Other Games 23/24

[The Kraken]

  On 21/04/2024 at 19:55, saintant said:

If you need to draw lines to prove a player is offside by 0.000000001 mm then it is a ridiculous system that is not fit for purpose. Use it only to rectify clear and obvious errors where an official has got it wrong and we can all see a player was offside from a replay without drawing bloody lines. Change the rule to that and it's the same for everyone . It's obviously not a fool proof system so let's have some common sense and stop all this nonsense.

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But what is the benchmark of clear and obvious? 10cm? 30cm? A metre? Once you introduce a “factual” system like VAR it’s pretty difficult to add in benefit of the doubt and “clear and obvious”. Something is either shown to be offside, or it isn’t.

[sfc4prem]

  On 21/04/2024 at 20:16, The Kraken said:

But what is the benchmark of clear and obvious? 10cm? 30cm? A metre? Once you introduce a “factual” system like VAR it’s pretty difficult to add in benefit of the doubt and “clear and obvious”. Something is either shown to be offside, or it isn’t.

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Agreed. So should VAR be limited to events and fouls; like Henry's handball against Ireland, or blatant red cards only given as yellows?

[The Kraken]

  On 21/04/2024 at 20:35, sfc4prem said:

Agreed. So should VAR be limited to events and fouls; like Henry's handball against Ireland, or blatant red cards only given as yellows?

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If we’re going to have VAR then it’s best off sticking to things like offside and ball out of play. A bit like GLT. Fouls are very opinion based and I really don’t like decisions being re-refereed in game time. I also dont like big mistakes being made, but I refer to my earlier point, it’s extremely difficult once you have VAR to have a benchmark of what is a clear and obvious error.

The genue is out of the bottle though, so all we can hope for is better officials to do a better job.

[John Boy Saint]

In the Chelsea City game there was the penalty review with Grealish (?), it hit his hand and went out, it clearly hit his hand in all the reviews but deemed not a penalty………..after which City got awarded a goal kick, yet everyone on the planet saw the ball off Grealishs hand and out for a Chelsea corner. 
 

[saintant]

  On 21/04/2024 at 20:16, The Kraken said:

But what is the benchmark of clear and obvious? 10cm? 30cm? A metre? Once you introduce a “factual” system like VAR it’s pretty difficult to add in benefit of the doubt and “clear and obvious”. Something is either shown to be offside, or it isn’t.

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The benchmark, is can a VAR official see from replays whether a player is offside without drawing lines? Make the decision based on that. If it is so marginal as to need lines just give the bloody goal.  Use it to correct any clear errors. VAR is ruining the game.  Coventry should have been awarded that goal and be in the Final. Using lines drawn on a flawed system is not absolute proof as it cannot factor in the exact moment the ball was kicked so let's introduce some common sense. Others will disagree and I get the arguments but that's what I'd like to see. 

[The Kraken]

  On 21/04/2024 at 21:07, saintant said:

The benchmark, is can a VAR official see from replays whether a player is offside without drawing lines? Make the decision based on that. If it is so marginal as to need lines just give the bloody goal.  Use it to correct any clear errors. VAR is ruining the game.  Coventry should have been awarded that goal and be in the Final. Using lines drawn on a flawed system is not absolute proof as it cannot factor in the exact moment the ball was kicked so let's introduce some common sense. Others will disagree and I get the arguments but that's what I'd like to see. 

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Why is that better? If we’re having to go to VAR anyway, what difference do lines make? I don’t understand the logic, it’s either offside or it isn’t and once you’ve gone to VAR you may as well make it as accurate as you can.

[saintant]

  On 21/04/2024 at 21:05, John Boy Saint said:

In the Chelsea City game there was the penalty review with Grealish (?), it hit his hand and went out, it clearly hit his hand in all the reviews but deemed not a penalty………..after which City got awarded a goal kick, yet everyone on the planet saw the ball off Grealishs hand and out for a Chelsea corner. 
 

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I don't think Micheal Oliver could have retrospectively awarded a corner. He'd given a goal kick as didn't spot that the ball hit Grealish on the hand but VAR automatically checks.

[saintant]

  On 21/04/2024 at 21:09, The Kraken said:

Why is that better? If we’re having to go to VAR anyway, what difference do lines make? I don’t understand the logic, it’s either offside or it isn’t and once you’ve gone to VAR you may as well make it as accurate as you can.

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I've already said others will disagree and this is purely how I'd prefer to see VAR used. I get that some prefer exactness to the nth degree but that's not me and I hate seeing goals disallowed  because someone has drawn a line 'proving' a part of a forward's  anatomy is 0.000001 mm ahead of the defender.

[The Kraken]

I wonder how far we are from having offsides be as quick and accurate as GLT. They’ve already demoed semi autonomous offside systems in the WC and it seemed to speed things up a bit. Getting an onside/offside decision with 5 seconds would go a long way to sorting it IMO.  The tech might be a way off though.

[John Boy Saint]

  On 21/04/2024 at 21:09, saintant said:

I don't think Micheal Oliver could have retrospectively awarded a corner. He'd given a goal kick as didn't spot that the ball hit Grealish on the hand but VAR automatically checks.

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Part of VAR is to correct clear and obvious errors, yes I know corners and throw-ins being reviewed would make games last days, but that penalty review and outcome, to me, shows how flawed the whole thing is. 

[whelk]

Would be hilarious if the PL docked Forest more points for suggesting VAR official was corrupt. Starting to hate that club with their made up victim complex

[Lighthouse]

  On 21/04/2024 at 21:07, saintant said:

The benchmark, is can a VAR official see from replays whether a player is offside without drawing lines? Make the decision based on that. If it is so marginal as to need lines just give the bloody goal.  Use it to correct any clear errors. VAR is ruining the game.  Coventry should have been awarded that goal and be in the Final. Using lines drawn on a flawed system is not absolute proof as it cannot factor in the exact moment the ball was kicked so let's introduce some common sense. Others will disagree and I get the arguments but that's what I'd like to see. 

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Again, you’re falling under the assumption of the one screenshot being shown to the public being the only information the VAR looks at. If a player is offside in both frames either side of what is deemed to be contact with the ball, then he’s offside.

You’re saying use VAR to correct clear and obvious errors, then you’re saying don’t draw the lines. That makes no sense, it was clearly and obviously offside - as per the current rules of the game - when the lines were drawn.

[saintstowin]

  On 21/04/2024 at 18:22, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

United have history with these sort of things

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39018813

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It says we were brave! It's not a new thing after all. 

[Midfield_General]

  On 21/04/2024 at 21:20, The Kraken said:

I wonder how far we are from having offsides be as quick and accurate as GLT. They’ve already demoed semi autonomous offside systems in the WC and it seemed to speed things up a bit. Getting an onside/offside decision with 5 seconds would go a long way to sorting it IMO.  The tech might be a way off though.

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They're bringing the semi-automated offside technology into the Prem next year.

Although being the Premier League, rather than bringing it in at the beginning of a season, they're going to bring it in at some unspecified point once the season has already started, because of course they are.  

Edited 21 April, 2024 by Midfield_General

[saintant]

  On 21/04/2024 at 21:25, Lighthouse said:

Again, you’re falling under the assumption of the one screenshot being shown to the public being the only information the VAR looks at. If a player is offside in both frames either side of what is deemed to be contact with the ball, then he’s offside.

You’re saying use VAR to correct clear and obvious errors, then you’re saying don’t draw the lines. That makes no sense, it was clearly and obviously offside - as per the current rules of the game - when the lines were drawn.

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So what constitutes a frame? Surely a long pass is going to have a different number of frames to a short pass?

[saint lard]

So if Leeds lose tonight,and Leicester beat us ( which I strongly suspect) Leicester are promoted. 
I really fucking hope Martin and the players feel the pain of failure. 
I’ll  be amazed if we beat them. So weak and fragile. We have no one else to blame but ourselves. 
not sure if I want a Leeds win tbh. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[CB Fry]

  On 21/04/2024 at 21:38, saintant said:

So what constitutes a frame? Surely a long pass is going to have a different number of frames to a short pass?

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Industry standard would be 24 frames a second. It's got nothing to do with how someone kicks the ball.

[Dman]

How different this place could, probably should have been this morning. If both WBA and us could stuck just 1 of our chances away, it'd have been in our hands. 

Bottle jobs. 

[sfc4prem]

  On 22/04/2024 at 08:25, Dman said:

How different this place could, probably should have been this morning. If both WBA and us could stuck just 1 of our chances away, it'd have been in our hands. 

Bottle jobs. 

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I'm sure the two teams of bottlers will meet again in the first play off.

It would make me angry if I thought about it too much. So many potential what if moments this season.

Let's enjoy the playoffs and see where it takes us.

Edited 22 April, 2024 by sfc4prem

[LuckyNumber7]

  On 22/04/2024 at 08:25, Dman said:

How different this place could, probably should have been this morning. If both WBA and us could stuck just 1 of our chances away, it'd have been in our hands. 

Bottle jobs. 

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Indeed, but football is full of ifs and buts.

Let's go and have a cracking promotion party at Wembley instead.

[Dman]

  On 22/04/2024 at 08:27, sfc4prem said:

I'm sure the two teams of bottlers will meet again in the first play off.

It would make me angry if I thought about it too much. So many potential what if moments this season.

Let's enjoy the playoffs and see where it takes us.

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you can bet your lifes savings that WBA wont be so wasteful that day. 

[saintant]

  On 21/04/2024 at 20:16, The Kraken said:

But what is the benchmark of clear and obvious? 10cm? 30cm? A metre? Once you introduce a “factual” system like VAR it’s pretty difficult to add in benefit of the doubt and “clear and obvious”. Something is either shown to be offside, or it isn’t.

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There is a video clip on the Coventry fans forum taken from the side of the pitch where the cross comes in from.  It is very damning because it clearly shows that when O'Hare makes the pass to Wright he is being kept onside by Wan Bisaka. You can see it clear as day and the cut lines on the grass prove it beyond any possible doubt.

[East Kent Saint]

  On 21/04/2024 at 21:22, whelk said:

Would be hilarious if the PL docked Forest more points for suggesting VAR official was corrupt. Starting to hate that club with their made up victim complex

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The replay showed that the defender took out the attacker without touching the ball so total failure of VAR and Ref .

Edited 22 April, 2024 by East Kent Saint

[East Kent Saint]

With no VAR the game goes on decision made . VAR introduces delay which disrupts the game and fails to give a definitive decision .

 

[saintstowin]

  On 22/04/2024 at 10:10, saintant said:

There is a video clip on the Coventry fans forum taken from the side of the pitch where the cross comes in from.  It is very damning because it clearly shows that when O'Hare makes the pass to Wright he is being kept onside by Wan Bisaka. You can see it clear as day and the cut lines on the grass prove it beyond any possible doubt.

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I've seen that and it looks dodgy (for VAR that is). The other issue is that the pass was a flick/scoop and therefore usually this means the ball rolls up the foot a bit before release so point of release is more complicated. Plus Wright's movement at the time of the pass is across rather than forwards (in order to stay onside) so any millisecond affects it massively.

All these things make the lines harder to draw and less accurate in my view, and give weight to the view that VAR for offside may not be good enough.

For all VAR offsides I remain unconvinced any camera can tell when the ball leaves the boot to the degree necessary for it to be foolproof. 

I have enjoyed not putting up with it this season. 

[East Kent Saint]

Barca denied a goal to take a 3-2 lead against Real as they don't use goal line technology in Spain ! The one piece of tech that seems to work , they use useless VAR though 😀

[The Kraken]

  On 22/04/2024 at 15:50, saintstowin said:

I've seen that and it looks dodgy (for VAR that is). The other issue is that the pass was a flick/scoop and therefore usually this means the ball rolls up the foot a bit before release so point of release is more complicated. Plus Wright's movement at the time of the pass is across rather than forwards (in order to stay onside) so any millisecond affects it massively.

All these things make the lines harder to draw and less accurate in my view, and give weight to the view that VAR for offside may not be good enough.

For all VAR offsides I remain unconvinced any camera can tell when the ball leaves the boot to the degree necessary for it to be foolproof. 

I have enjoyed not putting up with it this season. 

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If it’s the same video as I’ve seen it certainly looks dodgy but also it does not show the position of the striker and the defender at the point the ball is kicked. 

I still think it’s a monumentally tight call. In real time and even the freeze frame I thought it was offside. Var lines are very close, that extra video puts a different slant on it but is entirely inconclusive on its own.

[Patches O Houlihan]

  On 22/04/2024 at 18:50, The Kraken said:

If it’s the same video as I’ve seen it certainly looks dodgy but also it does not show the position of the striker and the defender at the point the ball is kicked. 

I still think it’s a monumentally tight call. In real time and even the freeze frame I thought it was offside. Var lines are very close, that extra video puts a different slant on it but is entirely inconclusive on its own.

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So normally you should give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team...

[The Kraken]

  On 22/04/2024 at 18:57, Patches O Houlihan said:

So normally you should give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team...

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That was supposed to be the sentiment yes, many years ago. In truth it probably never happened, before VAR I’d suggest linos were more inclined to stick their flag up rather than keep it down when in doubt.

[Patches O Houlihan]

Leeds one down after 7 mins

[Saint NL]

  On 22/04/2024 at 19:12, Patches O Houlihan said:

Leeds one down after 7 mins

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All set up for Saints to win tomorrow and let us play the "what if" game again 

[Patches O Houlihan]

Middleborough properly fired up for this - great game so far

[Whitey Grandad]

Penalty to Leeds

[Whitey Grandad]

1-1

[Patches O Houlihan]

1-2 Leeds

[Andy Hill]

Leeds will be much too strong for us in the playoffs (if it happens).

[Patches O Houlihan]

  On 22/04/2024 at 19:23, Andy Hill said:

Leeds will be much too strong for us in the playoffs (if it happens).

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We have a 100% record against Leeds this season. Don't know why you are so certain

[Patches O Houlihan]

2-2

[Whitey Grandad]

Now 2-2

[sfc4prem]

I'm looking forward to the playoffs. Anything could happen.

 

Surely we're better set for it than we were last time?

[Whitey Grandad]

2-3

[Patches O Houlihan]

2-3 Leeds - should have been offside

Edited 22 April, 2024 by Patches O Houlihan

[Mixedkebab]

Clearly offside

would probably rather Leeds go up with Leicester anyway, wouldn’t want those fuckers in the play offs 

[mack rill]

the beauty of not having VAR 

[CB Fry]

  On 22/04/2024 at 19:38, sfc4prem said:

I'm looking forward to the playoffs. Anything could happen.

 

Surely we're better set for it than we were last time?

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Well, we will be more in the Derby County role (3rd, not far off autos) than the Saints role (scraping in sixth).

We should win our semi final this time.

[Patches O Houlihan]

Leeds under pressure. More goals in this one. HT

[Dusic]

Hopefully we face WBA rather than Norwich. WBA fixtures fairly kind so hopefully they hold onto 5th ahead of Norwich.

[SNSUN]

  On 22/04/2024 at 19:44, Mixedkebab said:

Clearly offside

would probably rather Leeds go up with Leicester anyway, wouldn’t want those fuckers in the play offs 

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Ipswich up over Leicester please. Leicester are in real trouble if they don't go up and Ipswich in the Prem will just be fun. In the play off final even with Baz and Stu I back us to beat anyone in a one off game bar Leeds.

[Matty's Caddy]

There ya go edozie/sulemana, that’s what an end product looks like

 

[Harry_SFC]

Do not want to play Leeds in the play offs. Their attack is different class. Our best hope of promotion is Ipswich finishing third. 

This is based on Leicester going up, given their last two fixtures. 

Edited 22 April, 2024 by Harry_SFC