Sunderland 5-0 Southampton

[Galway saint]

7 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

A lot of talk about formations and I can understand that but I think you could have arranged those players in any formation you like and if they turn up with the same attitude they did today then I think the result would have been similar.  They were second to every ball, didn't play with any pace and looked as if they didn't care.  I'm not sure that's so much a tactical issue.

FWIW I don't think Martin coaches them to be deliberately slow and ponderous apart from the messing around at the back which I admit is bloody frustrating.  

Anyway, hopefully Martin gets them back on the training pitch and reminds them they've got to fight for the right to play the type of football he wants to implement.

I don’t agree.  I take the view that it was precisely how we were set up and the system/philosophy that made it so bad.  Yes for example Holgate and Mara were dire, bazanu should have saved a couple, but I think anyone who was at the game and who saw it from high up in the stands would say it was a tactical disaster zone. We were cut open so easily it was embarrassing; we were given a lesson by Tony Mowbray.

[gordonToo]

2 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

So, what should the club do now?

Make it clear to Martin that it's a results based business and he'll be ditched pretty damn quick if we get another performance like today's. 

[revolution saint]

Just now, Galway saint said:

I don’t agree.  I take the view that it was precisely how we were set up and the system/philosophy that made it so bad.  Yes for example Holgate and Mara were dire, bazanu should have saved a couple, but I think anyone who was at the game and who saw it from high up in the stands would say it was a tactical disaster zone. We were cut open so easily it was embarrassing; we were given a lesson by Tony Mowbray.

Fair enough. I think there are problems with the formation and always have done but still think the attitude of the players today would have fucked up any formation we put out.

[Crowds]

Bazuno will cost us promotion, when he’s letting in shots straight at him and at his near post. Game after game, especially with the ticytacy sideways crap we are playing we won’t get to the promised land.

Play McCarthy, and utilise our attacking full backs and plethora or attacking pace 

[Block41 Saint]

Going to come in strong here ...

A team looking for autos should never lose 5 fucking 0. What a shambles that was. Martins set up from the beginning of the season has asked for that, we've been wide open in transition and if he doesn't sort it then he can do one. Absolutely shambolic performance and a special mention for the skate we have in goal. He is utterly abysmal. He cost us points last season and he will continue to cost us points this year. League One standard goalkeeper. Get rid. 

[Dr Who?]

5 minutes ago, Block41 Saint said:

Going to come in strong here ...

A team looking for autos should never lose 5 fucking 0. What a shambles that was. Martins set up from the beginning of the season has asked for that, we've been wide open in transition and if he doesn't sort it then he can do one. Absolutely shambolic performance and a special mention for the skate we have in goal. He is utterly abysmal. He cost us points last season and he will continue to cost us points this year. League One standard goalkeeper. Get rid. 

Agree with the invisible keeps we have. I have said it before and will say it again, apart from the Wednesday game we have looked very shaky, but all the changes and the transfer window only closing yesterday, he needs time to get the right starting 11 and shape. We will have a better idea come the end of October. If it is still as shambolic in midfield (defensively) and at the back then something will need to change. 

[Kenilworthy]

5 minutes ago, Block41 Saint said:

Going to come in strong here ...

A team looking for autos should never lose 5 fucking 0. What a shambles that was. Martins set up from the beginning of the season has asked for that, we've been wide open in transition and if he doesn't sort it then he can do one. Absolutely shambolic performance and a special mention for the skate we have in goal. He is utterly abysmal. He cost us points last season and he will continue to cost us points this year. League One standard goalkeeper. Get rid. 

Why has the club had such a blindspot over keepers for years? We don't need a worldclass keeper, just a competent one and there are a good number that have been available recently and affordable for us. This obsession with a ball playing keeper is madness, playing it out from the back just doesn't work. Let's get a keeper that does what keepers are meant to - stop shots. Which rules out McCarthy.

[Harry_SFC]

8 minutes ago, Block41 Saint said:

Going to come in strong here ...

A team looking for autos should never lose 5 fucking 0. What a shambles that was. Martins set up from the beginning of the season has asked for that, we've been wide open in transition and if he doesn't sort it then he can do one. Absolutely shambolic performance and a special mention for the skate we have in goal. He is utterly abysmal. He cost us points last season and he will continue to cost us points this year. League One standard goalkeeper. Get rid. 

I agree about the transition thing. The exact same happened in the Norwich game. Whilst I'm glad we look better on the ball we look so poor without it. I think it's obvious what needs work during the international break. 

[Tamesaint]

18 months ago we played at Villa. We had just beaten Norwich and were comfortably in the top half of the PL. Everything in the garden seemed rosey.

We lost 4 nil , were lucky to get away with that scoreline and everything then turned to shit in the next season and a half. 

Today has a similar feel. So optimistic beforehand we were shit and lucky to get away with a 5 nil defeat. I just hope that history doesn't repeat itself. 

[bpsaint]

7 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

18 months ago we played at Villa. We had just beaten Norwich and were comfortably in the top half of the PL. Everything in the garden seemed rosey.

We lost 4 nil , were lucky to get away with that scoreline and everything then turned to shit in the next season and a half. 

Today has a similar feel. So optimistic beforehand we were shit and lucky to get away with a 5 nil defeat. I just hope that history doesn't repeat itself. 

I’m still waiting for the reaction from that game and the team to put things right as promised to us by Ralph and JWP.

[macca155]

Norwich, Gillingham, and QPR were all warnings for what happened today. Teams lose, it happens. Deal with it and move on, but don't keep making the same mistake.. All the transfer garbage, certainly didn't help, but that team is not going to gain promotion.

A wiley old dog like Mowbray, was always going to pick apart Martin's tactics.

Thankfully that team is unlikely to appear again. Its no good going after Holgate after one game, doesn't help anyone. He'll have better games but will need to earn a place before we see him again.

In contrast Manning is already worrying me.

Manager needs to work on the defence big time. Sort that and gain a few clean sheets. The rest will strangely start to click then.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

8 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

18 months ago we played at Villa. We had just beaten Norwich and were comfortably in the top half of the PL. Everything in the garden seemed rosey.

We lost 4 nil , were lucky to get away with that scoreline and everything then turned to shit in the next season and a half. 

Today has a similar feel. So optimistic beforehand we were shit and lucky to get away with a 5 nil defeat. I just hope that history doesn't repeat itself. 

Norwich had Ralph's tactic sussed too. They just weren't good enough on the day to capitalise on it. Other teams before that, may also have been going the same way. But those in charge, certainly ploughed on, regardless of what they should have picked up from Norwich, and went head on into Villa.

[trousers]

23 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

I agree about the transition thing. The exact same happened in the Norwich game. Whilst I'm glad we look better on the ball we look so poor without it. I think it's obvious what needs work during the international break. 

According to Russell Martin in his post match interview, there are only 6 players who won't be away on international duty, so there won't be any substantial time to work on improvements before the next game.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

3 minutes ago, macca155 said:

Norwich, Gillingham, and QPR were all warnings for what happened today. Teams lose, it happens. Deal with it and move on, but don't keep making the same mistake.. All the transfer garbage, certainly didn't help, but that team is not going to gain promotion.

A wiley old dog like Mowbray, was always going to pick apart Martin's tactics.

Thankfully that team is unlikely to appear again. Its no good going after Holgate after one game, doesn't help anyone. He'll have better games but will need to earn a place before we see him again.

In contrast Manning is already worrying me.

Manager needs to work on the defence big time. Sort that and gain a few clean sheets. The rest will strangely start to click then.

If all it takes is a wiley old dog to unpick intricate, fancy football philosophies, then perhaps we've backed the wrong...um..dog (not horse as that would be mixing metaphors) 🙂

I think it's that we've seen the same mistakes already that's part of the worry. But yes, today was particularly bad, and we've got to deal with it and move on. All that team may not appear again, but there weren't that many new faces in it. Holgate, Downes and Mara making their first league starts I think. That they couldn't lay a glove on Sunderland is worrying (not to be confused with Baz not laying a glove on things, which although worrying, is normal) 🙂

[Turkish]

Now I’m over the embarrassment of that performance you have to see the funny side. One club models itself on Man City with a hipster manager a possession based philosophy a huge opinion of itself whilst the other is managed by Tony Mowbray who run hard through the midfield shoot onsite and lump balls into the back post. Which one wins 5-0?

Edited 2 September, 2023 by Turkish

[saintant]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Now I’m over the embarrassment of that performance you have to see the funny side. One club models itself on Man City with a hipster manager a possession based philosophy a huge opinion of itself whilst the other is managed by Tony Mowbray who run hard through the midfield shoot onsite and lump balls into the back post. Which one wins 5-0?

I know which one of those two systems for the two sides currently works better in the Championship. The jury is out on whether RM can mould us into a Man City lite version that will stand up to the rigours of the season ahead. I'm not holding my breath on the evidence so far even though we have 10 points on the board because RM himself has admitted we've generally not played particularly well.

[West end Saints]

22 minutes ago, saintant said:

I know which one of those two systems for the two sides currently works better in the Championship. The jury is out on whether RM can mould us into a Man City lite version that will stand up to the rigours of the season ahead. I'm not holding my breath on the evidence so far even though we have 10 points on the board because RM himself has admitted we've generally not played particularly well.

The one in 7th or in 9th?

Bad day, but we will be above them. 

 

 

[woodsaint1]

2 hours ago, woodsaint1 said:

Mad to think that RM used to be a CB. 

Also reminding myself of Holgates welcome interview where he talks about one of his strengths being the fact he's a "ball playing CB" 😂😂 a debut to forget

Absolutely zero positives to take from the game, however there are some positives today;

Most of our promotion rivals failed to win

We've been poor defensively for most of the season (Sheff Wed excluded) but its good to have it embarassingly exposed in one hammering, as opposed to a number of 3-2, 3-1 defeats and the cumulative effect of the points dropped (despite feeling we're still in the game). RM needs to address this glaring problem now otherwise it will derail our season.

THB will start the next game

Yes, I'm clutching at straws, but its been a dismal day and I need some positivity

And another positive.....RM has two weeks with the team and a chance to bed in the new players before our next game......and its a huge game and a chance to put things right

[trousers]

12 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

And another positive.....RM has two weeks with the team and a chance to bed in the new players before our next game......and its a huge game and a chance to put things right

All bar 6 players will be on international duty though...

[Mixedkebab]

Pathetic cunts, never lose a game by more than 3 in a league match

Disgusting display that has now tarnished Martin, he better be a fucking world beater after this. Cunts managed by a cunt to let it go past 4

no excuses, better shape up. This score line is unforgivable 

[Baz Fl]

3 hours ago, trousers said:

All bar 6 players will be on international duty though...

That’s a sad stat for a team that just got munched by Sunderland, they must have a bunch of Internationals 🤞

[Long Shot]

Too many Saints fans back the managers because “I like him he’s a nice guy”. I am sure RM is a great chap to have a pint with but his record is unspectacular to say the least and his tip tappy tactics are inappropriate and unlikely to work considering the players we have and the League we are in. 

[obelisk]

Was this sort of drubbing not foreseeable from the first half lack of performance (and much of the second) at Plymouth? If the home team had on that occasion been composed enough to finish some pretty easy early chances then Saints could have been embarrassed there too. That's not the only example either and future opponents will have noticed.

Edited 3 September, 2023 by obelisk
spelling

[InvictaSaint]

On a purely objective level, SR, Wilcox et al have stated multiple times that the aim this year is promotion and I don’t think they meant via the play offs. Today was a shit show, no question. RM needs to reflect, adjust and improve our defensive performance in particular. But if this keeps happening and we find ourselves mid table or worse by Christmas, then I genuinely think SR will pull the trigger. You can have all the alignment and pure footballing philosophy you like, but if we don’t win games, we ain’t getting promoted and I genuinely can’t see SR allowing that to happen.

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

Sometimes a heavy defeat can focus minds, this was a 5-0 drubbing, could easily have been more. LIke our set-up yesterday, there's no defence for that display. It's also clear our current tactics ain't fooling anyone in this division, we've rode our luck up until yesterday, it needs a rethink. You would like to think the international break would give time to get things nailed down (didn't do us much good last Autumn) but with so many away on duty it's certainly not ideal.

But it's still early with the manager and a number of players, we're blessed with some quality signings for the Championship, up to the manager now to find the right fit.

[stknowle]

56 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Was this sort of drubbing not foreseeable from the first half lack of performance (and much of the second) at Plymouth? If the home team had on that occasion been composed enough to finish some pretty easy early chances then Saints could have been embarrassed there too. That's not the only example either and future opponents will have noticed.

QPR missed a load of very presentable chances as well. Can't lie I'm really worried about this manager and his ability to address the glaring defensive issues we have.

[east-stand-nic]

Something is wrong with SFC. It makes no sense that we can turn out such poor performances. I suspect it is player revolt against the managers wishes. Seems players don't want to play a certain way and are upset and or confused about tactics. This has happened too much. Toward the end of RH reign, then again with NJ and RS. Now it is happening again. Do we have players with bad attitudes or are they just confused?

Either way, not a cats chance in hell we will go up this season, which i said before we kicked a ball. Not a knee jerk reaction to one game. Simple fact is we have another clever d*ck manager who thinks he knows best, but yet again he is on course for having the side with the worst defensive record int the league. It will not work at this level with these players. With this squad we should be top 6 all day long. But we need a normal football manager who has a plan A, B and C and who knows how to play more direct and fix defences.

Only 5 games in I know, but I am adamant that unless we change managers we will languish mid table. Sooner or later this will be proven correct when they change horse come December perhaps. If not, we will just remain at this level for many years to come.

[Exeter Saint]

Can’t blame Jack Stephens this time. This is yet another crunch moment to see how good the game analysers and new staff at the club are. Like Jones last season after the World Cup break, we will be watching with interest to see what changes they make to put in a decent performance against Leicester. Surely they can see that the goalkeeper needs help. I don’t know what kind of help, by the way. I’m not an expert, like they are. Hard to keep the faith at this point. Maybe Sunderland will win the league by a country mile and put this defeat into perspective.

[Farmer Saint]

Clearly yesterday's game was not how Martin wanted us to play, so why is everyone saying there were tactical issues. Can people actually work out how RM did want us to play?

In addition to this, why is everyone so bothered about being promoted? The Premier League is a big bunch of shit. I lost complete interest in us in the Prem - we can't and never will be able to compete - FFP has screwed it for all non big 6 clubs. 

Why don't we just enjoy winning some and losing some? It won't for long as the world is so utterly fucked that soon enough football really won't matter anyway. 

[saintant]

10 hours ago, Kenilworthy said:

Why has the club had such a blindspot over keepers for years? We don't need a worldclass keeper, just a competent one and there are a good number that have been available recently and affordable for us. This obsession with a ball playing keeper is madness, playing it out from the back just doesn't work. Let's get a keeper that does what keepers are meant to - stop shots. Which rules out McCarthy.

I'm not even convinced Baz is as good with his feet as he's cracked up to be. I see other keepers pinging 50-60 yard passes right on the money. All he does is a few simple short passes that any half decent keeper should be capable of - there's nothing outstanding about his passing and he is sometimes guilty of dithering on the ball for far too long.

[saintant]

8 hours ago, West end Saints said:

The one in 7th or in 9th?

Bad day, but we will be above them. 

 

 

The one in 9th won 5-0 and it should have been more. The one in 9th may soon overtake the one in 7th unless we learn from our mistakes very quickly.

[macca155]

9 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

If all it takes is a wiley old dog to unpick intricate, fancy football philosophies, then perhaps we've backed the wrong...um..dog (not horse as that would be mixing metaphors) 🙂

I think it's that we've seen the same mistakes already that's part of the worry. But yes, today was particularly bad, and we've got to deal with it and move on. All that team may not appear again, but there weren't that many new faces in it. Holgate, Downes and Mara making their first league starts I think. That they couldn't lay a glove on Sunderland is worrying (not to be confused with Baz not laying a glove on things, which although worrying, is normal) 🙂

Mowbray is a good manager, it would have been interesting to see what he could do with our lot.

[saintant]

1 hour ago, InvictaSaint said:

On a purely objective level, SR, Wilcox et al have stated multiple times that the aim this year is promotion and I don’t think they meant via the play offs. Today was a shit show, no question. RM needs to reflect, adjust and improve our defensive performance in particular. But if this keeps happening and we find ourselves mid table or worse by Christmas, then I genuinely think SR will pull the trigger. You can have all the alignment and pure footballing philosophy you like, but if we don’t win games, we ain’t getting promoted and I genuinely can’t see SR allowing that to happen.

Their problem is that they are still paying Ralph and Jones. Will they really countenance paying 4 managers at once? I have my doubts.

[Crab Lungs]

Thought I’d give it 24 hours.

Nope, still stings. This was as violently comprehensive dismantling of our promotion aspiring squad as you’ll like see - from a relatively good but ultimately functional opponent. Not a Leicester, not a Leeds… Sunderland.

Gavin Bazunu and Ryan Manning are a liability. Biggest concern for me is Bazunu, he will cost us 10-20 points this year, i said it at the start of the season. Shame on all the performing seals who clapped their ‘gaffer’ at the forum.

I don’t want to hear ‘oh he’ll get better’. We do not have the time to nurse him to whatever his ceiling potential is. This is our best opportunity of having a stab at promotion, let’s not ruin it by playing a goalkeeper who makes the odd worldly save but can’t perform the basics.

Manning is such a Martin disciple that he just forgoes any left back responsibilities at all. He’s right out of the Olivier Bernard of positional sense.

Our midfield composition was completely wrong. This was a game where we needed a strong, combative midfielder to wrestle control; maybe Charles who could have nullified Ekwah. Instead we had a lot of transient tippy tappers leaving gaping holes for Sunderland to exploit and get at our porous defence.

That Holgate debut was something to behold, too. Fuck a duck.

Mara - pointless.

This should be a huge reality check for the HMS Piss The League neeks. 
 

Moreover, this needs to be a reality check for Russell Martin and his own tactical naiveties.
 

Russ, stop pushing your hair behind your ears and start plotting beyond a Plan A. Do something about the deficiencies we can all so plainly can see, every game.

And whilst I’m at it, we all admire the honesty and authenticity that you display but it will get tiring very soon if we keep having to hear you say ‘it’s on me’ for the on the pitch failures. I recognise this is in my own industry. Huge respect for those who demonstrate a willingness to accept their mistakes but it does get a little tiresome when those people keep saying sorry and not learning from them.

Edited 3 September, 2023 by Crab Lungs

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 minute ago, macca155 said:

Mowbray is a good manager, it would have been interesting to see what he could do with our lot.

Hmmm. No facial hair, no pullover yesterday, no positional confusion, no obsession with any of high press, possession stats, front footedness, aggression or passes in a move.

Now his power point/ playbook generation skills might be great. But it doesn't seem like he's a fit for us. 🙂

[InvictaSaint]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

Their problem is that they are still paying Ralph and Jones. Will they really countenance paying 4 managers at once? I have my doubts.

I don’t think they will have much choice. Dragan has put a significant amount of cash into the club and he like the whole of SR know that the way to get a return on that investment is to be in the ‘promised land’ (yeah, I know) of the PL. I could be wrong of course; the stated intent to get promoted at the first time of asking could translate in reality to being prepared to wait two seasons. But parachute payments drop further next year and all the while we are in the championship we are missing out on valuable income. If we are in or in touch with the top 6 at Christmas I can see SR being content - If not happy - with that. But mid table? Not so sure. Yesterday’s result should be a very serious wake up call. RM ignores it at his peril. 

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

27 minutes ago, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

Sometimes a heavy defeat can focus minds, this was a 5-0 drubbing, could easily have been more. LIke our set-up yesterday, there's no defence for that display. It's also clear our current tactics ain't fooling anyone in this division, we've rode our luck up until yesterday, it needs a rethink. You would like to think the international break would give time to get things nailed down (didn't do us much good last Autumn) but with so many away on duty it's certainly not ideal.

But it's still early with the manager and a number of players, we're blessed with some quality signings for the Championship, up to the manager now to find the right fit.

I'm also pleased this was a drubbing rather than a 2-1 defeat (though maybe not if I'd trekked all the way up there). Can't make excuses, need to address these frailties. Point is, SR have brought in Martin because that's the style of play they want the club to play. We are stuck with the tippy-tappy build from the back tactics, but that squad of midfield and defence should be more than good enough to keep out the opposition when we don't have the ball.

And they need to sort it out quick. Next game Leicester at home on a Friday night.  🤫

[Turkish]

9 hours ago, saintant said:

I know which one of those two systems for the two sides currently works better in the Championship. The jury is out on whether RM can mould us into a Man City lite version that will stand up to the rigours of the season ahead. I'm not holding my breath on the evidence so far even though we have 10 points on the board because RM himself has admitted we've generally not played particularly well.

I think he’s done a good job so far and I’m still a fan but unless the defence gets tightened up we won’t even make the play offs. 12 goals conceded in 5 games is ridiculous when you think 9 of them came in games against teams you’d expect to be in and around the play off places that tells you where we are. 

Edited 3 September, 2023 by Turkish

[saintant]

4 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I think he’s done a good job so far and I’m still a fan but unless the defence gets tightened up we won’t even make the play offs. 12 goals conceded in 5 games is ridiculous when you think 9 of them came in games against teams you’d expect to be in and around the play off places that tells you where we are. 

Like most of us I like the guy and really want him and his methods to succeed not least because it'll mean we have a team that plays good football. The issue I have is that I'm not 100% sold on the effectiveness of possession based football at the expense of all else because few teams make it work. RM is very young for a manager so it's no surprise that he has no real track record to prove he knows what he's doing. I think we are looking one dimensional and teams know what they are going to face. Sunderland proved yesterday that, the way we operate at the moment, it's very easy to score against us. I get that we are very much a work-in-progress but I'm just not convinced. Would love nothing more than for RM to prove me wrong. We'll see, particularly over the next batch of games against some strong looking sides.

[Wurzel]

That strange comment from (was it RH?,) about Elyonousi being good without the ball is starting to make sense now he's no longer here. Could do with 11 of him at the moment

[InvictaSaint]

I can’t find a way to paste the link from the app but there’s an Interesting club video interview post-match - RM a bit more candid and forthright than with broadcast media. Worth a watch. Covers most of the same things we’ve been discussing. 

[david in sweden]

I think most of you (above) have covered the various excuses / explanations / comments and criticisms. 

 

It is early season and there is still time to have the players introduced to each other and have them play in permanent positions instead 

of chopping and changing everyone .  I know RM has his system, but Manning is not a good example of how it should work.

We are beginning to see where we will miss JWP who roamed around picking us loose balls and finding his own players with great accuracy, but

some of our midfield passing was abominable and any positivity from our younger recruits disappeared after the first 7 minutes ....

Despite the 68% possession, we had no answer to their breakaways and Mowbray will be pleased he even had a 16 y.o debutant who scored their last goal.

 

With hindsight we might conclude that are previous 3 narrow victories had a lot of luck attached and those opposition sides didn't show Sunderland's aggression.

With VAR we might have got a couple of penalty shouts but we have to learn that it gonna be like that in this league, and not every ref. will give yellows for diving.

The next two fixtures will likely determine how our season will go.  Both Leicester  and Ipswich have shown good starts, but the prospect of another trip  upto  the North East at the end of the month, is not an attractive idea.  

Two good / acceptable results now will keep us in the top 6,  but another Sunderland result will have us struggling and longing for the next window.

 

Edited 3 September, 2023 by david in sweden

[Sheaf Saint]

7 minutes ago, Wurzel said:

That strange comment from (was it RH?,) about Elyonousi being good without the ball is starting to make sense now he's no longer here. Could do with 11 of him at the moment

Yeah I was thinking similar. Plenty of people on here have been critical of the 'against the ball' philosophy in recent times, but yesterday highlighted just how important that aspect of the game is. 

Absolutely no point harping on about possession if we're just going to let oppo teams carve through us at will when we don't have the ball.

[The Kraken]

11 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Yeah I was thinking similar. Plenty of people on here have been critical of the 'against the ball' philosophy in recent times, but yesterday highlighted just how important that aspect of the game is. 

Absolutely no point harping on about possession if we're just going to let oppo teams carve through us at will when we don't have the ball.

Yep. Criticising possession-based football becomes irrelevant if, when out of possession, the team just shit themselves and make terrible decisions. Have a look at the image below, it’s from the first goal and we’re attacking with a corner. One desperate punt out from the back from them and their attacker is goal side of our last defender. How on earth is that allowed to happen? And it was far from the only time our whole shape left us exposed and vulnerable when we lost the ball. We can point out individual errors from the defenders and the keepers, but this comes down to shocking organisation in the first place. Russell Martin was a defender Ffs, so I’m a bit worried that he allows his teams to set up like this.

[Crab Lungs]

2 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Yep. Criticising possession-based football becomes irrelevant if, when out of possession, the team just shit themselves and make terrible decisions. Have a look at the image below, it’s from the first goal and we’re attacking with a corner. One desperate punt out from the back from them and their attacker is goal side of our last defender. How on earth is that allowed to happen? And it was far from the only time our whole shape left us exposed and vulnerable when we lost the ball. We can point out individual errors from the defenders and the keepers, but this comes down to shocking organisation in the first place. Russell Martin was a defender Ffs, so I’m a bit worried that he allows his teams to set up like this.

Yep, and it’s not the first time we’ve seen this chaos. We saw it in previous games too. I get the impression he just puts it down to a sacrifice we make playing this style of football.

I absolutely 100% don’t.

[skintsaint]

6 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Yep. Criticising possession-based football becomes irrelevant if, when out of possession, the team just shit themselves and make terrible decisions. Have a look at the image below, it’s from the first goal and we’re attacking with a corner. One desperate punt out from the back from them and their attacker is goal side of our last defender. How on earth is that allowed to happen? And it was far from the only time our whole shape left us exposed and vulnerable when we lost the ball. We can point out individual errors from the defenders and the keepers, but this comes down to shocking organisation in the first place. Russell Martin was a defender Ffs, so I’m a bit worried that he allows his teams to set up like this.

Even playing amateur and Sunday league you leave one extra defender back per striker. Basic stuff.

[WALK DMC]

23 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

 

Two good / acceptable results now will keep us in the top 6,  but another Sunderland result will have us struggling and longing for the next window.

 

I'm pretty happy with the squad of players that we have; sure there are weaknesses, but I think that most managers would be happy with the level of quality for a promotion push in the championship. If we're not in the top 6 most of the season I think the finger of blame will be pointed firmly in the direction of RM. I hope that isn't the case, but I don't believe further investments will suddenly transform his tactics. 

While Holgate was rubbish, I still feel that the fundamental issue is the midfield which is too attacking and leaves us exposed time and time again.  Put Downes and Charles as defensive midfielders (4-2-3-1) and I think that we'd bring far more stability to our play. 

[obelisk]

1 minute ago, skintsaint said:

Even playing amateur and Sunday league you leave one extra defender back per striker. Basic stuff.

Saints never seem to leave an attacker upfield when defending a corner. Maybe they should give it a try.

[Jack]

Some would say it’s been coming. We’ve been largely unconvincing and needed injury time for the bulk of our points, and we were lucky to get a draw out of Norwich which was our toughest test. 
 

Lots of changes yes but you have to get the basics right and we haven’t, kamikaze defending 

[The Kraken]

2 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Saints never seem to leave an attacker upfield when defending a corner. Maybe they should give it a try.

I’ve noticed this too, it drives me mad when I see us in possession, lose the ball and then we’re massively vulnerable to a very simple long ball over the top.  Yet in reverse we offer zero threat from this type of play as we have 11 players back in the box defending. It was a Ralphism that just seems to be adopted by every manager since (apart from those we play against).