Gavin Bazunu

[Whitey Grandad]

On 08/11/2023 at 23:18, Saint_clark said:

Which stats do you consider to be "real" out of interest? They're literally a factual representation of what has happened. 

They are miles away from being “factual”.

The only figures that mean anything are the goals scored. The rest is imagined and invented.

[Saint_clark]

4 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

They are miles away from being “factual”.

The only figures that mean anything are the goals scored. The rest is imagined and invented.

Goals conceded is imagined and invented?

[St. Ciervo]

Another good game from Baz today. Excellent reactionary save on the line through the scramble in front. 

To the normal questions... I do believe WBA would trade keepers today. I have no reason to believe their keeper would have stopped that final flurry of opportunities, and Baz's distribution was far more confident and well-placed through the majority.

[niceandfriendly]

Recently he’s been looking pretttyyyy pretttyyyyy pretty good. 

[The Cat]

Fans singing his name at the end as the players applaud the Northam, good to see.

Would like to see that save back as it all happened so fast in the stadium.

Very composed with his passing again.

[Whitey Grandad]

6 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Goals conceded is imagined and invented?

“Goals scored” includes goals scored by the opposition.

 

[Pilchards]

Becoming a good keeper as he has a confident defence ahead of him.

Even Holgate was made to feel comfortable because we defend in two good banks of 4.

Well done Martin & Mowbray.

[Bad Wolf]

Almost like he's a decent keeper isn't it?

[S-Clarke]

His distribution is on a different level to what we've had for many years. Our CB's protected him really well to be honest, but he was called on in the last min and put in a ridiculous block - not sure what part of his body it was. 

He's playing with confidence now and it's good to see. He was hung out to dry last year and he must have some balls to come back from being pummelled for 12 months.

[Bad Wolf]

23 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

His distribution is on a different level to what we've had for many years. Our CB's protected him really well to be honest, but he was called on in the last min and put in a ridiculous block - not sure what part of his body it was. 

He's playing with confidence now and it's good to see. He was hung out to dry last year and he must have some balls to come back from being pummelled for 12 months.

I'd say he's our best ever keeper at distribution but then you have to take into account that he's grown up playing like that whereas for most former keepers, it wasn't really a factor.

[Galway saint]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

I'd say he's our best ever keeper at distribution but then you have to take into account that he's grown up playing like that whereas for most former keepers, it wasn't really a factor.

who do you think he has replaced as the best ever keeper at distribution? 

[ant]

1 hour ago, Galway saint said:

who do you think he has replaced as the best ever keeper at distribution? 

Grobbelaar helped distribute a shitload of dodgy money.

[CanadaSaint]

5 hours ago, Galway saint said:

who do you think he has replaced as the best ever keeper at distribution? 

Probably Shilton, for me, but Bazunu is on a different planet to all of them for ball control (let’s not underestimate that part) and distribution. He is arguably a top five keeper in English football for that, and he’s only 21 - with 6-8 years until he reaches his peak.

That encapsulates the futility of this now 29-page, over-simplistic debate. Shilton was the best keeper in the world for several years, but we couldn’t play a modern “build out from the back” style with him in goal.

Putting it another way, in the hope that Bazunu’s harshest critics will start cutting him some slack, we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

Edited 12 November, 2023 by CanadaSaint

[Galway saint]

2 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

Probably Shilton, for me, but Bazunu is on a different planet to all of them for ball control (let’s not underestimate that part) and distribution. He is arguably a top five keeper in English football for that, and he’s only 21 - with 6-8 years until he reaches his peak.

That encapsulates the futility of this now 29-page, over-simplistic debate. Shilton was the best keeper in the world for several years, but we couldn’t play a modern “build out from the back” style with him in goal.

Putting it another way, in the hope that Bazunu’s harshest critics will start cutting him some slack, we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

that final paragraph has to be one of the more absurd to appear on these boards. 

[CanadaSaint]

19 minutes ago, Galway saint said:

that final paragraph has to be one of the more absurd to appear on these boards. 

You set out your position on this thread very early, and have kept painting yourself into that corner ever since. But at some point you need to put the brush down and try to think a bit more rationally. It's ironic that you take one paragraph out of three and ignore the others to suit your case - that's just like your views on Bazunu.

[Barsiem]

2 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

You set out your position on this thread very early, and have kept painting yourself into that corner ever since. But at some point you need to put the brush down and try to think a bit more rationally. It's ironic that you take one paragraph out of three and ignore the others to suit your case - that's just like your views on Bazunu.

C'mon mate... Baz is doing well but saying he would be in the first team over two of our finest ever GKs just because he is better at distribution is ludicrous.  

As an recent example look at Man Utd.  They released De Gea allegedly because his distribution wasn't good enough and bought in a replacement.  Compare their defensive and overall record to last season and tell me that was a good move

Edited 12 November, 2023 by Barsiem

[The Cat]

I think Canada is stretching the argument a bit too far, however the ability of a keeper with his feet is undeniably crucial to how we play. Imagine Forster or McCarthy attempting this, it would be a disaster!

It's much easier to coach a keeper to have better positioning or to tweak their set position than it is to make their passing better.

[danjosaint]

5 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

 we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

Sorry just choked on my cornflakes 

[Saint Billy]

5 minutes ago, danjosaint said:

Sorry just choked on my cornflakes 

Granola for me but my distribution was poor.

[AlexLaw76]

6 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

My christ. One of the most bizarre things ever written on a message board. Shilton and Neimi were immense keepers. Shilton, one of the greatest English keepers of all time.

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

Give him some slack guys. He's Canadian.

[Ed Rooney]

So I’m confused, are we still definitely going to get relegated if we carry on playing this terrible young goalkeeper who is never going to improve and has never shown any signs he can get better or is it alright now, well at least until next week when he doesn’t get near a shot from 4 yards out 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

Give him some slack guys. He's Canadian.

I'm not your guy, buddy!

[hypochondriac]

7 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

Probably Shilton, for me, but Bazunu is on a different planet to all of them for ball control (let’s not underestimate that part) and distribution. He is arguably a top five keeper in English football for that, and he’s only 21 - with 6-8 years until he reaches his peak.

That encapsulates the futility of this now 29-page, over-simplistic debate. Shilton was the best keeper in the world for several years, but we couldn’t play a modern “build out from the back” style with him in goal.

Putting it another way, in the hope that Bazunu’s harshest critics will start cutting him some slack, we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on here. 

[The Kraken]

Lowest save percentage in the league. But we’re better off with him than Shilts so it’s swings and roundabouts.

[david in sweden]

14 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

His distribution is on a different level to what we've had for many years. Our CB's protected him really well to be honest, but he was called on in the last min and put in a ridiculous block - not sure what part of his body it was. 

He's playing with confidence now and it's good to see. He was hung out to dry last year and he must have some balls to come back from being pummelled for 12 months.

Baz is not alone with criticism of keepers at the highest levels, but he is improving with every game and we should take that into account.

It takes time for a young keeper to develop and very few in any generation have been successful at such a young age. 

One of Baz'  successors at Man City .. James Trafford (?) cost  Burnley  18 million in the summer and look where they are in the Prem. table

but as I've always said......." .a keeper is only as good as the defence in front of him ". 

The season that England keeper Peter Shilton signed for Saints, (1982-83) ..we conceded 19 goals in his first 9 games.. .not all his fault. 

[Bad Wolf]

13 hours ago, Galway saint said:

who do you think he has replaced as the best ever keeper at distribution? 

Good question. Gazza was quite good at playing it out tbf

[Weston Saint]

2 hours ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

Give him some slack guys. He's Canadian.

He is actually an ex Saints Academy Goalkeeper who emigrated to Canada.

[Saint Matty 76]

I'd be lying if I said that I feel comfortable with him in goal but if he can't kick on and take confidence from Preston (goal-ish), Millwall (clean-sheet) and a last minute save with the whole Northam chanting his name then it probably won't ever happen for him.

He isn't going to be replaced so we have to put all our energy into supporting him. Absolutely fantastic distribution again yesterday, which of course is nobodies concern when it comes down to his abilities anyway.

[CanadaSaint]

I knew the post would attract some pelters because some people are unwilling or unable to think about this in a broader context than just some (debatable) shots-saved statistics.

It was based on the entire premise that the role of the keeper has changed significantly - especially in OUR playing style. Shilton was the second-best keeper I ever saw, and Niemi was awesome. Is Bazunu better than them across the old-style skillset? No, of course he isn’t – not even close.

But his ability to be the fulcrum for launching our attacks is far ahead of both of them. That’s no disrespect to Shilton and Niemi, because that skillset wasn’t really an expectation when they were around. It’s a comment on something very important that Bazunu brings to THIS side playing THIS style of football.

On that basis I said we’re a better TEAM with him in the side – not that he’s a better keeper.

He’s 21, and yet to develop a lot of the reading skills, positional sense and anticipation that only come with experience. One of his weaknesses is “cheating” towards the near post, which tended to compromise his positioning, but he’s not doing that as much now. He’s already progressing along that learning curve.

[AlexLaw76]

6 minutes ago, CanadaSaint said:

I knew the post would attract some pelters because some people are unwilling or unable to think about this in a broader context than just some (debatable) shots-saved statistics.

It was based on the entire premise that the role of the keeper has changed significantly - especially in OUR playing style. Shilton was the second-best keeper I ever saw, and Niemi was awesome. Is Bazunu better than them across the old-style skillset? No, of course he isn’t – not even close.

But his ability to be the fulcrum for launching our attacks is far ahead of both of them. That’s no disrespect to Shilton and Niemi, because that skillset wasn’t really an expectation when they were around. It’s a comment on something very important that Bazunu brings to THIS side playing THIS style of football.

On that basis I said we’re a better TEAM with him in the side – not that he’s a better keeper.

He’s 21, and yet to develop a lot of the reading skills, positional sense and anticipation that only come with experience. One of his weaknesses is “cheating” towards the near post, which tended to compromise his positioning, but he’s not doing that as much now. He’s already progressing along that learning curve.

It is getting peters because it is an utterly ridiculous comment, that did not need to be said 

[Saint_clark]

Niemi was great with the ball at his feet anyway, always had brilliant ball control.

[Lord Duckhunter]

We’re a better side with Adam Armstrong in it instead of Jimmy Greaves in his prime. Forget their finishing, Greavsie was crap at pressing from the front and that is what THIS team does. 

Edited 12 November, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[AlexLaw76]

Charlie Alcaraz has better work rate than Matt Le Tissier.........etc

Shilton or Neimi would make us weaker - just bizarre

[Dark Munster]

13 hours ago, Galway saint said:

that final paragraph has to be one of the more absurd to appear on these boards. 

In fairness he may have a point. Niemi is 51 and Shilton is 74.

[notnowcato]

Who signed De Gea in the end?

[Saint Garrett]

2 hours ago, notnowcato said:

Who signed De Gea in the end?

No-one ! Absolutely mad he's sat on his hands. I know he wasn't great for Man Utd in the end, but he's still a class act IMO.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

17 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

Probably Shilton, for me, but Bazunu is on a different planet to all of them for ball control (let’s not underestimate that part) and distribution. He is arguably a top five keeper in English football for that, and he’s only 21 - with 6-8 years until he reaches his peak.

That encapsulates the futility of this now 29-page, over-simplistic debate. Shilton was the best keeper in the world for several years, but we couldn’t play a modern “build out from the back” style with him in goal.

Putting it another way, in the hope that Bazunu’s harshest critics will start cutting him some slack, we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

Citing Shilton or Niemi is a bit of a red herring. Not only has the role of the keeper changed in many systems, but the fitness, development and facilities have also changed along the way too.

Reversing the scenario, let’s put Baz back in the days of ploughed fields, being assaulted by opposition strikers and playing it out to a fullback who has spent as much time in the pub as he has in training that week.

Baz wouldn’t get a look in.

Switching back to this scenario, none of our top goalkeepers would randomly hoof it out in a panic given the chance to do something better. I’d fancy them to adapt to our system far more than I would for Baz to adapt to theirs. It’s a bit of a disservice to their abilities to suggest that, while Baz will seemingly develop in all the areas he’s lacking, that top goalkeepers of the past simply couldn’t.

SR have got Baz in as they want to develop a possession style that begins at the back. Martin fits into that model. Martin would have known about Baz before he joined us, and probably couldn’t believe his luck.

Baz is excellent at picking out passes in a variety of situations. Our defence is getting more stable and better at creating lots of options for him, and that’s brings out more of that from him. There was a game a couple of weeks back, where our defence abandoned Baz to make the most of a situation. I don’t know if its because they’re just comfortable with his skills, or just switched off. Baz did really well with it, and 2 minutes later was making sure the ball, and his defence, were a lot further away from him.

It’s not just the passing, it’s the weight of those passes. When Baz pings one out, it’s at a speed where the receiving player can do something with it. Not just try and control it, and lose any advantage from the pass.

Our more stable defence and control of games (at least for good periods) is also helping Baz. We’re not suicidal in defence from our own attacks. We have better cover when we concede the ball. I’m not sure Baz has improved massively in the areas he’s weakest in, and that’s partly because he’s not had to be overly tested in those areas of late. We’re getting to see games with his strengths on show. I’m sure he’s working away at them in training.

A question is:-
Have Baz’s strengths led to us being a better side, getting us to pick up more points?
 

I think we’re seeing benefits lately. But that certainly wasn’t the case back when the club stuck with him through sheer bloody mindedness when we couldn’t string 3 passes together, regardless of his distribution from the abck. Then we needed someone with other strengths.

Arguably, we would have gone down anyway, and we’re now seeing the benefits of Baz having gone through all that (which I’d not wish on anyone). But just as easily a shot stopper/ physical presence and experienced leader at the club could have made quite a difference.

[david in sweden]

On 12/11/2023 at 19:55, AlexLaw76 said:

Charlie Alcaraz has better work rate than Matt Le Tissier.........etc

Shilton or Neimi would make us weaker - just bizarre

Let's face it.... almost every footballer ever born would have a better work rate than MLT,  but few would get anywhere near his goal tally

(at 30 years of age), or within a mile of his penalty record,  and be lucky to feel that they had  1/10th of his skill on the ball. 

 

RE  Shilton and Niemi ...  Having seen both men play, they were a law unto themselves and D.A.J. for their respective club(s) and countries

- despite the sometimes poor defences they had in front of them. 

Edited 18 November, 2023 by david in sweden

[John B]

Ronnie Whelan Former Republic of Ireland midfielder on RTE

The Dutch get down the sides of our centre-backs so easily. Gavin Bazunu has had to keep on his toes. He's made some big saves tonight.

[Tommy Mulgrew]

And he thinks GB is MOTM, too.

[Spoonman]

He was excellent against Nederland tonight, could’ve been a rugger score

[Tamesaint]

1 hour ago, Spoonman said:

He was excellent against Nederland tonight, could’ve been a rugger score

The BBC Sport website  has "brilliant Bazunu" as one of their headlines. 

[Dusic]

One thing for sure: we will sell him for more than we paid!

[The Cat]

Looks pretty solid in the highlights.

Verbruggen in the Dutch goal was fortunate with that offside.

 

 

[Charlie Wayman]

One lesson life teaches you is that you only miss and value people when they are no longer with us.

[Galway saint]

just watched the highlights and from what i can see he make three saves all of which you’d expect a competent keeper to save.

that’s not a criticism of the lad just I didn’t see it as a brilliant performance from the highlights.

perhaps there was more to see in the full game for those that watched the whole thing 

 

 

[Harry_SFC]

8 hours ago, Dusic said:

One thing for sure: we will sell him for more than we paid!

He is still incredibly young in goalkeeper terms. He is no.1 for his country and his club. His distribution is up there with the best in the country. If he can work on his shot stopping technique then yes, definitely. 

[gio1saints]

Last years goals conceded by saints would have killed most young keepers. 
This years horrible start / run ditto. 

He does not save all the shots he might BUT he has got better and better. Improvement and learning he is demonstrating. Anybody not notice he’s getting better? 

Is there a magic goalie that’s more experienced, a better shot stopper and can actually kick / pass the ball too. Oh, and does not cost over say £15m?
 

I’m not sure there is and what is more I’m not sure what’s happened to any saints fans not feeling empathy for a young player showing the courage he does and has week after week in the context he’s had

Do you think he is deaf to the terrace groans?

That theyve largely stopped to be replaced by fans chanting his name is quite some turnaround. For which he deserves credit not sneering.

I feel proud of him. If we win or not I feel proud for his courage as a Saint. It’s what I love to see in a Saints player and team more than anything.  

[CB Fry]

51 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Last years goals conceded by saints would have killed most young keepers. 
This years horrible start / run ditto. 

He does not save all the shots he might BUT he has got better and better. Improvement and learning he is demonstrating. Anybody not notice he’s getting better? 

Is there a magic goalie that’s more experienced, a better shot stopper and can actually kick / pass the ball too. Oh, and does not cost over say £15m?
 

I’m not sure there is and what is more I’m not sure what’s happened to any saints fans not feeling empathy for a young player showing the courage he does and has week after week in the context he’s had

Do you think he is deaf to the terrace groans?

That theyve largely stopped to be replaced by fans chanting his name is quite some turnaround. For which he deserves credit not sneering.

I feel proud of him. If we win or not I feel proud for his courage as a Saint. It’s what I love to see in a Saints player and team more than anything.  

Forest signed Dean Henderson at the same time last season and he was and is better. He got injured and they covered him with a keeper who was also better.

Let's not try and pretend that Bazunu was the only option we had for a goalkeeper. We didn't need a "magic goalkeeper" we needed one ready for life in the Premier League bottom six. Regardless of what happens now, or in the future, he wasn't. Him being better now doesn't change the past.

 

He's doing better now, at a lower level. We all want that to continue, so spare us your hand-wringing sanctimonious super duper fan act.

Edited 19 November, 2023 by CB Fry