badgerx16 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 (edited) 24 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: We were shown how precise munitions were in the Iraq war.,. No, we were selectively shown the images of when the 'smart' weapons worked as intended. Good advertising for the arms salesmen. I don't recall seeing the videos of when they hit the wrong target, which they often did. This article claims a much higher 'collateral' rate in the airstrikes against ISIS than the coalition admit to; https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12/04/the-smart-weapons-fallacy-civilian-casualties-from-precision-air-strikes-in-iraq-and-syria/ Ultimately, such weapons should hit the targets they are assigned, which only makes them as 'smart' as the humans operating them. Edited June 6 by badgerx16 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 hours ago, badgerx16 said: No, we were selectively shown the images of when the 'smart' weapons worked as intended. Good advertising for the arms salesmen. I don't recall seeing the videos of when they hit the wrong target, which they often did. This article claims a much higher 'collateral' rate in the airstrikes against ISIS than the coalition admit to; https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12/04/the-smart-weapons-fallacy-civilian-casualties-from-precision-air-strikes-in-iraq-and-syria/ Ultimately, such weapons should hit the targets they are assigned, which only makes them as 'smart' as the humans operating them. We have moved on 20 years and now also have drones that can take out individuals. The Israeli army also has a proud record in the past of surgical strikes against specific targets. If you fire rockets and shells into buildings you know to be full of women and children, guess what, you are going to kill a lot of women and children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Just now, sadoldgit said: We have moved on 20 years and now also have drones that can take out individuals. The Israeli army also has a proud record in the past of surgical strikes against specific targets. If you fire rockets and shells into buildings you know to be full of women and children, guess what, you are going to kill a lot of women and children. The article I posted relates to the war on ISIS not Desert Storm or Iraqi Freedom. I don't disagree that technology has moved on but, as I said above, these weapons are only as 'smart' as the instructions they are given. It is, however, a fact that despite all the tech advances most munitions used in war are 'dumb', and most casualties are caused by these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 18 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: We have moved on 20 years and now also have drones that can take out individuals. The Israeli army also has a proud record in the past of surgical strikes against specific targets. If you fire rockets and shells into buildings you know to be full of women and children, guess what, you are going to kill a lot of women and children. https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/02/19/wedding-became-funeral/us-drone-attack-marriage-procession-yemen That wicked Barak Obama, should be in The Hague - yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 3 hours ago, sadoldgit said: Yes I do waffle. And you are very grumpy. We were shown how precise munitions were in the Iraq war so it comes as a bit of a surprise to see so much “collateral damage” there is now by a well drilled and equipped military machine now. Unless,of course, the IDF are not bothered about precision and are just killing indiscriminately, which I think is more to the point. They aimed for a specific building. They hit the specific building they were aiming for. That seems to be the very definition of precise. Who was occupying the building at the time it was hit, very precisely, is completely irrelevant to the argument regarding the weapons being precise. Which they were. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Not helpful… https://amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/05/jerusalem-israeli-nationalist-flag-march-muslim-areas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 hours ago, badgerx16 said: The article I posted relates to the war on ISIS not Desert Storm or Iraqi Freedom. I don't disagree that technology has moved on but, as I said above, these weapons are only as 'smart' as the instructions they are given. It is, however, a fact that despite all the tech advances most munitions used in war are 'dumb', and most casualties are caused by these. Probably more of a reason not to use them where women and children are sheltering then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 10 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: Not helpful… https://amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/05/jerusalem-israeli-nationalist-flag-march-muslim-areas Thankfully we don’t have people marching through parts of London with a significant Jewish population, waving Palestinian flags. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: Thankfully we don’t have people marching through parts of London with a significant Jewish population, waving Palestinian flags. That wouldn't be helpful if we did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 (edited) 32 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: Probably more of a reason not to use them where women and children are sheltering then? Perhaps, but then you should be taking that up with the IDF. We do not know what their Rules of Engagement are, we are not privy to their intelligance briefings, we do not know whether some of their troops are simply trigger happy and enjoy wasting 'ragheads' - much like the apocryphal quote attributed to General Philip Sheridan, "The only good indian is a dead indian". Edited June 6 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 5 hours ago, sadoldgit said: Yes I do waffle. Fuck me, that was worth a fiver….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 2 hours ago, sadoldgit said: Probably more of a reason not to use them where women and children are sheltering then? That would be the whole of Palestine then which is the entire point. These barbaric terrorist monsters in Hamas are well practiced at hiding amongst the civilian population and effectively creating human shields for themselves. They don't give a shit about the people they endanger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 https://whereolivetreesweep.com/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 An example of real antisemitism https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-fascist-nazi-song-gas-them-all-ukip-brexit-schoolfriend-dulwich-college-a7185236.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 An example of real antisemitism (literally as defined by the IHRA). given the way that Jewish people have been discriminated against through the ages their treatment of the Palestinians does them no credit. You don’t get a free pass to crush someone or displace them just because it has happened to you in the past. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Spain joins the condemnation https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/6/6/spain-says-will-join-gaza-genocide-case-against-israel-at-icj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 (edited) 22 minutes ago, The Kraken said: An example of real antisemitism (literally as defined by the IHRA). given the way that Jewish people have been discriminated against through the ages their treatment of the Palestinians does them no credit. You don’t get a free pass to crush someone or displace them just because it has happened to you in the past. That is criticism of the way the Israeli government and their army are acting. It isn’t endorsing the way that Jewish people have been treated over the ages and certainly doesn’t endorse the Holocaust as Farage did. The same would be true if the comment was directed at anybody else but as we know, we are not allowed to be critical of the Israeli government and their military. There are Jewish people who make the same point. Edited June 7 by sadoldgit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Those words as written are literally a specified definition of antisemitism as stated by the IHRA, definitions which have been wholesale adopted by the UK Government and by the Labour Party. ‘Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 (edited) I am not holding all Jewish people responsible for the actions of Netanyahu, his government and his army and have said that there are plenty of Jewish people who do not agree with what is happening and support the Palestinians (not the extremist factions of course). I have made that perfectly clear throughout this thread. The principle is exactly the same as saying that Ukraine do not have the right to invade Russia and destroy its cities because Russia has done it to them. Would you accuse me of hating the whole population of the Ukraine? There is an issue here as Israel didn’t exist before 1948 so any mention of them before that refers to Jewish people. Later, after the creation of Israel, we defer to Israelis (who are predominately Jewish people). When we talk about generic international issues we usually talk about the country rather than the individuals making the decisions, hence Israeli Palestinian conflicts. Russia invading Ukraine. This continues to happen every day, the use of past events to try and diffuse and deflect criticism of actions now. I am just a random bloke on a football forum not explaining my opinion particularly well, but listen to the likes of Noam Chomsky who has a far greater insight into this than you and I. There are many deeply knowledgeable Jewish people who would also qualify as “antisemitic” because of their views. Edited June 7 by sadoldgit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 28 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: There is an issue here as Israel didn’t exist before 1948 ....... Calling King David to the forum. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Fucking hell he makes an anti semitic comment & 6 months later is still digging in. Most decent people would apologise & educate themselves, not this bloke. Shocking… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 1 hour ago, badgerx16 said: Calling King David to the forum. You got me there, but you know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmes_and_Watson Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 2 hours ago, The Kraken said: Those words as written are literally a specified definition of antisemitism as stated by the IHRA, definitions which have been wholesale adopted by the UK Government and by the Labour Party. ‘Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.’ That could be using the old method of identifying antisemitism, though. In the last week, SOG has been looking to redefine antisemitism. The same opinions everyone else would find abhorrent, but rebranded to deflect attention. Perhaps the new definition will follow on from last year's comments that indicated that if it didn't mention the Holocaust, it wasn't really anti Jewish. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 5 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said: That could be using the old method of identifying antisemitism, though. In the last week, SOG has been looking to redefine antisemitism. The same opinions everyone else would find abhorrent, but rebranded to deflect attention. Perhaps the new definition will follow on from last year's comments that indicated that if it didn't mention the Holocaust, it wasn't really anti Jewish. Yeah, Jeremy Corbyn had a go at that too, it didn’t end well for him as people chose to see through his rhetoric of “I’m not antisemitic, I only support the Palestinian cause” while completely enabling antisemitism within his own party. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 48 minutes ago, The Kraken said: Yeah, Jeremy Corbyn had a go at that too, it didn’t end well for him as people chose to see through his rhetoric of “I’m not antisemitic, I only support the Palestinian cause” while completely enabling antisemitism within his own party. I have already said that he handled the antisemitic claims badly. He has Jewish constituents who say he is not antisemitic but believe what you want. We have already been told by Duckie that if you criticise Jewish people that makes you antisemitic. We know now too that if you are pro Palestinian you are antisemitic. The bottom line is you cannot say anything against this Israeli government and the conduct of their military with being labelled antisemitic. It is a Get Out Of Jail Free card but it has been overplayed and Netanyahu’s government and their actions are the reason more and more people are speaking out against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 13 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: I have already said that he handled the antisemitic claims badly. He has Jewish constituents who say he is not antisemitic but believe what you want. We have already been told by Duckie that if you criticise Jewish people that makes you antisemitic. We know now too that if you are pro Palestinian you are antisemitic. The bottom line is you cannot say anything against this Israeli government and the conduct of their military with being labelled antisemitic. It is a Get Out Of Jail Free card but it has been overplayed and Netanyahu’s government and their actions are the reason more and more people are speaking out against them. are you suggesting the verdict was wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 7 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: We have already been told by Duckie that if you criticise Jewish people that makes you antisemitic I don’t decide what is and isn’t anti semitic. The internationally accepted definition (which labour now accept), is clear. What you wrote was anti semitic, however many times you try to wish it wasn’t, it was. If I was you I’d apologise & stop digging. Now you’ve coughed up a fiver, you’re free to do so. The fact you don’t think you’ve done anything wrong is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 16 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: He has Jewish constituents who say he is not antisemitic Oh that’s alright then. Case closed. “Some of his constituents are Jewish”, is the new “some of my best friends are black”. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 1 minute ago, sadoldgit said: I have already said that he handled the antisemitic claims badly. He has Jewish constituents who say he is not antisemitic but believe what you want. We have already been told by Duckie that if you criticise Jewish people that makes you antisemitic. We know now too that if you are pro Palestinian you are antisemitic. The bottom line is you cannot say anything against this Israeli government and the conduct of their military with being labelled antisemitic. It is a Get Out Of Jail Free card but it has been overplayed and Netanyahu’s government and their actions are the reason more and more people are speaking out against them. Oh please, you’re like a stuck record of “you can’t say nuffink these days without being called an antisemite”. Criticism of the Israeli government and support for the Palestinian people are perfectly fair game in themselves and you know this. Specifically, the words that you wrote and how you phrased them crossed the line and it’s telling you refuse to retract and choose to obfuscate instead. With Corbyn, yes good idea, I’ll believe what I want. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said: Oh that’s alright then. Case closed. “Some of his constituents are Jewish”, is the new “some of my best friends are black”. I’m not antisemitic but……. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Kraken said: Oh please, you’re like a stuck record of “you can’t say nuffink these days without being called an antisemite”. Criticism of the Israeli government and support for the Palestinian people are perfectly fair game in themselves and you know this. Specifically, the words that you wrote and how you phrased them crossed the line and it’s telling you refuse to retract and choose to obfuscate instead. With Corbyn, yes good idea, I’ll believe what I want. It is true though, from the Israeli government down to internet keyboard warriors. Only a few weeks ago the Israeli government was accusing the UN of antisemitism. These circular arguments are tiresome. I will say this for the last time. My view is and always has been that both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights to live in peace, without interference from the other within secure, agreed boundaries. Both sides need to agree to be bound by international law and adhere to UN resolutions. Palestine should be recognised as a state in its own right by all and the state of Israel accepted by all. The fighting has to stop now and talks begin to work towards a resolution that will be acceptable to all. Both sides are responsible for where we are today and both sides have equal responsibility for finding an equitable and peaceful solution. I think most normal, rational people would agree with those points as being something that should be aspired to. I am not sure how that fits in with a raging, Jew hating, antisemitic agenda, but there you go. If you have polarised view you will only see it one way anyway. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2019/12/7/is-jeremy-corbyn-a-threat-to-british-jews https://unherd.com/2020/10/is-corbyn-really-an-anti-semite/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-jeremy-corbyn-really-anti-semitic/ Edited June 7 by sadoldgit Added text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 I give up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 12 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: It is true though, from the Israeli government down to internet keyboard warriors. Only a few weeks ago the Israeli government was accusing the UN of antisemitism. These circular arguments are tiresome. I will say this for the last time. My view is and always has been that both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights to live in peace, without interference from the other within secure, agreed boundaries. Both sides need to agree to be bound by international law and adhere to UN resolutions. Palestine should be recognised as a state in its own right by all and the state of Israel accepted by all. The fighting has to stop now and talks begin to work towards a resolution that will be acceptable to all. Both sides are responsible for where we are today and both sides have equal responsibility for finding an equitable and peaceful solution. I think most normal, rational people would agree with those points as being something that should be aspired to. I am not sure how that fits in with a raging, Jew hating, antisemitic agenda, but there you go. If you have polarised view you will only see it one way anyway. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2019/12/7/is-jeremy-corbyn-a-threat-to-british-jews https://unherd.com/2020/10/is-corbyn-really-an-anti-semite/ 😇 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 7 minutes ago, The Kraken said: I give up Good. But I doubt you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 (edited) 1 hour ago, sadoldgit said: I have already said that he handled the antisemitic claims badly. He has Jewish constituents who say he is not antisemitic but believe what you want. We have already been told by Duckie that if you criticise Jewish people that makes you antisemitic. We know now too that if you are pro Palestinian you are antisemitic. The bottom line is you cannot say anything against this Israeli government and the conduct of their military with being labelled antisemitic. It is a Get Out Of Jail Free card but it has been overplayed and Netanyahu’s government and their actions are the reason more and more people are speaking out against them. He also has Jewish constituents who said he was very antisemitic. Truth is soggy you've been anti Israel for years now and have been desperate for a war to start so you could post your endless links from left wing publications bashing the Israelis and opining at length about the atrocities they have committed whilst devoting a cursory sentence or two to the other side because you've always been heavily biased against those you view as oppressors. Now you get to gleefully criticise them on basically a daily basis because it makes you feel a sense of moral superiority and the extent of your posting now is essentially this, posting about the far right and shouting at Tories. Edited June 7 by hypochondriac 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 7 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: 😇 If Jeremy Corbyn goes through a proper investigative process and is found to be antisemtic I will be the first to congratulate you for being right. Read all three articles though and tell me that there is conclusive evidence that he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 3 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: Good. But I doubt you will. True, if you continue to use problematic language akin to the specifics I quoted then yes, I’ll likely call it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 44 minutes ago, The Kraken said: True, if you continue to use problematic language akin to the specifics I quoted then yes, I’ll likely call it out. There are Jewish survivors of the Holocaust who make the same points in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 3 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said: That could be using the old method of identifying antisemitism, though. In the last week, SOG has been looking to redefine antisemitism. The same opinions everyone else would find abhorrent, but rebranded to deflect attention. Perhaps the new definition will follow on from last year's comments that indicated that if it didn't mention the Holocaust, it wasn't really anti Jewish. We talk about Arabs, Muslims and Islamists in generic terms too don’t we? As we do Russians, Ukrainians, Americans…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 7 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: We talk about Arabs, Muslims and Islamists in generic terms too don’t we? As we do Russians, Ukrainians, Americans…. There really should be a "Jesus wept" emoji for these posts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 46 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: We talk about Arabs, Muslims and Islamists in generic terms too don’t we? As we do Russians, Ukrainians, Americans…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 2 hours ago, sadoldgit said: If Jeremy Corbyn goes through a proper investigative process and is found to be antisemtic I will be the first to congratulate you for being right. Read all three articles though and tell me that there is conclusive evidence that he is. He called Hamas his friends FFS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmes_and_Watson Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 2 hours ago, sadoldgit said: We talk about Arabs, Muslims and Islamists in generic terms too don’t we? As we do Russians, Ukrainians, Americans…. Another colossally ignorant post. Your antisemitism is horrible enough. That you're clearly an imbecile, makes it worse. Instead of being limited to 3 posts a day, it's now a tirade of self delusion, infecting more of the threads. Too stupid to learn, too stupid to listen. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted June 8 Author Share Posted June 8 4 more hostages freed which is great. Dozens killed and injured doing so including kids, not so great, but it would never have happened if the hostages had been released. This needs sorting sharpish. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd11z2j34k4o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 42 minutes ago, egg said: 4 more hostages freed which is great. Dozens killed and injured doing so including kids, not so great, but it would never have happened if the hostages had been released. This needs sorting sharpish. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd11z2j34k4o Yep. Amazing news that some of these hostages were freed. What a terrible shame that other people had to die due to the actions of Hamas. Let's hope they release the others in order to prevent more of this sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 20 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said: Another colossally ignorant post. Your antisemitism is horrible enough. That you're clearly an imbecile, makes it worse. Instead of being limited to 3 posts a day, it's now a tirade of self delusion, infecting more of the threads. Too stupid to learn, too stupid to listen. You have just made some friends for life so well done. I am no more antisemitic than anyone sick of a conflict that has been going on for decades without any sign of an end. I am sick of seeing women and children being blown to bits. I am sick of seeing aid trucks ransacked before they reach their destinations. I am sick of being called names just because I think that an ultra nationalistic government is using its disproportionate power to commit genocide. You are another one of those people who use belittlement to shut someone down because you don’t like what they are saying. I am sorry that I do not have the monumental intellect that you do. I am also sorry that you don’t like my posts. Maybe use that huge brain of yours to figure out a way of not seeing them (here’s a hint, use the ignore button). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 (edited) Another POV that you won’t like. I guess that these people are ignorant to? https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2023/apr/24/un-ihra-antisemitism-definition-israel-criticism Edited June 8 by sadoldgit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 5 hours ago, egg said: 4 more hostages freed which is great. Dozens killed and injured doing so including kids, not so great, but it would never have happened if the hostages had been released. This needs sorting sharpish. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd11z2j34k4o But no one had to die. Get the cease fire sorted and negotiate a deal for the release. No danger to the IDF. No danger to the hostages. No danger to the civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 1 hour ago, sadoldgit said: But no one had to die. Get the cease fire sorted and negotiate a deal for the release. No danger to the IDF. No danger to the hostages. No danger to the civilians. That’s a great idea, surprised no one else has thought of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: That’s a great idea, surprised no one else has thought of it Simple isn’t it. Just sort out a ceasefire, release the hostages, job done. That sort of genius was wasted as a filing clerk at the CPS 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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