Gillingham 3-1 Saints - Match Thread

[Chez]

I always think it's tough on these league cup sides as they are just chucked together with players that haven't played or developed understanding with the others. They are always disjointed. 

[saintant]

25 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

Semmens

That explains it!

[Southner]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It was good. If we go by the names he didn't mention we can assume he believes the twatty players are: 

McCarthy 

Bree 

Lyanco 

Perraud 

Djenepo 

And maybe Onuachu 

No surprise really but if the club still has a cancer in it, then they are the cause. 

They're going to be harder to shift after tonight.

A decent bulk of wage bill on that list.  

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, Kermitzasaint said:

How can this happen? I thought Martin had made us the new Man City and we would pass teams into oblivion?

A league 1 team found him out already. 

Good evening Nathan

(It was a league 2 team btw, not that accuracy matters much on the SaintsWeb forum of course...)

[CanadaSaint]

It’s like an infection. It was plainly evident last year – lots of “go-through-the-motions-itis”. Nobody – least of all Selles – had the balls to confront it. He just kept picking them, so it just kept spreading, game after game, and Selles quickly became part of it.

Martin needs to start hacking it out before it gets him too, and it sounds like he knows it. If it costs some money to rid the club of this shit, so be it. Money well spent.

But he also needs to look in the mirror tonight. You don’t need coaching badges to know that playing Lyanco and Perraud as CBs, with McCarthy behind them, is shit waiting to happen against ANY opposition.
 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Chez said:

I always think it's tough on these league cup sides as they are just chucked together with players that haven't played or developed understanding with the others. They are always disjointed. 

Agree with that. They also didn't help themselves though but you can see why it would be difficult for them. It's the youth players I feel sorry for who will now get no opportunities. 

[saintant]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It was good. If we go by the names he didn't mention we can assume he believes the twatty players are: 

McCarthy 

Bree 

Lyanco 

Perraud 

Djenepo 

And maybe Onuachu 

No surprise really but if the club still has a cancer in it, then they are the cause. 

You missed out Mara who I understand Martin glaringly says of, 'you don't train one way and play another'. Apologies if I've got that wrong as perhaps it wasn't aimed specifically at Mara.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, CanadaSaint said:

It’s like an infection. It was plainly evident last year – lots of “go-through-the-motions-itis”. Nobody – least of all Selles – had the balls to confront it. He just kept picking them, so it just kept spreading, game after game, and Selles quickly became part of it.

Martin needs to start hacking it out before it gets him too, and it sounds like he knows it. If it costs some money to rid the club of this shit, so be it. Money well spent.

But he also needs to look in the mirror tonight. You don’t need coaching badges to know that playing Lyanco and Perraud as CBs, with McCarthy behind them, is shit waiting to happen against ANY opposition.
 

Who should he have played at Cb? Given that Bednarek was returning from injury and he obviously didn't want to risk Stephens. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, saintant said:

You missed out Mara who I understand Martin glaringly says of, 'you don't train one way and play another'. Apologies if I've got that wrong as perhaps it wasn't aimed specifically at Mara.

He didn't say it specifically at Mara but he does mention it as being a good learning opportunity for him so I don't think he was referring to him with his other comments. 

[Brissysaint]

Not too fussed really, I do like a good cup run but this seasons probably not the best time for it. Just for the sake of embarrassment I would’ve rather it was at least a team in the same league as us.

 

i couldn’t watch but glad to hear the kids did well. Can’t remember any of the lot last year lighting things up in their brief appearances.

[CanadaSaint]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Who should he have played at Cb? Given that Bednarek was returning from injury and he obviously didn't want to risk Stephens. 

Maybe utilize squad players in their strongest positions - even if they lack first team experience. The CB dovetail is crucial, especially if McCarthy is behind them. I'm okay with Lyanco if it's forced upon us. Bree has played there before. But I've got more chance of becoming the next pope that Perraud has of being a centre back.

I'm completely bemused by tonight - not because some players didn't show up (we've seen it all too often), but because Martin picked a line up that had trouble written all over it. It's almost like he wanted to make a point to people behind the scenes. It just went more pear-shaped than he expected.

[maysie]

Liked his interview, apologised, took responsibility whilst also pointing out that a lot of these senior players aren’t up to it (or aren’t willing to follow tactical instructions)

[Farmer Saint]

I was sat behind the dugout and Martin spent the whole half shouting at "Sekou", telling him where he should be, telling him to press, drop off etc. Literally like he did not understand the basics of his position. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, CanadaSaint said:

Maybe utilize squad players in their strongest positions - even if they lack first team experience. The CB dovetail is crucial, especially if McCarthy is behind them. I'm okay with Lyanco if it's forced upon us. Bree has played there before. But I've got more chance of becoming the next pope that Perraud has of being a centre back.

I'm completely bemused by tonight - not because some players didn't show up (we've seen it all too often), but because Martin picked a line up that had trouble written all over it. It's almost like he wanted to make a point to people behind the scenes. It just went more pear-shaped than he expected.

So you'd have played Bree there? Who would have taken his place at rb? 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

I was sat behind the dugout and Martin spent the whole half shouting at "Sekou", telling him where he should be, telling him to press, drop off etc. Literally like he did not understand the basics of his position. 

He's shite. I wouldn't waste any more time on him. Ship out him, Adams and Onuachu and get a couple of new attackers. 

[AlexLaw76]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

He's shite. I wouldn't waste any more time on him. Ship out him, Adams and Onuachu and get a couple of new attackers. 

He is crap. Was crap last season and will crap. 
 

baffled why fans think he is, or will come, good

[maysie]

Going from his interview I think he feels he can get something out of Mara (not too sure myself). Likewise Stu and Aribo seemed planned gametime and he sees a place for them. Also Adams he mentioned as good experience so assume he see’s him in his plans (if he stays)

Then you have the three youngsters he refers too. I’d probably but Charles in that category too due to inexperience.

So I think he is specifically calling out: McCarthy, Bree, Perraud , Lyanco, Djenepo, Onuachu

Out of those who are the ones who see themselves as Premier League players still who don’t want to be here? All of them except Bree?

Edited 8 August, 2023 by maysie

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, maysie said:

Going from his interview I think he feels he can get something out of Mara (not too sure myself). Likewise Stu and Aribo seemed planned gametime and he sees a place for them. Also Adams he mentioned as good experience so assume he see’s him in his plans (if he stays)

Then you have the three youngsters he refers too. I’d probably but Charles in that category too due to inexperience.

So I think he is specifically calling out: McCarthy, Bree, Perraud , Lyanco, Djenepo, Onuachu

Out of those who are the ones who see themselves as Premier League players still who don’t want to be here? All of them except Bree?

Lyanco never strikes me as someone who doesn't try, he's just rubbish. For me I'd go with Perraud and Djenepo. I can't honestly think that McCarthy considers himself a Premier league player given he's been stealing a living. 

[Kermitzasaint]

31 minutes ago, trousers said:

Good evening Nathan

(It was a league 2 team btw, not that accuracy matters much on the SaintsWeb forum of course...)

Seeing as you're convinced I'm Jones, how do you explain my comments about Ralph years before I was signed by Ankerson? 

Just coincidence I guess.

Ah yes , league 2. Damned small buttons on my phone whist being half asleep 

[CanadaSaint]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So you'd have played Bree there? Who would have taken his place at rb? 

Hypo, we can keep going round in circles on this. It was our second game of the season - it's not like we're in the midst of fixture congestion, and players desperately need resting. Tonight wasn't just about players not performing - it was also about Martin dropping a big clanger with his line up. Lyanco partnered with Perraud in CD was mental.

Hopefully everyone's got the message - under-committed players who are nowhere near as good as they think they are, a new manager who might well have underestimated the opposition (and now has ample proof of what we knew about some players last year), and transfer decision-makers who need to stop fart-arsing around and start solidifying a promotable squad.

[maysie]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Lyanco never strikes me as someone who doesn't try, he's just rubbish. For me I'd go with Perraud and Djenepo. I can't honestly think that McCarthy considers himself a Premier league player given he's been stealing a living. 

Lyanco is definitely an off the cuff player (translation: idiot), so can imagine he was guilty of not following the gameplay/system.

McCarthy agreed, but you keep getting contracts you might believe something

[bpsaint]

Loving the honesty from Russell regarding some of the players tonight, kind of why I’m glad this result happened, so he has seen for himself just how shite some of the squad players are and what we’ve had to endure for the past couple of years. Hopefully it means it’s the last time we see some of the useless cunts.

[Appy]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Lyanco never strikes me as someone who doesn't try, he's just rubbish. For me I'd go with Perraud and Djenepo. I can't honestly think that McCarthy considers himself a Premier league player given he's been stealing a living. 

Lyanco is the worst of the lot for me 

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, CanadaSaint said:

Hypo, we can keep going round in circles on this. It was our second game of the season - it's not like we're in the midst of fixture congestion, and players desperately need resting. Tonight wasn't just about players not performing - it was also about Martin dropping a big clanger with his line up. Lyanco partnered with Perraud in CD was mental.

Hopefully everyone's got the message - under-committed players who are nowhere near as good as they think they are, a new manager who might well have underestimated the opposition (and now has ample proof of what we knew about some players last year), and transfer decision-makers who need to stop fart-arsing around and start solidifying a promotable squad.

It's not going round in circles. You can't criticise the manager for his awful defence and then refuse to say which players you would have played at the back. Given our lack of defensive options and given that he wanted to play Charles in his proper position, there really weren't a lot of players at all who could have played at centre back or right back for that matter given that he didn't want to play the vast majority of the first team. There were no obvious players that were left out in the defence that didn't play on Saturday. If there had been and he had ignored them then I would say fair enough. Martins job is to win promotion and if I his judgement it would be more beneficial to that by resting Bednarek who has recently returned from injury and a key player like Stephens out of a cup game then I back him with that decision. If you can't put together a coherent defence without either of those two the it just highlights the difficulty that Martin has. 

Edited 8 August, 2023 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

Loving the honesty from Russell regarding some of the players tonight, kind of why I’m glad this result happened, so he has seen for himself just how shite some of the squad players are and what we’ve had to endure for the past couple of years. Hopefully it means it’s the last time we see some of the useless cunts.

Rather it happens now than when the window has shut so we can't do anything about it. Maybe it will encourage the club to take a loss on some of these players and just ship them out on loan by any means necessary. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Appy said:

Lyanco is the worst of the lot for me 

Yes he's absolutely terrible but he doesn't seem like the type who thinks he's better than he is. Seems to me like he's aware of his limitations and acts the way he does anyway. Like someone else said he's an idiot. 

[Southner]

Ignore. Crab Lungs already posted. 

Edited 8 August, 2023 by Southner

[Chez]

32 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So you'd have played Bree there? Who would have taken his place at rb? 

Got two u21s that could have been played. Payne played last season and if Any isn't good enough to play against a league 2 side, why have we signed him?

[CanadaSaint]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

It's not going round in circles. You can't criticise the manager for his awful defence and then refuse to say which players you would have played at the back. Given our lack of defensive options and given that he wanted to play Charles in his proper position, there really weren't a lot of players at all who could have played at centre back or right back for that matter given that he didn't want to play the vast majority of the first team. There were no obvious players that were left out in the defence that didn't play on Saturday. If there had been and he had ignored them then I would say fair enough. 

That's all well and good if you accept the premise that nobody who played on Friday, and will likely play on Saturday, could have played tonight. These are highly trained professionals, and there were numerous alternatives to the dreadful idea of pairing Lyanco and Perraud in CD. Tonight's horror show happened because "he didn't want" to utilize one of them. So, yes, I can criticize the manager - I don't have to draw up the team sheet, he does. I really like him but he dropped a big bollock tonight. At least he's starting to find out who he can't count on.

[Chez]

15 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's not going round in circles. You can't criticise the manager for his awful defence and then refuse to say which players you would have played at the back. Given our lack of defensive options and given that he wanted to play Charles in his proper position, there really weren't a lot of players at all who could have played at centre back or right back for that matter given that he didn't want to play the vast majority of the first team. There were no obvious players that were left out in the defence that didn't play on Saturday. If there had been and he had ignored them then I would say fair enough. Martins job is to win promotion and if I his judgement it would be more beneficial to that by resting Bednarek who has recently returned from injury and a key player like Stephens out of a cup game then I back him with that decision. If you can't put together a coherent defence without either of those two the it just highlights the difficulty that Martin has. 

Could Simeu not have played at CB?

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

Got two u21s that could have been played. Payne played last season and if Any isn't good enough to play against a league 2 side, why have we signed him?

How is that a stronger team than the one we played? It's really scraping the barrel to go as low as the youth team. 

[Pamplemousse]

That was abject. Fans in the away end were literally laughing, it was that bad.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, CanadaSaint said:

That's all well and good if you accept the premise that nobody who played on Friday, and will likely play on Saturday, could have played tonight. These are highly trained professionals, and there were numerous alternatives to the dreadful idea of pairing Lyanco and Perraud in CD. Tonight's horror show happened because "he didn't want" to utilize one of them. So, yes, I can criticize the manager - I don't have to draw up the team sheet, he does. I really like him but he dropped a big bollock tonight. At least he's starting to find out who he can't count on.

Numerous alternatives but you can't or won't name any. The job of the manager is to get us promoted. If he felt that it was more beneficial to avoid playing a recently injured bednarek or a key player like Stephens in the cup the I trust the manager. If that is the case then there weren't any clear alternatives (even though someone has suggested a youth team player above) despite your claim that there were numerous options that you refuse to elaborate on. 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Chez said:

Could Simeu not have played at CB?

I'll be honest I really don't know anything about him. Is he a cb? Given that Perraud is a senior player, I can't imagine that Martin believed he would be a worse option than someone like Simeu given I can't remember him playing for us before. It's not a shocking error of judgement on Martins part for making that call is my point. 

Edited 8 August, 2023 by hypochondriac

[Chez]

19 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Rather it happens now than when the window has shut so we can't do anything about it. Maybe it will encourage the club to take a loss on some of these players and just ship them out on loan by any means necessary. 

I can't imagine we are holding out for much when it comes to these players. Finding actual suitors willing to pay them what we are, even with 40% cuts, is probably not easy.

[Chez]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How is that a stronger team than the one we played? It's really scraping the barrel to go as low as the youth team. 

They are 19 or 20 year olds, not kids. Not seen Abu, Payne or Simeu play, but League 2 ought not be beyond them.

[Chez]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'll be honest I really don't know anything about him. Is he a cb? 

Yes. Has played on loan in league 2 and league 1 over last two seasons. Maybe he was injured, but if not he might have been a better option.

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Chez said:

Yes. Has played on loan in league 2 and league 1 over last two seasons. Maybe he was injured, but if not he might have been a better option.

Maybe but it's hardly an absolutely shocking decision and lapse of managerial judgement to go with Perraud like Canada Saint is claiming given our lack of options for centre back and the obvious desire of Martin not to utilise our defensive options that we need for Saturday. 

[CanadaSaint]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Numerous alternatives but you can't or won't name any. The job of the manager is to get us promoted. If he felt that it was more beneficial to avoid playing a recently injured bednarek or a key player like Stephens in the cup the I trust the manager. If that is the case then there weren't any clear alternatives (even though someone has suggested a youth team player above) despite your claim that there were numerous options that you refuse to elaborate on. 

You're twisting yourself into a pretzel wanting me to pick a team when all I said - and what I'll say again - is that he picked a bad side with a horrific combo in central defence, and that he had other options. I have little doubt that, with hindsight, he wishes he'd chosen one of them. Maybe try playing the post and not the person next time.

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, CanadaSaint said:

You're twisting yourself into a pretzel wanting me to pick a team when all I said - and what I'll say again - is that he picked a bad side with a horrific combo in central defence, and that he had other options. I have little doubt that, with hindsight, he wishes he'd chosen one of them. Maybe try playing the post and not the person next time.

Your post is nonsensical. I have responded entirely to your posts and haven't mentioned you so why you think I'm playing the poster and not the post I have no idea. There's been no twisting involved, I've simply said that there's a clear, obvious and logical reasons why both Stephens and Bednarek were not selected for this game and that there were very few other alternatives for defence. If we subsequently win on Saturday then frankly 99% of the fan base and probably Martin himself will care very little about this fairly meaningless game. You don't know if Stephens or Bednarek were feeling some effects after Saturday for example. It's absolutely not some catastrophic managerial error like you claim, it's a judgement call that he did not want to risk his two starting centre backs for Saturday for what I can imagine are a number of reasons. 

It's getting silly now as you clearly won't answer who you would have played instead as you know that there aren't viable alternatives for those two players so you disagree with the managers call that those two should not be involved and should be saved for Saturday. I'd prefer to keep the managing to the manager personally but that's just me. Let's leave it there. 

Edited 8 August, 2023 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

Let's just imagine for a minute that Martin had played Stephens from the start instead of Perraud, we win the game but he gets injured and we are then forced to play Lyanco and Bednarek against Norwich. Would that have been a better outcome regardless of what happens on Saturday? 

[saint in Den Haag]

Watching the team sheet get announced online and then the match text on the bbc, I was surprisingly not too annoyed at either. My brain over my heart was happy for the massive cracks to be shown that the Sheffield Wednesday performance could not paper over… and going by RM’s post match comments the result is what we want it to be (hopefully).

this was not a competition I was fussed about, so happy for the ‘B’ team to prove their worth (or not as it shows) If this was the FA cup after the engine had properly warmed up then yes I would be properly pissed but this early in the season with a squad that is not what Russell wants, then I am ok with the result as hopefully it will accelerate some decisions. 

my take on what I think this means with the squad 

GK - can we dream that McCarthy is going?. The lumley signing felt like a direct challenge to McCarthy. The question is how much of a financial hit are we willing to take on him. The Palace rumours sound promising- fortunately Hodgson was not the manager who signed him originally then let him leave after 1 year.

CB’s - think this will be the first position we recruit. Lyanco is as good as gone and we may end up accepting some of the earlier lower proposals from the Brazilian  clubs. If Kotchap goes then this could be 2 incoming.

FB’s - feels like there will be movement. My guess is that RM wants KWP as 1st choice and based on tonight Bree is not tactically up to it (currently). So there will prob be a right back signing - whether it’s bree or a KWP replacement. LB - Perraud likely going and hope manning, larios and Meghoma will cope as back up.

DM - pivot. Smallbone is owning this role with Charles as back up (assume Lavia is going).

CM’s - also going to assume JWP will go. So leaves Alcarez, S Armstrong, Aribo. - think we will see 1 come in here. Grimes is the obvious and may mean smallbone plays more forward.

Attacking WM - RM obviously wants Tella, Edioze, SAA, and Kameldeen - if they all stay then probably no one in. Moussa and Mara on the list of departing - although sounds like RM sees something in Mara. 

ST - feels like Armstrong is the favourite and Che might have been on RM’s sh*t list after tonight with regards to playing with their heads not in it. So likely Che goes with Prem interest and 1 person in. also assume big Paul is gone with a financial hit to allow us to bring someone in ( squad size wise) 

 

 

[gio1saints]

Just back and not seen any interviews but my ten pence worth on that abject saints performance. 

So many bad things. I’d rather just concentrate on the good- which is that firstly Amo is gonna be a star. He’s a delight and if nurtured looks an International quality ability player of the future.
Second, that 
Alvarez is a skilful player with fire in his belly and a goalscorer. He gets a pass also on criticism. 

But most the others stank the place out. 
 

Lastly, and I shouldn’t say this but fuc k it I will. Some of our supporters are absolutely vile. Throwing wan ker signs at Tall Paul and some of the disgusting comment to him and other players in earshot second half - whilst still playing the match - and we are attacking! Moussa got a load too - it was utterly shameful.
 

You pay your ticket and it means you can shout horrible abuse at anyone for 97 minutes I know I know the arguments. But do they think they are supporting the team by such abuse- during the match, whilst we are on the attack?
It’s a free country people can complain. I get it. But 
It’s one thing to lose and lose badly, ( then we boo -m) but when some of the support plays worse than the players did well that’s an embarrassment. 
 

Anyhow, to those who went and supported, fair enough, to those who went on the pretence of being a supporter but in actual fact to give vent to their own personal dissatisfactions with life and the state of the universe made manifest in the form of certain footballers - well you disappointed more than the players. 
Saints fans are better than that. 

 

[Fitzhugh Fella]

6 hours ago, Brissysaint said:

Not too fussed really, I do like a good cup run but this seasons probably not the best time for it. Just for the sake of embarrassment I would’ve rather it was at least a team in the same league as us.

 

i couldn’t watch but glad to hear the kids did well. Can’t remember any of the lot last year lighting things up in their brief appearances.

Not too fussed getting convincingly by a League Two team? Glad you are not our manager. And you obviously weren’t at Cambridge last year when Dom Ballard scored on his debut. 

[John B]

I do not understand that many on here blamed our relegation on three different managers when it was clear that a significant number of the players were pretty substandard.

 

Now a fourth has found that many are not that good against a Div 2 team.

 

Our recruitment for the last few years has been awful but these players are still with the club we need of course to get rid of them but I doubt that will be easy.

 

Building a promotion side is not easy so it may take some time to happen especially if we lose KWP and JWP but if they do go we should be able to get decent replacements

 

We need to have a decent squad if we are to stay in the PL after promotion it is going to be an interesting time being a Saints supporter

 

By the way did anybody play well last night who was in the starting eleven

[Saint Billy]

9 hours ago, Golac's Cunning Stunts said:

Yeah really. The line up has 7 players who have premiership experience vs a League 2 / 4th division side. So yeah, I expect better than  "no wonder we lost"

Agreed, they are only premiership players in name only but are actually underperforming none premiership standard players, some of which were very poor purchases and shouldn't be wearing the shirt.

[CB Fry]

7 hours ago, Kermitzasaint said:

How can this happen? I thought Martin had made us the new Man City and we would pass teams into oblivion?

A league 1 team found him out already. 

No, not really. All I remember is we won on Friday, people enjoyed that moment but you were desperate to be an absolute twat about it.

Fascinating the fury you demonstrate at a victory for us and the relish you show at a defeat.

Almost like you don't want us to win....

[Kermitzasaint]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

No, not really. All I remember is we won on Friday, people enjoyed that moment but you were desperate to be an absolute twat about it.

Fascinating the fury you demonstrate at a victory for us and the relish you show at a defeat.

Almost like you don't want us to win....

Quite the opposite but you guys always need a target to vent at. I want us to do well. 

I find this defeat amusing more than anything. It's a pointless Cup but after everyone went silly over passing stat's from Fridays game this brings a little common sense back. 

You obviously have little idea what fury looks like and anyone who gets that way over football is a little sad.

[CB Fry]

4 minutes ago, Kermitzasaint said:

Quite the opposite but you guys always need a target to vent at. I want us to do well. 

I find this defeat amusing more than anything. It's a pointless Cup but after everyone went silly over passing stat's from Fridays game this brings a little common sense back. 

You obviously have little idea what fury looks like and anyone who gets that way over football is a little sad.

How did "every one go silly" about passing stats. Most on here were amused by it. Everyone enjoyed the win for what it was. Everyone except you, who was furious.

Tell you what, absolutely no one said "we are the new Manchester City". That's just you making shit up.

The only person animated, annoyed or "silly" about it was you sweetheart. Dry your eyes x x x

Edited 9 August, 2023 by CB Fry

[AlexLaw76]

6 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Let's just imagine for a minute that Martin had played Stephens from the start instead of Perraud, we win the game but he gets injured and we are then forced to play Lyanco and Bednarek against Norwich. Would that have been a better outcome regardless of what happens on Saturday? 

Poch and others who threw the cups, probably for similar reasons, were not afforded this grace.