The Kraken Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 18 minutes ago, saintant said: If you need to draw lines to prove a player is offside by 0.000000001 mm then it is a ridiculous system that is not fit for purpose. Use it only to rectify clear and obvious errors where an official has got it wrong and we can all see a player was offside from a replay without drawing bloody lines. Change the rule to that and it's the same for everyone . It's obviously not a fool proof system so let's have some common sense and stop all this nonsense. But what is the benchmark of clear and obvious? 10cm? 30cm? A metre? Once you introduce a “factual” system like VAR it’s pretty difficult to add in benefit of the doubt and “clear and obvious”. Something is either shown to be offside, or it isn’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfc4prem Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 18 minutes ago, The Kraken said: But what is the benchmark of clear and obvious? 10cm? 30cm? A metre? Once you introduce a “factual” system like VAR it’s pretty difficult to add in benefit of the doubt and “clear and obvious”. Something is either shown to be offside, or it isn’t. Agreed. So should VAR be limited to events and fouls; like Henry's handball against Ireland, or blatant red cards only given as yellows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 3 minutes ago, sfc4prem said: Agreed. So should VAR be limited to events and fouls; like Henry's handball against Ireland, or blatant red cards only given as yellows? If we’re going to have VAR then it’s best off sticking to things like offside and ball out of play. A bit like GLT. Fouls are very opinion based and I really don’t like decisions being re-refereed in game time. I also dont like big mistakes being made, but I refer to my earlier point, it’s extremely difficult once you have VAR to have a benchmark of what is a clear and obvious error. The genue is out of the bottle though, so all we can hope for is better officials to do a better job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 In the Chelsea City game there was the penalty review with Grealish (?), it hit his hand and went out, it clearly hit his hand in all the reviews but deemed not a penalty………..after which City got awarded a goal kick, yet everyone on the planet saw the ball off Grealishs hand and out for a Chelsea corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintant Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 34 minutes ago, The Kraken said: But what is the benchmark of clear and obvious? 10cm? 30cm? A metre? Once you introduce a “factual” system like VAR it’s pretty difficult to add in benefit of the doubt and “clear and obvious”. Something is either shown to be offside, or it isn’t. The benchmark, is can a VAR official see from replays whether a player is offside without drawing lines? Make the decision based on that. If it is so marginal as to need lines just give the bloody goal. Use it to correct any clear errors. VAR is ruining the game. Coventry should have been awarded that goal and be in the Final. Using lines drawn on a flawed system is not absolute proof as it cannot factor in the exact moment the ball was kicked so let's introduce some common sense. Others will disagree and I get the arguments but that's what I'd like to see. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Just now, saintant said: The benchmark, is can a VAR official see from replays whether a player is offside without drawing lines? Make the decision based on that. If it is so marginal as to need lines just give the bloody goal. Use it to correct any clear errors. VAR is ruining the game. Coventry should have been awarded that goal and be in the Final. Using lines drawn on a flawed system is not absolute proof as it cannot factor in the exact moment the ball was kicked so let's introduce some common sense. Others will disagree and I get the arguments but that's what I'd like to see. Why is that better? If we’re having to go to VAR anyway, what difference do lines make? I don’t understand the logic, it’s either offside or it isn’t and once you’ve gone to VAR you may as well make it as accurate as you can. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintant Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 2 minutes ago, John Boy Saint said: In the Chelsea City game there was the penalty review with Grealish (?), it hit his hand and went out, it clearly hit his hand in all the reviews but deemed not a penalty………..after which City got awarded a goal kick, yet everyone on the planet saw the ball off Grealishs hand and out for a Chelsea corner. I don't think Micheal Oliver could have retrospectively awarded a corner. He'd given a goal kick as didn't spot that the ball hit Grealish on the hand but VAR automatically checks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintant Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Just now, The Kraken said: Why is that better? If we’re having to go to VAR anyway, what difference do lines make? I don’t understand the logic, it’s either offside or it isn’t and once you’ve gone to VAR you may as well make it as accurate as you can. I've already said others will disagree and this is purely how I'd prefer to see VAR used. I get that some prefer exactness to the nth degree but that's not me and I hate seeing goals disallowed because someone has drawn a line 'proving' a part of a forward's anatomy is 0.000001 mm ahead of the defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 I wonder how far we are from having offsides be as quick and accurate as GLT. They’ve already demoed semi autonomous offside systems in the WC and it seemed to speed things up a bit. Getting an onside/offside decision with 5 seconds would go a long way to sorting it IMO. The tech might be a way off though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 8 minutes ago, saintant said: I don't think Micheal Oliver could have retrospectively awarded a corner. He'd given a goal kick as didn't spot that the ball hit Grealish on the hand but VAR automatically checks. Part of VAR is to correct clear and obvious errors, yes I know corners and throw-ins being reviewed would make games last days, but that penalty review and outcome, to me, shows how flawed the whole thing is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Would be hilarious if the PL docked Forest more points for suggesting VAR official was corrupt. Starting to hate that club with their made up victim complex 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 14 minutes ago, saintant said: The benchmark, is can a VAR official see from replays whether a player is offside without drawing lines? Make the decision based on that. If it is so marginal as to need lines just give the bloody goal. Use it to correct any clear errors. VAR is ruining the game. Coventry should have been awarded that goal and be in the Final. Using lines drawn on a flawed system is not absolute proof as it cannot factor in the exact moment the ball was kicked so let's introduce some common sense. Others will disagree and I get the arguments but that's what I'd like to see. Again, you’re falling under the assumption of the one screenshot being shown to the public being the only information the VAR looks at. If a player is offside in both frames either side of what is deemed to be contact with the ball, then he’s offside. You’re saying use VAR to correct clear and obvious errors, then you’re saying don’t draw the lines. That makes no sense, it was clearly and obviously offside - as per the current rules of the game - when the lines were drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintstowin Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 3 hours ago, TheAlehouseBrawlers said: United have history with these sort of things https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39018813 It says we were brave! It's not a new thing after all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midfield_General Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 (edited) 12 minutes ago, The Kraken said: I wonder how far we are from having offsides be as quick and accurate as GLT. They’ve already demoed semi autonomous offside systems in the WC and it seemed to speed things up a bit. Getting an onside/offside decision with 5 seconds would go a long way to sorting it IMO. The tech might be a way off though. They're bringing the semi-automated offside technology into the Prem next year. Although being the Premier League, rather than bringing it in at the beginning of a season, they're going to bring it in at some unspecified point once the season has already started, because of course they are. Edited April 21 by Midfield_General 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintant Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 11 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: Again, you’re falling under the assumption of the one screenshot being shown to the public being the only information the VAR looks at. If a player is offside in both frames either side of what is deemed to be contact with the ball, then he’s offside. You’re saying use VAR to correct clear and obvious errors, then you’re saying don’t draw the lines. That makes no sense, it was clearly and obviously offside - as per the current rules of the game - when the lines were drawn. So what constitutes a frame? Surely a long pass is going to have a different number of frames to a short pass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint lard Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 So if Leeds lose tonight,and Leicester beat us ( which I strongly suspect) Leicester are promoted. I really fucking hope Martin and the players feel the pain of failure. I’ll be amazed if we beat them. So weak and fragile. We have no one else to blame but ourselves. not sure if I want a Leeds win tbh. 🤷🏻♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 8 hours ago, saintant said: So what constitutes a frame? Surely a long pass is going to have a different number of frames to a short pass? Industry standard would be 24 frames a second. It's got nothing to do with how someone kicks the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dman Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 How different this place could, probably should have been this morning. If both WBA and us could stuck just 1 of our chances away, it'd have been in our hands. Bottle jobs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfc4prem Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Dman said: How different this place could, probably should have been this morning. If both WBA and us could stuck just 1 of our chances away, it'd have been in our hands. Bottle jobs. I'm sure the two teams of bottlers will meet again in the first play off. It would make me angry if I thought about it too much. So many potential what if moments this season. Let's enjoy the playoffs and see where it takes us. Edited April 22 by sfc4prem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyNumber7 Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 23 minutes ago, Dman said: How different this place could, probably should have been this morning. If both WBA and us could stuck just 1 of our chances away, it'd have been in our hands. Bottle jobs. Indeed, but football is full of ifs and buts. Let's go and have a cracking promotion party at Wembley instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dman Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 24 minutes ago, sfc4prem said: I'm sure the two teams of bottlers will meet again in the first play off. It would make me angry if I thought about it too much. So many potential what if moments this season. Let's enjoy the playoffs and see where it takes us. you can bet your lifes savings that WBA wont be so wasteful that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintant Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 13 hours ago, The Kraken said: But what is the benchmark of clear and obvious? 10cm? 30cm? A metre? Once you introduce a “factual” system like VAR it’s pretty difficult to add in benefit of the doubt and “clear and obvious”. Something is either shown to be offside, or it isn’t. There is a video clip on the Coventry fans forum taken from the side of the pitch where the cross comes in from. It is very damning because it clearly shows that when O'Hare makes the pass to Wright he is being kept onside by Wan Bisaka. You can see it clear as day and the cut lines on the grass prove it beyond any possible doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Kent Saint Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) 14 hours ago, whelk said: Would be hilarious if the PL docked Forest more points for suggesting VAR official was corrupt. Starting to hate that club with their made up victim complex The replay showed that the defender took out the attacker without touching the ball so total failure of VAR and Ref . Edited April 22 by East Kent Saint 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Kent Saint Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 With no VAR the game goes on decision made . VAR introduces delay which disrupts the game and fails to give a definitive decision . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintstowin Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 5 hours ago, saintant said: There is a video clip on the Coventry fans forum taken from the side of the pitch where the cross comes in from. It is very damning because it clearly shows that when O'Hare makes the pass to Wright he is being kept onside by Wan Bisaka. You can see it clear as day and the cut lines on the grass prove it beyond any possible doubt. I've seen that and it looks dodgy (for VAR that is). The other issue is that the pass was a flick/scoop and therefore usually this means the ball rolls up the foot a bit before release so point of release is more complicated. Plus Wright's movement at the time of the pass is across rather than forwards (in order to stay onside) so any millisecond affects it massively. All these things make the lines harder to draw and less accurate in my view, and give weight to the view that VAR for offside may not be good enough. For all VAR offsides I remain unconvinced any camera can tell when the ball leaves the boot to the degree necessary for it to be foolproof. I have enjoyed not putting up with it this season. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Kent Saint Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Barca denied a goal to take a 3-2 lead against Real as they don't use goal line technology in Spain ! The one piece of tech that seems to work , they use useless VAR though 😀 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 2 hours ago, saintstowin said: I've seen that and it looks dodgy (for VAR that is). The other issue is that the pass was a flick/scoop and therefore usually this means the ball rolls up the foot a bit before release so point of release is more complicated. Plus Wright's movement at the time of the pass is across rather than forwards (in order to stay onside) so any millisecond affects it massively. All these things make the lines harder to draw and less accurate in my view, and give weight to the view that VAR for offside may not be good enough. For all VAR offsides I remain unconvinced any camera can tell when the ball leaves the boot to the degree necessary for it to be foolproof. I have enjoyed not putting up with it this season. If it’s the same video as I’ve seen it certainly looks dodgy but also it does not show the position of the striker and the defender at the point the ball is kicked. I still think it’s a monumentally tight call. In real time and even the freeze frame I thought it was offside. Var lines are very close, that extra video puts a different slant on it but is entirely inconclusive on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 6 minutes ago, The Kraken said: If it’s the same video as I’ve seen it certainly looks dodgy but also it does not show the position of the striker and the defender at the point the ball is kicked. I still think it’s a monumentally tight call. In real time and even the freeze frame I thought it was offside. Var lines are very close, that extra video puts a different slant on it but is entirely inconclusive on its own. So normally you should give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 1 minute ago, Patches O Houlihan said: So normally you should give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team... That was supposed to be the sentiment yes, many years ago. In truth it probably never happened, before VAR I’d suggest linos were more inclined to stick their flag up rather than keep it down when in doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Leeds one down after 7 mins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint NL Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 1 minute ago, Patches O Houlihan said: Leeds one down after 7 mins All set up for Saints to win tomorrow and let us play the "what if" game again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Middleborough properly fired up for this - great game so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Penalty to Leeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 1-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 1-2 Leeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Hill Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Leeds will be much too strong for us in the playoffs (if it happens). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 1 minute ago, Andy Hill said: Leeds will be much too strong for us in the playoffs (if it happens). We have a 100% record against Leeds this season. Don't know why you are so certain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 2-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Now 2-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfc4prem Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 I'm looking forward to the playoffs. Anything could happen. Surely we're better set for it than we were last time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 2-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) 2-3 Leeds - should have been offside Edited April 22 by Patches O Houlihan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixedkebab Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Clearly offside would probably rather Leeds go up with Leicester anyway, wouldn’t want those fuckers in the play offs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack rill Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 the beauty of not having VAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 6 minutes ago, sfc4prem said: I'm looking forward to the playoffs. Anything could happen. Surely we're better set for it than we were last time? Well, we will be more in the Derby County role (3rd, not far off autos) than the Saints role (scraping in sixth). We should win our semi final this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Leeds under pressure. More goals in this one. HT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusic Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 Hopefully we face WBA rather than Norwich. WBA fixtures fairly kind so hopefully they hold onto 5th ahead of Norwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 37 minutes ago, Mixedkebab said: Clearly offside would probably rather Leeds go up with Leicester anyway, wouldn’t want those fuckers in the play offs Ipswich up over Leicester please. Leicester are in real trouble if they don't go up and Ipswich in the Prem will just be fun. In the play off final even with Baz and Stu I back us to beat anyone in a one off game bar Leeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty's Caddy Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 There ya go edozie/sulemana, that’s what an end product looks like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_SFC Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) Do not want to play Leeds in the play offs. Their attack is different class. Our best hope of promotion is Ipswich finishing third. This is based on Leicester going up, given their last two fixtures. Edited April 22 by Harry_SFC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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