Israel

[badgerx16]

20 minutes ago, Colinjb said:

The part I am struggling to understand here, is just what were Hamas trying to achieve with their incursion last week? It cannot just have been death for death's sake.

Even if it was a frustrated reaction to conditions imposed on them the reaction from Israel cannot have been a surprise.

Look beyond the borders of Palestine and Israel and find the puppeteers pulling the strings and serving their own agendas ; Russia, and Iran.  Putin wants to distract the West from Ukraine, the Ayatollahs have sworn to eradicate Israel, and Hamas are far too happy to be their proxy.

[egg]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

Ok but from what I hear they have almost complete support from the population who are clearly traumatised and living in fear of what their legion of enemies will do to them unchecked.  Many seemed to be absolutely opposed to Netanyahu and his populist govt prior to last Saturday but now galvanised the support. We are base creatures when it comes to survival and want revenge, however futile it is.

I don't doubt that, and that ia why I believe there's a genuine push to force the Gaza population over the permanently.

Netanyahu can't genuinely believe that he'll eradicate the Hamas threat from Gaza with military action. However, he'll be pretty certain that it is achievable if there's no Palestinians in Gaza and/or Gaza is destroyed to such an extent that no Palestinians can live there. 

Edited 15 October, 2023 by egg

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Hard to tell with some. Do you think Corbyn was anti-Semitic or just anti Netanyahu?

Corbyn is, was, and always will be an unelectable prat. I suspect his self perception as a Humanist meant he had to stand up for the great swathes of oppressed people around the globe - without ever considering there might be a bigger picture that politicians need to take account of.

[Sheaf Saint]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Corbyn is, was, and always will be an unelectable prat. I suspect his self perception as a Humanist meant he had to stand up for the great swathes of oppressed people around the globe - without ever considering there might be a bigger picture that politicians need to take account of.

Yeah I'd agree with all of this. I don't believe for a second that he himself is antisemitic; the support he has shown to Jewish communities over many decades disproves that IMO. But he has shown extreme naivety in a) cosying up too much to Hamas and b) failing to recognise the antisemitism that was flourishing in his party under the guise of support for Palestine.

[badgerx16]

The Israeli air force has bombed Khan Yunis, the supposedly 'safe' southern end of the evacuation route through the Gaza Strip.

Edited 15 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[sadoldgit]

44 minutes ago, whelk said:

Hamas don’t give a fuck about plight of Palestinians. They knew what they were doing and in many ways achieving aims - see this thread for the loathing of Israel.

I don’t think there is any loathing of Israel in here. I don’t see any Palestinian fan boys either. Both comments are crass and helpful.

I see plenty of people who appreciate that the situation is and has always been far from black and white. The provocation and retaliation has been going on and both sides are responsible for their actions and for the continuance of the murder of innocents and the destruction of property.

Calling people Palestinian fan boys or anti-Semites when they recognise the basic fact that Israel is not the blameless victim here is the 6th form common room argument level post.

To end this conflict BOTH sides have to recognise that the other has the right to a peaceful existence within agreed and well defined boundaries. The land grabs and the butchering has to end. Both sides bear responsibility here.

Israel has all of the power and can destroy the Palestinian people’s with days of it wanted to. It is incumbent upon them to use their power responsively and proportionately. I think that most people can see that they are abusing their power at the moment, which is why sympathy levels are probably higher in many for the Palestinians. It has been pointed out many times that it is quite possible to be horrified and disgusted by the Hamas attacks on innocent civilians while also being horrified and disgusted at the murder of innocent Palestinians in Gaza.

I can’t speak for everybody else but I would expect more people on this thread want an end to all of this and would like a 2 nation state with security guaranteed by the UN for both Israelis and Palestinians.

Labelling people fanboys, anti-Semites and even c**ts falls into the same old one side good, the other side bad attitude that will only serve to add fuel to the already raging fire.

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

I don’t think I am as black and white as you may think but does feel like it is a sixth form common room. My daughter recently said free Palestine but is pretty clueless about the situation.

What did you shout at her? Palestinian fan boy, antisemite, thick cunt or do you just save that language for people you don't know on a message board?

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

To end this conflict BOTH sides have to recognise that the other has the right to a peaceful existence within agreed and well defined boundaries. The land grabs and the butchering has to end. Both sides bear responsibility here.

I fear the extremist religions in play won't be conducive to this happening.

[whelk]

52 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

What did you shout at her? Palestinian fan boy, antisemite, thick cunt or do you just save that language for people you don't know on a message board?

I forgive her for her age and thankfully she is extremely bright and won’t turn out to be like one of the tiresome soppy pricks on this board reciting phone-ins and newspaper comments to demonstrate their wisdom. Sorry couldn’t help myself sweet pea

[whelk]

Btw where was all the outrage at the atrocities in Syria by Assad and Putin? What with all this love for humanity surely some of you righteous souls were tormented by such lack of compassion?

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Btw where was all the outrage at the atrocities in Syria by Assad and Putin? What with all this love for humanity surely some of you righteous souls were tormented by such lack of compassion?

Not to mention the current situation in Afghanistan where the progress made for women during the 'occupation' has been sent back to the dark ages.

[Sheaf Saint]

13 minutes ago, whelk said:

Btw where was all the outrage at the atrocities in Syria by Assad and Putin? What with all this love for humanity surely some of you righteous souls were tormented by such lack of compassion?

There was plenty of discussion on here about Syria while it was making headline news. And even if there wasnt, this post is pure whataboutery. 

I thought you were better than this Whelk.

[Fan The Flames]

30 minutes ago, whelk said:

I forgive her for her age and thankfully she is extremely bright and won’t turn out to be like one of the tiresome soppy pricks on this board reciting phone-ins and newspaper comments to demonstrate their wisdom. Sorry couldn’t help myself sweet pea

You better hope she takes after her other parent then.

I really can't work out why you are on some delldays mission to prove people to be righteous hypocrites. Just arguing your point should be enough.

[whelk]

34 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

You better hope she takes after her other parent then.

I really can't work out why you are on some delldays mission to prove people to be righteous hypocrites. Just arguing your point should be enough.

You want to meet my husband - he has a fiery temperament and doesn’t suffer fools. 
 

My point is that some people get more irate with Israel than when any other nation does similar. 
And there is an antisemitic parallel. As David Baddiel puts it people think they are punching upwards (against the establishment) when criticising Jews so don’t equate it with racism ( hopefully someone has written a research paper on are Jews a race) I think there is similar with Israel, being backed by US so the left feel like open season when criticising Israel.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not to mention the current situation in Afghanistan where the progress made for women during the 'occupation' has been sent back to the dark ages.

If you want to have a chat about Afghanistan (or Syria) crack on and start a thread mate. 

[Lighthouse]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

If you want to have a chat about Afghanistan (or Syria) crack on and start a thread mate. 

I don’t mind the hatred of women, gays and basically anyone who’s educated and not a fanatical Muslim, but the c*nts are beating us at cricket.

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Btw where was all the outrage at the atrocities in Syria by Assad and Putin? What with all this love for humanity surely some of you righteous souls were tormented by such lack of compassion?

The difference is our government doesn’t openly support Assad or Putin. If we align ourselves with Israel’s war crimes it makes events like 7/7 way more likely to happen in the future. 

Edited 15 October, 2023 by aintforever

[Weston Super Saint]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

The difference is our government doesn’t openly support Assad or Putin. If we align ourselves with Israel’s war crimes it makes events like 7/7 way more likely to happen in the future. 

Any war crimes committed by Ukraine - that our government openly supports?

War is dirty business, but usually very profitable.

[badgerx16]

9 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Any war crimes committed by Ukraine - that our government openly supports?

War is dirty business, but usually very profitable.

The problem with that analogy is that Ukraine are the side being attacked by a bigger and stronger neighbour, and threatened with obliteration whilst their territory is occupied and flattened - more akin to the Palestinians. As you say war is a dirty business, and collateral damage is inevitable, but Ukraine are not trying to commit the genocidal destruction of Russia, nor actively seeking to cause civilian casualties.

Edited 15 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[Fan The Flames]

47 minutes ago, whelk said:

You want to meet my husband - he has a fiery temperament and doesn’t suffer fools. 
 

My point is that some people get more irate with Israel than when any other nation does similar. 
And there is an antisemitic parallel. As David Baddiel puts it people think they are punching upwards (against the establishment) when criticising Jews so don’t equate it with racism ( hopefully someone has written a research paper on are Jews a race) I think there is similar with Israel, being backed by US so the left feel like open season when criticising Israel.

So in amongst all this evil behaviour in Isreal and Gaza, your concern is the about the left of politics maybe being more hard on one out of line regime then another out of line regime and maybe they are doing it because they are racists. Is that the most important thing to you in all this. There will be antisemites using this opportunity to be hateful, doesn't mean the others criticising Isreal are antisemitic. That's in your head 

Why does the Israeli government get this free pass. It's not racist to criticise the Rwandan government, or to hate Putins government or North Koreas or China, was it racist to hate the Apartheid South African government.

But we are just soppy pricks, righteous hypocrites and racists cunts for wanting a solution to the long standing situation in Isreal.

And the line about your husband was a bit pathetic as well.

Edited 15 October, 2023 by Fan The Flames

[badgerx16]

48 minutes ago, whelk said:

  I think there is similar with Israel, being backed by US so the left feel like open season when criticising Israel.

Thousands of dead Palestinian civilians, a large number of whom were women and children, ( hugely disproportionate to the number of dead Israelis),; illegal occupation of land in direct contradiction of international agreements; withholding basic humanitarian services and human rights. There are plenty of valid reasons to criticise Israel - you don't need to be anti-Semitic.

[AlexLaw76]

The US with support of the UK has effectively formed a blockade in the eastern Med. so any assistance by anyone to Gaza from the sea is a no-go, unless the US allow it

[badgerx16]

27 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The US with support of the UK has effectively formed a blockade in the eastern Med. so any assistance by anyone to Gaza from the sea is a no-go, unless the US allow it

 Joe Biden's Twitter account posted this about speaking with the Palestinian Authority's President; "I assured him that we're working with partners in the region to ensure humanitarian supplies reach civilians in Gaza and to prevent the conflict from widening,"

[sadoldgit]

Steve Bell has been sacked from The Guardian. For those who don’t know his work he is an excellent cartoonist and has been with the paper for 42 years.

He provided a cartoon of Netanyahu wearing boxing gloves holding a scalpel and with a map of Gaza on his torso which he is poised to cut.

The words above the cartoon say Residents of Gaza,  get out of now.

It is a reference to a similar cartoon that was used back in the 60’s about the Vietnam war using Lyndon Johnson with a map of Vietnam on his torso

When asked why the cartoon had been withdrawn the explanation was something along the lines of, Jewish bloke, pound of flesh, antisemitic trope.

According to Bell it has nothing to do with Shylock and the reference wouldn’t work in this context anyway. The whole point of the boxing gloves and the scalpel (so much for surgical strikes) has been completely ignored. It has absolutely nothing to do with a pound of flesh.

I expect more from this newspaper but The Guardian in this instance is just as gutless as the rest right wing suck up press.

Edited 15 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Corrected text

[whelk]

So posts being removed by mods again.  Beyond pathetic 

[AlexLaw76]

5 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

 Joe Biden's Twitter account posted this about speaking with the Palestinian Authority's President; "I assured him that we're working with partners in the region to ensure humanitarian supplies reach civilians in Gaza and to prevent the conflict from widening,"

So, the US controlling what goes in…. 
 

[Saint in Paradise]

 

[badgerx16]

7 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

So, the US controlling what goes in…. 
 

You do realise that sometimrs I will agree with something you post.

[Lord Duckhunter]

14 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Steve Bell has been sacked from The Guardian. For those who don’t know his work he is an excellent cartoonist and has been with the paper for 42 years.

He’s an anti semite & a racist who has had cartoons pulled by the Guardian before  because of it. You’ve got to hate the Jews pretty badly to be sacked from The Guardian, but it’s no surprise you’re supporting him.
 

 

[Turkish]

15 hours ago, whelk said:

So posts being removed by mods again.  Beyond pathetic 

been at it all over the forum. Sue Whistle made a completely unprovoked attack on a few posters on the Hull match thread, including me, using her range of abusive swear words and i hadn't even posted on the thread apart from to correct someone of the score the last time we played at Hull. When i pulled her up on it both posts disappeared even though hers had been on there for a few days. 

[whelk]

37 minutes ago, Turkish said:

been at it all over the forum. Sue Whistle made a completely unprovoked attack on a few posters on the Hull match thread, including me, using her range of abusive swear words and i hadn't even posted on the thread apart from to correct someone of the score the last time we played at Hull. When i pulled her up on it both posts disappeared even though hers had been on there for a few days. 

Our own counter to Elon Musks free to express anything.  Far too sensitive and all I said was that Fan the Flames need to toughen up.

He keeps banging on quoting ‘racist cunts’ like someone obsessed and getting a tad unhinged 

[whelk]

8 hours ago, Saint in Paradise said:

 

Always watch Bill Maher’ Real Time and good that now back on. Get good range of opinions although Democrat leaning often calls lunacy of the left.

How someone watches Question Time when you have more insightful stuff like this albeit hidden away when in UK is beyond me.

Would hope some on here might watch that clip but won’t hold out hope

 

[whelk]

[rallyboy]

While Andrew Neil has lost all credibility as a serious figure in the past decade I would have thought that even he was still capable of grasping the difference between Palestine and Hamas.

But in reality he's just reinvented himself as a controversial pundit who can spoonfeed shit to thick people, all for his own personal gain...

[badgerx16]

34 minutes ago, whelk said:

Pro Hamas demonstrations are banned. Pro Palestinian ones are permitted.

How many of the babies Israel have killed had vowed to erase Israel from the Earth ?

Edited 16 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[whelk]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Pro Hamas demonstrations are banned. Pro Palestinian ones are permitted.

You might want to hear some first hand account of some Jews in London on Saturday 

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

While Andrew Neil has lost all credibility as a serious figure in the past decade I would have thought that even he was still capable of grasping the difference between Palestine and Hamas.

But in reality he's just reinvented himself as a controversial pundit who can spoonfeed shit to thick people, all for his own personal gain...

Ahh funny he has commissioned show on CH4 with all the lost credibility. FWIW I don’t really like him. 
 

No sympathy for Hamas whatsoever amongst the intellectuals desperate to side with Muslims over Jews. They just do a number count on dead babies to make sure they are on the right side. 

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

You might want to hear some first hand account of some Jews in London on Saturday 

In which case they should contact the Police.

[whelk]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Pro Hamas demonstrations are banned. Pro Palestinian ones are permitted.

How many of the babies Israel have killed had vowed to erase Israel from the Earth ?

Genuine question, after last Saturday’s attack do you think Israel should’ve done nothing?  I know Rallyboy would just say no comment to any line of questioning for fear of upsetting Arabs. All in name of smug pacifism 

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

In which case they should contact the Police.

Great answer

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

 

,...... desperate to side with Muslims over Jews.

Or refugees over a military occupation ?

[badgerx16]

15 minutes ago, whelk said:

Genuine question, after last Saturday’s attack do you think Israel should’ve done nothing?  I know Rallyboy would just say no comment to any line of questioning for fear of upsetting Arabs. All in name of smug pacifism 

They are capable of far more "surgical" action than effectively bulldozing half of the Gaza Strip. Also, as previously mentioned, perhaps try for the leadership of Hamas,  comfortably tucked away in the UAE. Maybe they shouldn't be so oppressive in the territories they illegally occupy, thereby reducing the tension and temptation to retaliate.

Do you think what they are currently doing is going to make the problem go away ?

At some point somebody has to put on their Big Boy Pants and try to find a way to implement an effective 2 state solution that breaks the cycle, because all they are currently doing is breeding the next generation of terrorists.

Edited 16 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Or refugees over a military occupation ?

Apparently this comment is humourous.

[Sheaf Saint]

6 minutes ago, whelk said:

No sympathy for Hamas whatsoever amongst the intellectuals desperate to side with Muslims over Jews. They just do a number count on dead babies to make sure they are on the right side. 

Only yesterday you said you don't think you are really as black and white with this as I was making out. I have to tell you that you're not really doing a very good job of convincing me of that.

You appear to be firmly entrenching yourself on the side of Israel, while making false accusations against those pointing out the nuances of the situation of 'siding' with Hamas.

8 minutes ago, whelk said:

Genuine question, after last Saturday’s attack do you think Israel should’ve done nothing?  I know Rallyboy would just say no comment to any line of questioning for fear of upsetting Arabs. All in name of smug pacifism 

Nobody is saying they should have done nothing. If you think that either 'nothing' or 'flattening Gaza' were the only two options available to them then that just further demonstrates your polarised viewpoint on things.

[badgerx16]

20 minutes ago, whelk said:

Great answer

I know.

[whelk]

20 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Nobody is saying they should have done nothing. If you think that either 'nothing' or 'flattening Gaza' were the only two options available to them then that just further demonstrates your polarised viewpoint on things.

Don’t think at any point I have supported flattening Gaza. Maybe that has been your assumption when I am challenging the clear anti-Israeli views?

[whelk]

28 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you think what they are currently doing is going to make the problem go away ?

Absolutely not. 

[whelk]

28 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Maybe they shouldn't be so oppressive in the territories they illegally occupy, thereby reducing the tension and temptation to retaliate.

And there we go, justification that I am sure you will deny.

[aintforever]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

And there we go, justification that I am sure you will deny.

It's not justification, it's just a fact.

You can't just ignore the fact that the Palestinians have been living under a blockade by people who stole their land, for over 15 years.

[Weston Super Saint]

50 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

They are capable of far more "surgical" action than effectively bulldozing half of the Gaza Strip. Also, as previously mentioned, perhaps try for the leadership of Hamas,  comfortably tucked away in the UAE. 

You think Israel should send troops into the UAE to hunt down the Hamas leadership?