Israel

[egg]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I’m sure those same states would be happy enough to tolerate Jewish people living on that land. Just so long as they’re a second class ethnic minority, who submit to strict Islamic law and give up on silly Jewish, secular ideas such as voting, women’s rights, gay bars, music festivals, freedom of expression, clothing and apostasy.

Much as our western values make us dislike that kind of culture, it's their culture and we have to accept it for what it is. So would Jews if they lived there. 

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

There's a few accounts that many living in Kibbutz Be’eri were quite up for living next to Palestinians. Then a load of them got raped, burnt alive etc. Seems like a pretty naive attitude to have tbh.  

And there were many people in Gaza who didn’t have a problem with Israelis but are now buried under rubble or are starving to death. Even for you that was an extremely stupid and crass response but then you have made it perfectly clear what you think about Muslims.

 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Some of the coalition parties in Netanyahu's government are vehemently anti-arab, oppose any form of 2 State solution, are against gay rights, mysogynistic, want the Government and Law to more closely follow the religious texts, and are often described as "facist'.

As do many of the hard right elements in Europe and N. America, that’s not the law of the land though, is it.

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Can you not vote in Malaysia then?

Well done, you’ve named a Muslim state 4,000 miles away in a separate part of the world. That completely negates Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, Saudi Arabia and all the other hardcore rulers in the region who rule with an iron fist.

1 hour ago, egg said:

Much as our western values make us dislike that kind of culture, it's their culture and we have to accept it for what it is. So would Jews if they lived there. 

Amazing. So you can’t see anything wrong with that argument that a Jewish person might object to? Human rights? No thanks, that’s not our culture.

[egg]

17 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Amazing. So you can’t see anything wrong with that argument that a Jewish person might object to? Human rights? No thanks, that’s not our culture.

Why are you focusing on Jews living in a Muslim state? The solution is 2 states, but Israel oppose that and the current Palestinian view on that is not known. 

And yep, other states cultures and other states interpretation of Sharia has fuck all to with us. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

50 minutes ago, egg said:

but Israel oppose that and the current Palestinian view on that is not known. 

You’ve jumped the shark now. I’d wager there’s a higher % of Israeli’s in favour of a 2 state solution than there is in Palestine. In factor I wouldn’t bet against “final” being above “2 state” if you asked the Palestinian population what the solution is. 

Edited April 11 by Lord Duckhunter

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

As do many of the hard right elements in Europe and N. America, that’s not the law of the land though, is it.

 

But in Europe and  the USA they are not in Government, in Israel they are the Government.

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

In fact I wouldn’t bet against “final” being above “2 state” if you asked the Palestinian population what the solution is. 

What if you had asked them before Oct 7th and the subsequent levelling of Gaza ?

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You’ve jumped the shark now. I’d wager there’s a higher % of Israeli’s in favour of a 2 state solution than there is in Palestine. In factor I wouldn’t bet against “final” being above “2 state” if you asked the Palestinian population what the solution is. 

Behave Duck. 

I'd wager that you're wrong, but let's have a little look at facts rather before we focus on opinion. 

What the mass Israeli population want, neither of us know. Regardless, their government and many of their people grab land from the Palestinians. Their government have said recently that they oppose a 2 state solution. Facts Ducky, facts, which fly in the face of your opinion. 

If we're considering opinion, I'd wager that If Israel got out of the west bank and east Jerusalem, and pledged to stay out, that the Palestinian people would be cool with that as a solution alongside Israel. 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

6 hours ago, egg said:

You're inability to look at this with balance makes discussion impossible Hypo. Israel do not respect the land that the Palestinians already have and constantly settle it and force Palestinians from their land. They oppose 2 states. If the Palestinians supported 2 states, the fact that the Israeli's don't (and wouldn't based on their form in the west bank), means that sustained peace is impossible

You haven't exactly demonstrated an ability to look at this issue with balance either (plus you won't answer the questions I was asking, you simply want to discuss Israel.) The answer of course is that Palestine do not support two states and even if Israel left the West Bank, the vast majority of Palestinians and all of Hamas would not recognise their right to exist. I don't think you can seriously contest that. 

[hypochondriac]

4 hours ago, egg said:

Why are you focusing on Jews living in a Muslim state? The solution is 2 states, but Israel oppose that and the current Palestinian view on that is not known. 

And yep, other states cultures and other states interpretation of Sharia has fuck all to with us. 

"the current Palestinian view on that is not known" fucking hell... 

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

But in Europe and  the USA they are not in Government, in Israel they are the Government.

It's a bit of a silly discussion but if it were a competition about which governments were most liberal, I don't think it's much of a contest between Israel and the likes of Iran or Saudi. 

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, egg said:

Behave Duck. 

I'd wager that you're wrong, but let's have a little look at facts rather before we focus on opinion. 

What the mass Israeli population want, neither of us know. Regardless, their government and many of their people grab land from the Palestinians. Their government have said recently that they oppose a 2 state solution. Facts Ducky, facts, which fly in the face of your opinion. 

If we're considering opinion, I'd wager that If Israel got out of the west bank and east Jerusalem, and pledged to stay out, that the Palestinian people would be cool with that as a solution alongside Israel. 

 

 

If you're looking into quotes from the Israeli government, do you want to look at some quotes from Hamas members in the last couple of years even prior to October 7th? Particularly if you're looking to criticise a state for the words of their government. 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

If you're looking into quotes from the Israeli government, do you want to look at some quotes from Hamas members in the last couple of years even prior to October 7th? Particularly if you're looking to criticise a state for the words of their government. 

No.

7/10 has happened, and we're now in a situation where Israel has decimated Gaza. What people may have said pre all of this doesn't address the now and the future. 

As I've said up there, we don't know the current Palestinian position on 2 states. 

Palestine isn't a state. That's the point. 

 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

No.

7/10 has happened, and we're now in a situation where Israel has decimated Gaza. What people may have said pre all of this doesn't address the now and the future. 

As I've said up there, we don't know the current Palestinian position on 2 states. 

Palestine isn't a state. That's the point. 

 

Do you have any evidence that a majority of the Palestinian people oppose Hamas? 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Do you have any evidence that a majority of the Palestinian people oppose Hamas? 

What are you on about? 

I have no opinion on the Palestinian's view of Hamas. 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

What are you on about? 

I have no opinion on the Palestinian's view of Hamas. 

Sorry I thought my question was quite clear. I have seen no evidence that the Palestinian people oppose Hamas and some evidence that the opposite is true (happy to look at anything I might have missed that suggests they do oppose them.) It's relevant because Hamas are very clear about what they think about 2 states or at least there are many quotes from members making it plain what they think. It would be quite odd if the Palestinian people didn't oppose Hamas but supported the existence of an Israeli state. I have yet to see any evidence that that is the case 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Sorry I thought my question was quite clear. I have seen no evidence that the Palestinian people oppose Hamas and some evidence that the opposite is true (happy to look at anything I might have missed that suggests they do oppose them.) It's relevant because Hamas are very clear about what they think about 2 states or at least there are many quotes from members making it plain what they think. It would be quite odd if the Palestinian people didn't oppose Hamas but supported the existence of an Israeli state. I have yet to see any evidence that that is the case 

Of course there's no evidence of what the Gaza folk want. Are you expecting an opinion poll or something from them?! 

Got any links to the current position of Hamas re 2 states?

You appreciate that Hamas don't rule all of the Palestinian land?

What does it matter what Hamas/PA/Palestinians think about 2 states given that Israel have dismissed the idea recently? 

[Lighthouse]

5 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

But in Europe and  the USA they are not in Government, in Israel they are the Government.

Jacob Rees-Mogg is a member of our government. He’s a ludicrous, God-bothering, caricature of a conservative, straight out of Python’s Upper Class Twit of the Year contest. Do I care? No. All I care about is the rules they make me live by, they can believe in whatever they want. However you try and dress it up, the rules Israelis are forced to live by are far more palatable than in any of their neighbouring Arab states, especially if you’re a woman, homosexual, political opponent or just not particularly religious. The fact that aintforever had to hop on an eight hour flight to Kuala Lumpur to try and prove me wrong on just one of those issues sort of proves my point.

[aintforever]

35 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Jacob Rees-Mogg is a member of our government. He’s a ludicrous, God-bothering, caricature of a conservative, straight out of Python’s Upper Class Twit of the Year contest. Do I care? No. All I care about is the rules they make me live by, they can believe in whatever they want. However you try and dress it up, the rules Israelis are forced to live by are far more palatable than in any of their neighbouring Arab states, especially if you’re a woman, homosexual, political opponent or just not particularly religious. The fact that aintforever had to hop on an eight hour flight to Kuala Lumpur to try and prove me wrong on just one of those issues sort of proves my point.

I only mentioned Malaysia because it was on the list of countries YOU posted as proof of countries that had a policy of zero Jews in Palestine - which is just complete bollocks. 

[hypochondriac]

• Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.” 
• Hamas member, Ghazi Hamad on October 24, 2023: “Israel is a country that has no place on our land […] because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation.” (October 24, 2023, LBC TV (Lebanon)). He also vowed to repeat the October 7 attacks “time and again until Israel is annihilated,” and expressing a desire to “sacrifice martyrs” (referring to Gazan civilians) for Hamas’ ideological aim of destroying Israel. 
• Hamas senior leader Khaled Mashal stated on October 19, 2023 that he views the current loss of civilian life in Gaza – brought about by Hamas' strategy of using human shields – as essential: “No nation is liberated without sacrifices... In all wars, there are some civilian victims. We are not responsible for them.” 
• Hamas senior leader Ismail Haniyeh, commenting on the loss of civilian life in Gaza on October 26, 2023: “The blood of the women, children and elderly […] we are the ones who need this blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit.” 

Hamas have been clear about what they believe. I'd genuinely be interested to see evidence that a majority of Palestinians oppose this group given what they believe. The only information I've seen is that a majority support them and that support has grown. 

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, egg said:

Of course there's no evidence of what the Gaza folk want. Are you expecting an opinion poll or something from them?! 

Got any links to the current position of Hamas re 2 states?

You appreciate that Hamas don't rule all of the Palestinian land?

What does it matter what Hamas/PA/Palestinians think about 2 states given that Israel have dismissed the idea recently? 

Yes an opinion poll. Here's one from the end of last year saying a big majority supporting the October 7th attack:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

Here's another from last month 

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/

According to this poll 59% believe Hamas should be in charge in Gaza and 70% support Gaza's role in the conflict. They also don't believe Hamas have committed any war crimes. 

So there we have some evidence that a significant number of the Palestinian people support Hamas - an organisation whose members vehemently oppose the existence of Israel as evidenced by the quotes above (with many more available if required.) Given this support, it's obviously a fantasy to suggest that these people are down for a 2 state solution. Hamas have dismissed the idea recently, in the past and will continue to do so in the future. I have seen no evidence from anyone connected to them that they want a 2 state solution. If your claim is that this is what the people of Palestine want then you should provide evidence because the only evidence I have seen suggests the exact opposite. 

[benjii]

17 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I’m sure those same states would be happy enough to tolerate Jewish people living on that land. Just so long as they’re a second class ethnic minority, who submit to strict Islamic law and give up on silly Jewish, secular ideas such as voting, women’s rights, gay bars, music festivals, freedom of expression, clothing and apostasy.

Now you're just being silly and you're conflating various different issues.

The reality is that most Jews live outside Israel and that most Israelis chose to go and live there. If anyone is imposing cultural norms on that piece of land, it's not really the Arabs.

And dare I say that your view of how the typical Arab state operates is a wee bit racist.

[benjii]

7 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Jacob Rees-Mogg is a member of our government. He’s a ludicrous, God-bothering, caricature of a conservative, straight out of Python’s Upper Class Twit of the Year contest. Do I care? No. All I care about is the rules they make me live by, they can believe in whatever they want. However you try and dress it up, the rules Israelis are forced to live by are far more palatable than in any of their neighbouring Arab states, especially if you’re a woman, homosexual, political opponent or just not particularly religious. The fact that aintforever had to hop on an eight hour flight to Kuala Lumpur to try and prove me wrong on just one of those issues sort of proves 

None of the neighbouring states are hard-line Islamist states. 

This is precisely why Iran backs terrorist groups in the region. The countries in the region generally want stable nation states, built around ideas of nation-hood and participation in the international community, not pan-national religious twaddle. Iran is the outlier seeking to gain influence against the emerging Saudi presence on the global stage by pushing a concept of pan-national Islamism. The rulers in the Gulf states, in Jordan, in Syria etc. have no time for these ideologies and are focused on economic growth as a part of the global community (obviously Syria is connected to Iran and Russia for a variety of reasons so is a bit of an outlier, but it certainly isn't an Islamic state by ideological conviction).

Yes, they are not democracies but many of the citizens in those countries are quite happy about that.

Frankly, if you're colonial settlers, I'm not sure you have the right to moan in any case. 

Edited April 12 by benjii

[benjii]

4 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Yes an opinion poll. Here's one from the end of last year saying a big majority supporting the October 7th attack:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

Here's another from last month 

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/

According to this poll 59% believe Hamas should be in charge in Gaza and 70% support Gaza's role in the conflict. They also don't believe Hamas have committed any war crimes. 

So there we have some evidence that a significant number of the Palestinian people support Hamas - an organisation whose members vehemently oppose the existence of Israel as evidenced by the quotes above (with many more available if required.) Given this support, it's obviously a fantasy to suggest that these people are down for a 2 state solution. Hamas have dismissed the idea recently, in the past and will continue to do so in the future. I have seen no evidence from anyone connected to them that they want a 2 state solution. If your claim is that this is what the people of Palestine want then you should provide evidence because the only evidence I have seen suggests the exact opposite. 

Of course they're not up for it when they are being starved and bombed. And neither would you be.

The groundwork for the 2 state solution has to start with Israel which has almost total economic and military control of the entire country. They need to do the work to change attitudes (which are arguably quite legitimate - I don't think I'd like a bunch of foreigners turning up, forcing me into smaller parcels of land, declaring me unwelcome in certain areas, controlling when I can leave, stealing farmland, locking up children, occasionally sniping folk, etc...). We British don't even like pathetic consignments of bedraggled folk on dinghies occupying the rooms of some of Kent's finest 3 star hotels.

There is no war or battle for supremacy. It's done. So there are two options: Israel pushes for complete subjugation/displacement of the people who have actually lived there for centuries; or, Israel tries to create an environment where a solution can work, which would involved a bit of humility, which sadly seems in short supply amongst Israeli politicians. 

On top of that, the world needs to do more to stop rogue nations like Iran and Russia from causing trouble.

Edited April 12 by benjii

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

Of course they're not up for it when they are being starved and bombed. And neither would you be.

The groundwork for the 2 state solution has to start with Israel which has almost total economic and military control of the entire country. They need to do the work to change attitudes (which are arguably quite legitimate - I don't think I'd like a bunch of foreigners turning up, forcing me into smaller parcels of land, declaring me unwelcome in certain areas, controlling when I can leave, stealing farmland, locking up children, occasionally sniping folk, etc...). We British don't even like pathetic consignments of bedraggled folk on dinghies occupying the rooms of some of Kent's finest 3 star hotels.

There is no war or battle for supremacy. It's done. So there are two options: Israel pushes for complete subjugation/displacement of the people who have actually lived there for centuries; or, Israel tries to create an environment where a solution can work, which would involved a bit of humility, which sadly seems in short supply amongst Israeli politicians. 

On top of that, the world needs to do more to stop rogue nations like Iran and Russia from causing trouble.

Instead Israel has opted for a third way, trying to create a world where they can live safely without the need to find a peaceful solution. They manage the Palestinians to breaking point whilst allowing their right wing and ultra-religious to slowly steal land. Their third way isn't working.

Careful the 'you're just a soppy hippy' brigade will be along in a minute. 

[hypochondriac]

That stance is completely unrealistic. If there was any evidence at all that Hamas wanted peace and wanted to coexist with Israel then it's almost possible to have a point that Israel could dial down some of the rhetoric and look for a negotiated settlement. These people want to wipe Jews off the map. No one has provided any evidence to the contrary. It's been repeated on here many times but it's impossible to compromise with a group that views the continued existence of Israel as an affront. 

[whelk]

2 hours ago, benjii said:

Now you're just being silly and you're conflating various different issues.

The reality is that most Jews live outside Israel and that most Israelis chose to go and live there. If anyone is imposing cultural norms on that piece of land, it's not really the Arabs.

And dare I say that your view of how the typical Arab state operates is a wee bit racist.

Do you agree with the formation of Israel?

[whelk]

28 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Careful the 'you're just a soppy hippy' brigade will be along in a minute.

Bless. SOG’s MO seems to be rubbing off

[badgerx16]

23 minutes ago, whelk said:

Do you agree with the formation of Israel?

Do you agree that Palestinians have the right to self-determination on land they can call their own ?

[egg]

31 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That stance is completely unrealistic. If there was any evidence at all that Hamas wanted peace and wanted to coexist with Israel then it's almost possible to have a point that Israel could dial down some of the rhetoric and look for a negotiated settlement. These people want to wipe Jews off the map. No one has provided any evidence to the contrary. It's been repeated on here many times but it's impossible to compromise with a group that views the continued existence of Israel as an affront. 

You're a broken record. Israel does not want an independent Palestine. For years it has settled the little land that they have, etc, etc. You cannot have peace unless both sides respect the right of the other to exist. It's not complicated. 

[trousers]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you agree that Palestinians have the right to self-determination on land they can call their own ?

How can you have "self-determination" on something like choice of land to live on if someone else also believes they have the right to claim it too....? Isn't it the act of "self-determination" that ultimately leads to war? Surely its collaboration and compromise that's required rather than "self-determination"...?

(sorry, I tend to avoid these types of circular debates these days, so it may be a bit of a dumb question....)

Edited April 12 by trousers

[egg]

4 minutes ago, trousers said:

How can you have "self-determination" on something like choice of land to live on if someone else also believes they have the right to claim it too....? Isn't it the act of "self-determination" that ultimately leads to war? Surely its collaboration and compromise that's required rather than "self-determination"...?

(sorry, I tend to avoid these types of circular debates these days, so it may be a bit of a dumb question....)

A state each. Self determination for each state on their own land. Israel have recently rejected that. Again. 

[badgerx16]

12 minutes ago, trousers said:

How can you have "self-determination" on something like choice of land to live on if someone else also believes they have the right to claim it too....? Isn't it the act of "self-determination" that ultimately leads to war? Surely its collaboration and compromise that's required rather than "self-determination"...?

(sorry, I tend to avoid these types of circular debates these days, so it may be a bit of a dumb question....)

It was a rhetorical post aimed at the repeated jibe "Do you believe in the formation of Israel ?". Israel cannot exist without the displacement of Palestinians, whether it be the within the 1947, 1967, or 1974 borders, so where do the Palestinians go, and are they justified in feeling aggrieved ? The fact of the matter is that 2 opposing groups of people want control of the same bit of land, and use religion as their justification for whatever actions they deem necessary.

Edited April 12 by badgerx16

[Lighthouse]

3 hours ago, benjii said:

Now you're just being silly and you're conflating various different issues.

The reality is that most Jews live outside Israel and that most Israelis chose to go and live there. If anyone is imposing cultural norms on that piece of land, it's not really the Arabs.

And dare I say that your view of how the typical Arab state operates is a wee bit racist.

I'm being silly? None of these arguments make any sense, people are just doing ridiculous mental gymnastics to try and avoid accepting what's staring them in the face. How can you say that Arabs are not imposing norms on that piece of land, with a straight face? I've just explained which human rights Jews would have to give up if they lived in a Palestinian state, people seem absolutely determined to either stick their head in the sand or bail out like egg did and just say, "that's their culture."

[hypochondriac]

25 minutes ago, egg said:

You're a broken record. Israel does not want an independent Palestine. For years it has settled the little land that they have, etc, etc. You cannot have peace unless both sides respect the right of the other to exist. It's not complicated. 

Pot calling the kettle black! Whenever I point out the anti Israel stances of Hamas and others your only response is to talk about the Israelis. You know there can never be peace because Hamas and those who support them will never allow it. Feel free to respond by talking about Israel again... 

Edited April 12 by hypochondriac

[trousers]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The fact of the matter is that 2 opposing groups of people want control of the same bit of land

That's the price we pay for the existence of the Animal Kingdom I guess, the human race in particular... this whole animal concept was flawed from the outset... now, who was to blame for that... God or the Big Bang....?)

(sorry, I'm not helping one jot here, am I....? ) 

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, egg said:

A state each. Self determination for each state on their own land. Israel have recently rejected that. Again. 

Hamas and their supporters have never shown any inclination that they would ever accept that in their entire history. 

[hypochondriac]

13 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

It was a rhetorical post aimed at the repeated jibe "Do you believe in the formation of Israel ?". Israel cannot exist without the displacement of Palestinians, whether it be the within the 1947, 1967, or 1974 borders, so where do the Palestinians go, and are they justified in feeling aggrieved ? The fact of the matter is that 2 opposing groups of people want control of the same bit of land, and use religion as their justification for whatever actions they deem necessary.

So if we take what you've posted at face value and accept it - do you agree that some degree of displacement should have taken place in order to allow Israel to exist? Or not? 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Pot calling the kettle black! Whenever I point out the anti Israel stances of Hamas and others your only response is to talk about the Israelis. You know there can never be peace because Hamas and those who support them will never allow it. Feel free to respond by talking about Israel again... 

I can see both positions Hypo. You're unable to, that's clear. 

Back to the principles rather than posters.

We know that Israel have recently completely refused the idea of 2 states. 

What we don't know is the Palestinian attitude (it's people, PA, Hamas) if it were offered now on sensible terms (ie full autonomy and no Israeli presence).

And yes, I will focus on Israel as for the reasons Benji has posted, it is them who need to create an environment for change and peace. 

 

[egg]

11 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Hamas and their supporters have never shown any inclination that they would ever accept that in their entire history. 

For the 100th time, we're now in a different phase, and Hamas are not Palestine. 

[badgerx16]

19 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So if we take what you've posted at face value and accept it - do you agree that some degree of displacement should have taken place in order to allow Israel to exist? Or not? 

You cannot undo 1947, so what you have to do is somehow persuade both sides to compromise. Israel within the pre 6 day war borders, Jerusalem as an "open"' city - Holy for all 3 Abrahamic faiths, and International recognition and guarantee of Palestine within the West Bank, might be an option, but then agsin I might be a Martian.

Edited April 12 by badgerx16

[egg]

16 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I'm being silly? None of these arguments make any sense, people are just doing ridiculous mental gymnastics to try and avoid accepting what's staring them in the face. How can you say that Arabs are not imposing norms on that piece of land, with a straight face? I've just explained which human rights Jews would have to give up if they lived in a Palestinian state, people seem absolutely determined to either stick their head in the sand or bail out like egg did and just say, "that's their culture."

Jews don't have to live in a Palestinian state. Who's suggesting that as a solution? 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, egg said:

I can see both positions Hypo. You're unable to, that's clear. 

Back to the principles rather than posters.

We know that Israel have recently completely refused the idea of 2 states. 

What we don't know is the Palestinian attitude (it's people, PA, Hamas) if it were offered now on sensible terms (ie full autonomy and no Israeli presence).

And yes, I will focus on Israel as for the reasons Benji has posted, it is them who need to create an environment for change and peace. 

 

No. The difference is I don't make a moral equivalence between the two. It is clear that you do as you've stated many times. I can absolutely see why a Palestinian civilian might be upset by the fallout from a war but I find it curious that a majority still support the terrorists who committed the acts and who continue to hold hundreds of hostages. 

If what you are saying is that you can't take polling from Palestinian polling companies and statements from Hamas as incredibly strong indications of what the answer from Palestinian civilians would be (incidentally support for PA has nosedived) and you don't accept that public statements from Hamas are not shared by a majority of the Palestinian people that they claim to represent, then by that logic we've never had any idea of what the Palestinian people think on anything. 

Your last sentence is just wrong. 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

For the 100th time, we're now in a different phase, and Hamas are not Palestine. 

For the 100th time where is your evidence that a majority of the Palestinian people oppose Hamas? I've shown you recent data that suggests the opposite. Is your suggestion that a majority disagrees with the views stated by Hamas? If you have evidence to that effect then provide it and we can talk about Hamas and the Palestinian people as a separate entity. 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No. The difference is I don't make a moral equivalence between the two. It is clear that you do as you've stated many times. I can absolutely see why a Palestinian civilian might be upset by the fallout from a war but I find it curious that a majority still support the terrorists who committed the acts and who continue to hold hundreds of hostages. 

If what you are saying is that you can't take polling from Palestinian polling companies and statements from Hamas as incredibly strong indications of what the answer from Palestinian civilians would be (incidentally support for PA has nosedived) and you don't accept that public statements from Hamas are not shared by a majority of the Palestinian people that they claim to represent, then by that logic we've never had any idea of what the Palestinian people think on anything. 

Your last sentence is just wrong. 

Nobody is supporting terrorists. Stop with the childish jibes. 

Why is it wrong to suggest that Israel do not need to create an environment for change and peace? I assume that's you saying that they don't need change, and it's all on those pesky Palestinians? If I assume wrongly, what are you saying? 

[Lighthouse]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Jews don't have to live in a Palestinian state. Who's suggesting that as a solution? 

Literally every Arab country, terrorist group and militia which denies Israel's right to exist as a country at all. That's been explained Christ knows how many times, we're going around in circles here, I'm done. 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

You cannot undo 1947, so what you have to do is somehow persuade both sides to compromise. Israel within the pre 6 day war borders, Jerusalem as an "open"' city - Holy for all 3 Abrahamic faiths, and International recognition and guarantee of Palestine within the West Bank, might be an option, but then agsin I might be a Martian.

I was talking hypothetically. If you were able to travel to that period of history and have influence over the outcome would you do so? Do you support the formation of Israel when it was formed even if in your mind that meant that some Palestinians had to be displaced? 

With regards to your second point like you say it's a nice idea but it's pretty much impossible to get both sides to agree so it's fanciful. 

[badgerx16]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I was talking hypothetically. If you were able to travel to that period of history and have influence over the outcome would you do so? Do you support the formation of Israel when it was formed even if in your mind that meant that some Palestinians had to be displaced? 

With regards to your second point like you say it's a nice idea but it's pretty much impossible to get both sides to agree so it's fanciful. 

But would you be operating in 1947 with advanced knowledge of what was to come ? Hypothetical thought games are great fun, but solve nothing; do you ignore the Balfour Declaration, what do you do with thousands upon thousands of displaced Jews in post-Holocaust Europe. ? What if, in 1919, the British had granted Prince Faisal the Kingdom they promised for his support in fighting the Ottomans ?

We are where we are, and somebody, somehow, has to knit a solution out of the current fog of hatred and violence.

Edited April 12 by badgerx16

[trousers]

So, are we at least in agreement that there is no solution to this problem? (that both sides are ever going to agree on)

Edited April 12 by trousers

[hypochondriac]

Just now, egg said:

Nobody is supporting terrorists. Stop with the childish jibes. 

Why is it wrong to suggest that Israel do not need to create an environment for change and peace? I assume that's you saying that they don't need change, and it's all on those pesky Palestinians? If I assume wrongly, what are you saying? 

I was referring to the polling which shows that a majority in Palestine support Hamas and their aims who are a terrorist group. It's not a childish jibe but interesting that you consider it so. 

 

It's naive in the extreme and in my view historically illiterate to suggest that the onus is on Israel to be conciliatory towards someone like Hamas with the belief that somehow they will renounce their murderous ways and not try to remove the Jewish state from existence as they have done many times over the last century. I don't know for certain because no one does but I expect what Israel wants to do is to largely wipe out the threat of Hamas for a generation and once they are confident of that goal there will no doubt be a conclusion to this war and they may be more amenable to talk about solutions. Hopefully at that point both sides can work towards a solution but I would imagine that Israel would want to feel some degree of confidence that there will be no repeat of October the 7th in the near future which will almost certainly mean they would want negotiations from a group that don't involve Hamas or anyone connected to them.