Gavin Bazunu

[Lighthouse]

6 hours ago, Golac's Cunning Stunts said:

Occasional is one or twice a season, not one or twice every 5 or 6 games

He does no such thing, the Plymouth goal was the first goal of the season you can actually call a 'howler'. He's conceded about half a dosen he could have done better with, the same as any other keeper at this level and most in the league above.

[Galway saint]

31 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

He does no such thing, the Plymouth goal was the first goal of the season you can actually call a 'howler'. He's conceded about half a dosen he could have done better with, the same as any other keeper at this level and most in the league above.

i can’t be bothered to go back through them all but the goal conceded against watford was clearly a ‘howler’ 

[Fan The Flames]

18 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

If he wants passes like that then he’s an idiot. There’s a very old maxim that goes “never pass across your own goal area”

That maxim applies to 14 year old and below football. Not mens professional football.

[BARCELONASAINT]

we could all sit here behind our laptops being negative Nancy's and finding fault behind every player we have in our squad, it's so much easier to be negative about things than to be positive.

There are those on here that cannot wait for Baz to make a mistake and then come on here and lambast the lad and make him last seasons, this seasons and seasons to come why we didn't or won't achieve this or that and then there are those....

That take a much more level headed approach and accept we have have one of the youngest goalkeepers who is learning his trade, who will make mistakes along the way, is only human like the rest of us, who is excellent in the way we play, who has clearly got better and better as the season has been progressing and has a bright future ahead of himself.

Get behind the lad and if you have to be a negative Nancy at least try being balanced and recognise the things he does extremely well

[Fan The Flames]

Double post.

Edited January 1 by Fan The Flames

[Charlie Wayman]

17 minutes ago, Galway saint said:

i can’t be bothered to go back through them all but the goal conceded against watford was clearly a ‘howler’ 

You really are a miserable moaning sod. Go and support somebody else and leave Baz alone.

[Galway saint]

14 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

You really are a miserable moaning sod. Go and support somebody else and leave Baz alone.

don’t be pathetic 

[Lord Duckhunter]

41 minutes ago, Galway saint said:

i can’t be bothered to go back through them all but the goal conceded against watford was clearly a ‘howler’ 

At the end of the day he’s an average championship keeper who is excellent with his feet. Personally, I’d prefer an excellent shot stopper who is average with his feet, as I think we’d have more points.

I don’t need stats or any other modern pony to form an opinion, I can see it with my own eyes. There’s too many goals against this season  that he could have done better with (and last season he was a fucking disaster), particularly with long range efforts. Maybe this can be coached out of him, but its a weakness known about since pre Saints days. As Watford showed us, he doesn’t seem to be getting any better with this yet. 

Edited January 1 by Lord Duckhunter

[pimpin4rizeal]

On 31/12/2023 at 13:40, Saint_clark said:

I will admit and have in the past that I have no doubt Bazunu will be a top keeper, in fact I think he'll reach a level that we wouldn't be able to sign him if we hadn't signed him young. 

But once he gets to that point he'll be off to another side anyway, so why the hell should we spend years developing a keeper, putting up with poor performances and tons of mistakes for the first year or two at least, just to ship him off elsewhere for another club to reap the rewards once he actually reaches that level? 

And then probably start the process all over again with another young keeper who we need to accept will make mistakes consistently for 2-3 seasons.

Pretty much sums up how I feel.. if he reaches top level we lose him and it’s not like keepers go for huge money anyway .

its a bit of a flawed idea when in the meantime we have to suffer mistakes for him to learn his trade . 

Also not every young prospect keeper is gonna turn out to be the real deal either look st Angus Gunn before him as an example, 

Edited January 3 by pimpin4rizeal

[Bad Wolf]

36 minutes ago, pimpin4rizeal said:

Pretty much sums up how I feel.. if he reaches top level we lose him and it’s not like keepers go for huge money anyway .

its a bit of a flawed idea when in the meantime we have to suffer mistakes for him to learn his trade . 

Also not every young prospect keeper is gonna turn out to be the real deal either look st Angus Gunn before him as an example, 

How many goals has he actually been responsible for this season though? Sunderland's third, Preston's second and MAYBE Rotherham's? I guess Watford if I am being super harsh but that is every bit Bednerak/THB's fault as well.

I feel that he gets the blame for letting goals in that hardly any keeper would have stopped.

[Bad Wolf]

I also think that modern keepers are judged by the standard or traits of keepers from years gone by. Out of all positions on the field (maybe apart from full back) the role of the keeper has probably changed most. The ability, strength and general practice of your average striker is totally different to how it was years ago. One being the whole "letting goals in at the near post" thing. Every keeper seems to do this now a days and every keeper seems to be ridiculed for it every time it happens. Is it possible that the ball and the person hitting it is now very different that it's now not possible to stop every near post shot?

There are probably things that modern day keepers can do (mainly distribution) that keepers of old would have totally struggled with.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

 Out of all positions on the field (maybe apart from full back) the role of the keeper has probably changed most. The ability, strength and general practice of your average striker is totally different to how it was years ago. 

What a load of old pony. 
 

Apart from full back, the Keeper has changed the most, because strikers are totally different 😂. You’re all over the place….

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What a load of old pony. 
 

Apart from full back, the Keeper has changed the most, because strikers are totally different 😂. You’re all over the place….

A keeper's role has changed

A striker's attributes has changed

[Weston Super Saint]

23 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

A keeper's role has changed

A striker's attributes has changed

How have they changed?

The goal is still the same and the striker has to get the round thing in it. It doesn't seem that different to 1920.

[Bad Wolf]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

How have they changed?

The goal is still the same and the striker has to get the round thing in it. It doesn't seem that different to 1920.

Strikers don't just stand around at the far post waiting for a cross to come in so they can tap in anymore. They're also more aware of the overlap and so their hold up play is more prominent. Now a days, a striker can score 10 goals in a season and still have a great season.

[egg]

26 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

A keeper's role has changed

A striker's attributes has changed

Granted, a keeper's role is different if the team play with the keeper as a kind of sweeper or ball player, but fundamentally they still do what they always have.

You've lost me on strikers being different though. 

[Patches O Houlihan]

39 minutes ago, egg said:

Granted, a keeper's role is different if the team play with the keeper as a kind of sweeper or ball player, but fundamentally they still do what they always have.

You've lost me on strikers being different though. 

The ball design, and the design of the boots has changed though. 

Think of the swerve that JWP could create - Bobby Charlton was not doing that. Material science and technique improvements.

You could also argue that improvements in nutrition, fitness and coaching mean the ball is being hit harder/faster/with less back lift - requiring quicker reflexes. 

Now I’m prepared to agree that maybe a few stand out players historically were delivering similar, but I would say the median top league striker is a far more potent goal scorer now than thirty years ago, never mind sixty years ago. 

 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

Strikers don't just stand around at the far post waiting for a cross to come in so they can tap in anymore. They're also more aware of the overlap and so their hold up play is more prominent. Now a days, a striker can score 10 goals in a season and still have a great season.

When did it change? I had a Quick Look at a striker from the 60s and he didn’t seem to stand around waiting for tap ins. Was it before that as a good striker from 60 years ago seems to be much like a good striker from today 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/52217646
 

[Patches O Houlihan]

55 minutes ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

The ball design, and the design of the boots has changed though. 

Think of the swerve that JWP could create - Bobby Charlton was not doing that. Material science and technique improvements.

You could also argue that improvements in nutrition, fitness and coaching mean the ball is being hit harder/faster/with less back lift - requiring quicker reflexes. 

Now I’m prepared to agree that maybe a few stand out players historically were delivering similar, but I would say the median top league striker is a far more potent goal scorer now than thirty years ago, never mind sixty years ago. 

 

https://www.myfootballfacts.com/premier-league/all-time-premier-league/premier_league_goal_statistics/
 

PL stats - because the game didn’t exist before 1992 😉

Early mid nineties ~2.6 goals/game average across the season. 

Last few years ~2.8 goals/game. That’s 7% more goals scored. 

I was expecting to prove myself wrong!

 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

https://www.myfootballfacts.com/premier-league/all-time-premier-league/premier_league_goal_statistics/
 

PL stats - because the game didn’t exist before 1992 😉

Early mid nineties ~2.6 goals/game average across the season. 

Last few years ~2.8 goals/game. That’s 7% more goals scored. 

I was expecting to prove myself wrong!

 

You've proved that more goals have been scored. Not how or why. I think it's no more than tactics have changed and the game is now more open with more players joining the attack. 

Nutrition etc is relative - all players gain any advantage that gives - not just strikers. 

Anyhow, none of this alters that big Baz let's in shots he should be stopping. 

[Patches O Houlihan]

8 hours ago, egg said:

Nutrition etc is relative - all players gain any advantage that gives - not just strikers. 

If you want to believe that modern nutrition and training can dramatically improve a keeper’s reflexes to match the extra power and bend the ball is being hit with then you’re welcome to but I don’t. 
 

To take motor racing for comparison:

> The cars are faster, brake better, and grip better

>The drivers are fitter, stronger and eat better, and they’ve learned to drive using downforce.

> Do I believe that Max Verstappen’s reflexes are significantly quicker than those of Jim Clark? No I don’t.

[gio1saints]

3 hours ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

If you want to believe that modern nutrition and training can dramatically improve a keeper’s reflexes to match the extra power and bend the ball is being hit with then you’re welcome to but I don’t. 
 

To take motor racing for comparison:

> The cars are faster, brake better, and grip better

>The drivers are fitter, stronger and eat better, and they’ve learned to drive using downforce.

> Do I believe that Max Verstappen’s reflexes are significantly quicker than those of Jim Clark? No I don’t.

Interesting point patches - the point about reflexes in particular. 

I do think good reflexes can be inherited - like any particular gene handed down from generation to generation but Im not sure if it’s been medically identified yet! ( unless the discovery of fast twitch muscle counts) 
 

I also think goalie reflexes can be improved by diet training etc as egg Saint says  

Overall,  I think modern sports science probably trumps you on this. 

Athletes are generally stronger fitter faster than they were 50 years ago. Things like hand eye ball coordination training. Even eye spatial awareness training  ( remember Clive woodwards infamous training ideas?) didn’t even exist then but nowadays it’s trained and standard practise. Athletes can jump higher run faster and for longer. There’s no strong argument to say that reflexes of a goalie have not also improved. And for it to be “significant” means only a millisecond don’t forget. Without the tech data to hand I’d be confident that Baz’s reflexes are better than that of a comparable 20 year old div 2 goalie in 1960. 
NB. Equipment tech has evolved too. That heavy laced often water sodden leather ball being kicked around in the 1969’s has been replaced by lightweight fastertravelling versions. Ditto boots. And pitches. The goalies reactions to perform the same task as a goalie of 50 years earlier by necessity need speed up - and I think they probably have. 

Edited January 4 by gio1saints

[gio1saints]

If anyone’s interested in the FA technical thinking behind modern goalkeeping theory - which is pretty much text book Bazunu and Saints PB football - check out the vid below.

The play is now Saints signature approach so it may help to be informed about what’s the actual rather than made up theory. 

Watching it should help answer some of the “why does he do that” questions of Baz and Saints play in general from the back. Not if it’s right or wrong to play like we do but just more of the theory behind it. 
 

It does not of course explain why he occasionally makes a mess of a save-able shot or like the other day a back pass! 

On the criteria they outline it’s clear to me why RM and many Saints fans ( incl. myself) rate Baz so highly and feel he has a great future. He is an “A” student of this style of goalkeeping play, ( note I still consider him a student) and at age 20/21 is certainly very advanced in it for his age relative to the league and even worldwide. 

NB.  Cue the usual sarcasm and abuse from some simply for posting this as an info guide but I’d rather you save it for your match day rants at Saints, PB football, RM etc. 😏. 

 

 

Edited January 4 by gio1saints

[derry]

On 03/01/2024 at 21:56, Patches O Houlihan said:

The ball design, and the design of the boots has changed though. 

Think of the swerve that JWP could create - Bobby Charlton was not doing that. Material science and technique improvements.

You could also argue that improvements in nutrition, fitness and coaching mean the ball is being hit harder/faster/with less back lift - requiring quicker reflexes. 

Now I’m prepared to agree that maybe a few stand out players historically were delivering similar, but I would say the median top league striker is a far more potent goal scorer now than thirty years ago, never mind sixty years ago. 

 

I think this is the mythical assumption that modern is stronger and quicker. I knew John Sydenham he was the quickest player I've ever seen. Ron Davies was the best header and highest jumper I've ever seen. In my very early days at the Dell in the 1950's I saw Don Roper after he had come back from Arsenal hit a flat volley from the halfway line that went in under the diving goalkeeper and was hit so hard it hit the iron stanchion at the back of the net and came back out under the still airborn goalkeeper. 

[derry]

A few remarks have been made about the heavy leather balls this is a myth because since 1956 at least a new plastic coated valve ball without a lace was used for Saints and all other league matches and everywhere else, sometimes orange sometimes white. It was only junior league and school football where the old leather laced ball was sometimes used. Saints used to raffle the match ball, I won an orange one once. It was called penny on the ball.

[Patches O Houlihan]

3 hours ago, derry said:

I think this is the mythical assumption that modern is stronger and quicker. I knew John Sydenham he was the quickest player I've ever seen. Ron Davies was the best header and highest jumper I've ever seen. In my very early days at the Dell in the 1950's I saw Don Roper after he had come back from Arsenal hit a flat volley from the halfway line that went in under the diving goalkeeper and was hit so hard it hit the iron stanchion at the back of the net and came back out under the still airborn goalkeeper. 

I only got a B at ‘A’ level applied maths, but I suspect the physical laws of projectiles wouldn’t allow this, unless the volley was struck at more than 7ft height. 

[derry]

16 hours ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

I only got a B at ‘A’ level applied maths, but I suspect the physical laws of projectiles wouldn’t allow this, unless the volley was struck at more than 7ft height. 

Roper volleyed at hip height approx, it didn't go very high but it went like a rocket. it was up in the top right hand corner and hit the iron net support they used in those days and went down back under the goalkeeper. I was stood level with Roper behind the dugout and can still see it now. The goalkeeper dived but couldn't reach it and was on his way down when the ball came back out. As a retired airline captain I am well aware of lift, drag and aerodynamics having studied it for a year full time.and refreshed on courses for over forty years. I also had better than 20/20 vision and I know what I saw. Personally I wouldn't be citing 'A' levels as a criteria for expertise as it's pretty much at the bottom of the knowledge window.

[gallaghert366@yahoo.com]

7 minutes ago, derry said:

Roper volleyed at hip height approx, it didn't go very high but it went like a rocket. it was up in the top right hand corner and hit the iron net support they used in those days and went down back under the goalkeeper. I was stood level with Roper behind the dugout and can still see it now. The goalkeeper dived but couldn't reach it and was on his way down when the ball came back out. As a retired airline captain I am well aware of lift, drag and aerodynamics having studied it for a year full time.and refreshed on courses for over forty years. I also had better than 20/20 vision and I know what I saw. Personally I wouldn't be citing 'A' levels as a criteria for expertise as it's pretty much at the bottom of the knowledge window.

The demise of the lace up ball was in part a consequence of Ronnie Moore, West Ham, losing an eye from a loose lace.

[StDunko]

Lumley's decent performance today hopefully spurs him on to up his game.

[Patches O Houlihan]

3 hours ago, derry said:

Roper volleyed at hip height approx, it didn't go very high but it went like a rocket. it was up in the top right hand corner and hit the iron net support they used in those days and went down back under the goalkeeper. I was stood level with Roper behind the dugout and can still see it now. The goalkeeper dived but couldn't reach it and was on his way down when the ball came back out. As a retired airline captain I am well aware of lift, drag and aerodynamics having studied it for a year full time.and refreshed on courses for over forty years. I also had better than 20/20 vision and I know what I saw. Personally I wouldn't be citing 'A' levels as a criteria for expertise as it's pretty much at the bottom of the knowledge window.

This description I can completely believe. But that isn't how you first described it:

"I saw Don Roper after he had come back from Arsenal hit a flat volley from the halfway line that went in under the diving goalkeeper and was hit so hard it hit the iron stanchion at the back of the net and came back out under the still airborn goalkeeper."

If you had written the accurate description instead of a load of bollocks, then perhaps you wouldn't have felt the need to be such a condescending twat. I passed the aptitude tests to be a commercial pilot - just not the medical. 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, StDunko said:

Lumley's decent performance today hopefully spurs him on to up his game.

Yep. He really needs to get his arse in gear and improve on 6 goals conceded in 12 games.

[tdmickey3]

Really looking good at moment

[Toadhall Saint]

3 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

Really looking good at moment

Yep

[sfc4prem]

Superb today. Even with the goal I think he did all he could. Some great saves.

[saintant]

7 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

Superb today. Even with the goal I think he did all he could. Some great saves.

Agree, Baz pulled off some very good saves near the end to keep our 2 goal lead intact when those in front of him decided to have a collective brain fart instigated by Stephens.

[Harry_SFC]

2 hours ago, sfc4prem said:

Superb today. Even with the goal I think he did all he could. Some great saves.

I've seen some people blaming him for the goal. If he doesn't come out and try to get the ball then Lowe has a free header 8 yards out. So I don't think you can put much of the blame on him for that. At the end of the day it was offside and handball.

[S-Clarke]

2 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

I've seen some people blaming him for the goal. If he doesn't come out and try to get the ball then Lowe has a free header 8 yards out. So I don't think you can put much of the blame on him for that. At the end of the day it was offside and handball.

People putting the goal on him are stretching really, I think for some fans every single goal we ever concede will be his fault.

He has been such an important figure in this run, pivotal in fact - we'd have lost at Preston had he not scored!

Edited January 20 by S-Clarke

[Saint_clark]

He should have done better with the goal, but he made excellent saves to make up for it. 

He didn't "do all he could"...not sure why he was slowly shuffling out towards the player, he should have been running and reaching for the cross at full stretch. There's no need for him to maintain a low posture like he does when the ball is flying in the air.

[Wade Garrett]

Saved us in the second half.

[Saint_clark]

6 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

He should have done better with the goal, but he made excellent saves to make up for it. 

He didn't "do all he could"...not sure why he was slowly shuffling out towards the player, he should have been running and reaching for the cross at full stretch. There's no need for him to maintain a low posture like he does when the ball is flying in the air.

You can laugh all you like @tdmickey3but I just watched it back for the first time and it only reaffirms what I'm saying. When the cross is hit the Swansea player is on the edge of the D, when he connects with it he's just outside the 6 yard box. That means when the cross is hit, Bazunu is at most 6 yards from where the cross ends up and the attacking player is 17-18 yards from it. 

You might think he shouldn't do better in those circumstances but I bet you that Bazunu, Martin and the goalkeeping coaches will be taking it as a learning point for him. 

[Saint_clark]

6 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Saved us in the second half.

Agreed.

[Greedyfly]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

People putting the goal on him are stretching really, I think for some fans every single goal we ever concede will be his fault.

He has been such an important figure in this run, pivotal in fact - we'd have lost at Preston had he not scored!

It surely didn't get attributed to him, did it? Can't be arsed to look it up

[Saint_clark]

2 minutes ago, Greedyfly said:

It surely didn't get attributed to him, did it? Can't be arsed to look it up

It didn't, it was an own goal. Shame really as it was an epic moment and he'll almost certainly never come closer than that.

Edited January 20 by Saint_clark

[AlexLaw76]

Excellent saves today!!

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

People putting the goal on him are stretching really, I think for some fans every single goal we ever concede will be his fault.

He has been such an important figure in this run, pivotal in fact - we'd have lost at Preston had he not scored!

I am not his greatest fan. I do acknowledge he has improved so far this season though.

Having said that, it's way over egging it to say he has been "pivotal" to our season. I'd wager any mid to average championship keeper would have us in the same position in the table 

[Galway saint]

he made a positive difference in the second half to the outcome of game today and to date he’s not done that enough for me but fair play to him today. we’ll need more of that when we play ipswich, leicester etc away 

 

[pingpong]

Player of the season for me so far. Its hard to compare him to other keepers in the league because his role is so different, but for me he is streets ahead of anyone else.  He's basically an extra outfield player for our passing game, and his completion stats are crazy considering he also hits the most long balls of any of our players.

Hopefully he stays fit because we lose a whole dimension to our play without him, and don't think we would get top two if he got injured. Irreplaceable.

[The Kraken]

6 minutes ago, pingpong said:

Player of the season for me so far. Its hard to compare him to other keepers in the league because his role is so different, but for me he is streets ahead of anyone else.  He's basically an extra outfield player for our passing game, and his completion stats are crazy considering he also hits the most long balls of any of our players.

Hopefully he stays fit because we lose a whole dimension to our play without him, and don't think we would get top two if he got injured. Irreplaceable.

Nowhere near it for me. Saying that he’s been better than any of KWP, THB, Downes or Adarma (with his 25 goal contributions) is mad. Bazunu’s distribution is excellent no doubt and he’s showing signs of improvement, played well today and kept us right in it no doubt. But he’s down that list for me, we’d be noticeably worse off without any of those I listed. Not sure I can say that about Baz. Not yet.

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, pingpong said:

Player of the season for me so far. Its hard to compare him to other keepers in the league because his role is so different, but for me he is streets ahead of anyone else.  He's basically an extra outfield player for our passing game, and his completion stats are crazy considering he also hits the most long balls of any of our players.

Hopefully he stays fit because we lose a whole dimension to our play without him, and don't think we would get top two if he got injured. Irreplaceable.

You what? Player of the season?

He isn't the keeper with the most passes (Leicesters) and while his pass completion is the highest in the league at 85%, there are 10 other keepers in the league with over 80%. His passing is good and keeps us ticking over but it isn't anything out of the ordinary. If he were pinging it directly to people anywhere on the pitch then fair enough, but i'm not going to fawn over a keeper for being able to pass it 10-20 yards accurately. 

[Harry_SFC]

5 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

You what? Player of the season?

He isn't the keeper with the most passes (Leicesters) and while his pass completion is the highest in the league at 85%, there are 10 other keepers in the league with over 80%. His passing is good and keeps us ticking over but it isn't anything out of the ordinary. If he were pinging it directly to people anywhere on the pitch then fair enough, but i'm not going to fawn over a keeper for being able to pass it 10-20 yards accurately. 

His long range passing is very accurate as well to be fair. I would say his all round passing ability is quite out of the ordinary for a keeper. Everything else not quite so much..