goodymatt Posted 28 August, 2023 Share Posted 28 August, 2023 23 hours ago, Smirking_Saint said: If its an ACL then you aren’t really in any significant pain so Id imagine its that I actually went on and played another 20 mins after I did mine… before collapsing spectacularly when I tried to turn Think pain might be variable with an ACL? Examples like VVD just walking off the pitch and then Rodriguez, Broja and Orsic screaming loudly and in agony. Nightmare for Jack, finally looked settled as an important player and now captain and he’s obviously out for a long time, if not the entire season. Is Holgate the answer? At least the window is still open to do something about this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 28 August, 2023 Share Posted 28 August, 2023 1 hour ago, goodymatt said: Think pain might be variable with an ACL? Examples like VVD just walking off the pitch and then Rodriguez, Broja and Orsic screaming loudly and in agony. Nightmare for Jack, finally looked settled as an important player and now captain and he’s obviously out for a long time, if not the entire season. Is Holgate the answer? At least the window is still open to do something about this. I think it probably depends on the rest of the trauma, I was quite ‘lucky’ that I didn’t damage any of the other structures in the knee tbh Shame for Stephens but the JS/JB partnership has never worked, JB + SC looked great yesterday and I expect we’ll now see JB + MH or even Wood which, imo is a better option overall 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 28 August, 2023 Share Posted 28 August, 2023 Might have to force Bella Kotchap to stay now. He's only 21 so a year in the championship shouldn't do him any harm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpin4rizeal Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Seems russ is adamant on getting him in the team now . In ways you can see why, he’s always been pretty good when roaming forward and pretty decent passer for a centre back. Also he’s very vocal and passionate and has some good leadership qualities I think it’s also possible he’s improved quite a lot since we last saw a lot of him. Seemed to have s great spell with Bournemouth. its a brave decision by Russ though and one that be up for a lot of criticism if it doesn’t work instantly. most people will want the thb/bed combo after it worked so well big decision but I think he’s kinda earned enough trust to make this call 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee On Solent Saint Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 19 minutes ago, pimpin4rizeal said: Also he’s very vocal and passionate and has some good leadership qualities A lot of players down the leagues have these qualities. Doesn't mean they should be in a Championship team challenging for promotion. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugenhagen Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 3 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said: A lot of players down the leagues have these qualities. Doesn't mean they should be in a Championship team challenging for promotion. That is not what he is saying... You just cherry picked one part of that post 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee On Solent Saint Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 18 minutes ago, bugenhagen said: That is not what he is saying... You just cherry picked one part of that post 😉 I did, but I could have easily have taken issue with the other parts of the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmes_and_Watson Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 He does offer some thing the other 2 CBs don't. I can see advantages when we need someone to provide defensive cover but also drive from deeper positions or add options to midfield when we're needing a push. I can also see him at full back, in that they're inverted anyway. Definitely good to have in the squad. And there's the qualities given above he brings to the team anyway. However, if we had a full strength team, doing well, it would be difficult to start him. But he's versatile, and we have developing players whose form can dip, or injuries like Downes. So plenty of starting opportunities, but not necessarily every game. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Convict Colony Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Captain Jack was the best in all the pirate films Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SotonianWill Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 1 hour ago, Convict Colony said: Captain Jack was the best in all the pirate films Running to the railroad track, run along with Captain Jack. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 Needs to not be playing CB when THB and Jan are fit...... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintNewForest Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 22 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: Needs to not be playing CB when THB and Jan are fit...... Except the defence was looking wobbly before Stephens came back into the side so not sure what your point is ... but get that he's the fall guy online. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErwinK1961 Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 44 minutes ago, SaintNewForest said: Except the defence was looking wobbly before Stephens came back into the side so not sure what your point is ... but get that he's the fall guy online. Only lost one league game this season that he’s started in - Millwall. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted March 9 Share Posted March 9 We’ve let in 10 goals in the four games he’s started in… his presence disrupts the defensive line because he pushes forward, facilitating the need for THB then having to pull back into CB to cover… which is fine, but that in turn exposes our right flank so he’s stuck in two minds Stephens drives into midfield also affect the balance of Downes etc, does he engage the other midfielders ? Does he offer passing lanes? It all just looks confusing Stats wise what does he offer ? His oassing stats are average, he only won 1 of his four ground challenges Regardless of your thoughts on him this experiment is disruptive and confusing 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osvaldorama Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 4 hours ago, Smirking_Saint said: We’ve let in 10 goals in the four games he’s started in… his presence disrupts the defensive line because he pushes forward, facilitating the need for THB then having to pull back into CB to cover… which is fine, but that in turn exposes our right flank so he’s stuck in two minds Stephens drives into midfield also affect the balance of Downes etc, does he engage the other midfielders ? Does he offer passing lanes? It all just looks confusing Stats wise what does he offer ? His oassing stats are average, he only won 1 of his four ground challenges Regardless of your thoughts on him this experiment is disruptive and confusing Absolutely nailed it. I like him, I like his attitude. But it’s very simple. He’s our 3rd best CB. He shouldn’t be playing when the other 2 are fit & rested if we are serious about going up. Martin has lost the plot here. Stephens isn’t some player like VVD that you build the team around 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 The insanity for me is not that he's in the team, it's playing THB at right-back. If you want to shoe horn in Stephens (and I'm not saying you do), play him at right back while KWP is out. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatlesaint Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 3 hours ago, SaintBobby said: The insanity for me is not that he's in the team, it's playing THB at right-back. If you want to shoe horn in Stephens (and I'm not saying you do), play him at right back while KWP is out. I said that yesterday, he's played right back before. Why move one of the best defenders in the league from his best position when IF for whatever reason Stephens has to be in the team, you only need to make one change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintant Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 If you have a right back who is fit and plays the role to a good standard then give him a start rather than picking a centre back in his place. James Bree must be fuming as he sits on the bench watching centre backs trying, and largely failing, to play in his specialist position. RM needs to sort this out although presumably KWP will be back after the break. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 (edited) In isolation I don't think Jack has played badly - but it's unsettled the team unit and there is more space between the lines than there has been for a while, bigger gaps between the CB's etc. It's not all on him personally, but since he's been back in the team we have been conceding goals at ridiculous levels. I thought we looked much more balanced when he went off yesterday. I think the problem we have is that he's the 'captain', so needs to be shown to be playing etc. I think we went too quickly making him captain, AA was perfectly fine during that run we had - and he merited a place in the side, so you didn't end up shoehorning him just because he's the 'captain'. Edited March 10 by S-Clarke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintant Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 2 minutes ago, S-Clarke said: In isolation I don't think Jack has played badly - but it's unsettled the team unit and there is more space between the lines than there has been for a while, bigger gaps between the CB's etc. It's not all on him personally, but since he's been back in the team we have been conceding goals at ridiculous levels. I thought we looked much more balanced when he went off yesterday. I think the problem we have is that he's the 'captain', so needs to be shown to be playing etc. I think we went too quickly making him captain, AA was perfectly fine during that run we had - and he merited a place in the side, so you didn't end up shoehorning him just because he's the 'captain'. If one of the criteria being used to select him is because he's captain then that's simply ludicrous. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Just now, saintant said: If one of the criteria being used to select him is because he's captain then that's simply ludicrous. It feels like it, and the fact he has a 'voice' - Martin has claimed that the team needs Jack to help lead them at the moment, which I found complete and utter nonsense. They didn't need him during October, November, December or January. I'd say he's been the one thing we 'don't' need at the mo. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 I actually thought Jack had a good game yesterday but, as others have said, there's no point playing well individually if it's going to interfere with the 'automatisms' of the team as a whole. We seemed somewhat disjointed at the back yesterday at times, which is hardly surprising when you've got players playing out of their natural position. Russ has said several times in recent press conferences that he's guilty of over-thinking team selections... Maybe he should start to take on board his own advice... Of course, a win's a win, and it ended up being a convincing one, but we certainly don't make things easy for ourselves during the course of the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 (edited) 39 minutes ago, S-Clarke said: It feels like it, and the fact he has a 'voice' - Martin has claimed that the team needs Jack to help lead them at the moment, which I found complete and utter nonsense. They didn't need him during October, November, December or January. I'd say he's been the one thing we 'don't' need at the mo. It feels exactly like this, always has done this season. RM made a rod for his own back installing Stephens as skipper. Maybe his grand plan was that Janny B was moving on so the partnership would be Stephens and A.N.Other (we signed Holgate before Stephens got injured then THB after), who knows. In any case the goals against stats speak for themselves (although stats were only invented for Asian betting markets…) and we just don’t look as cohesive a unit when we fuck about with lineups and formations. In the Echo recently Martin again said his lineups are about trying to get all of Stephens, Bednarek and THB on the pitch. But that shoehorning players into positions isn’t the reason we’re now looking more porous. Edited March 10 by The Kraken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 27 minutes ago, The Kraken said: In the Echo recently Martin again said his lineups are about trying to get all of Stephens, Bednarek and THB on the pitch. Did he explain why he wanted all three? Was it to add a little more height at set pieces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 2 minutes ago, Chez said: Did he explain why he wanted all three? Was it to add a little more height at set pieces? In his pre match pressers, he has been open about getting players on the pitch who deserve to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 3 minutes ago, Chez said: Did he explain why he wanted all three? Was it to add a little more height at set pieces? Nope, just that he thinks they’re all brilliant and they all deserve to play. https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/24163995.southamptons-martin-explains-made-many-defence-changes/ Sounds like he’s trying to convince himself that playing a lineup with players out of position is absolutely the right thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Just now, AlexLaw76 said: In his pre match pressers, he has been open about getting players on the pitch who deserve to be there. I see. Obviously with KWP out we haven't had a lot of choice, but when he's back fit the manager will have to make a decision on his best CB pairing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 3 minutes ago, Chez said: I see. Obviously with KWP out we haven't had a lot of choice, but when he's back fit the manager will have to make a decision on his best CB pairing. unless he keeps the 3, and puts KwP left back.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpin4rizeal Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 18 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said: Needs to not be playing CB when THB and Jan are fit...... I wonder if he might try a 3-4-3 to accommodate stephens when kwp is back. Would probably need to lose Stuart Armstrong . But would give Stephens more license to roam forward into midfield when in possession .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintant Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 18 minutes ago, Chez said: I see. Obviously with KWP out we haven't had a lot of choice, but when he's back fit the manager will have to make a decision on his best CB pairing. Call me old fashioned but, with KWP unfit, I'd have played James Bree a recognised right back at er.......right back yesterday. Not sure why RM didn't think of it. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambtiss Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 52 minutes ago, pimpin4rizeal said: I wonder if he might try a 3-4-3 to accommodate stephens when kwp is back. Would probably need to lose Stuart Armstrong . But would give Stephens more license to roam forward into midfield when in possession .. Lose our best attacking midfielder to accommodate a centre half who leaves us exposed when he strolls into midfield. Not for me. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmes_and_Watson Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 6 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said: In his pre match pressers, he has been open about getting players on the pitch who deserve to be there. "I can see why playing AA in goal this week might have looked odd. But the most deserving players in training apart from him were all defenders. So they all started, and someone had to replace Baz." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 6 hours ago, saintant said: Call me old fashioned but, with KWP unfit, I'd have played James Bree a recognised right back at er.......right back yesterday. Not sure why RM didn't think of it. Sounds like a plan, but maybe Bree is not quite fit enough to play a full game. Not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 I like Jack, he’s a decent solid pro, but fuck me, why is Lego pushing him into a John Stones type role. It’s fucking crazy. Play 2 of Janny B, THB & Jack at centre half, and full backs as full backs. I can see why he might want JS in there as he’s a decent passer of the ball, for a centre half. But that’s the point, he’s a centre half not a midfielder. Bree & Manning should have played yesterday. End of…. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 (edited) 7 hours ago, S-Clarke said: It's not all on him personally, but since he's been back in the team we have been conceding goals at ridiculous levels. I thought we looked much more balanced when he went off yesterday. This is simply.and demonstrably not true. He came into the team just before Xmas and we won 5 and drew 2 (not all starts), 3.goals.conceded in that run. Then he was out for Rotherham, Huddersfield and Bristol City, we conceded 6 in those latter 2 games, that's when the problems started. Came back in and we won 2-0 (WBA). The defensive issues have started when teams decided to attack us and showed up defensive frailities that were hidden before, as well as injuries to Manning, Bree, KWP and Downes (protection for the defence). By the way I don't think Bree is fully fit yet. Edited March 10 by VectisSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusic Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 13 minutes ago, VectisSaint said: The defensive issues have started when teams decided to attack us and showed up defensive frailities that were hidden before, as well as injuries to Manning, Bree, KWP and Downes (protection for the defence). By the way I don't think Bree is fully fit yet. I think some of this is more accurate than just reducing the fact we have conceded more goals lately to Jack Stephens playing more. I get that its disrupted the CB pairing and personally wouldn't have chosen to do that but IMO Downes absence was a bigger factor in the games we lost (Bristol City and Hull in particular) and as you say other teams have worked out some ways to target us whereas many teams over Dec/Jan seemed happy to sit back and wait for us to beat them. Huddersfield were the team that highlighted it and then Hull in particular carried out a gameplan very well - as opponents are entitled to! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintant Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 28 minutes ago, VectisSaint said: This is simply.and demonstrably not true. He came into the team just before Xmas and we won 5 and drew 2 (not all starts), 3.goals.conceded in that run. Then he was out for Rotherham, Huddersfield and Bristol City, we conceded 6 in those latter 2 games, that's when the problems started. Came back in and we won 2-0 (WBA). The defensive issues have started when teams decided to attack us and showed up defensive frailities that were hidden before, as well as injuries to Manning, Bree, KWP and Downes (protection for the defence). By the way I don't think Bree is fully fit yet. Why do you think that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 8 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said: In his pre match pressers, he has been open about getting players on the pitch who deserve to be there. 8 hours ago, The Kraken said: Nope, just that he thinks they’re all brilliant and they all deserve to play. https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/24163995.southamptons-martin-explains-made-many-defence-changes/ Sounds like he’s trying to convince himself that playing a lineup with players out of position is absolutely the right thing to do. Nobody ‘deserves’ to get a game. They’re paid a fortune and if that means watching from the bench then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Challenger Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 Jack is like that faithful old sheepdog that really can't do it's job anymore. Time to back the Land Rover over it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmes_and_Watson Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 4 minutes ago, Challenger said: Jack is like that faithful old sheepdog that really can't do it's job anymore. Time to back the Land Rover over it. Breaking news... Jack Stephens in injury scare after freak car park incident. "I was just going to my car after training," said the undroppable defender, when a combination of me running out to the command of a whistle, and some random guy in a Landrover, left me like this." Concerns may prove unfounded, as the vocal skipper said "With me being shoe-horned into various shapes, another dent shouldn't make a difference. Wish I knew who was driving that Land Rover though." 🙂 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint Posted March 10 Share Posted March 10 1 hour ago, VectisSaint said: This is simply.and demonstrably not true. He came into the team just before Xmas and we won 5 and drew 2 (not all starts), 3.goals.conceded in that run. Then he was out for Rotherham, Huddersfield and Bristol City, we conceded 6 in those latter 2 games, that's when the problems started. Came back in and we won 2-0 (WBA). The defensive issues have started when teams decided to attack us and showed up defensive frailities that were hidden before, as well as injuries to Manning, Bree, KWP and Downes (protection for the defence). By the way I don't think Bree is fully fit yet. In those seven games before Xmas and January, he only played more than 30 minutes in two of them so he didn't contribute a lot to our unbeaten run. However, I do agree that teams have seen how Bristol City attacked us and others are now doing a higher press and that's causing us problems. But surely the main point is that THB is our best centre back with Bednarek so they should play together. Personally, if KWP and Bree are fit, I wouldn't have Jack in the team but he has played right back and left back, so if he has to play, he should be the one to move to the left or right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 (edited) Granted that Jan. B and THB are first choice CB's, things happen ...and with KWP out injured it's important to get the balance correct and Jack is essentially a right-sided player. At this stage of the season, we don't have to play everyone for 95 mins. and having him around either a first choice or sub, is very useful. Jack is also our longest-serving player having signed at age 16, and his experience and spirit makes up for other shortcomings that are frequently pointed out. RM praises his place in the dressing room and he is a good role model for younger players. The average age in the squad is (apparently) under 24 - even with players like; Jack, Fraser, Stuart A. Adam. A and Rothwell on the books. What Ted Bates always called " the right balance of youth and experience ". With an eventual promotion ...I wouldn't expect to see them all as first-choice players next season, but recalling that both Steven Davis and Shane Long could still put in a shift at 34 /35....we might still have one or two of the names here in a few year or two. Edited March 14 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 On 10/03/2024 at 20:24, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said: In those seven games before Xmas and January, he only played more than 30 minutes in two of them so he didn't contribute a lot to our unbeaten run. However, I do agree that teams have seen how Bristol City attacked us and others are now doing a higher press and that's causing us problems. But surely the main point is that THB is our best centre back with Bednarek so they should play together. Personally, if KWP and Bree are fit, I wouldn't have Jack in the team but he has played right back and left back, so if he has to play, he should be the one to move to the left or right. If KWP and Bree are fit I would agree with you, but they haven't been. Bree came back against Liverpool and he clearly wasn't 100% from the way he was blowing out of his arse when he was subbed. Also agree that playing THB on the right wasn't a good idea, Taylor is normally calm and totally reliable but he had his worst game for us, lost his head against Sunderland, I still can't figure out what the mad 15 minutes was all about, why did everyone go into panic mode? By the way it was Huddersfield that first showed how to attack us not Brizzle, remember they were 2-0 and 3-1 up before we pulled back to win 5-3, this from a team we expected to beat easily. I don't see how you can say Stephens didn't contribute much to the 7 games after his return, 232 minutes is roughly 35% (2.5 full games). Much bigger problem to me is Manning, would play Bree over him every time, or even Meghoma for that matter (I see Juan Larios is not far off returning, another opportunity to leave Manning on the bench, but I suspect it won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Wayman Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 On 10/03/2024 at 20:12, Challenger said: Jack is like that faithful old sheepdog that really can't do it's job anymore. Time to back the Land Rover over it. Exactly! I imagine Martin thinks he is a world class juggler but playing THB - probably the best CB in this league - at RB to make a space for an ageing sheepdog is a recipe for disaster. It's an insult to the player so come the end of the season, why would he want to stay here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_SFC Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 We've looked at our best this season with Bree, Bednarek, THB and KWP as the back 4. Wish we would go back to this for the run in but I just can't see it unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 1 minute ago, Harry_SFC said: We've looked at our best this season with Bree, Bednarek, THB and KWP as the back 4. Wish we would go back to this for the run in but I just can't see it unfortunately. and miss out on Super Jack half time team talks? What are you thinking man? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_SFC Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 1 minute ago, Turkish said: and miss out on Super Jack half time team talks? What are you thinking man? Of course not. Jack should be deployed in the legendary front sweeper position with a licence to roam forward and use all that pace of his. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 7 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said: Of course not. Jack should be deployed in the legendary front sweeper position with a licence to roam forward and use all that pace of his. he is our version of "Trent" isn't he. Have to find a place for him somewhere he's that good. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarehamSaintJames Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 Our end to the season will be determined on whether he plays or not. Why RM doesn’t revert back to a trusted back four that went 25 games unbeaten I don’t know. If he “must” play Stephens then have the balls to drop one of THB or Jan Bednarek, both of which don’t deserve it. It just concerns me that the season could be completely torpedoed, and should an injury happen to one of those CB’s there’s no back up on the bench. Play two, have one as sub. Simple. If a full back in injured, swap them for a full back, keep the shape and consistency. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 On 14/03/2024 at 17:12, Harry_SFC said: We've looked at our best this season with Bree, Bednarek, THB and KWP as the back 4. Wish we would go back to this for the run in but I just can't see it unfortunately. The issue here though is not Stephens, if everyone is fully fit it will be KWP, THB, JB and bloody Ryan Manning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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