New ref approach

[benjii]

Last night we had 15 minutes of additional time in a match that wasn't particularly incident-packed and only had one or two moderate injury stoppages. I completely agree with clamping down on time wasting, but I didn't really see any of that going on.

There were also 8 yellow cards in a game which, again, wasn't particularly rough or ill-tempered. I'm totally on board with the yellow card issued to Armstrong. It's been a real peeve of mine for a long time - if your team has conceded a set piece, you should touch the ball.

But, if we're looking at 8 yellow cards and 15 minutes of additional time in a one-sided and fairly uneventful game then we're going to see plenty of matches where the referee has a huge influence on the outcome. It will be interesting to see if they keep this up or if it will be like that time referees started giving penalties for pulling in the box at corners for about a month, then stopped.

[Saint_clark]

Every season they have some new initiative that they clamp down on in the first month or two and then it dies a death. I can remember at various times...

Not stop starting during penalty run ups (happens all the time now) 

Nobody but the captain speaking to the ref

Clamping down on shirt pulling in the box

 

And I'm sure there's more if I hadn't just woken up. 

I actually dont mind this new approach. How many times have we said that they should clamp down on dissent and time wasting properly, that we'd end up with a huge amount of red cards for a few weeks but players would soon learn? 

With regards to the time though, I'd much rather they stop the clock when the ball is out of play than add on 25 minutes of additional time across both halves. With this approach you'll end up with evening games ending past 10 o clock, it'll be a nightmare for away fans who get the train. 

[CanadaSaint]

As Clarky said, every season they clamp down on something or other, but then it gradually peters out. I suspect that will happen when it starts screwing up programming schedules for the broadcasters.

At least as alarming, for me anyway, was seeing Lee Mason in the stands in some kind of observation or assessment role. How badly and how often do the members of this cosy little fraternity have to screw up before they get banished into oblivion?

Edited 5 August, 2023 by CanadaSaint

[Sarisbury Saint]

32 minutes ago, CanadaSaint said:

As Clarky said, every season they clamp down on something or other, but then it gradually peters out. I suspect that will happen when it starts screwing up programming schedules for the broadcasters.

At least as alarming, for me anyway, was seeing Lee Mason in the stands in some kind of observation or assessment role. How badly and how often do the members of this cosy little fraternity have to screw up before they get banished into oblivion?

I didn’t recognise him, just Kevin Friend.

Too many soft cards for my liking. If they become red, then a lot of games are going to get ruined.

[CanadaSaint]

1 minute ago, Sarisbury Saint said:

I didn’t recognise him, just Kevin Friend.

Too many soft cards for my liking. If they become red, then a lot of games are going to get ruined.

Thanks - my bad. But same applies - dreadful referee.

[danjosaint]

Yes the awful Kevin Friend who is head of second tier referees

[notnowcato]

The Armstrong booking was a result of him kicking the ball away after a piss poor decision. It was a booking but it was never a foul. 
 

Tella’s is completely wrong decision, he showed his frustration away from the ref and not directly to him, that has to be allowed in the game. 

[CB Fry]

Will be interesting to see how much added time there will be when actual injuries and stoppages happen.

For Saturday 3pm games we could see the final whistle being blown on Tuesday afternoon.

[AlexLaw76]

It wont last, Arteta and Klopp will get away with it in the technical areas, lots of time wasting and "shit-housery" will go on from the big boys, and that will be that.

Edited 5 August, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[Whitey Grandad]

56 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

The Armstrong booking was a result of him kicking the ball away after a piss poor decision. It was a booking but it was never a foul. 
 

Tella’s is completely wrong decision, he showed his frustration away from the ref and not directly to him, that has to be allowed in the game. 

No it doesn’t. It has to be stopped, along with the mass confrontations. We are losing referees at the grass roots level and the attitude of the players is one factor. Youngsters see these overhyped stars get away with it and think that it’s acceptable.

[Chewy]

45 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

No it doesn’t. It has to be stopped, along with the mass confrontations. We are losing referees at the grass roots level and the attitude of the players is one factor. Youngsters see these overhyped stars get away with it and think that it’s acceptable.

Completely agree - justifying ArmAs dissent by claiming it was a wrong decision (debatable) is justifying the behaviour which has ruined the game for years. Suck it up - refs make mistakes but a lot less mistakes than most players.

I’ll be the first to admit it seemed a lot of bookings for minor things, especially incongruous compared with Windass not getting a booking for his second rash challenge, but we just need time to adjust and get used to it. 
And if it stops issues quickly escalating into the ugly mass confrontations that mar the game, and especially favour the big, “untouchable” clubs, whilst setting a better example to kids and improving grassroots football, I’m all for it.

As for the time issue - probably a touch excessive, especially the first half. But just over a year ago we had about 3 minutes of football in the second period of extra time in the champions league final due to outrageous time wasting from Real Madrid, including one player going down 3 times for an age. Add the time on and make him go off the pitch for 30 seconds each time and that behaviour stops.

It needs to happen to regain control. I don’t doubt it’ll be watered down as the season progresses but it’s long overdue imho.

[niceandfriendly]

53 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

No it doesn’t. It has to be stopped, along with the mass confrontations. We are losing referees at the grass roots level and the attitude of the players is one factor. Youngsters see these overhyped stars get away with it and think that it’s acceptable.

If the reaction is directed at the ref then I totally agree. But anger not aimed at the officials can’t be banned, we don’t want to sterilise the game and take out all emotions. This isn’t bowls. 

[Saint_clark]

9 minutes ago, niceandfriendly said:

If the reaction is directed at the ref then I totally agree. But anger not aimed at the officials can’t be banned, we don’t want to sterilise the game and take out all emotions. This isn’t bowls. 

I agree, the Tella one was overzealous enforcement of the rules. He simply waved his arm around and said "he ran into me!" when he was penalised for a supposed foul. 

[Whitey Grandad]

40 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

I agree, the Tella one was overzealous enforcement of the rules. He simply waved his arm around and said "he ran into me!" when he was penalised for a supposed foul. 

His reaction was more extreme than than. Plus we don’t know if he said anything.

[Saint_clark]

4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

His reaction was more extreme than than. Plus we don’t know if he said anything.

It really wasn't, and the camera was on him the entire time you can clearly see him say "he ran into me". 

[whelk]

Wonder if the bookies have caught on with the likely yellow card odds?

You can also bet on passes completed by players and we were off the scale last night and bookies clearly hadn’t factored our new possession style so was a killing to be made. 

 

[The Kraken]

I’m with the refs on this, I think the constant abuse of refs has got worse over the years where it’s now almost considered acceptable. And as Gramps says, loads of refs don’t want to do grass roots level because of the abuse they get, the example set comes from the very top. I’d noticed in the past few years that Saints were absolutely complicit in the shithousery of kicking the ball away after getting whistled for a foul, so we’re hardly getting harshly treated now for it. Tella, I can understand it’s harsh but if it goes some way to stopping the ridiculous confrontations that refs often get for making decisions, so be it.

If managers can also be reigned in from constantly slagging off decisions all the time in their post match reckoning (rather than addressing their own failings), that would also be a step forward.

[Lord Duckhunter]

There’s only one way to stop time wasting and that’s to change the time from 90mins to a ball in play figure. I’ve no idea what it is, but I imagine about 60 mins is probably about right. 2 X 30 min halves and clock stops when balls not in play.
 

I imagine it’s harder to do so  at grass roots & lower level,  so probably the reason it’s not done. But with all the will in the world you won’t stop time wasting until it becomes pointless. 

[ant]

Haven't we said for years that if the actual laws of the game were enforced, players would soon stop the dissent?

I'd say the high number of cards yesterday was more a good cross-section of the state of dissent than a damning indictment on this new approach.

If you don't want soft cards and to potentially harm your team it's simple: cut it out.

RE: more added time, the average time the ball is in play has been observed at circa 55 minutes.

Too often I've seen 3 minutes added on in a second half where there's been 6 substitutions, a goalkeeper wasting entire minutes at a time, etc. etc.

This may not be the perfect solution but it's a step in the right direction.

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

There’s only one way to stop time wasting and that’s to change the time from 90mins to a ball in play figure. I’ve no idea what it is, but I imagine about 60 mins is probably about right. 2 X 30 min halves and clock stops when balls not in play.
 

I imagine it’s harder to do so  at grass roots & lower level,  so probably the reason it’s not done. But with all the will in the world you won’t stop time wasting until it becomes pointless. 

It's really not that hard to do. Fourth official has a stop watch, as soon as a flag is waved or a whistle blown he stops it, as soon as the ball is thrown or kicked he restarts it again. Fourth official also blows the full time whistle in this scenario. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

29 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

It's really not that hard to do. Fourth official has a stop watch, as soon as a flag is waved or a whistle blown he stops it, as soon as the ball is thrown or kicked he restarts it again. Fourth official also blows the full time whistle in this scenario. 

You don’t tend to have 4th officials at grass roots level. My lad plays in the Wessex league and I’ve never seen one (mind you they probably don’t officiate from the bar, so I could have missed it)& I dread to think who’d want the gig when The dog & duck meet The Farmers Arms on Sunday morning. 

I’d be amazed if they fundamentally changed the length of professional game & leave the semi pro & amateur game at 90 mins (I’m not saying they shouldn’t, just that they won’t). 

Edited 5 August, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[Simon3737]

6 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

It wont last, Arteta and Klopp will get away with it in the technical areas, lots of time wasting and "shit-housery" will go on from the big boys, and that will be that.

I’m sure you’re right, but I think this is the biggest problem. If they announce some new rule at the start of the season they need to stick to it for the whole season and reassess next summer. Subtlety changing the rules every few months (in response to moans from ‘top 6’ managers and their media mates)  is simply unfair. We all need to know what the rules are and they need to be consistently applied throughout a season, August to May. Never happens though.

[tdmickey3]

Whatever rules they make in the game require the referees to implement them correctly but on so many occasions they fail miserably.

Some of the yellow cards last night were ridiculous and some incidents deserved to be yellows but were ignored.

This one person from coaching team in the technical area rule is utterly stupid and an unnecessary, who thought that up?

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, Simon3737 said:

I’m sure you’re right, but I think this is the biggest problem. If they announce some new rule at the start of the season they need to stick to it for the whole season and reassess next summer. Subtlety changing the rules every few months (in response to moans from ‘top 6’ managers and their media mates)  is simply unfair. We all need to know what the rules are and they need to be consistently applied throughout a season, August to May. Never happens though.

Something like touchline etiquette is bad enough, the worst one was when they changed the handball rule midway through the season. 

[Whitey Grandad]

55 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

Whatever rules they make in the game require the referees to implement them correctly but on so many occasions they fail miserably.

Some of the yellow cards last night were ridiculous and some incidents deserved to be yellows but were ignored.

This one person from coaching team in the technical area rule is utterly stupid and an unnecessary, who thought that up?

It wasn’t for coaching. It was for waving an imaginary card.

[Saint_clark]

17 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It wasn’t for coaching. It was for waving an imaginary card.

Another thing that was clamped down on years back and then allowed over time.

[Dr Who?]

Now on this topic, I have just come back from Carlisle v Fleetwood and apart from the 6 minutes and the 11 minutes added time, I did not see any evidence of the clamping down on ‘unnecessary’ fouling, time wasting or kicking the ball away. As a matter of fact there was some terrible fouls that went unpunished, goalkeepers wasting time and the ball getting kicked away after a free kick had been given. If there was a clamp down in league one and two I think a lot of games would be called off due to to many players getting sent off. Having said this, it seems these rules only apply for the first booking, then the referee bottles it and you can do what you like on a yellow! 

[derry]

It's about time we copied Rugby and with the yellow card give a time penalty off the field. Due to the footballers discipline ramping it up from ten minutes to twenty to thirty would make managers clamp down. Failing that make it red for indiscipline and crowding the referee. Clean the bloody game up it's a disgrace.

[AlexLaw76]

Before the premier season has started, Guardiola is already morning. Just need Klopp to be all passive aggressive about it all, and we will be back to nearer 4 mins added on time

Edited 8 August, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[sibster]

On 05/08/2023 at 12:36, Saint_clark said:

It's really not that hard to do. Fourth official has a stop watch, as soon as a flag is waved or a whistle blown he stops it, as soon as the ball is thrown or kicked he restarts it again. Fourth official also blows the full time whistle in this scenario. 

It works just fine in rugby league with the referee signalling when to start and stop the clock. It would mean an alteration to the laws of the game (the ref would no longer be the "sole arbitor of time" but I wouldn't have an issue with that. 

On a slightly related note, the difference between players attitudes to refs on football and rugby is huge, footballers could learn a lot about respect! 

[HarvSFC]

Varane and Guardiola didn't have the same energy for player safety and fatigue when their teams were jetting around USA, Japan, South Korea, Norway, Ireland and Scotland this summer to face the likes of Real Madrid, Borussia Dortmund, Bayern Munich and Atletico Madrid.

They're talking as if it's 10 minutes added on from 0 minutes last season. 

[whelk]

Ten Haag can fuck off too. These arrogant managers cunts are from a mould

[sledger]

i think its brillant,however i would go a step further and do away with so called injury time,have a game clock that stops when the ball is dead.Still card the time wasters but we get the full time and if the only argument is trains home then start 30 minutes earlier.The top clubs will baulk against it because they win most games anyway.Didnt we all get sick and tired of players going down with fake injuries to stop play,cant believe there are fans against this.

[Pamplemousse]

Ref tonight was shit, he was the biggest time waster of anyone, taking a fucking age whenever he booked someone.

[Fan The Flames]

On 05/08/2023 at 15:46, Saint_clark said:

Something like touchline etiquette is bad enough, the worst one was when they changed the handball rule midway through the season. 

I agree changing rules mid season is wrong, especially when its prompted by the moanings from the big managers. Although the handball rule was so wrong, it had to be changed. I think it hit Eric Diers hand when he was facing the wrong way, which showed how wrong the rule was.

Another rule change that fizzled out, was the extra 10 yards for dissent, saw it used once or twice and that's it.

[Fan The Flames]

When a players kick the ball away after a free kick is given, its not always a show of dissent, it's done to allow their team to reset in to a defensive position. It might not be right but it's more gamesmanship then a show of dissent towards the ref. 

[Whitey Grandad]

3 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

When a players kick the ball away after a free kick is given, it’s not always a show of dissent, it's done to allow their team to reset in to a defensive position. It might not be right but it's more gamesmanship then a show of dissent towards the ref. 

Correct. It has its own clause in the Laws. “Delaying the restart of play”

[Wade Garrett]

The time-wasting and shithousery really made me question whether I actually liked football any more.

It infuriated me last season.

I’m glad they are trying to stamp it out.  Fuck the whining managers.  Fuck players walking off when subbed.  Fuck the play-acting to get the game stopped.  Fuck the time it takes to celebrate a goal and then walk back to your half.  Fuck keepers taking the piss with goal  kicks.  Fuck all the annoying cunts.

[Whitey Grandad]

34 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

The time-wasting and shithousery really made me question whether I actually liked football any more.

It infuriated me last season.

I’m glad they are trying to stamp it out.  Fuck the whining managers.  Fuck players walking off when subbed.  Fuck the play-acting to get the game stopped.  Fuck the time it takes to celebrate a goal and then walk back to your half.  Fuck keepers taking the piss with goal  kicks.  Fuck all the annoying cunts.

I’m with you all the way. What concerns me about this new method of adding time is that there’s no incentive to get a move on. Players a managers will simply say “ stick it on at the end”.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The most pointless virtue signalling from refs is booking the keeper for time wasting. No way in a million years they’ll ever send one off for 2 yellows, so they just make a token effort to speed up, without actually doing so. I was always hoping someone like Mike Dean would send one off eventually. 

[miserableoldgit]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/23414753/lee-mason-blunder-pgmol-return-var-controversy/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunfootballfacebook100823&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3K1bY_oM7U4cB4aRPj4tQivBMwapIF_jvfjzvICoP8qPzA_HUCLlJunIU#Echobox=1691615296

[kwsaint]

Yesterday, we had 19 minutes added time including 13 minutes at the end of the second half. I don’t think I’ve ever seen as much added on.

[Saint_clark]

27 minutes ago, kwsaint said:

Yesterday, we had 19 minutes added time including 13 minutes at the end of the second half. I don’t think I’ve ever seen as much added on.

Good to see to be fair, although we'd have been cursing it if we'd gone into 13 minutes of injury time at 4-3.

[Sheaf Saint]

37 minutes ago, kwsaint said:

Yesterday, we had 19 minutes added time including 13 minutes at the end of the second half. I don’t think I’ve ever seen as much added on.

Rightly so. The time-wasting from Hudds while they were leading was pathetic, with the worst culprit being their keeper who went down holding his head when all he had done was bend down to pick up the ball. It was almost Rivaldo-esque.

I was so willing us to score another goal or two in stoppage time, because it would have been no more than their shithousery deserved.

[Kenilworthy]

35 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Rightly so. The time-wasting from Hudds while they were leading was pathetic, with the worst culprit being their keeper who went down holding his head when all he had done was bend down to pick up the ball. It was almost Rivaldo-esque.

I was so willing us to score another goal or two in stoppage time, because it would have been no more than their shithousery deserved.

What would really have made a statement would have been Edozie going down injured as Huddersfield tried to restart the game

[Turkish]

The spurs manager nailed it the other day. Other sports are constantly looking to make the game more flowing football they’re constantly looking for ways to slow it down and be more draconian. The blue card/sin bin idea is in theory a good one but he was right all that’ll happen is the other team will time waste to get those ten minutes done with the ball out of play as much as possible. The pissing about drawing lines for offside with VAR to see if someone is a centremetre offside is also ridiculous but there been done to death. All these silly things they bring in are just ruining the game not improving it. 

[Wade Garrett]

Too many times the ref couldn’t wait to stop the game to get their physios on.  And there was me thinking the game should only be stopped for a head injury.

How many times did the ref drop ball to their keeper?

 

[adrian lord]

I reckon the ref was having his Annual Appraisal yesterday. There was a performative aspect him. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

58 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Too many times the ref couldn’t wait to stop the game to get their physios on.  And there was me thinking the game should only be stopped for a head injury.

How many times did the ref drop ball to their keeper?

 

Counted at least four times. The one with the keeper was laughable. 

[Midfield_General]

4 hours ago, Turkish said:

The spurs manager nailed it the other day. Other sports are constantly looking to make the game more flowing football they’re constantly looking for ways to slow it down and be more draconian. The blue card/sin bin idea is in theory a good one but he was right all that’ll happen is the other team will time waste to get those ten minutes done with the ball out of play as much as possible. The pissing about drawing lines for offside with VAR to see if someone is a centremetre offside is also ridiculous but there been done to death. All these silly things they bring in are just ruining the game not improving it. 

What makes even less sense in this regard is that so many of the rules/ processes that are already in place are such a mess. Handball, offside, VAR - they’re all a shitshow and have been for ages. Managers and players are saying they don’t understand them and are begging for them to be simplified or made more consistent. How about sorting those out before bringing in even more stuff to fuck up?