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36 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Netanyahu has said there will be no ceasefire until 'Israel's war aims are achieved”

The destruction of Hamas military and governing capabilities.

The freeing of all hostages. 

To ensure that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I take it all back!

Looks like having a cozy chat has come up with a plan for peace https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw8860gn1nwo

 

Will it be accepted by Hamas?  Are there any living hostages left that can be exchanged?  Will it last?

Will it be accepted by Netanhyau’s government? Probably not. Will the IDF stop the indescribably killing of Palestinian civilians and the intimidation of Palestinians in the West Bank? Probably not. Will it last? It probably won’t happened for some time.

Good to see Biden finally stepping up and trying to impose some authority, it is about time. But given that Netanyahu has recently said that he sees it lasting another 7 months and probably feels that he needs to kill more civilians and flatten more of Gaza to keep his government and the extremists in Israel happy, I think Biden is going to have to apply much more pressure to get Israel to the negotiating table.

The is a film coming out next week called Where Oliver Trees Weep and documents the experiences of several Palestinians living in the West Bank under Israeli occupation. There are a few on here who should watch it but probably won’t.

Edited by sadoldgit
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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Challenger said:

Can anyone explain why this conflict draws so much condemnation and demonstration on the streets of the UK but the Russian invasion of the Ukraine doesn't ?

Because it's completely different. If all the Ukrainians were herded over to Lviv, for example, all the other residential areas all but destroyed, ditto hospitals and infrastructure, then Lviv attacked, and the people herded away again, you'd have something that resembles what's happened on the ground. Throw in the lack of a Palestinian state, and everything else the Palestinians have suffered (in Gaza and West Bank), then it becomes fairly obvious why people are up in arms.

Weston is speaking for himself, or talking bollox, by saying it's a religious thing why people feel like they do. It's the scale of what Israel are doing in the context of the size of Gaza that sets it apart. 

Edited by egg
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12 minutes ago, egg said:

Because it's completely different. If all the Ukrainians were herded over to Lviv, for example, all the other residential areas all but destroyed, ditto hospitals and infrastructure, then Lviv attacked, and the people herded away again, you'd have something that resembles what's happened on the ground. Throw in the lack of a Palestinian state, and everything else the Palestinians have suffered (in Gaza and West Bank), then it becomes fairly obvious why people are up in arms.

Weston is speaking for himself, or talking bollox, by saying it's a religious thing why people feel like they do. It's the scale of what Israel are doing in the context of the size of Gaza that sets it apart. 

Yeah, no it's not though. Show me the thread where everyone is up in arms about what the Saudi's have done in Sana'a or the persecution of Muslims in Myanmar. The situation in Ukraine is FAR more one sided, disgusting and more innocent people have been killed over a much larger area. Last week Russia deliberately bombed a shopping centre in Kharkhiv, on a Saturday so as to kill the maximum number of civilians. Israel has never attempted to do anything like that, nor has Ukraine been firing rockets at civilians in Rostov on Don for the last few years.

People are up in arms about Israel because either:

A) They're Muslims and this is a centuries old religious war.

B) They're left wing Westerners and Israel = Jews = American solical/political elite, conservative, Ben Shapiro types = Establishment.

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1 minute ago, whelk said:

You really are a halfwit

Ha!! You post a video of an anti islamic post from a half Jewish bloke suggesting that people can't possibly protest this cause if they don't protest against "gender apartheid" (in Muslim countries) and you call me a halfwit. You presented as half intelligent once. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, egg said:

Ha!! You post a video of an anti islamic post from a half Jewish bloke suggesting that people can't possibly protest this cause if they don't protest against "gender apartheid" (in Muslim countries) and you call me a halfwit. You presented as half intelligent once. 

The point, as Lighthouse makes is you don’t care about injustices generally, just ones involving Jews. This is because you see them as the powerful and you feel for the oppressed. 
 

interesting you reference him being ‘half-Jewish’ twice. A big issue for you probably. And yeah everyone’s an Islamaphobe to you stupid cunts.

Edited by whelk
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Just now, Lighthouse said:

Yeah, no it's not though. Show me the thread where everyone is up in arms about what the Saudi's have done in Sana'a or the persecution of Muslims in Myanmar. The situation in Ukraine is FAR more one sided, disgusting and more innocent people have been killed over a much larger area. Last week Russia deliberately bombed a shopping centre in Kharkhiv, on a Saturday so as to kill the maximum number of civilians. Israel has never attempted to do anything like that, nor has Ukraine been firing rockets at civilians in Rostov on Don for the last few years.

People are up in arms about Israel because either:

A) They're Muslims and this is a centuries old religious war.

B) They're left wing Westerners and Israel = Jews = American solical/political elite, conservative, Ben Shapiro types = Establishment.

Why do people have to post about other conflicts to have a voice on this? 

Ukraine is a vast country. The proportion of it, and it's infrastructure, destroyed is a fraction of that in Gaza. Yes?

People suppress discussion on this topic because, and make the slurs that people like you do, because:

A. They support what's happening, or

B. They don't give a fuck, or

C. They are anti islamic.  

 

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1 minute ago, whelk said:

The point, as Lighthouse makes is you don’t care about injustices generally, just ones involving Jews. This is because you see them as the powerful and you feel for the oppressed. 
 

interesting you reference him being ‘half-Jewish’ twice. A big issue for you probably. And yeah everyone’s an Islamaphobe to you stupid cunts.

Nope, this is a thread about one specific subject so I'll confine my views to that subject. Daft to suggest that I shouldn't. 

The relevance of his being half Jewish is obvious - he's biased, and that comes through in every word he speaks. It's an attack on muslim practices - similar type of talk from a Muslim (or anyone) against Jews would quite rightly be condemned as anti Semitic.

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Just now, egg said:

Nope, this is a thread about one specific subject so I'll confine my views to that subject. Daft to suggest that I shouldn't. 

The relevance of his being half Jewish is obvious - he's biased, and that comes through in every word he speaks. It's an attack on muslim practices - similar type of talk from a Muslim (or anyone) against Jews would quite rightly be condemned as anti Semitic.

Do you think anyone who supports western democratic values should embrace Islam?

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Just now, whelk said:

Do you think anyone who supports western democratic values should embrace Islam?

The video wasn't about that. It was a bloke telling women that they can't support Palestine unless they join his condemnation of Muslim practices. It was biased and a blatant attempt to oppose protest.

I have no interest in a discussion about the rights and wrongs of religious practices, plus it's irrelevant to this topic. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you think Muslims can embrace western democratic values ?

Liberal ones yes, many won’t as is very much at odds with their beliefs 

Edited by whelk
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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, whelk said:

Liberal ones yes, many won’t as is very much at odds with their beliefs 

Would Muslims beliefs not be considered right wing in other money?

Edited by Turkish
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5 hours ago, Challenger said:

Can anyone explain why this conflict draws so much condemnation and demonstration on the streets of the UK but the Russian invasion of the Ukraine doesn't ?

The main difference is that our government supports Israel and the UK has a history with its creation so there is a point in the protests. Not sure what the point in protesting against Russia in London would be.

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12 hours ago, egg said:

Weston is speaking for himself, or talking bollox, by saying it's a religious thing why people feel like they do. It's the scale of what Israel are doing in the context of the size of Gaza that sets it apart. 

What a load of pony.  The Gaza war is loved because people can throw around Islamaphobe and anti-semitic insults.

Just like this one.

12 hours ago, egg said:

The fella is a half Jewish islamaphobe.  People can protest about the Israeli behaviour in Gaza without being compelled to protest against other issues. 

 

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On 30/05/2024 at 09:32, hypochondriac said:

Guessing you didn't watch it? Might be better to actually see what is said rather than dismissing it with an Internet link. I listened to his interview and previously one from Norman finkelstein who gave the opposing view and found both to be interesting and worthy of consideration. 

Whilst using both to confirm you views, no doubt.

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13 hours ago, egg said:

Why do people have to post about other conflicts to have a voice on this? 

You don’t. That has never been said but IF you do choose to only express your outrage at one side of one conflict, persistently, people will correctly assume you have an ulterior motive.

13 hours ago, egg said:

Ukraine is a vast country. The proportion of it, and it's infrastructure, destroyed is a fraction of that in Gaza. Yes?

Fantastic argument. The children of Ukraine having their guts blown across a play park, deliberately by Russia, for no other reason than to inflict maximum civilian casualties on a country which doesn’t want to be an obedient faction of their empire, will be relieved to hear that it’s not as bad as Gaza because they represent a lower proportion of the overall population.

 

13 hours ago, egg said:

People suppress discussion on this topic because, and make the slurs that people like you do, because

Nobody is suppressing you, I haven’t made any slurs, stop trying to engineer yourself towards being the victim. You’re free to express any opinion you like but nobody else is obliged to blindly believe that it must be out of some greater sense of altruism and not question your motives.

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52 minutes ago, whelk said:

Understandable given their Palestinian heritage. How do you know not one penny to another cause. Charity isn’t something you should parade 

 

I thought you'd be horrified by their exclusive public support for an isolated cause Whelk. 

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5 minutes ago, egg said:

I thought you'd be horrified by their exclusive public support for an isolated cause Whelk. 

That’s because you are quite dim

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38 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You don’t. That has never been said but IF you do choose to only express your outrage at one side of one conflict, persistently, people will correctly assume you have an ulterior motive.

Fantastic argument. The children of Ukraine having their guts blown across a play park, deliberately by Russia, for no other reason than to inflict maximum civilian casualties on a country which doesn’t want to be an obedient faction of their empire, will be relieved to hear that it’s not as bad as Gaza because they represent a lower proportion of the overall population.

 

Nobody is suppressing you, I haven’t made any slurs, stop trying to engineer yourself towards being the victim. You’re free to express any opinion you like but nobody else is obliged to blindly believe that it must be out of some greater sense of altruism and not question your motives.

It seems that everything is a great argument if it aligns to your views, and a shocker if it doesn't. 

On your first point, have a little think what the thread is about. It's only by your metric, and a few others, that people can't express a contrary view to yours on the actual subject without aspersions being cast. Frankly, that says more about you than me. 

What's happening in Ukraine is appalling, but the scale on a proportionate basis isn't on a par with what's happening in Gaza. In you think otherwise, I'd be staggered. Re Ukraine, I've tried joining that thread but there's a few (you being one) who haven't got a clue (telling us ages ago that Russia were all but out of ammo and hardware, cos that's what you were hoping for) so discussion was pointless. 

Re the last point, your posts are littered with suggestions (the post that I'm responding to being a case point) that people who take a contrary view have an ulterior motive or similar. The ulterior motives, consciously or otherwise, emanate from you and people with your views. That bloke in the video that Whelk linked being another. The message is simple, and stupid  - your views aren't valid unless you show outage against other appalling situations. 

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5 minutes ago, whelk said:

That’s because you are quite dim

I'm unsure whether you lean more towards a superiority or inferiority complex Whelk. You're strangely inconsistent, but plainly not as bright as you initially present as. 

 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, whelk said:

The point, as Lighthouse makes is you don’t care about injustices generally, just ones involving Jews. This is because you see them as the powerful and you feel for the oppressed. 
 

interesting you reference him being ‘half-Jewish’ twice. A big issue for you probably. And yeah everyone’s an Islamaphobe to you stupid cunts.

100%. Does Islamophobe means thinks that many followers of Islam are completely backwards, follow a medieval ideology, oppress women and have loads of examples of barbarity? If that's the definition then sign me up. 

Edited by hypochondriac
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14 hours ago, egg said:

Nope, this is a thread about one specific subject so I'll confine my views to that subject. Daft to suggest that I shouldn't. 

The relevance of his being half Jewish is obvious - he's biased, and that comes through in every word he speaks. It's an attack on muslim practices - similar type of talk from a Muslim (or anyone) against Jews would quite rightly be condemned as anti Semitic.

Hold on. So you can't for example condemn the use of the hijab as an attack on women or their laws about rape because that a Muslim practice? And to do so you would rightly be condemned as anti Islamic? 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you think Muslims can embrace western democratic values ?

Absolutely they can. My wife's uncle for example. Interesting to see the plethora of polls that shows that many Muslims themselves would disagree with that. 

Edited by hypochondriac
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45 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm unsure whether you lean more towards a superiority or inferiority complex Whelk. You're strangely inconsistent, but plainly not as bright as you initially present as. 

 

Don’t know what you would present as evidence I may have an inferiority complex. Superiority I get that perception.

true genius is always misunderstood 😉

 

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46 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

As opposed to refusing to listen to any opposing argument from your own in the first place? 

You come across as thinking you are superior for watching videos containing views opposed to yours. You also seem very absolute about your position so I can't see any evidence that watching them has influenced you at all. So what the point if they are only used to confirm you own views. Other than to learn the oppositions view, because you love the argument and the grandstanding.

I am firmly of the view that there is nothing a right wing commentator can teach me about most subjects. I get information from more restrained outlets.

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2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

You come across as thinking you are superior for watching videos containing views opposed to yours. You also seem very absolute about your position so I can't see any evidence that watching them has influenced you at all. So what the point if they are only used to confirm you own views. Other than to learn the oppositions view, because you love the argument and the grandstanding.

I am firmly of the view that there is nothing a right wing commentator can teach me about most subjects. I get information from more restrained outlets.

No I don't, that's your incorrect reading of the situation. A frequent criticism is that I haven't listened to other arguments so I'm biased. When I demonstrate examples of listening to other views you pop up to say that I just listened in order to confirm my bias. 

Unlike you, I try to get news from a wide range of sources on the left and right and I don't try to close myself off from a particular avenue simply because I disagree with them politically. Your way where you don't believe that anyone to the right of you is not someone worth learning to simply leads to ending up in an echo chamber.

My view is not absolute - I have said for example that proven cases of IDF misconduct or illegal killings should be dealt with. The IDF are like any other party engaged in a war and should be held accountable the way that others are. 

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Posted (edited)

Some questions -

If a poster supports a people who are systematically being killed, maimed, starved and displaced, oppressed and intimidated by one of the mightiest nations on the planet who are being investigated for genocide, why the assumption that there might be an ulterior motive and what exactly would that motive be.

Why is it an issue to post opinions on a thread about the Israeli/Palestinian situation on a thread about the Israeli/Palestinian situation? Sure, there is plenty of crap going on in the world but the only other thread about  international troubles is the Ukraine one so it seems like no one in this forum wants to raise other issues. That does mean that no one cares or is interested in them though does it?

This has been headline news in our media since last October and given our role in why we are where we are it would be more of an issue if nobody wanted to talk about it wouldn’t it? It is not mutually exclusive to care about an issue and post on a forum about another.

Given the amount of fuss made over protesters singing “From The River To The Sea” there hasn’t been a peep from the same people about Tommy Robinson and his thugs marching through London yesterday chanting “Allah is a c*nt.” Ulterior  motives maybe?  The large banner they carried saying This Is London Not Londonistan was dismissed as just a bit of bantz no doubt.

This desperation to discredit genuine concern for a people and their homes which are being obliterated by inferring some kind of hatred for a certain religion is very poor. If I was a cynic I might say that it is being driven by an ulterior motive.

Footnote - I don’t know if this has been mention before but the name Semite was originally given to a group of people who spoke the same language. This group included both Arabs and Jews. This means that Arabs are also Semites and when you label someone as an anti Semite you are inferring that they hate Arabs too. Perhaps it would be more helpful if you used a more appropriate label, anti Jewish? You won’t though because you know that weakens your argument. So much easier to label someone as antisemitic than someone who has issues against a religious sect eh? Especially as Judaism, Islam and Christianity all flow from the same beginnings.

 

Edited by sadoldgit
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47 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Given the amount of fuss made over protesters singing “From The River To The Sea” there hasn’t been a peep from the same people about Tommy Robinson and his thugs marching through London yesterday chanting “Allah is a c*nt.” Ulterior  motives maybe?  The large banner they carried saying This Is London Not Londonistan was dismissed as just a bit of bantz no doubt.

 

 

I suspect it has more to do no-one else having a clue that the complete weapon Tommy Robinson was marching through London yesterday.  It appears you are the only one who pays any attention to him.

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6 hours ago, aintforever said:

That was 2 years ago when it all started, made sense then.

So what you said was wrong, there was a point about protesting against Russia in London. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, aintforever said:

The main difference is that our government supports Israel and the UK has a history with its creation so there is a point in the protests. Not sure what the point in protesting against Russia in London would be.

 

9 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I never said anything about two years ago, try reading.

Here is what you said. You said no point protesting against Russia in London for political reasons stating a clear difference in the governmental support of the respective states. You don’t understand what you’re saying do you. 

Edited by Turkish
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2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I suspect it has more to do no-one else having a clue that the complete weapon Tommy Robinson was marching through London yesterday.  It appears you are the only one who pays any attention to him.

Just like Farage SOG seems obsessed with Tommy Robinson knowing his every move.
 

Still amusing that hes criticising the “right wing” posters on here because he was the first to mentions a march I suspect none of the so called Tommy Robinson supporters on here has any idea happened. 

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2 hours ago, Turkish said:

 

Here is what you said. You said no point protesting against Russia in London for political reasons stating a clear difference in the governmental support of the respective states. You don’t understand what you’re saying do you. 

Yes, reply to Challenger's point about what is happening NOW, not 2 years ago. There were loads of protests throughout Europe when Russia first invaded. Since then our government has shown complete support to Ukraine, sent millions in aid, trained their troops, sent tanks, Stormshadow missiles and all sorts of military kit, plus imposed massive sanctions. Going on a protest march is a pretty futile act anyway, when the above doesn’t stop Putin it’s pretty obvious marching though London won’t achieve anything.

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6 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Yes, reply to Challenger's point about what is happening NOW, not 2 years ago. There were loads of protests throughout Europe when Russia first invaded. Since then our government has shown complete support to Ukraine, sent millions in aid, trained their troops, sent tanks, Stormshadow missiles and all sorts of military kit, plus imposed massive sanctions. Going on a protest march is a pretty futile act anyway, when the above doesn’t stop Putin it’s pretty obvious marching though London won’t achieve anything.

The UK government supports Israel.

Does that mean marching through London won't achieve anything?

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22 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

The UK government supports Israel.

Does that mean marching through London won't achieve anything?

I would suspect that is one of the main reasons they are marching, to try to get the government to put more pressure on Israel. I’ve never been on one of these marches so wouldn’t know. 

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