Gavin Bazunu

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 26/10/2023 at 07:34, sfc4prem said:

Gavin the friendly ghost

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When they make the film it will be called :

"Bazza, the overly friendly ghost. They made his hands from crisp packets"

[Chez]

  On 26/10/2023 at 23:51, Verbal Kint said:

We have no hope of getting promoted if he is in goal. From the last few seasons, the highest number of goals any of the promoted teams conceded was in the low 40s. We're currently on 24 already. 

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You are spot on about the teams getting promoted recently conceding only about 40 goals, although 2018/19 did see Norwich win the league conceding 57 and Villa get promoted through the play offs having conceded 61.

Top two of Leicester and Ipswich only let in 7 and 13 so far. 

[SaintsBarry74]

Gavin Bazunu £20m goalie.

Who knows where would be with an average keeper in the net.

[Saint_clark]

  On 29/10/2023 at 18:07, SaintsBarry74 said:

Gavin Bazunu £20m goalie.

Who knows where would be with an average keeper in the net.

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That's easy to work out.

With an average championship goalkeeper (average shot save % is 67.3%) facing the same amount of shots Bazunu has, we'd have conceded 19 goals so far this season, so would have conceded 6 goals less. 

[VectisSaint]

Probably we would be in exactly the same place as we are now, 3rd at best, but we would have a positive goal difference. But would an average keeper have salvaged a point with a headed equaliser against PNE?

[Badger]

  On 29/10/2023 at 22:22, VectisSaint said:

Probably we would be in exactly the same place as we are now, 3rd at best, but we would have a positive goal difference. But would an average keeper have salvaged a point with a headed equaliser against PNE?

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Fair point perhaps, by perhaps  with the average keeper, a last minute equaliser might not have been necessary. 

[VectisSaint]

  On 29/10/2023 at 22:44, Badger said:

Fair point perhaps, by perhaps  with the average keeper, a last minute equaliser might not have been necessary. 

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So we might have been 1 point better off, still only puts us level with Leeds and still an inferior goal difference (even with the 6 less goals conceded - their GD is 9). Its endless conjecture and completely meaningless, we are where we are and have a keeper who has conceded 6 in 6 which is probably (pretty sure without checking) better than average. So how does that work out? 

[chiknsmack]

  On 29/10/2023 at 18:34, Saint_clark said:

That's easy to work out.

With an average championship goalkeeper (average shot save % is 67.3%) facing the same amount of shots Bazunu has, we'd have conceded 19 goals so far this season, so would have conceded 6 goals less. 

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If Bazunu had faced the same number of shots as he has, but they were all from 50yds+, we'd have conceded 0 goals so far this season, so would have conceded 25 goals fewer.

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

If we ignore the quality of the shots faced (deflected shots and 1v1s after defensive failures), and ignore Bazunu's ability in possession (which is vitally important for the tactics of the team and far better than the average championship keeper), mouthbreathers can incessantly repeat "Bazunu bad" until the cows come home.

Edited 30 October, 2023 by chiknsmack

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 30/10/2023 at 01:50, chiknsmack said:

If Bazunu had faced the same number of shots as he has, but they were all from 50yds+, we'd have conceded 0 goals so far this season, 

 

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Definitely not betting my house on that one.

[Saint_clark]

  On 30/10/2023 at 01:50, chiknsmack said:

If Bazunu had faced the same number of shots as he has, but they were all from 50yds+, we'd have conceded 0 goals so far this season, so would have conceded 25 goals fewer.

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

If we ignore the quality of the shots faced (deflected shots and 1v1s after defensive failures), and ignore Bazunu's ability in possession (which is vitally important for the tactics of the team and far better than the average championship keeper), mouthbreathers can incessantly repeat "Bazunu bad" until the cows come home.

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Ah the old "Bazunu has only faced worldie shots and unstoppable deflections" routine. I do so enjoy it. 

He's also amongst the lowest in the league for percentage of crosses claimed and just below average for rushing out to collect.

I agree though, he can pass it out to the defenders really well. Well enough to justify having a below average keeper in all other areas? I don't think so. But each to their own. 

He's shown improvement recently so hopefully it continues.

[Lord Duckhunter]

  On 30/10/2023 at 11:31, Saint_clark said:

and just below average for rushing out to collect.

 

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What about rushing out like a headless halfwit to clatter the centre forward, where is he in that? 
 

Had the referee done his job, we’d be discussing another Baz hash up Saturday. 

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 30/10/2023 at 12:57, Lord Duckhunter said:

What about rushing out like a headless halfwit to clatter the centre forward, where is he in that? 
 

Had the referee done his job, we’d be discussing another Baz hash up Saturday. 

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The referee did his job.

[AlexLaw76]

  On 30/10/2023 at 16:21, Whitey Grandad said:

The referee did his job.

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Not very well....which all of the football world, who watched the game/incident, suggest

[Lord Duckhunter]

  On 30/10/2023 at 16:39, AlexLaw76 said:

Not very well....which all of the football world, who watched the game/incident, suggest

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What was Baz doing charging out like that anyway. The only way the bloke scores from that situation is if the keeper drops a howler or gives away a penalty. One thing for sure, in the premier league a mistake like that gets punished 

[BARCELONASAINT]

  On 30/10/2023 at 16:44, Lord Duckhunter said:

What was Baz doing charging out like that anyway. The only way the bloke scores from that situation is if the keeper drops a howler or gives away a penalty. One thing for sure, in the premier league a mistake like that gets punished 

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Totally agree it should have been a pen and Baz got lucky. However it's just not true to say he wouldn't have got away with it in the Prem. Jesus they have VAR and still totally screw up!!!

Three Premier League officials at the centre of a decision not to award a penalty to Wolves at Manchester United have been overlooked for this weekend's matches.

Wolves were denied a late penalty on Monday when United keeper Andre Onana crashed into Sasa Kalajdzic and failed to make contact with the ball.

United won 1-0 at Old Trafford.

Wolves boss Gary O'Neil said elite referees manager Jon Moss told him he "could not believe" the error.

It is also understood referees' chief Howard Webb, who is head of the Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL), contacted Wolves officials after the match to apologise.

[david in sweden]

  On 30/10/2023 at 12:57, Lord Duckhunter said:

What about rushing out like a headless halfwit to clatter the centre forward, where is he in that? 
 

Had the referee done his job, we’d be discussing another Baz hash up Saturday. 

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...without VAR ....that's the sort of thing you can do and get away with in this division...

[The Kraken]

  On 30/10/2023 at 11:31, Saint_clark said:

He's also amongst the lowest in the league for percentage of crosses claimed

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Tbf the standard of crossing against Saints has been world class all season so one cannot blame him for that…..

[notnowcato]

  On 30/10/2023 at 11:31, Saint_clark said:

Ah the old "Bazunu has only faced worldie shots and unstoppable deflections" routine. I do so enjoy it. 

He's also amongst the lowest in the league for percentage of crosses claimed and just below average for rushing out to collect.

I agree though, he can pass it out to the defenders really well. Well enough to justify having a below average keeper in all other areas? I don't think so. But each to their own. 

He's shown improvement recently so hopefully it continues.

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Young keeper shows improvement... who'd a thunk it??!!

[Galway saint]

There was an article in the paper over the weekend about the Rotherham keeper who played a blinder against us and others this season. He’s just been capped by Sweden and is coming into his prime at 25. They picked him up on a free and whilst the Millers are struggling, he has shone. It does away with the notion that you can’t be a good keeper and have a great season playing behind a struggling team.

That’s the sort of keeper we should be looking for; someone who can keep us in games and win us points and and I think we would be more open to that, were it not for the fact we spent £12 million on Bazanu. It’s the sunken cost fallacy and it is incredible we spent that much on a young reserve keeper who being kind is still learning his trade whilst we try and get promoted. 

 

[Saint_clark]

  On 30/10/2023 at 18:35, notnowcato said:

Young keeper shows improvement... who'd a thunk it??!!

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Nobody is surprised by that, even people like me who are his biggest critics. 

Still no need to sign someone who is anywhere from 5-8 years away from being in their prime instead of just signing a first team ready goalkeeper.

[CB Fry]

  On 30/10/2023 at 18:35, notnowcato said:

Young keeper shows improvement... who'd a thunk it??!!

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Whoopee. One of the reasons we got relegated last year was that instead of signing a Premier League ready goalkeeper (like, for example, Nottingham Forest) we signed one who was demonstrably not ready and not at the required standard.

Bazunu improving now, a year and a relegation on, well, big fucking deal.

Who'd have thunk it.

[Tamesaint]

  On 30/10/2023 at 12:57, Lord Duckhunter said:

What about rushing out like a headless halfwit to clatter the centre forward, where is he in that? 
 

Had the referee done his job, we’d be discussing another Baz hash up Saturday. 

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That would have kept you happy.

Edited 31 October, 2023 by Tamesaint

[notnowcato]

  On 31/10/2023 at 02:09, Saint_clark said:

Nobody is surprised by that, even people like me who are his biggest critics. 

Still no need to sign someone who is anywhere from 5-8 years away from being in their prime instead of just signing a first team ready goalkeeper.

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  On 31/10/2023 at 06:04, CB Fry said:

Whoopee. One of the reasons we got relegated last year was that instead of signing a Premier League ready goalkeeper (like, for example, Nottingham Forest) we signed one who was demonstrably not ready and not at the required standard.

Bazunu improving now, a year and a relegation on, well, big fucking deal.

Who'd have thunk it.

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Ah the happy clappers in tandem, very sweet. 
 

If you weren’t so busy looking to jump on anything remotely positive you’d see I’m talking about an individual and not the club’s decision to sign him or play him, even though he’s still the best keeper we have. 

[CB Fry]

  On 31/10/2023 at 07:07, notnowcato said:

 

Ah the happy clappers in tandem, very sweet. 
 

If you weren’t so busy looking to jump on anything remotely positive you’d see I’m talking about an individual and not the club’s decision to sign him or play him, even though he’s still the best keeper we have. 

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Haven't you got something "abhorrent" to bawl your eyes out about, sweetheart?

[notnowcato]

  On 31/10/2023 at 10:15, CB Fry said:

Haven't you got something "abhorrent" to bawl your eyes out about, sweetheart?

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Good grief, looks like ChatBot Fry is glitching.

[AlexLaw76]

  On 31/10/2023 at 10:15, CB Fry said:

Haven't you got something "abhorrent" to bawl your eyes out about, sweetheart?

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  On 31/10/2023 at 10:47, notnowcato said:

Good grief, looks like ChatBot Fry is glitching.

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Edited 31 October, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[Harry_SFC]

I wonder how many more goals we would've conceded this season with McCarthy/Lumley in goal trying to play out from the back? It would be a total shitshow.

I noticed yesterday just how calm/composed Bazunu is when he receives the ball. Despite his dodgy shot stopping, he must be one of the best keepers in the country at short & long range passing. Clearly incredibly important to RM. 

[Lighthouse]

100% save percentage yesterday, truly one of the all time great goalkeeping performances.

[Saint_clark]

  On 05/11/2023 at 09:01, Lighthouse said:

100% save percentage yesterday, truly one of the all time great goalkeeping performances.

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Still the 2nd worst overall in the league. Definitely improving though, hope it continues. Be interesting to see how he does when he has some shots that aren't directly at him, whether his shot stopping has improved as well. 

[Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan]

  On 05/11/2023 at 09:35, Saint_clark said:

Still the 2nd worst overall in the league. Definitely improving though, hope it continues. Be interesting to see how he does when he has some shots that aren't directly at him, whether his shot stopping has improved as well. 

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We must be in a fairly niche position that our back-up keeper from 17 years ago has a better save percentage in the league than our current number 1. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

  On 05/11/2023 at 13:09, Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan said:

We must be in a fairly niche position that our back-up keeper from 17 years ago has a better save percentage in the league than our current number 1. 

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Gives Baz a 17 year timescale to get up to those heights. 🙂

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 05/11/2023 at 09:35, Saint_clark said:

Still the 2nd worst overall in the league. Definitely improving though, hope it continues. Be interesting to see how he does when he has some shots that aren't directly at him, whether his shot stopping has improved as well. 

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We've talked about this before. This is exactly why any supposed statistics are meaningless crap.

[Saint_clark]

  On 05/11/2023 at 17:07, Whitey Grandad said:

We've talked about this before. This is exactly why any supposed statistics are meaningless crap.

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Averaged out over multiple games and especially the course of a season they're not. 

[West end Saints]

He had more successful passes yesterday than any Millwall player! 

His passing and confidence receiving the ball is vital for our style of play. 

(I appreciate saves important too!) 

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 05/11/2023 at 17:08, Saint_clark said:

Averaged out over multiple games and especially the course of a season they're not. 

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Not a big enough sample. Have you done a Chi squared test on this?

[Saint_clark]

  On 05/11/2023 at 22:07, Whitey Grandad said:

Not a big enough sample. Have you done a Chi squared test on this?

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Jesus, do you want to wait until the end of his career and then discuss it?

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 06/11/2023 at 05:44, Saint_clark said:

Jesus, do you want to wait until the end of his career and then discuss it?

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That might give you a more accurate figure of what you think you're looking for but after only 15 games?

What variance would you expect from any figures that you care to concoct?

As has been said before, there are just too many variables. That's why these football so-called stats are used for betting. 

[SaintsBarry74]

  On 06/11/2023 at 07:02, Whitey Grandad said:

That might give you a more accurate figure of what you think you're looking for but after only 15 games?

What variance would you expect from any figures that you care to concoct?

As has been said before, there are just too many variables. That's why these football so-called stats are used for betting. 

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He was the worst keeper in the league last season as far as shot stopping goes, and thus far still the worst keeper in the league having let in 6.1 more goals than expected against inferior opposition. When will the statistical evidence be substantial enough for you to acknowledge his consistent underperformance?

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 07/11/2023 at 21:56, SaintsBarry74 said:

He was the worst keeper in the league last season as far as shot stopping goes, and thus far still the worst keeper in the league having let in 6.1 more goals than expected against inferior opposition. When will the statistical evidence be substantial enough for you to acknowledge his consistent underperformance?

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Because these are not real statistics. They are a load of invented bollocks.

When will you ever recognise this?

[Saint_clark]

  On 07/11/2023 at 22:11, Whitey Grandad said:

Because these are not real statistics. They are a load of invented bollocks.

When will you ever recognise this?

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Which stats do you consider to be "real" out of interest? They're literally a factual representation of what has happened. 

[Lighthouse]

  On 07/11/2023 at 21:56, SaintsBarry74 said:

He was the worst keeper in the league last season as far as shot stopping goes, and thus far still the worst keeper in the league having let in 6.1 more goals than expected against inferior opposition. When will the statistical evidence be substantial enough for you to acknowledge his consistent underperformance?

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Which 6.1 goals were they, exactly?

[Galway saint]

as a distraction from the statistical debate, who thinks Baz would have kept out the shot from sulemana that bialkowski saved low down to his left ? 

i think if baz is in goal for milwall we take the lead there 

 

 

[Saint_clark]

  On 08/11/2023 at 22:54, Galway saint said:

as a distraction from the statistical debate, who thinks Baz would have kept out the shot from sulemana that bialkowski saved low down to his left ? 

i think if baz is in goal for milwall we take the lead there 

 

 

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Nah, he would have saved that. More power on it and maybe not. 

[notnowcato]

  On 08/11/2023 at 22:54, Galway saint said:

as a distraction from the statistical debate, who thinks Baz would have kept out the shot from sulemana that bialkowski saved low down to his left ? 

i think if baz is in goal for milwall we take the lead there 

 

 

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I think Baz saves the Fraser goal. 

[The Cat]

  On 08/11/2023 at 22:54, Galway saint said:

as a distraction from the statistical debate, who thinks Baz would have kept out the shot from sulemana that bialkowski saved low down to his left ? 

i think if baz is in goal for milwall we take the lead there 

 

 

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If he had made the same save he'd have no doubt got a load of shit for pushing the ball back into the middle and being lucky that one of their players wasn't stood there for a tap in.

If he'd done what Martinez did the other day this board would have exploded.

[Lord Duckhunter]

  On 09/11/2023 at 07:24, The Cat said:

 

If he'd done what Martinez did the other day this board would have exploded.

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If Baz had won the World Cup, the Yashin Trophy & the World Cup golden gloves, I think we may have cut him a bit of slack over a rare mistake. 

Similarly had Martinez been rock bottom of the league in terms of saves, let most shots from distance in & was so poor last season that Alex McCarthy was considered a better option, then the Villa supporters may well have “exploded” as well. Not that it would have happened of course, most clubs would have binned him by now. 

Edited 9 November, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[The Cat]

  On 09/11/2023 at 12:48, Lord Duckhunter said:

If Baz had won the World Cup, the Yashin Trophy & the World Cup golden gloves, I think we may have cut him a bit of slack over a rare mistake. 

Similarly had Martinez been rock bottom of the league in terms of saves, let most shots from distance in & was so poor last season that Alex McCarthy was considered a better option, then the Villa supporters may well have “exploded” as well. Not that it would have happened of course, most clubs would have binned him by now. 

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Bazunu is 21, even a once in a generation freak like Donnarumma didn't win those achievements at such a young age for a keeper.

When Martinez was 21 he was playing one game in a season for Oxford. Pretty sure back then no one was touting him to win all the awards you mentioned.

Personally I'm glad we haven't binned Bazunu. I like watching young players grow into a team and improve. Similarly Leeds haven't binned Meslier who has had a very similar start to his career as Bazunu and has been their number 1 for 4 seasons now.

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 10/11/2023 at 08:22, The Cat said:

Similarly Leeds haven't binned Meslier who has had a very similar start to his career as Bazunu and has been their number 1 for 4 seasons now.

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Is the moral of this tale; "play young, inexperienced 'keeper and get relegated"?

[S-Clarke]

  On 10/11/2023 at 08:25, Weston Super Saint said:

Is the moral of this tale; "play young, inexperienced 'keeper and get relegated"?

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There is a very similar, almost identical dynamic happening at Burnley this year. They spent a similar fee on James Trafford from City, only lower league experience. The general tone from their fans is that they want him replaced by their keeper from last year, he's too inexperienced, too rash etc. There are no glaring errors as such, similar to Bazunu, but lots of goals they say he 'should save'.

I guess all goalkeepers need a start, but it does feel as if these City kids are getting thrown into the lions den a bit too quickly before they're fully matured (Gunn is another one). I reckon they'll all have decent careers for themselves, as Gunn is now demonstrating at Norwich (before he was injured). It's just the clubs having to deal with their growing pains.

[CanadaSaint]

  On 10/11/2023 at 10:13, S-Clarke said:

There is a very similar, almost identical dynamic happening at Burnley this year. They spent a similar fee on James Trafford from City, only lower league experience. The general tone from their fans is that they want him replaced by their keeper from last year, he's too inexperienced, too rash etc. There are no glaring errors as such, similar to Bazunu, but lots of goals they say he 'should save'.

I guess all goalkeepers need a start, but it does feel as if these City kids are getting thrown into the lions den a bit too quickly before they're fully matured (Gunn is another one). I reckon they'll all have decent careers for themselves, as Gunn is now demonstrating at Norwich (before he was injured). It's just the clubs having to deal with their growing pains.

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I think what we're seeing is a reflection of the change in the game. For many years up until not that long ago the criteria for judging a keeper were 1) making saves, 2) communication, 3) coming for crosses, and 4) distribution - probably in that order.

Today, with the way the game is played, distribution is a far more important factor. And the lighter, livelier ball (coupled with the blocking and hand-to-hand combat permitted in the box at every corner and free kick) has pretty much made "coming for crosses" a thing of the past; it has also made the "making saves" part harder. We used to wear gloves to help us keep hold of a wet or slick ball, but now they wear them all the time to make their hands bigger.

The very nature of goalkeeping has changed, but we still tend to judge today's keepers on yesterday's criteria. Keepers are getting thrown-in much earlier - probably too soon - because they grew up with the new skill set.

Given that backdrop, I think Bazunu is more an asset than a liability, and he's definitely going to get better. He already has.

Edited 11 November, 2023 by CanadaSaint