Israel

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Must be staggering to those wanting an ‘unchecked’ Israel neutered that the UK govt is supporting the bad guys.

I don't think there are good and bad guys here. I think there's bad guys and badder guys. 

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

But the point is "most". If they'd have fired them at the centre of Tel Aviv and the Israeli defences had missed them then we'd be looking at far different escalations. 

What point are you trying to make ? Iran launched a load of missiles more in hope than expectation, and Israel's defences worked pretty much as intended.

Edited October 2 by badgerx16

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Iran felt it had no option than to take that action (obviously there's always a don't fire option).

But that was deliberately weighted and in the knowledge of Israel's defences. There was no expectation of mass carnage as a result of the attack.

They have been seen to have acted in support of their allies, with further escalation now in Israel's hands, as intended.

[Weston Super Saint]

53 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

But the point is "most". If they'd have fired them at the centre of Tel Aviv and the Israeli defences had missed them then we'd be looking at far different escalations. 

If my aunty had a cock she'd be my uncle....

Edit - obviously these days that quote is redundant...

Edited October 2 by Weston Super Saint

[whelk]

37 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Iran felt it had no option than to take that action (obviously there's always a don't fire option).

But that was deliberately weighted and in the knowledge of Israel's defences. There was no expectation of mass carnage as a result of the attack.

They have been seen to have acted in support of their allies, with further escalation now in Israel's hands, as intended.

Not so. Agree that applied to the first attack where drones gave plenty of advance warning so largely tokenism. Yesterday was more ferocious with ballistic missiles and was only US that gave Israel intel that was imminent. Fact that it appears not too much damage is not the same as was intended to not do much damage. As Benji highlights gives Israel an excuse, not that they needed one. 

[Farmer Saint]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

What point are you trying to make ? Iran launched a load of missiles more in hope than expectation, and Israel's defences worked pretty much as intended.

No, more that they were intended for military fixtures rather than civilians, and they expected a number to get through, which they seemed to. Hence why we saw little in the way of casualties. This was not Iran posturing, this was Iran wanting to do damage, and wanting to show that even Israel's defences can be breached. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

But the point is "most". If they'd have fired them at the centre of Tel Aviv and the Israeli defences had missed them then we'd be looking at far different escalations. 

If that was the case they still wouldn’t have killed many. Most buildings have shelters or re enforced rooms that will withstand attacks. The early warning sirens & the organised way the ordinary Israelis react to the sirens will protect a huge % of them. It’s a way of life out there, they’ve had 50 years of it. Lobbing missiles at Isreal is a compete & utter propaganda exercise. 

[badgerx16]

30 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

No, more that they were intended for military fixtures rather than civilians, and they expected a number to get through, which they seemed to. Hence why we saw little in the way of casualties. This was not Iran posturing, this was Iran wanting to do damage, and wanting to show that even Israel's defences can be breached. 

No defence is completely impervious, and ballistic missiles are incredibly difficult to neutralise. This was entirely Iranian posturing, and knowing the level of damage and casualties would be low. They now wait in anticipation of Israel's "proportionate" response - which will be much more restrained than would have been initiated had they launched a larger, more serious, strike.

[AlexLaw76]

David Lammy must be in a quandary: wants the Israeli PM arrested, but his government are willing participants for Isreal in this war.

 

[badgerx16]

27 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

David Lammy must be in a quandary: wants the Israeli PM arrested, but his government are willing participants for Isreal in this war.

 

Thinking Israel is unnecessarily aggressive does not preclude supporting it's right to exist.

[rallyboy]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

David Lammy must be in a quandary: wants the Israeli PM arrested, but his government are willing participants for Isreal in this war.

 

Now Lammy is thick, but I bet he can spell Israel.

Very wise not to attempt Netanyahu, know your limits.

 

 

 

[badgerx16]

It has been claimed that there were 22 dead, including 13 children, with many more injured in an IDF bomb strike on a school sheltering displaced people. The attack was meant to take out 1 member of Hamas.

Of course they are minimising collateral damage. ( They even incorrectly identified the school in their press briefing ).

Edited October 3 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

IDF tanks and infantry fire at UN observers in Lebanon.

[badgerx16]

Are airstrikes without warning, carried out on central residential areas of Beirut, justifiable ?

[benjii]

3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Are airstrikes without warning, carried out on central residential areas of Beirut, justifiable ?

Obviously not.

[Sheaf Saint]

21 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

IDF tanks and infantry fire at UN observers in Lebanon.

Once is careless. Twice is questionable.

But four times?

[egg]

8 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Are airstrikes without warning, carried out on central residential areas of Beirut, justifiable ?

Nope. They got away with it in Gaza, and they'll get away with it in Lebanon. They act with complete impunity. 

[Weston Super Saint]

11 minutes ago, egg said:

Nope. They got away with it in Gaza, and they'll get away with it in Lebanon. They act with complete impunity. 

There'll be a completely unverifiable announcement that so and so from the leadership of one of the terrorist organisations was also killed, thus justifying the bombing.

[sadoldgit]

The IDF have a very long history of not worrying about collateral damage. They even take out their own if needs be and were responsible for the death of a number Israelis on 7th October according to the Israeli police report.

I’ve mentioned this policy before.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#:~:text=A report by a UN,of carrying kidnapped Israeli soldiers.

Edited October 11 by sadoldgit

[Holmes_and_Watson]

8 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

There'll be a completely unverifiable announcement that so and so from the leadership of one of the terrorist organisations was also killed, thus justifying the bombing.

As you say. Command and control center according to rep on the radio.

[Lighthouse]

8 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Are airstrikes without warning, carried out on central residential areas of Beirut, justifiable ?

Yes. Not to secular, liberal Westerners discussing the matter on the internet but in that region both sides actions are completely justified by their own religious dogma.

[badgerx16]

25 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

The IDF have a very long history of not worrying about collateral damage. They even take out their own if needs be and were responsible for the death of a number Israelis on 7th October according to the Israeli police report.

I’ve mentioned this policy before.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#:~:text=A report by a UN,of carrying kidnapped Israeli soldiers.

You have, but were pulled up over exaggerating the number of "own goals" caused in a confused and fluid terrorist emergency.

[RedArmy]

Very quiet in here on October 7th. 
 

Strange. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

Yes. Not to secular, liberal Westerners discussing the matter on the internet but in that region both sides actions are completely justified by their own religious dogma.

I think only there, and to a few on here, is it believed that routinely destroying homes full of civilians to apparently target a single alleged operative is absolutely fine. 

[egg]

14 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

Very quiet in here on October 7th. 
 

Strange. 

What were you expecting? 

[badgerx16]

The IDF are now openly taking on the UN peacekkepers as Netanyahu demanding that they should be withdrawn. It is reported that the intention of the IDF is to prevent UN observation of their actions, hrnce the earleir incidents whrre the Israelis were trying to destroy CCTV and other cameras in the UN compounds..

Edited October 13 by badgerx16

[whelk]

SOG’s hiatus explained?

https://news.sky.com/story/swastikas-and-other-antisemitic-messages-raked-into-hendon-golf-club-bunkers-13232986

[whelk]

Well not going to get any more peaceful for Iran and Hezbollah now

[hypochondriac]

Oh dear

Edited October 16 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

It has become a pointless exercise to post about the strikes against civilians in Gaza, now we have the same daily reports from Lebanon.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-air-strike-kills-mayor-nabatieh-official-meeting
 

Over a year now and the killing of innocent civilians crosses more borders. We get the same old rhetoric about how, if you criticise the Israeli actions, you are antisemitic. The same blind eye is turned to the death of innocent Muslims from the same quarters. The Israeli government accuse the UN of being antisemitic and use the same card to ignore the countless sanctions against them for the many alleged contraventions of international law. A cease fire and peace talks are farther away than ever. It has be said many times but you don’t have to be Einstein to work out that the more women, children, journalists, aid workers, totally innocent civilians you kill and maime, the more your claim that you are acting in self defence looks hollow and the more you are sowing the seeds of more aggressive towards you and the people you represent in the future.

[skintsaint]

Looks like Israel have taken out Yahya Sinwar today.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

42 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Looks like Israel have taken out Yahya Sinwar today.

Someone on radio 5 linking the deaths of the 6 hostages in Sep as a shield for him, killed when they had to move on quickly. Beeb quick to point out that this hasn't been verified.

[whelk]

2 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Looks like Israel have taken out Yahya Sinwar today.

Great news

[Lord Duckhunter]

On 16/10/2024 at 14:16, sadoldgit said:

It has become a pointless exercise to post about the strikes against civilians in Gaza, now we have the same daily reports from Lebanon.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-air-strike-kills-mayor-nabatieh-official-meeting
 

Over a year now and the killing of innocent civilians crosses more borders. We get the same old rhetoric about how, if you criticise the Israeli actions, you are antisemitic. The same blind eye is turned to the death of innocent Muslims from the same quarters. The Israeli government accuse the UN of being antisemitic and use the same card to ignore the countless sanctions against them for the many alleged contraventions of international law. A cease fire and peace talks are farther away than ever. It has be said many times but you don’t have to be Einstein to work out that the more women, children, journalists, aid workers, totally innocent civilians you kill and maime, the more your claim that you are acting in self defence looks hollow and the more you are sowing the seeds of more aggressive towards you and the people you represent in the future.

What a load of old bollocks. 

[hypochondriac]

13 hours ago, whelk said:

Great news

Absolutely. Israel's success has been remarkable. 

[hypochondriac]

"ladies and gentlemen." We got him."

 

[badgerx16]

45 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Absolutely. Israel's success has been remarkable. 

Remarkable how much devastation and how many dead children it is taking to achieve their war aims.

 

Admittedly the trick pagers and radios were novel.

Edited Friday at 07:55 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Remarkable how much devastation and how many dead children it is taking to achieve their war aims.

 

Admittedly the trick pagers and radios were novel.

Actually, given the incredibly low civilian to militant casualty rate compared to the average in urban warfare, Israel's success is unprecedented. 

[sadoldgit]

More illegal occupation?

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241016-israel-leaders-to-hold-conference-to-encourage-resettlement-in-gaza-report/amp/

[sadoldgit]

17 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Looks like Israel have taken out Yahya Sinwar today.

Some 42,000 people killed before they finally kill him, and then just by chance. Will this be the end of it now? Not a chance.

[hypochondriac]

4 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Some 42,000 people killed before they finally kill him, and then just by chance. Will this be the end of it now? Not a chance.

An historically low number compared to combatants killed in urban modern warfare. Well done Israel. Obviously it won't be the end of it: 

 

In a piece entitled “Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You,” the group sets out six points explaining the justifications for their hatred of the West. It mentions, in order, the West’s disbelief in Islam, the prevalence of secularism, atheism, ‘transgressions’ against Islam, military operations, and territorial incursions.

While this ordering alone spells out what ISIS considers the most significant reasons for its actions, the group insists it is “important to understand” that “foreign policies” occupy only a secondary position. “The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam,” the article says. 

[egg]

4 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

An historically low number compared to combatants killed in urban modern warfare. Well done Israel. Obviously it won't be the end of it: 

 

In a piece entitled “Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You,” the group sets out six points explaining the justifications for their hatred of the West. It mentions, in order, the West’s disbelief in Islam, the prevalence of secularism, atheism, ‘transgressions’ against Islam, military operations, and territorial incursions.

While this ordering alone spells out what ISIS considers the most significant reasons for its actions, the group insists it is “important to understand” that “foreign policies” occupy only a secondary position. “The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam,” the article says. 

What's Isis got to do with Israel/Lebanon/Hamas/Hezbollah? 

And disappointing, although not terribly surprising, that your cool with 42k mostly civilian deaths. 

[Farmer Saint]

52 minutes ago, egg said:

What's Isis got to do with Israel/Lebanon/Hamas/Hezbollah? 

And disappointing, although not terribly surprising, that your cool with 42k mostly civilian deaths. 

Including a huge number of women and children. 

Saw a horrific video of a number of people burning to death in a "safe" encampment on the outskirts of Gaza. I suggest you all go and watch it - although I guess it will become wank bank material for some of you.

Edited Friday at 18:31 by Farmer Saint

[hypochondriac]

51 minutes ago, egg said:

What's Isis got to do with Israel/Lebanon/Hamas/Hezbollah? 

And disappointing, although not terribly surprising, that your cool with 42k mostly civilian deaths. 

What does one group who follows an extremist interpretation of Islam have to do with another group who follows an extremist interpretation of the same religion? Is there any sign that Hamas don't want to continually kill Jews in the same fashion? That they don't hate Israelis because of who they are and that the fact they are in Israel is of secondary importance? 

Like I said, civilians die in wars. The civilian to combatant death ratio in this urban modern war is vastly lower than other comparable wars in history. Presumably you hold every other country who has engaged in similar wars to the same standard and condemn them? 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Including a huge number of women and children. 

Saw a horrific video of a number of people burning to death in a "safe" encampment on the outskirts of Gaza. I suggest you all go and watch it - although I guess it will become wank bank material for some of you.

Name one other modern urban war that has had a lower ratio of women and children dead to enemy combatant. 

[egg]

16 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

What does one group who follows an extremist interpretation of Islam have to do with another group who follows an extremist interpretation of the same religion? Is there any sign that Hamas don't want to continually kill Jews in the same fashion? That they don't hate Israelis because of who they are and that the fact they are in Israel is of secondary importance? 

Like I said, civilians die in wars. The civilian to combatant death ratio in this urban modern war is vastly lower than other comparable wars in history. Presumably you hold every other country who has engaged in similar wars to the same standard and condemn them? 

That still doesn't explain what Isis have to do with a dispute they aren't involved with. 

Less civilians die in 'wars' when less civilians are targeted and/or where there are less attacks on places full of civilians. 

Your disregard for these deaths is shameful. 

If you want to start a thread about other conflicts, crack on, but I'm not getting drawn into that on this thread. 

[hypochondriac]

26 minutes ago, egg said:

That still doesn't explain what Isis have to do with a dispute they aren't involved with. 

Less civilians die in 'wars' when less civilians are targeted and/or where there are less attacks on places full of civilians. 

Your disregard for these deaths is shameful. 

If you want to start a thread about other conflicts, crack on, but I'm not getting drawn into that on this thread. 

What you've said there makes no sense whatsoever. I would have thought that the link between ISIS and Hamas would be obvious, even for you. I wonder if you can think of something in common that they might share? Of course other conflicts are relevant to this one. Simply condemning Israel for civilian deaths without looking at similar wars for context just proves that you're hellbent on holding the Israelis to a different standard. There's a word for that. 

[egg]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What you've said there makes no sense whatsoever. I would have thought that the link between ISIS and Hamas would be obvious, even for you. I wonder if you can think of something in common that they might share? Of course other conflicts are relevant to this one. Simply condemning Israel for civilian deaths without looking at similar wars for context just proves that you're hellbent on holding the Israelis to a different standard. There's a word for that. 

Jeez Hypo, you obviously believe that Iran and Isis are buddies!! Iran are state opponents of them. Perhaps broaden your knowledge - 4/1/24 is a good starting point. 

As I say, if you want a debate in other conflicts, start a discussion, and don't be assuming my views on matters I haven't addressed. 

 

[hypochondriac]

21 minutes ago, egg said:

Jeez Hypo, you obviously believe that Iran and Isis are buddies!! Iran are state opponents of them. Perhaps broaden your knowledge - 4/1/24 is a good starting point. 

As I say, if you want a debate in other conflicts, start a discussion, and don't be assuming my views on matters I haven't addressed. 

 

 

No I didn't say they were buddies you imbecile. They both share an extremist ideology of Islam and both despise Israel to the degree that they would continue to fight and murder them regardless of what Israel did. 

“The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam,” 

Is a quote that applies to Hamas as much as ISIS. How is that a difficult concept for you to grasp? 

As I said to you, you can't judge the war in Gaza without placing it in the context of other similar wars. Otherwise youre holding Israel to an entirely different standard that you wouldn't hold other nations to. 

[egg]

36 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No I didn't say they were buddies you imbecile. They both share an extremist ideology of Islam and both despise Israel to the degree that they would continue to fight and murder them regardless of what Israel did. 

“The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam,” 

Is a quote that applies to Hamas as much as ISIS. How is that a difficult concept for you to grasp? 

As I said to you, you can't judge the war in Gaza without placing it in the context of other similar wars. Otherwise youre holding Israel to an entirely different standard that you wouldn't hold other nations to. 

You don't get this do you. Iran and Isis are opponents. They support different branches of Islam. Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah against Israel. Iran get bombed by Isis. 

This is not an Isis war. It's Iranian backed militia and Israel.