Clarke]

5 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

We can see where this is heading but people need to be patient. First of all stop listening to the bullsh*t that we have the best squad of players in the league. We don't. We may have one or two gems and a few really promising prospects but the majority are at best average Championship players. There is a lot of work to do at the individual level to bring the best out of each player assuming they are all capable of taking the messages and coaching on-board and have the skills to apply those principles routinely day-to-day.

Secondly, if there really is a definable system of play behind Martin's rhetoric it will take months to drill it into the heads of individual players and even longer to establish a best XI and hone it into an effective whole. 

So expect the period up to Christmas to be a bit hit and miss, probably more miss than hit. Yesterday was clearly a big miss, some of our results so far have been borderline but we have yet to see a big hit.

It serves no useful purpose to ignite the blame game seconds after the result at the Stadium of Light - incidentally that should apply to Mr Martin as well, the players he has are only as good as the coaching they receive so he shouldn't really stand there after the match and imply an us and them responsibility. 

 

I don't buy that, at Championship level our squad is a top team. The depth on the bench yesterday was ridiculous. 

So because of that I don't think we can afford to 'bed in over half a season' - it simply has to be bearing fruits before Christmas, otherwise as sad as it will be Martin will be for the chop. This team needs to aim for the top 2, and you don't get Top 2 by bedding in for the first half of the season.

[AlexLaw76]

8 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

We can see where this is heading but people need to be patient. First of all stop listening to the bullsh*t that we have the best squad of players in the league. We don't. We may have one or two gems and a few really promising prospects but the majority are at best average Championship players. There is a lot of work to do at the individual level to bring the best out of each player assuming they are all capable of taking the messages and coaching on-board and have the skills to apply those principles routinely day-to-day.

Secondly, if there really is a definable system of play behind Martin's rhetoric it will take months to drill it into the heads of individual players and even longer to establish a best XI and hone it into an effective whole. 

So expect the period up to Christmas to be a bit hit and miss, probably more miss than hit. Yesterday was clearly a big miss, some of our results so far have been borderline but we have yet to see a big hit.

It serves no useful purpose to ignite the blame game seconds after the result at the Stadium of Light - incidentally that should apply to Mr Martin as well, the players he has are only as good as the coaching they receive so he shouldn't really stand there after the match and imply an us and them responsibility. 

 

Madness IMO

[grezz]

15 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

We can see where this is heading but people need to be patient. First of all stop listening to the bullsh*t that we have the best squad of players in the league. We don't. We may have one or two gems and a few really promising prospects but the majority are at best average Championship players. There is a lot of work to do at the individual level to bring the best out of each player assuming they are all capable of taking the messages and coaching on-board and have the skills to apply those principles routinely day-to-day.

Secondly, if there really is a definable system of play behind Martin's rhetoric it will take months to drill it into the heads of individual players and even longer to establish a best XI and hone it into an effective whole. 

So expect the period up to Christmas to be a bit hit and miss, probably more miss than hit. Yesterday was clearly a big miss, some of our results so far have been borderline but we have yet to see a big hit.

It serves no useful purpose to ignite the blame game seconds after the result at the Stadium of Light - incidentally that should apply to Mr Martin as well, the players he has are only as good as the coaching they receive so he shouldn't really stand there after the match and imply an us and them responsibility. 

 

He puts the right players in the right places and we have a team that should be there or thereabouts. I think a lot of us fans see the same 'anomalies' about players and team selections so I sometimes wonder why the professionals do not see it. Granted they have more data and background to go on than we do but some of these things seem so obvious.

Case in point (for me) is Alcaraz. Yes, he didn't have his best game against QPR but for me he starts every time. His major attribute, which he mostly backs up with his talent, is his attitude. He's a fighter, I suspect he is a bad loser and I want guys like that in my team. I want to see passion and a will to win over anything else at all and I wouldn't give a toss at getting beat 5-0 if I thought we went down fighting, so give me 11 guys with that attitude over more skillful players without it every time. So not starting him makes us a softer touch in my opinion. I would expect our profesiosnal football people to see that too or maybe it's just me being wrong, I don't know.

Then we have AA. Blindingly obvious he can't play the 9 role but our professoinal football people apparently can't see that. Why? I could go on about several areas but you guys all know it already so I won't bother.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Where does one start to analyse that shit show? Most points already very well made, but for me there’s some key comments.

1. Martin is arguably the best Manager available to deploy the Pep type system at this level, so as it seems SFC are intent on utilising this system, where do we go if it still doesn’t work with Martin? He’ll be given a lot of rope before he’s hung out and I can foresee many more days not unlike yesterday unfortunately.

2. We’re trying to play like Pep’s Man City but with players that are of a lower quality in many aspects - their brain function, ball skill, fitness etc. Can it work? I’m very sceptical because so far I’m seeing a group of players struggling to deploy what’s being asked of them tactically. They’re just not good enough collectively to pass through the lines meaning easy turnovers and counter attacks which in turn can’t be defended. And importantly, opposition clubs have been given a clear blueprint on how to get at us and win.

3. Bazunu is not a Championship level keeper, let alone Prem. I read lots about his hands, but worse still he is not athletic enough to get to shots which should be bread and butter for a good keeper. It’s his legs which don’t get him anywhere near some of these long range shots. Plus his positional sense is poor too. A really bad decision to persist with him.

Overall, I really fear for our season and I don’t mean in terms of promotion. No, I mean fundamentally the team mentality will start to erode very quickly if the key issues are not sorted now and it’s looking pretty damned screwed already. At this point based on the evidence before us, I predict we’ll be languishing lower mid-table by Christmas…about 14th…possibly worse. Martin and his team have a huge job on their hands to figure out how to make this system work.

[gordonToo]

26 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

So because of that I don't think we can afford to 'bed in over half a season' - it simply has to be bearing fruits before Christmas, otherwise as sad as it will be Martin will be for the chop. This team needs to aim for the top 2, and you don't get Top 2 by bedding in for the first half of the season

Exactly this but Christmas would be far too late. If RM can't organise an effective defence to deliver clean sheet wins before end October he has to go. Yesteday was as much of a poor performance as any I've seen in over 60 years. Absolutely appalling.

[Wade Garrett]

11 hours ago, trousers said:

All bar 6 players will be on international duty though...

There must be a lot of shit international teams around if that’s the case.

[Charlie Mealings]

Did a quick 600 words on Bazunu this morning, post-Sunderland.

I don't have a view on what we should do about him, at least not a clear one.

But if you'd like some nice juicy HINDSIGHT I think Sports Republic's youth-first strategy is weaker when recruiting GKs, and we maybe we could have relaxed it just in that position:

https://www.statemarys.com/p/quick-one-on-bazunu

[stknowle]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

Yep. Criticising possession-based football becomes irrelevant if, when out of possession, the team just shit themselves and make terrible decisions. Have a look at the image below, it’s from the first goal and we’re attacking with a corner. One desperate punt out from the back from them and their attacker is goal side of our last defender. How on earth is that allowed to happen? And it was far from the only time our whole shape left us exposed and vulnerable when we lost the ball. We can point out individual errors from the defenders and the keepers, but this comes down to shocking organisation in the first place. Russell Martin was a defender Ffs, so I’m a bit worried that he allows his teams to set up like this.

Agreed 100% and I'd add that the fact fucking EDOZIE was our last 'defender' makes it all the more worrying.

[adrian lord]

You know a team is in trouble when the "need time to bed in" excuses are starting. 

Edited 3 September, 2023 by adrian lord

[Wade Garrett]

Martin picked an odd line-up yesterday, and that’s on him.

However, the players were largely a load of lazy cunts on the pitch and that is squarely on them.  I would like to think that the manager lost his shit with them and a few home truths were rammed down their throats.

Fucking gutless.  On ability, Bazunu and Mara shouldn’t be anywhere near the starting. XI.  On attitude, there are even more that should be dropped.

I’m not going to hang the manager after a few games, that’s stupid.  He needs to do a lot of man-management though because yesterday’s effort was absolutely pathetic.  

Edited 3 September, 2023 by Wade Garrett

[derry]

Manning and KWP need a good talking to. They are first and foremost defenders and forward support players not as they seem to think the tip of the spear. I think that Fraser and Sulemana should be our wide players. Both are quicker than the full backs so leave them the space to play into. Manning and KWP overlapping just gets in the way and furthermore takes them out of the loop as defenders. I have come to the conclusion that Charles is a must as a defensive midfielder. If Adams or eventually Stewart is the CF then we need two attacking midfielders and it looks like A Armstrong and Alcaraz behind the CF is probably the way to go but as the manager's favourite Downes will be accommodated. Again Martin likes the recycling of Smallbone but it doesn't blend.

That makes Sulemana, Armstrong, Alcaraz, Fraser plus Adams or Stewart  the attackers. KWP THB Bednarek and Manning screened by Charles. For me that looks a much more workmanlike team than yesterday's clusterfuck. The whole team needs to accept defensive duties any time we don't have the ball. Edozie as the last man yesterday for the first goal was rediculous. At least two defenders should have been goal side. We need a much more ruthless approach to blocking breakaway attackers. If we want to emulate and copy Man City then do what they do immediately block off any breakaway.

[hypochondriac]

Charles 

THB 

Adams 

Fraser 

Ameyew 

All players who have played as well or better than players in the starting lineup yesterday. Add in Stewart when fit and that's more than half a team different from yesterday's one. 

[saintant]

2 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Yep. Criticising possession-based football becomes irrelevant if, when out of possession, the team just shit themselves and make terrible decisions. Have a look at the image below, it’s from the first goal and we’re attacking with a corner. One desperate punt out from the back from them and their attacker is goal side of our last defender. How on earth is that allowed to happen? And it was far from the only time our whole shape left us exposed and vulnerable when we lost the ball. We can point out individual errors from the defenders and the keepers, but this comes down to shocking organisation in the first place. Russell Martin was a defender Ffs, so I’m a bit worried that he allows his teams to set up like this.

The ref is in a better position than most of our players 🙂

[derry]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

The ref is in a better position than most of our players 🙂

I thought that when I saw the picture.

[Saint Fan CaM]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Charles 

THB 

Adams 

Fraser 

Ameyew 

All players who have played as well or better than players in the starting lineup yesterday. Add in Stewart when fit and that's more than half a team different from yesterday's one. 

Add in Alcarez and it’s starting to look like a real balls up by Martin. No excuses.

[Cabrone]

Nasty result but a good wake up call. This league is dog eat dog and SFC are not going to be given any favours. Leicester next, let's hope this result has sunken in by then and we start to see more urgency.

[Gloucester Saint]

16 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

Someone reminded me of the Norwich 1 - 7 Colchester L1 game from all those years back, they won the league that year.

So there are reasons to believe it's just a blip, but the goals we have conceded generally in all games suggest it is a more ingrained issue.

I was at a stag weekend in Norwich and was at that one. The normally more placid Norwich fans gave the team and the board hell, two fans were banned for throwing their season tickets at Gunn in the dugout. The atmosphere will turn toxic v Leicester if there’s further repeats of yesterday and with the internationals there’s no time to get an experienced coach in to get the back four and midfield organised because I’m losing confidence in Martin to do it. Just the basics.

Norwich made some swift changes which transformed them. Firstly, Paul Lambert was Colchester manager and they moved for him. Gunn had bought an Australian keeper who made Bazanu look like Gordon Banks. They paid off his contract. Ostemebor played the Holgate performance and was frozen out, eventually coming to Saints for a few games after Norwich also paid him up. If the next couple of games are showing the side as equally disorganised and open, then it’s either someone like Pulis as a short-term mentor to help Russell organise and tighten up off the ball during the week, or it’s goodbye. I can’t see SR sitting on their hands after the Jones debacle. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Add in Alcarez and it’s starting to look like a real balls up by Martin. No excuses.

But also cause for hope that this was hopefully a one off. 

[DT]

3 hours ago, captainchris said:

Abysmal organisation from the manager. Every game the same, is he not able to comprehend the mechanics of a football match…
Wide open every game wtaf !

It's like an Under 10s game. And a bad one at that. Manager (still) seems clueless on defence, but why players don't commit a foul to slow it down and regroup is naiive in the extreme. I haven't changed my position - still think we will finish lower mid-table, because of our inability to shake off this allergy to decent keepers, or to attending to building a squad from a secure base and not being easy to beat first. 

The optimist in me says that at least Burnley also showed that they were vulnerable at first, before going on a big run and winning the league. Hope RM is as good as Vincent Kompany (at realising his mistakes and putting them right)

[Charlie Wayman]

4 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

I don't buy that, at Championship level our squad is a top team. The depth on the bench yesterday was ridiculous. 

So because of that I don't think we can afford to 'bed in over half a season' - it simply has to be bearing fruits before Christmas, otherwise as sad as it will be Martin will be for the chop. This team needs to aim for the top 2, and you don't get Top 2 by bedding in for the first half of the season.

Top two sounds good but is not an automatic right and on the evidence of yesterday we are million miles away from being the irresistible force in this league. It will take time to build and settle the team whether we like to hear that or not. Although Wilcox and RM echo the SR mantra of promotion this year and whilst that certainly will be the ambition of several clubs including ours you have to question whether they really believe ("bet your house on it "level) that it's possible first time around with all the changes that have taken place.

If it's a one year project then fine but the odds are that they know and as some of us sense that it will take a little longer than that. People don't always want to handle the truth, to paraphrase Jack Nicholson

So No, RM will not be going anywhere this side of Christmas, as not being in the top two by then will not be regarded in any way, shape or form as an abysmal failure. That's why all of us should avoid ill thought through criticism so early in the season. 

Realism must temper optimism without pessimism! 

Edited 3 September, 2023 by Charlie Wayman

[ally_uk]

I've had time to process: 

Why do our managers continuously try and be clever and play players out of position. Conclusion it never has worked stop doing it. 

Bazunu is a liability said it last season has wrists like weetabix can't save toffee.... Why we didn't strengthen the GK with experience is beyond me. 

Holgate why did we sign him? Can somebody anwser that ? I'm sorry but just looked totally out of depth and useless. 

Manning ? Is this lad capable of tackling ? I'd rather of kept Perraud. 

This fancy play it out from the back nonsense might work with the likes of City but for us it's gonna seriously bite us in the ass. Opposition will counter with ease. 

We need to go back to basics and play Charles and Downes as def mids. 

Adams up top 

Bellis and Bednerek  is Kotchap still here ? 

Looking at it now our centre back options are pretty crap If Kotchap is off...

 

 

 

 

[lambtiss]

25 minutes ago, ally_uk said:

I've had time to process: 

Why do our managers continuously try and be clever and play players out of position. Conclusion it never has worked stop doing it. 

Bazunu is a liability said it last season has wrists like weetabix can't save toffee.... Why we didn't strengthen the GK with experience is beyond me. 

Holgate why did we sign him? Can somebody anwser that ? I'm sorry but just looked totally out of depth and useless. 

Manning ? Is this lad capable of tackling ? I'd rather of kept Perraud. 

This fancy play it out from the back nonsense might work with the likes of City but for us it's gonna seriously bite us in the ass. Opposition will counter with ease. 

We need to go back to basics and play Charles and Downes as def mids. 

Adams up top 

Bellis and Bednerek  is Kotchap still here ? 

Looking at it now our centre back options are pretty crap If Kotchap is off...

 

 

 

 

Nailed it

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Meanwhile at the Holgate house...

"I looked around, and the full backs had just vanished! Both of 'em! "inverted" what? I'm just getting to know faces, and none of them ended up where they were at training! So, I covered there, and that time I pushed up because our DM wasn't at DM. I'm just glad no one's pointing at me. I didn't know what the hell was going on!" 🙂

[Morse]

I'm amazed how many think we've got the best squad in the Championship. Now I'm not up to speed with most other Championship squads but ours looks bang average to me. 

How many championship teams would Mara, Bazz, Bednarek etc etc walk into? 

[skintsaint]

48 minutes ago, Morse said:

How many championship teams would Mara, Bazz, Bednarek etc etc walk into? 

15

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

2 hours ago, ally_uk said:

I've had time to process: 

Why do our managers continuously try and be clever and play players out of position. Conclusion it never has worked stop doing it. 

Bazunu is a liability said it last season has wrists like weetabix can't save toffee.... Why we didn't strengthen the GK with experience is beyond me. 

Holgate why did we sign him? Can somebody anwser that ? I'm sorry but just looked totally out of depth and useless. 

Manning ? Is this lad capable of tackling ? I'd rather of kept Perraud. 

This fancy play it out from the back nonsense might work with the likes of City but for us it's gonna seriously bite us in the ass. Opposition will counter with ease. 

We need to go back to basics and play Charles and Downes as def mids. 

Adams up top 

Bellis and Bednerek  is Kotchap still here ? 

Looking at it now our centre back options are pretty crap If Kotchap is off...

 

 

 

 

This is particularly frustrating. AA plays much better as a no.8 and crap as a no.9, and RM has seen this in previous games so why play him at no.9 again?

Shea played well when covering for Stephens the week before and before that he did well as a defensive midfielder (almost in the Wanyama, Romeu mould), but when he came on, why put him at right back?

And how on earth did he think three lightweights in midfield (Smallbone, Downes and SA) would work? Like you say, put Charles in there to add some muscle.

RM needs to learn from mistakes and build on what works. Next game we should also have Che and Harwood-Bellis ready. I'm thinking this is just a blip. Remember when Ralph's team lost 9-0 (the first time)? After that didn't we go on a good run?

 

[ally_uk]

1 hour ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

This is particularly frustrating. AA plays much better as a no.8 and crap as a no.9, and RM has seen this in previous games so why play him at no.9 again?

Shea played well when covering for Stephens the week before and before that he did well as a defensive midfielder (almost in the Wanyama, Romeu mould), but when he came on, why put him at right back?

And how on earth did he think three lightweights in midfield (Smallbone, Downes and SA) would work? Like you say, put Charles in there to add some muscle.

RM needs to learn from mistakes and build on what works. Next game we should also have Che and Harwood-Bellis ready. I'm thinking this is just a blip. Remember when Ralph's team lost 9-0 (the first time)? After that didn't we go on a good run?

 

Agreed surely the most logical step would be to build cohesion and consistency with player positions.

This chopping around and being clever etc has never worked. 

 

[david in sweden]

Hopefully we might put this down to a very bad day at the office, but we'll know the short term outcome of that after the Midd´boro' away game.

Whilst we still searching for familiar names in the line-up , the new ones are coming in and still learning each others names, let alone position .

Those who have a background at Man. City may know each other, but RM has admitted that it was wrong to throw in Holgate after one day at the club

but to be fair, he wasn't the only one who lost his way, or failed to turn up on the day. 

 

A lot of criticism of Bazunu, but I agree with RM that he doesn't deserve the aggro'  and gets little support from the defence in front of him.

VERY few young keepers at the top level are faultless and it's a tough learning process and few succeed in the short term. 

It is only the (rare) Shilton's in the game who grow into legends, whilst Joe Hart was great as a young man, but then got progressively worse. 

The young ones who shine for a while soon face the realities of life.  Pickford looked great at Sunderland(?).. while conceding a record number of goals

but he is still - arguably - the best England keeper (despite Everton's position) and  Ramsdale and Pope look little better.  Goalkeepers take time

mature  but I have not changed my opinion (in over 60 years)... that good keepers don't reach their peak until around 30 ...and it's a long road.

 

Bednarek has looked the most consistent helper despite his lack of pace and the joy of seeing a full back bombing forward in attack is soon lost

in the chaos when they can't defend properly anyway.  The "new names " will take time to establish themselves, but already those regular critics 

(who canned Prowsey every game).. will have noted that his " roaming role " often filled the midfield gaps that have been so obvious since his departure.

The biggest change in team personnel in my lifetime means it will need time - that we don't have - to sort it out and PDQ. 

[saintant]

3 hours ago, david in sweden said:

Hopefully we might put this down to a very bad day at the office, but we'll know the short term outcome of that after the Midd´boro' away game.

Whilst we still searching for familiar names in the line-up , the new ones are coming in and still learning each others names, let alone position .

Those who have a background at Man. City may know each other, but RM has admitted that it was wrong to throw in Holgate after one day at the club

but to be fair, he wasn't the only one who lost his way, or failed to turn up on the day. 

 

A lot of criticism of Bazunu, but I agree with RM that he doesn't deserve the aggro'  and gets little support from the defence in front of him.

VERY few young keepers at the top level are faultless and it's a tough learning process and few succeed in the short term. 

It is only the (rare) Shilton's in the game who grow into legends, whilst Joe Hart was great as a young man, but then got progressively worse. 

The young ones who shine for a while soon face the realities of life.  Pickford looked great at Sunderland(?).. while conceding a record number of goals

but he is still - arguably - the best England keeper (despite Everton's position) and  Ramsdale and Pope look little better.  Goalkeepers take time

mature  but I have not changed my opinion (in over 60 years)... that good keepers don't reach their peak until around 30 ...and it's a long road.

 

Bednarek has looked the most consistent helper despite his lack of pace and the joy of seeing a full back bombing forward in attack is soon lost

in the chaos when they can't defend properly anyway.  The "new names " will take time to establish themselves, but already those regular critics 

(who canned Prowsey every game).. will have noted that his " roaming role " often filled the midfield gaps that have been so obvious since his departure.

The biggest change in team personnel in my lifetime means it will need time - that we don't have - to sort it out and PDQ. 

I take your point fully on board regarding keepers not maturing until much later than other players. Which begs the question why are we relying on a guy who is 21 years old in a vital season when we are targeting promotion? Not only that, if we know he is not ready, why are we putting him through this tough ordeal and hanging him out to dry as he faces understandable criticism for making too many errors? The excuse that he's all we've got doesn't wash because he's been our first choice through a number of transfer windows now. It feels more like we have adopted the attitude that we paid a lot of money for him so he has to play. I feel sorry for the guy because he's just being treated as cannon fodder and should not be playing because he's nowhere near ready. From where I stand this is still a huge cock-up by the club.

[kenneth_kenobi]

Most teams are going to play that way against us, so we need a plan.  The 2 centre backs and goalkeeper knocking it backwards and forwards for minutes on end when we are LOSING is crazy.

[SFCTony]

Wouldnt see this happen with Eastleigh. Good thing international break is happening this weekend, i'll be going to eastleigh vs gateshead this saturday. any saints fans who want to come along, they're offering 50% off for season ticket holders! 👀

[Chez]

On 03/09/2023 at 10:20, Jack said:

Our set up was horrible for the counter for the first goal with 11 players in the final third but so many individual errors for the goals: 

2nd - Stu bottles the tackle and turns his back on it

3rd - Baz near post 

4th - Holgate double howler 

5th - Downes doesn’t even get off the ground to challenge the header 

Both individual and team errors.

4th is also caused by an absolute woeful pass from Alcaraz that is easily intercepted - and we are in trouble thereafter. And even that possibly over simplifies things, because it's probably that the forwards haven't done enough to give him another option. 

The 5th is partly down to a midfield not doing nearly enough to win the ball and then stop the cross, plus the defence not positioned correctly leading to Downes, caught on the wrong side, `marking' and failing to do enough to stop the header. 

RM alludes to the lack of running/effort and this may have contributed to both those goals. I've not analysed the other three, but I'd guessing lack of movement/running/effort will be a small part of them.

[stknowle]

5 hours ago, saintant said:

I take your point fully on board regarding keepers not maturing until much later than other players. Which begs the question why are we relying on a guy who is 21 years old in a vital season when we are targeting promotion? Not only that, if we know he is not ready, why are we putting him through this tough ordeal and hanging him out to dry as he faces understandable criticism for making too many errors? The excuse that he's all we've got doesn't wash because he's been our first choice through a number of transfer windows now. It feels more like we have adopted the attitude that we paid a lot of money for him so he has to play. I feel sorry for the guy because he's just being treated as cannon fodder and should not be playing because he's nowhere near ready. From where I stand this is still a huge cock-up by the club.

100 per cent agreed. We paid way too much for him, we’re  trying to force it to work as a consequence, and destroying his confidence in the process. To me he just looks like a bag of nerves, and an oddly small one given he’s 6ft 2. 

[suewhistle]

7 hours ago, Chez said:

RM alludes to the lack of running/effort and this may have contributed to both those goals. I've not analysed the other three, but I'd guessing lack of movement/running/effort will be a small part of them.

The first one I was actually thinking at the time that Edozie had made a good run back to defend the break. It then went over to their right and then back again and Edozie had switched off and left the player unmarked, yards away in fact. His head in his hands attitude showed he'd realised his error.

Other goals were also conceded by egregiously bad defending, to the extent that I have to think this will be a useful lesson at the start of the campaign with a completely new team rather than the disaster it would be in the run in.

Whilst I'm worried I'm not surprised at some of the overreactions on here, some posters have form. Having been a die hard to the end against Leicester on a soaking wet Friday night I really don't want to experience that again, and I don't think I will.

 

 

[ecuk268]

This is worth a listen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0gbh0s5

Adam Blackmore, Jo Tessem and Alfie House of the Echo driving back from Sunderland and discussing the match and other things.

 

[saintant]

42 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

This is worth a listen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0gbh0s5

Adam Blackmore, Jo Tessem and Alfie House of the Echo driving back from Sunderland and discussing the match and other things.

 

Quite interesting but couldn't see the point of talking about a cable-tie and the clutch on the radio car.

[Saint Fan CaM]

2 hours ago, suewhistle said:

Having been a die hard to the end against Leicester on a soaking wet Friday night I really don't want to experience that again, and I don't think I will.

Yeah, I was also one that stayed to the end of both 0-9 losses. I also seem to remember that lessons were supposedly learnt after those games too!  I’m sure I’m not the only one who thought I’d never see a drubbing like that again, but the players did a bloody good job of trying on Saturday!  IMO that’s symptomatic of trying to play a system that the squad is not good enough to deliver.

[saintant]

9 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Yeah, I was also one that stayed to the end of both 0-9 losses. I also seem to remember that lessons were supposedly learnt after those games too!  I’m sure I’m not the only one who thought I’d never see a drubbing like that again, but the players did a bloody good job of trying on Saturday!  IMO that’s symptomatic of trying to play a system that the squad is not good enough to deliver.

Agree regarding the system. Possession football and always playing out from the back works if you are Man City. Haven't seen many other clubs make it work and certainly not in the Championship. We now have a great squad of players but the danger is we try to be too clever and the result is we don't get the best out of them. Mix it up and stop being so one dimensional because there are other systems that work as demonstrated by Sunderland's no-nonsense attitude which earned them a 5-0 victory and it should have been more.

[Saint Fan CaM]

58 minutes ago, saintant said:

Agree regarding the system. Possession football and always playing out from the back works if you are Man City. Haven't seen many other clubs make it work and certainly not in the Championship. We now have a great squad of players but the danger is we try to be too clever and the result is we don't get the best out of them. Mix it up and stop being so one dimensional because there are other systems that work as demonstrated by Sunderland's no-nonsense attitude which earned them a 5-0 victory and it should have been more.

That’s right…it was so marked how they moved the ball so much quicker and their passing accuracy was not that much worse than ours as far as I could tell. Their closing down in packs was consistently ruthless and clever in that the Ref let many challenges go that left our players on the ground complaining. It reminded me a little of early Ralphball.

The only thing I’m not so agreed on is the comment that we have a great squad…I think it’s mediocre actually and let down by the undroppables - Bazunu, Manning and Bednarek. Add in Holgate who is rubbish and a system that doesn’t pressure the oppo goal enough and you’ve got a disaster in waiting. You hear about teams who use cohesive hard work to overcome skill - we’re the team those teams love to play. I don’t think Martin has figured that out yet.

[suewhistle]

That's really classy, logging on to an opposition fan's board and then proceeding to show that they can use cut and paste, although typing, punctuation, spelling and syntax are all a bit lacking.

I actually watched it in my local pub with an ex-Sunderland player, but fortunately he is polite and intelligent, even if he did take the mickey a bit.

 

[david in sweden]

On 04/09/2023 at 10:54, saintant said:

I take your point fully on board regarding keepers not maturing until much later than other players. Which begs the question why are we relying on a guy who is 21 years old in a vital season when we are targeting promotion? Not only that, if we know he is not ready, why are we putting him through this tough ordeal and hanging him out to dry as he faces understandable criticism for making too many errors? The excuse that he's all we've got doesn't wash because he's been our first choice through a number of transfer windows now. It feels more like we have adopted the attitude that we paid a lot of money for him so he has to play. I feel sorry for the guy because he's just being treated as cannon fodder and should not be playing because he's nowhere near ready. From where I stand this is still a huge cock-up by the club.

1) Age is not always a factor with goalies, but it takes time and I've always maintained that  a goalie is only as good as the defence in front of him, and he was not  soley responsible for our relegation, and it maybe proves this point that most of the defenders who did play last season... are no longer with the club. Whenever we lose.... the keeper is the first to be blamed, but rarely those strikers who missed several sitters throughout the match.

  Jordan Pickford was no. 1 keeper with Sunderland when they conceded bucket loads of goals the season they were relegated, but he was not                so bad that Everton still paid out 30 million to buy him afterwards. We can already see Everton's lowly place in the table, but he is still first             choice for England.

Lawrie Mc Menemy signed Peter Shilton (then England keeper with 35 caps) in summer 1982 , yet Saints disasterously conceded 18 goals                      in his first 7 games. He was still England keeper ( having gained another 49  (of his 125 caps)...when he left the club 5 years later.     

(2) I don't think that Bazunu is a bad keeper, as one can see by some of the saves he has made, and although he has made a few mistakes,            Russell Martin was (rightly) quick to his defence in saying that he had been let down by teammates who didn't do their jobs.                                     Goalies - even at this level - aren't cheap and Burnley paid out 18 million (?) for Bazunu's successor from Man. City in the summer, but                        they don't seem any better for it. Angus Gunn was a catastrophic buy for us, but now looks the part at Norwich.

(3) We must stick with him now, as the only viable alternative is Alex McCarthy, but in all honesty I think I'd rather play Joe Lumley in a crisis situation.  The answer has to be to bring all the CB's up to standard, and find the right balance PDQ. The Sunderland game was wake-up call, but aside from the Norwich game when we conceded four,  we have done enough to get the point in the other games. We will always concede goals, but must get our strike force upto grade ASAP.  Dropping anyone has a big psychological effect on goalies, but there isn't a lot of alternatives sitting on the bench. 

 

 

Edited 5 September, 2023 by david in sweden

[StrangelyBrown]

15 hours ago, david in sweden said:

goalie is only as good as the defence in front of him

Couldn't agree more. Looking at all the goals we've conceded this year we have the same problem - our players not being close enough to their man and therefore gifting opportunities to the opposition. Im not sure this is about the players, but more related to the marking system and positioning and players just not taking enough responsibility.

[david in sweden]

On 05/09/2023 at 01:07, Saint Fan CaM said:

Yeah, I was also one that stayed to  the end of both 0-9 losses. I also seem to remember that lessons were supposedly learnt after those games too!  I’m sure I’m not the only one who thought I’d never see a drubbing like that again, but the players did a bloody good job of trying on Saturday!  IMO that’s symptomatic of trying to play a system that the squad is not good enough to deliver.

Anyone seeing those 0-9 results for the first time might get a totally wrong idea of the events in the games concerned. Every time I hear them mentioned I either feel

embarrassment ..alternatively ...anger ....because of the refereeing decisions and the circumstances in the two games. 

The Leicester game was played in a howling gale - with Saints playing into the wind - and the turning point came after Bertrand was sent off in... the first 15 minutes (?).

As I recall the " foul " (a clumsy challenge on a wet surface) didn't bother the ref. enough but played on until it was suggested by the VAR official that he take a look at it.

This was a red card in the making ...as the ref. wasn't going to deny it - and make a fool of his refereeing colleague.  It was made worse by Perez's  " Latin antics "  as 

he lay on the ground unsure of whether he would need a stretcher, or a coffin brought onto the pitch.  However, he was still fit enough to score a couple of goals later.

Leicester had their tails up and scored 3 by 20 minutes,  and had 5 by HT.    More goals were inevitable against the disheartened 10 men we had left on the pitch.

 

The Man . Utd game had another scenario. As if playing at Old Trafford wasn't difficult enough,  I always felt that Ralph H. was in part to blame for the result in 

choosing the young Jankewitz  for his debut (either knowing, or ignoring) the fact that the Swiss lad had already picked up 3 yellows and one red card

in early season playing for the U21.   He got attention by claiming he was good enough for the first team and demanded a transfer ...if he didn't get his chance. 

" A loose cannon " whose one minute "leg breaker of a foul"  deserved a red card. With hindsight Ralph might have ignored the idle threat and disciplined him.

Playing the next 88 minutes was purely down to " how many " MU would score.    Even going into the last 10 minutes at 0-6  wasn't a disaster of a scoreline.  

but the travesty that followed made it even worse.    Here referee Dean comes into the picture once again. 

Any United player falling over in the area at Old Trafford is a sure penalty every day of the week,  (according to the Ferguson Book of Old Trafford Rules )

and whilst Bednarek furiously denied any wrongdoing  Dean then gave a red card - without even consulting the VAR screen.   

The United striker concerned (Rashford?)  later admitted that he wasn't fouled, and didn't dive !... but had simply fallen over his own feet.   

Those extra 3 goals were inevitable and I 'm just glad it hadn't happened earlier in the game.

These two games will eternally stay in the record books under " record defeats" but in part might never have been, were it not for referees who might have

used a little common sense in their decision-making.  The entire situation was made worse last week when the now " ex-referee Dean " made the confession 

that he had (historically) made "certain decisions"  - in order to avoid " embarrassing his colleagues " . A more damning admission you  could not wish to hear.

 

As this is on the thread for the Sunderland game ...I can't help feeling that either (the now non-existent VAR) ....or another referee might have paid more

attention to the couple of  penalty shouts that we had during the game. It might not have altered the eventual result, but it would have been less embarrassing,

but , as ever,  it is a brave referee who would give a penalty against the home side, let alone two.        That's my rant over. 

[Fan The Flames]

I'm still really fucked off about this result, you get a bit of a buzz back about the team and they then go and do that.

[John B]

3 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I'm still really fucked off about this result, you get a bit of a buzz back about the team and they then go and do that.

I know what you mean thats Football win some lose some

 

This one really pissed me off First Season in Div 1

 

Southampton vs Blackpool (1-5) Dec 30, 1966

 

Still does I think we even scored first I think we beat Arsenal at home a couple of days earlier

[david in sweden]

On 06/09/2023 at 10:11, John B said:

I know what you mean thats Football win some lose some

 

This one really pissed me off First Season in Div 1

 

Southampton vs Blackpool (1-5) Dec 30, 1966

 

Still does I think we even scored first I think we beat Arsenal at home a couple of days earlier

 

We were having a bad time around then, and had actually lost 1-4 to Arsenal at Highbury  the week before. 

Ironically ......the 1-5 Blackpool  you mentioned  (dec.66)  was a blessing in disguise as we later bought Hugh Fisher from them, 

(he  had masterminded that win), but ironically it was one of only 6  Blackpool wins that season - as they were later relegated.

 

Dave MacLaren was in goal for that game .  Not a good deal, as he had been Wolves goalie the previous season when we beat them

9-3  at The Dell in September 1965 .  MacLaren came in dramatically after Campbell Forsyth broke his leg  v. Liverpool in September 66, 

but we then conceded 44 goals in the first 17 games after MacLaren signed .(!) 

 

... Of course that wasn't the only 1-5 drabbing we suffered around that time... and the notorious "Shilton goal"  came in October 1967

(v. Leicester).. when the wind blew his kick-out way down the ground.... and over the head of Campbell Forsyth in the Saints goal.

 

Edited 7 September, 2023 by david in sweden