Fans Ownership of the Club.

[um pahars]

But once again you seem to be missing the point entirely, or disenegenuously engaging in a different argument now that your initial argument that fans would be "active" & constantly involved in day to day issues as well as leading the club, has been shown to be a stereotypical myth.

 

When you say "defending the concept is pretty futile", you indeed come across as ignorant, as the concept is working well at a number of Clubs.

 

It is a bona fide and viable working alternative for a number of Clubs home and abroad (in fact, there are more supporter owned clubs in this country than there are listed clubs like ours).

 

Now of course if you're saying that trying to get the concept working in it's truest sense at Saints is futile, then I would (and have above) agree with you.

 

But your first premise was that the whole concept was a ridiculous concept that would involve supporters constantly being active in footballing decisions, fans leading and running the club, which is not how these organisations work.

 

If your thrust is that it is a futile concept (and realistic saviour) for Saints, then as I say I agree with you, but it remains a totally realistic concept for many clubs, who do not operate anywhere near the manner in which you have tried to portray in this thread.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

But once again you seem to be missing the point entirely, or disenegenuously engaging in a different argument now that your initial argument that fans would be "active" & constantly involved in day to day issues as well as leading the club, has been shown to be a stereotypical myth.

 

When you say "defending the concept is pretty futile", you indeed come across as ignorant, as the concept is working well at a number of Clubs.

 

It is a bona fide and viable working alternative for a number of Clubs home and abroad (in fact, there are more supporter owned clubs in this country than there are listed clubs like ours).

 

Now of course if you're saying that trying to get the concept working in it's truest sense at Saints is futile, then I would (and have above) agree with you.

 

But your first premise was that the whole concept was a ridiculous concept that would involve supporters constantly being active in footballing decisions, fans leading and running the club, which is not how these organisations work.

 

If your thrust is that it is a futile concept (and realistic saviour) for Saints, then as I say I agree with you, but it remains a totally realistic concept for many clubs, who do not operate anywhere near the manner in which you have tried to portray in this thread.

 

 

An interesting debate, gentlemen and one I am reluctant to join so late but while I understand points made on both sides we all have to admit that the current set up (which Jonah is urging us to rally behind) has been an mitigated disaster which shows no sign of ever improving.

 

Whille I am against fans being on Boards or running the club on a day to day basis I do think the crux of the matter is the word ownership. If the club is owned by fans who then chose the professionals to run it it would sure as hell cut out a lot of the arguments and mud slinging you get on here. It would be far from perfect, fraught with difficulty and Buccotim's point about the fiver on this forum has not gone unnoticed but ,when all said and done, what we have at present is a big enough argument to embrace alternative methods.

[Saint Fan CaM]

An interesting debate, gentlemen and one I am reluctant to join so late but while I understand points made on both sides we all have to admit that the current set up (which Jonah is urging us to rally behind) has been an mitigated disaster which shows no sign of ever improving.

 

Whille I am against fans being on Boards or running the club on a day to day basis I do think the crux of the matter is the word ownership. If the club is owned by fans who then chose the professionals to run it it would sure as hell cut out a lot of the arguments and mud slinging you get on here. It would be far from perfect, fraught with difficulty and Buccotim's point about the fiver on this forum has not gone unnoticed but ,when all said and done, what we have at present is a big enough argument to embrace alternative methods.

 

Err, sorry for the pedant alert Duncan, but I think you meant UNmitigated! I agree though, that history should show us that forms of multiple ownership such as a PLC really do not work.

[Mole]

An interesting debate, gentlemen and one I am reluctant to join so late but while I understand points made on both sides we all have to admit that the current set up (which Jonah is urging us to rally behind) has been an mitigated disaster which shows no sign of ever improving.

 

Whille I am against fans being on Boards or running the club on a day to day basis I do think the crux of the matter is the word ownership. If the club is owned by fans who then chose the professionals to run it it would sure as hell cut out a lot of the arguments and mud slinging you get on here. It would be far from perfect, fraught with difficulty and Buccotim's point about the fiver on this forum has not gone unnoticed but ,when all said and done, what we have at present is a big enough argument to embrace alternative methods.

 

The thought of a fan owned club horrifies me. Assuming executives/directors were chosen and payed to run the club you'd still have the little gang of super fans directly below them in the hierarchy trying to get their own way.

[jonah]

we all have to admit that the current set up (which Jonah is urging us to rally behind) has been an mitigated disaster which shows no sign of ever improving.

 

By suggesting I am behind the current "set up", you are presumably changing the tack from a discussion about fan ownership and board structure to a direct dig at the current board? Calling it an mitigated (sic) disaster may be your blinkered view of the SFC world from behind that mighty chip, but to anyone else we have just *had* 2 years of unmitigated disaster and that has out of necessity been followed by 6 months of tough decisions. I would like a straight answer to a straight question - given we survived last season by 20 minutes with a team of more experienced and expensive players, what position did you think we would find ourselves in come January? Top 6? And given the parlous state of our finances and the incredible collapse of banking what exactly did you think would happen with regards to finance at the club? Did you think we could just close our eyes and hope the big bad Barclays monster would go away (like the previous board did)? Once you've answered that Duncan, I would *love it* (and I mean *love it* in a Kevin Keegan way) if you could ask MC and LM what their answers are - I've already seen Crouch's and haven't yet stopped laughing :-)

 

Back to the subject of fan ownership, and without recourse to calling someone "ignorant" for holding a different opinion, I broadly agree with CB Fry - you cannot make any comparison between SFC and Spanish clubs. It's massively cultural and political over there, for a start clubs like Barcelona and Real are indefinitely financed by the banks. It's a pointless comparison.

 

Which then brings us back to clubs where fans have tried to take control via Supporters Trusts - Rushden & Diamond are amongst the best examples, their Trust was bequethed an excellent setup by their former benefactor Max Briggs, plus £750,000 and 22 acres of land, yet the Trust couldn't even run the club at breakeven and they were relegated (2006). Well done those fans.

 

And closer to home the Ted Bates statue is an excellent example because it was run with a formal board of 5 (?) fans, 4 of whom were also on the Saints Trust board (surprise surprise). When the shambolic statue was finally revealed, did they do what the Saints Trust had demanded Lowe did and resign for their incompetence and failure to deliver? No, they wanted a chance to put it right. And this was all just over a poxy £30k statue, not a multi-million pound listed football club. Can you just imagine the damage they would have caused to a proper company?

 

And if you don't have the fans involved as UP now seems to be trying to suggest (whatever happened to the Fan On The Board idea then?), well you're just talking about fans owning shares aren't you? Which is what we already have. The only difference being that when the majority elect Lowe/Wilde to run the board it's not accepted as a majority decision.. ie. the fans won't respect the majority opinion.

 

So even if we changed the club's AoA to restrict any given shareholder to 5% say (thus reducing one person's influence), it still wouldn't make much difference because at the end of the day even if you say the fans aren't involved at board level, they won't accept the majority decision by other fans who hold shares. Where will we ever get without that democracy?

[Saint Richard of Woolston]

I think we have seen that a Fans' Trust cannot even run a Fans' Trust - let alone a Football Club.

 

There can be no 'Fans' Representative' as there is no such thing as a representative fan - we all have different angles on things and that is part of the beauty of being a fan.

 

As such this is all an academic discussion, imho. I think Jonah has a point when he says we all need to get behind the (and I paraphrase so please spare me if I don't quite get the wording right) the current structure (and I think the emphasis is on 'structure' rather than the personalities within it) simply because it isn't going to change without new individuals/bodies coming to the table with enough to remove at least two of the three current players (Lowe, Wilde & Crouch).

 

We are where we are, guys, and the sooner we accept that we might be able to agree a way forward.

[Mole]

We are where we are, guys, and the sooner we accept that we might be able to agree a way forward.

 

1) Remove Lowe and Wilde.

 

2) Replace with Crouch and Lawrie.

 

At least with Crouch you have a man who will put his hand in his pocket and with Lawrie a man who'll get us a good manager.

[alpine_saint]

Isnt the re-appearance of Jonah and Saint Richard of Woolston on this site in recent days, simply fascinating...?

[ottery st mary]

Isnt the re-appearance of Jonah and Saint Richard of Woolston on this site in recent days, simply fascinating...?

 

Thought they would be out there on the slopes with Rupert and protecting him from the Alps or even other members of this forum trying to catch up with him.

[charliemiller]

PLC Football Clubs dont work .

 

Fans Owned Football Clubs (Co Operative TYpe Real Madrid) ONLY work if the club is intially setup in that format .(bit late for us)

 

The only way forward is a privately owned club with a rich benefactor.

 

 

All IMHO

[jonah]

At least with Crouch you have a man who will put his hand in his pocket

 

Put his hand in his pocket? Only to check how big his d!ck is.

 

Let's just remind ourselves how much Crouch paid into the club from his own pocket when *he* was chairman last season. Errr, that will be the square root of f*** all then, so he's in no position to demand the current chairmen put their cash in is he? In fact, he preferred to send Rasiak and Skacel out on loan to cut costs rather than put his own cash in. So given he had very little faith in sticking cash in when he was in charge (a rare moment of clarity of thought to be fair, given we plunged down the league with his "English manager"), it's just more pointless posturing from Crouch. He still won't put a penny in despite all his claims.

 

and with Lawrie a man who'll get us a good manager.

 

Ahh yes, I wonder who Chris McMenemy is representing this season? Quite how you think we could afford to bring in Lawrie I don't understand - simply from a financial perspective this is someone who charged the club £75k pa to be an "ambassador" and did nothing but bad-mouth the club either-side of his paid employment. How much will he charge for a "real" position?

 

For anyone who hasn't noticed, the transfer window will end this weekend. From now until the end of season what difference will it make to the team's survival to change the boardroom again? The answer is "nothing", which is why Corbett and Crouch are acting more in their own interests than those of the club or fans in trying to cause further disruptions now. If they want to try to force change (again), why not wait until May? Even Wilde managed to realise it was in everyone's interests to make changes out of season.

[ottery st mary]

Put his hand in his pocket? Only to check how big his d!ck is.

 

Let's just remind ourselves how much Crouch paid into the club from his own pocket when *he* was chairman last season. Errr, that will be the square root of f*** all then, so he's in no position to demand the current chairmen put their cash in is he? In fact, he preferred to send Rasiak and Skacel out on loan to cut costs rather than put his own cash in. So given he had very little faith in sticking cash in when he was in charge (a rare moment of clarity of thought to be fair, given we plunged down the league with his "English manager"), it's just more pointless posturing from Crouch. He still won't put a penny in despite all his claims.

 

 

 

Ahh yes, I wonder who Chris McMenemy is representing this season? Quite how you think we could afford to bring in Lawrie I don't understand - simply from a financial perspective this is someone who charged the club £75k pa to be an "ambassador" and did nothing but bad-mouth the club either-side of his paid employment. How much will he charge for a "real" position?

 

For anyone who hasn't noticed, the transfer window will end this weekend. From now until the end of season what difference will it make to the team's survival to change the boardroom again? The answer is "nothing", which is why Corbett and Crouch are acting more in their own interests than those of the club or fans in trying to cause further disruptions now. If they want to try to force change (again), why not wait until May? Even Wilde managed to realise it was in everyone's interests to make changes out of season.

 

jonah, our computer mechanic with the financial times under your arms..

I know everything there is to know because good old Lowey briefs me.

 

When you have wiped the Gloustershire mud from your jacket, the Alps snow from your trousers and removed the Scottish Heather from your arse..Please confirm that like your beloved you have not the faintest clue about football or financial matters.....Do not pretend to be what you are not.....You have not got a clue and like your mate no interest in Southampton Football club as a true supporter.....Your love is somewhere else if truth be known....

Of course you and a few other Skiing friends would not agree with my opinion..

 

But at least I care for the Saints and want what is best for us and not some personal vendetta against anyone who dares to question good old Rupert.

 

You are a rude and at times a nasty poster who appears to tell many porkies to suit Rupert the Bear...

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I think we have seen that a Fans' Trust cannot even run a Fans' Trust - let alone a Football Club.

 

There can be no 'Fans' Representative' as there is no such thing as a representative fan - we all have different angles on things and that is part of the beauty of being a fan.

 

As such this is all an academic discussion, imho. I think Jonah has a point when he says we all need to get behind the (and I paraphrase so please spare me if I don't quite get the wording right) the current structure (and I think the emphasis is on 'structure' rather than the personalities within it) simply because it isn't going to change without new individuals/bodies coming to the table with enough to remove at least two of the three current players (Lowe, Wilde & Crouch).

 

We are where we are, guys, and the sooner we accept that we might be able to agree a way forward.

 

 

Certainly with you on the Saints Trust Richard.

 

However the unhappiness at this club has only manifested itself since it became a PLC and I would advocate or wish a return to the days when it was run as a football club. How we do that I don't know, unless the fans come up with something which is where I am basically coming from.

 

In yester year the club was actually run by fans albeit of the "country gentry type" and looking back it does make you wonder how a bunch of amateurs (because that was all they were) managed to do such a good job. George Reader who was Chairman when we won the Cup was an ex-referee and a school teacher while of course John Corbett and Co could hardly be classified as hard nosed business men. They were fans and they succeded to an extent.

 

Now I will climb out behind my big chip and politely answer Mark aka Jonah as to where I expected us to be this season. When Pearson kept us up, I confidently expected him to do the same this year and with all the positive noises emanating out of SMS re how he had galvanised the place it was an realistic expectation. As soon as I heard Lowe was coming back my expectations plummeted and we are exactly where I though we would be. A disunited, disgruntled, very unhappy club in a relegation position.

 

I appreciate this current financial crisis is much more the fault of the post-Lowe era thanks to the wanton behaviour of the execs and naivity on the part of the non-execs, but Lowe had had his day and made his own mistakes and in coming back, he only made a fragile situation even worse. Crouch claims to have had things under control before he was removed, stating the banks etc were more than happy with him at the helm. Of course he would say that wouldn't he but to my way of thinking he is the best of 3 evils, if only because he is (just about) the least hated (or put it another way the emotions surrounding him run at a lower temperature).

 

I would be happy to see all of them disentangle themselves from the club forever because it seems the fans will never truly unite behind anyone who has been involved in running the club over the last decade. But who will come in? You can forget Salz and Co because they have turned their back on the club it seems just when we needed them most. Who wants a mercenary foreign investor? No thanks. Who then? The only answer really is the fans themselves which is where I came in. Far from ideal and fraught with potential problems but the only viable solution in my eyes.

 

This club is on the eve of destruction to quote a 60s classic. That is not being over dramatic - it really is - can we really afford to argue about the pros and cons of fan ownership at such a time. Radical times call for radical solutions.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Err, sorry for the pedant alert Duncan, but I think you meant UNmitigated! I agree though, that history should show us that forms of multiple ownership such as a PLC really do not work.

 

You are quite correct to point that out. My mistake - now you know why I have to pay David Bull a small fortune to edit my books!!

[saint1977]

Certainly with you on the Saints Trust Richard.

 

However the unhappiness at this club has only manifested itself since it became a PLC and I would advocate or wish a return to the days when it was run as a football club. How we do that I don't know, unless the fans come up with something which is where I am basically coming from.

 

In yester year the club was actually run by fans albeit of the "country gentry type" and looking back it does make you wonder how a bunch of amateurs (because that was all they were) managed to do such a good job. George Reader who was Chairman when we won the Cup was an ex-referee and a school teacher while of course John Corbett and Co could hardly be classified as hard nosed business men. They were fans and they succeded to an extent.

 

Now I will climb out behind my big chip and politely answer Mark aka Jonah as to where I expected us to be this season. When Pearson kept us up, I confidently expected him to do the same this year and with all the positive noises emanating out of SMS re how he had galvanised the place it was an realistic expectation. As soon as I heard Lowe was coming back my expectations plummeted and we are exactly where I though we would be. A disunited, disgruntled, very unhappy club in a relegation position.

 

I appreciate this current financial crisis is much more the fault of the post-Lowe era thanks to the wanton behaviour of the execs and naivity on the part of the non-execs, but Lowe had had his day and made his own mistakes and in coming back, he only made a fragile situation even worse. Crouch claims to have had things under control before he was removed, stating the banks etc were more than happy with him at the helm. Of course he would say that wouldn't he but to my way of thinking he is the best of 3 evils, if only because he is (just about) the least hated (or put it another way the emotions surrounding him run at a lower temperature).

 

I would be happy to see all of them disentangle themselves from the club forever because it seems the fans will never truly unite behind anyone who has been involved in running the club over the last decade. But who will come in? You can forget Salz and Co because they have turned their back on the club it seems just when we needed them most. Who wants a mercenary foreign investor? No thanks. Who then? The only answer really is the fans themselves which is where I came in. Far from ideal and fraught with potential problems but the only viable solution in my eyes.

 

This club is on the eve of destruction to quote a 60s classic. That is not being over dramatic - it really is - can we really afford to argue about the pros and cons of fan ownership at such a time. Radical times call for radical solutions.

 

Great post. I'm not as big a fan of Crouch as yourself Duncan but do recognise that he doesn't have the same boiling point emotions from our fanbase as certain indivduals at the club and remember, Mike Wilde stirred quite a bit of that up. To then get into bed with that person 2 years on let the fans down and the considerable support he had recieved.

[Saint Fan CaM]

You are quite correct to point that out. My mistake - now you know why I have to pay David Bull a small fortune to edit my books!!

 

And there I go doing it for free!

[Saint Fan CaM]

1) Remove Lowe and Wilde.

 

2) Replace with Crouch and Lawrie.

 

At least with Crouch you have a man who will put his hand in his pocket and with Lawrie a man who'll get us a good manager.

 

 

Not to mention another 5-10k through the gates.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Great post. I'm not as big a fan of Crouch as yourself Duncan but do recognise that he doesn't have the same boiling point emotions from our fanbase as certain indivduals at the club and remember, Mike Wilde stirred quite a bit of that up. To then get into bed with that person 2 years on let the fans down and the considerable support he had recieved.

 

Tbh - I wouldn't say I was a great fan of Crouch - some of his PR when he took over was toe-curling and I can understand how he gets up some peoples noses but when you read things like this I realise more people would unite behind him than the other two.

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/4083906.Local_business_community_would_back_Leon__reckons_Dossie/

[saint1977]

Tbh - I wouldn't say I was a great fan of Crouch - some of his PR when he took over was toe-curling and I can understand how he gets up some peoples noses but when you read things like this I realise more people would unite behind him than the other two.

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/4083906.Local_business_community_would_back_Leon__reckons_Dossie/

 

Oh I do agree with you Duncan, I just think that Leon needs to be a bit more savvy at times. The Tommac thing worries me a bit as well. I want Lowe and particularly Wilde - the man who brought the Execs in that escalated the mess Lowe left behind first time around - out badly as is evident from my postings but I think we have to be realistic about our expectations with Leon. A more steady hand on the tiller alongside Leon - ie not the same people as last time - would reassure me a bit more. Perhaps this is Salz, who knows.

[sotonswan]

Just for the sake of an alternative perspective, this saturday you will be playing Swansea City, a club bought 80% by local businessmen and 20% by the Supporters Trust in 2002.

Here's the Trust page on the official website http://www.swanseacity.net/page/SupportersTrust/0,,10354~1063913,00.html with a link to the Trust website at the bottom.

I personally have a DD to the Trust so it can remain King-maker if more shares are issued, and to buy the club back from an administrator, if it all goes tits up AGAIN.

The trust has 2 directors on the board. No director - even the businessmen - draws a salary. Why DO they do it, I wonder . . . . . .

 

Of course it took being an hour away from being officially wound up before all fans set aside their differences to make it work. You just haven't got there yet :/

 

Keep the failth!

 

My very first time in the away end this weekend at SMS. It will be strange.

[um pahars]

Of course it took being an hour away from being officially wound up before all fans set aside their differences to make it work. You just haven't got there yet.

 

Quite, and it wouldn't surprise me that at some point in the near future that we will be handing out the begging buckets to collect money from grass roots supporters in order to lend it to the Club to keep the wolves from the doors in the short term.

 

Sadly, too many clubs have had to experience this and it's not something I would look forward to.

 

That said, I do think that given the current set up, the facilities. infrastructure and potential (and this no disrespect to other clubs). I think relying on supporters would only be a short term solution as I would imagine we would still be an attractive proposition to some investor, despite being ravaged by administration (if we get that far of course), who would come in and buy us on the cheap,

[CB Fry]

But once again you seem to be missing the point entirely, or disenegenuously engaging in a different argument now that your initial argument that fans would be "active" & constantly involved in day to day issues as well as leading the club, has been shown to be a stereotypical myth.

 

 

I'm not sure I ever said fans would be active in terms of running the club in a picking-the-team way, that seems to be something you decided I thought.

 

All along my argument has been that to set up a fan run club along the lines of the OP would require the anorak mafia of the usual suspects of fan mobilisation, and the subsequent ego-age would strangle the thing at birth anyway.

 

 

When you say "defending the concept is pretty futile", you indeed come across as ignorant, as the concept is working well at a number of Clubs.

 

Like who, in this country, in the top two divisions. Seriously, you've said you piece about it, I couldn't give a flying fu ck what's been happening in Germany for the last sixty years. It is not going to happen.

 

You might as well go on about Ice Cream being made free on the NHS. Blinding theory but never going to happen.

 

It is a bona fide and viable working alternative for a number of Clubs home and abroad (in fact, there are more supporter owned clubs in this country than there are listed clubs like ours).

 

Like who. Please do not reply with the list of two bit lower league and non league nonentities. I'm sick of people wetting their pants over AFC Wimbledon and FC United. Small fry cottage industry.

 

Now of course if you're saying that trying to get the concept working in it's truest sense at Saints is futile, then I would (and have above) agree with you.

 

I know you do. Stop arguing with me then. I did say that about four posts ago.

 

 

But your first premise was that the whole concept was a ridiculous concept that would involve supporters constantly being active in footballing decisions, fans leading and running the club, which is not how these organisations work.

 

If your thrust is that it is a futile concept (and realistic saviour) for Saints, then as I say I agree with you, but it remains a totally realistic concept for many clubs, who do not operate anywhere near the manner in which you have tried to portray in this thread.

 

 

No, my premise and I will repeat it again, is that to get this thing off the ground would require it being started, and the people starting it would be the anorak mafia of superfans who have so far proved to be unable to organise the sandwiches at a whist drive.

 

The key point is that lot would never get the sod off the ground in a million years. I'd give it a month before half of them walked out over a debate about the acronym for the group.

 

And, actually, with the egotists involved in such an operation, I stand by my assertion that their egos would need sating with glory and recognition on a weekly basis.

 

Lord spare us from being owned and run by ver fans.

[um pahars]

Back to the subject of fan ownership, and without recourse to calling someone "ignorant" for holding a different opinion,

 

It was nothing to do with holding a different opinion, it was related to being ignorant of how supporter involvement works at Clubs and trying to say they are "active" at all levels of the footballing side (along with stupid jibes realting to totally unrelated items such as fund raising for a statue etc), which is patently not the case in a number of successful supporter owned entities at home and abroad.

 

There are a number of valid arguments relating to the shortcomings of supporter owned clubs such as ability to raise additional finance and some corporate governance issues, but to suggest fans would be "active" and involved at all levels displays an ignorance of the subject.

 

I broadly agree with CB Fry - you cannot make any comparison between SFC and Spanish clubs. It's massively cultural and political over there, for a start clubs like Barcelona and Real are indefinitely financed by the banks. It's a pointless comparison.

 

And something I agreed with and agree with in our circumstances as we stand here today. It certainly works for some clubs abroad and it has workes for some clubs at home as well, but as I havce said throughout this thread, i don't think it is the solution to our current problems.

 

Which then brings us back to clubs where fans have tried to take control via Supporters Trusts - Rushden & Diamond are amongst the best examples, their Trust was bequethed an excellent setup by their former benefactor Max Briggs, plus £750,000 and 22 acres of land, yet the Trust couldn't even run the club at breakeven and they were relegated (2006). Well done those fans.

 

For someone who tries to come across as sensible, rational and intelligent, I have to say this is one of the most ridiculous comments you have ever come up with.

 

This is one example of where a Trust owned club has failed and whilst there are also others, football is also littered with PLC's and Ltd Co's that have also gone belly up. Additionally, there are a number of Trust owned/involved clubs home and abroad that are well managed.

 

To summise and conclude that because Rushden and Diamonds went tts up, then all other Trust iniatives are just as poorly managed is ludicrous.

 

Whatever ownership model is used, beit PLC, LTD, IPS will never be a substitute for good management (as we have found to our cost).

 

It would just as disengenuous (and pathetic) to suggest because PLC's such as Leicester and Ipswich went tts up, then all other PLC's are run just as badly and likely to go to the wall as well.

 

There are a number of valid counter arguments for every ownership model out there, but this has to be one of the weakest!!!!!

 

And closer to home the Ted Bates statue is an excellent example because it was run with a formal board of 5 (?) fans, 4 of whom were also on the Saints Trust board (surprise surprise). When the shambolic statue was finally revealed, did they do what the Saints Trust had demanded Lowe did and resign for their incompetence and failure to deliver? No, they wanted a chance to put it right. And this was all just over a poxy £30k statue, not a multi-million pound listed football club. Can you just imagine the damage they would have caused to a proper company?

 

And if a bunch of ameteur supporters did get to run a club (or any company for that matter) then I think it would probably pan out as bad as that first statue!! But once again you're being rather disengenuous and ignorant to suggest that is how a supporter owned model would or does work.

 

Using a group of fund raisers organising a whip round to get a statue built as a stick to beat the Supporters Ownership Model is an extremely weak argument.

 

 

 

To conclude, I certainly don't think a "truly" Supporters Owned Model is the answer to our current problems and I don't think it is something we will probably ever see.

 

However, it is a model that has worked well (and poorly) at other clubs who have adopted it for a myriad of reasons (historical, financial, cultural).

 

There are a number of shortcomings relating to the Supporters Ownership model which could be discussed on this thread, but instead people perpetuate myths and a poor line of argument which can only be put down to ignorance or a desire to be disengenuous.

[jonah]

In yester year the club was actually run by fans albeit of the "country gentry type" and looking back it does make you wonder how a bunch of amateurs (because that was all they were) managed to do such a good job. George Reader who was Chairman when we won the Cup was an ex-referee and a school teacher while of course John Corbett and Co could hardly be classified as hard nosed business men. They were fans and they succeded to an extent.

 

That's just the point though isn't it Duncan - football chairmanship in the 70s was about as tricky as tying your boot laces. You could indeed have ex-teachers working part-time to do the job, and you could afford to have country types who spent a lot of time on their Scottish estates. And no, fans didn't care (or usually know) what the chairman was up to because they supported the 11 blokes kicking the ball.

 

The fact is that those some laissez-faire part-timers are the ones who actually drove us to the point of financial obscurity - a decrepid old stadium and no revenue. Cue the cheap-shots about an empty SMS and no money now either, but the club was wallowing in the past, and a lot of fans are keeping that going.

 

When Pearson kept us up, I confidently expected him to do the same this year and with all the positive noises emanating out of SMS re how he had galvanised the place it was an realistic expectation. As soon as I heard Lowe was coming back my expectations plummeted and we are exactly where I though we would be. A disunited, disgruntled, very unhappy club in a relegation position.

 

It's very sad that your emotions over the club can be so dramatically swayed by the non-employment of a part-time chairman of a PLC. I think you should try to re-think your priorities and whether you are supporting a PLC or a football club here. As for thinking Pearson would "do the same", that would have been for us to scrape along at the bottom wouldn't it? We had a weaker squad and less money, are you suggesting that is irrelevant and he would have blown the division apart when he barely scraped us through back in May with better players? I think that is just wishful thinking.

 

I would be happy to see all of them disentangle themselves from the club forever because it seems the fans will never truly unite behind anyone who has been involved in running the club over the last decade.

 

Well finally we share some common ground, but this is what then concerns me:

 

But who will come in?

 

...to my way of thinking he [Crouch] is the best of 3 evils, if only because he is (just about) the least hated (or put it another way the emotions surrounding him run at a lower temperature).

 

That's just making exactly the same mistake that happened with Wilde - if Crouch is not good enough then he's NOT the answer is he. The answer is to get someone else running the club. By trying to back someone who is clearly not fit for purpose you are simply making matters worse. If you think Lowe needs to go that's fine, but for God's sake don't bring back another failure with a different set of flaws.

 

This club is on the eve of destruction to quote a 60s classic. That is not being over dramatic - it really is - can we really afford to argue about the pros and cons of fan ownership at such a time. Radical times call for radical solutions.

 

You sound like Arthur Bl**dy Scargill - radical solutions?! This is a game of football. Instead of rousing the rabble and driving a stake through the heart of the club (quite literally if it all kicks off and the stadium gets shut down), have you thought about what you are going to achieve now the transfer window is as good as shut and we only have 17 games to go?