Israel

[Lighthouse]

20 hours ago, benjii said:

The history of the region, religious beliefs, the appaling acts and appaling governance of Hamas, who is a terrorist vs. a freedom fighter etc... irrelevant.

If a Hamas sympathiser set off a bomb in a British Synagogue today, would you be saying Israel’s actions in Gaza were irrelevant?

[sadoldgit]

Written by some woke hippy no doubt so therefore no big deal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gaza-hamas-war-ai-b2523039.html

[egg]

20 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

If a Hamas sympathiser set off a bomb in a British Synagogue today, would you be saying Israel’s actions in Gaza were irrelevant?

I think you've lost your way a bit in your attempt to justify your sympathies on this issue. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

26 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Written by some woke hippy no doubt so therefore no big deal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gaza-hamas-war-ai-b2523039.html

“low-level Hamas operatives” 

 

 

[benjii]

55 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

If a Hamas sympathiser set off a bomb in a British Synagogue today, would you be saying Israel’s actions in Gaza were irrelevant?

"Irrelevant" was probably the wrong word. 

Clearly, there is a causal chain between various events.

The point I was trying to make is that none of that background justifies the Israeli response, notwithstanding the complex history.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

Written by some woke hippy no doubt so therefore no big deal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gaza-hamas-war-ai-b2523039.html

Woke hippy is too generous a term for an antisemite like yourself

[sadoldgit]

37 minutes ago, whelk said:

Woke hippy is too generous a term for an antisemite like yourself

You lost any moral high ground you might have thought you had when you said that all Palestinians deserved their fate because they were family members, friends and acquaintances of Hamas members. You also lose points for throwing antisemite accusations around in order to deflect from your own well documented Islamophobia. Grow up and own your own prejudices. How many more non Muslim Europeans have to be killed by the IDF before you accept that they are just as indiscriminately murderous as any Islamic terrorist group? One of the many differences between us is that I want to see the end of attacks on innocent people on both sides of the conflict whereas you clearly believe that all Palestinians are expendable.

Getting back to the grown up conversation, someone on LBC just made the point that the current Israeli government are more concerned with acquiring more territory than they are in finding a peaceful settlement to this conflict. They are still taking land illegally in the West Bank and we have heard how some Israelis are already dividing up prime plots of real estate in Gaza. Seems like a reasonable judgement.

Edited April 5 by sadoldgit

[aintforever]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 A deliberate  targeting of innocent civilians cheered on and celebrated by their supporters in Gaza.

 

That’s the key point though isn’t it. Why do a bunch of terrorists like Hamas have so much support?

I believe that generally the vast majority of people are good people. Wether you are Palestinian, Israeli, Russian or Ukrainian. Christian, Jew or Muslim - we are all basically the same but just live in different circumstances. If people are getting fucked over by another group of people then terrorists on their side will get support from normal people. If we had our land occupied by another group some of us would just keep our head down and get on with our lives, others would fight back and do terrible things to their side, it’s just human nature. 

The only way to ever find a solution is to marginalise the extremists in both sides but every killing that happens on either side makes that harder and harder. 

[badgerx16]

"Israel military fires senior officers after aid workers killed in Gaza"

https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/pmY3K2

 

Edited April 5 by badgerx16

[egg]

UN human rights council have backed a resolution for a weapons ban on Israel for its war conduct. Only 6 nations opposed the resolution. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-68738452?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=660fc902b26acd1fbf33090b%26Why the UN rights council vote on Israel is significant%262024-04-05T12%3A46%3A16.499Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:28274bf9-6216-456b-b198-c9808aafc2d8&pinned_post_asset_id=660fc902b26acd1fbf33090b&pinned_post_type=share

[egg]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

“low-level Hamas operatives” 

 

 

Strange part of the article to focus in. To address that, let's assume that he's perhaps a bloke that went to a Hamas meeting, or drives a Hamas vehicle.  They therefore blow his house up killing another 20 innocent people. 

Is that reasonable in your opinion? 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

Getting back to the grown up conversation, someone on LBC just made the point that the current Israeli government are more concerned with acquiring more territory than they are in finding a peaceful settlement to this conflict. 

What a load of pony. “Grown up conversation”, fuck me, from a bloke who spent a day of his life trying to prove Jews weren’t a race.  
 

If this was about wanting land the Israelis would have waltzed in years ago. They wouldn’t have waited until Hamas attacked innocent people. The Israelis have said all along, they want to wipe out Hamas. That’s been their intention from 7/10, you can’t expect them to make peace with people who given half a chance will do the same thing over & over again. War is a dirty horrible business & innocent people get killed. Perhaps Hamas should of thought about that on the evening of 6th October. 

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What a load of pony. “Grown up conversation”, fuck me, from a bloke who spent a day of his life trying to prove Jews weren’t a race.  
 

If this was about wanting land the Israelis would have waltzed in years ago. They wouldn’t have waited until Hamas attacked innocent people. The Israelis have said all along, they want to wipe out Hamas. That’s been their intention from 7/10, you can’t expect them to make peace with people who given half a chance will do the same thing over & over again. War is a dirty horrible business & innocent people get killed. Perhaps Hamas should of thought about that on the evening of 6th October. 

Does war justify killing 20 innocent people for 1 low level target?

[Lord Duckhunter]

14 minutes ago, egg said:

Strange part of the article to focus in. To address that, let's assume that he's perhaps a bloke that went to a Hamas meeting, or drives a Hamas vehicle.  They therefore blow his house up killing another 20 innocent people. 

Is that reasonable in your opinion? 

It’s reasonable to kill someone who helps Hamas, if innocent people die as a result, that’s down to Hamas.
 

Was it reasonable to drop bombs on Nagasaki & Hiroshima. That took out far far more innocent people than the Israelis have. 

[Lighthouse]

3 hours ago, benjii said:

"Irrelevant" was probably the wrong word. 

Clearly, there is a causal chain between various events.

The point I was trying to make is that none of that background justifies the Israeli response, notwithstanding the complex history.

That’s fair enough, thanks for clarifying.

4 hours ago, egg said:

I think you've lost your way a bit in your attempt to justify your sympathies on this issue. 

I don’t have any sympathy to justify, beyond the fact that the whole Middle East has a sorry and enduring history of lost human lives. I don’t sympathise with Israel but there are quite clearly a lot of regional politics which are relevant to this issue. You’re conflating understanding with sympathy, they’re two different things.

[Weston Super Saint]

8 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Does war justify killing 20 innocent people for 1 low level target?

According to Shari'a law, there are no "innocent" people once a fatwah has been declared.

[egg]

55 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Does war justify killing 20 innocent people for 1 low level target?

The only reasonable answer is no. I'd be interested to know who on here is honest enough to say yes. 

 

[egg]

55 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s reasonable to kill someone who helps Hamas, if innocent people die as a result, that’s down to Hamas.
 

Was it reasonable to drop bombs on Nagasaki & Hiroshima. That took out far far more innocent people than the Israelis have. 

On the first part. Let's say that back in the day some young Irish lad goes and buys the cakes for an IRA meeting. Helping them. Would it have been ok for the British army to blow up a place where he's staying and kill 20 innocents? Would those deaths have been on the IRA, or the army?

The second part is too daft to address. This isn't WW2. It's not even a war. 

[swannymere]

Anyone else find it odd that people who normally would be anti Semitic are quite happy to side with the Israeli government against the Palestinians?

 

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

According to Shari'a law, there are no "innocent" people once a fatwah has been declared.

Ok thanks.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

According to Shari'a law, there are no "innocent" people once a fatwah has been declared.

How does that relate to Israeli's killing 20 innocents to get 1 alleged Muslim van driver? 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s reasonable to kill someone who helps Hamas, if innocent people die as a result, that’s down to Hamas.
 

Was it reasonable to drop bombs on Nagasaki & Hiroshima. That took out far far more innocent people than the Israelis have. 

I refer you to my previous response to your false equivalence.

[Weston Super Saint]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

How does that relate to Israeli's killing 20 innocents to get 1 alleged Muslim van driver? 

Because....  According to Shari'a law, there are no "innocent" people once a fatwah has been declared.

[badgerx16]

23 minutes ago, swannymere said:

Anyone else find it odd that people who normally would be anti Semitic are quite happy to side with the Israeli government against the Palestinians?

 

The Arabic peoples are Semitic.

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Because....  According to Shari'a law, there are no "innocent" people once a fatwah has been declared.

Since when has Israel been issuing fatwahs under Sharia Law ?

Edited April 5 by badgerx16

[whelk]

4 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

You lost any moral high ground you might have thought you had when you said that all Palestinians deserved their fate because they were family members, friends and acquaintances of Hamas members. You also lose points for throwing antisemite accusations around in order to deflect from your own well documented Islamophobia. Grow up and own your own prejudices. How many more non Muslim Europeans have to be killed by the IDF before you accept that they are just as indiscriminately murderous as any Islamic terrorist group? One of the many differences between us is that I want to see the end of attacks on innocent people on both sides of the conflict whereas you clearly believe that all Palestinians are expendable.

Getting back to the grown up conversation, someone on LBC just made the point that the current Israeli government are more concerned with acquiring more territory than they are in finding a peaceful settlement to this conflict. They are still taking land illegally in the West Bank and we have heard how some Israelis are already dividing up prime plots of real estate in Gaza. Seems like a reasonable judgement.

I have no pretence on my views and comical how someone as dim as you thinks they understand. Clear where your antisemitic views lie and bet your little dinky gets a tingle at how you can now post and get likes from fellow saps who think you are someone who seeks peace. Mask slipped along time ago. 

Edited April 5 by whelk

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Since when has Israel been issuing fatwahs ?

I'm not sure you're keeping up.

I'll explain.

Hamas have issued a Fatwa - against Israel.  According to Shari'a law, once a Fatwa is declared ALL Muslims (that includes women, men and children) have a part to play in defeating the 'enemy'.  I've put many links in this thread where this is explained in Hamas's text.

This means, technically, under the law practised by the controlling party of Hamas, there are no 'innocent' people in Palestine, given that they all HAVE to participate in the war.

For the avoidance of doubt (I know the 6th form debating team can sometimes be easily confused), I am not condoning this, I don't agree with Shari'a Law, I'm merely pointing out what the religion requires.

[egg]

15 minutes ago, whelk said:

I have no pretence on my views and comical how someone as dim as you thinks they understand. Clear where your antisemitic views lie and bet your little dinky gets a tingle at how you can now post and get likes from fellow saps who think you are someone who seeks peace. Mask slipped along time ago. 

Oh the irony. 

[egg]

24 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Because....  According to Shari'a law, there are no "innocent" people once a fatwah has been declared.

I know. I repeat the question, what does that have to do with Israel killing Muslims? Israel don't practice Sharia law. Should we punish Muslims over here using Sharia law?!

[badgerx16]

22 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I'm not sure you're keeping up.

I'll explain.

Hamas have issued a Fatwa - against Israel.  According to Shari'a law, once a Fatwa is declared ALL Muslims (that includes women, men and children) have a part to play in defeating the 'enemy'.  I've put many links in this thread where this is explained in Hamas's text.

This means, technically, under the law practised by the controlling party of Hamas, there are no 'innocent' people in Palestine, given that they all HAVE to participate in the war.

For the avoidance of doubt (I know the 6th form debating team can sometimes be easily confused), I am not condoning this, I don't agree with Shari'a Law, I'm merely pointing out what the religion requires.

Oh. I am keeping up. A Fatwa is issued usually, though not exclusively, as an interpretation of scripture by a Mufti. It is open to debate and opposition, and importantly is non-binding. In this case, it is Hamas' interpretation of how a Fatwa works that leads them to imply it is compulsory.

Edited April 5 by badgerx16

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Oh the irony. 

Bless. Go and put some likes on some posts mate. Quite sweet

[badgerx16]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

I know. I repeat the question, what does that have to do with Israel killing Muslims? Israel don't practice Sharia law. Should we punish Muslims over here using Sharia law?!

WSS is saying that because Hamas has issued a Fatwa all the people in Gaza are compelled to support it. This, as an interpretation of Sharia, I believe, is incorrect.

Edited April 5 by badgerx16

[egg]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Bless. Go and put some likes on some posts mate. Quite sweet

Ha!! I'll carry on playing the post not the poster, anl like what I like mate, especially posts that call out people's unacceptable views. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

WSS is saying that because Hamas has issued a Fatwa all the people in Gaza are compelled to support it. This, as an interpretation of Sharia, I believe, is incorrect.

I'm not sure that extends to an invading army, and their airplanes/drones that don't touch the Gaza ground. 

[Weston Super Saint]

13 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

WSS is saying that because Hamas has issued a Fatwa all the people in Gaza are compelled to support it. This, as an interpretation of Sharia, I believe, is incorrect.

I agree.  As a normal, regular interpretation of a Fatwa it would be incorrect.  We aren't talking about 'normal' Muslim interpretations when it comes to Hamas though.  We're talking about extreme interpretations from a terrorist organisation.

[Weston Super Saint]

14 hours ago, egg said:

I know. I repeat the question, what does that have to do with Israel killing Muslims? Israel don't practice Sharia law. Should we punish Muslims over here using Sharia law?!

That hasn't repeated the question.  This time you've dropped the word 'innocent'. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

15 hours ago, egg said:

especially posts that call out people's unacceptable views. 

Apart from Soggys anti semitic posts (which you ignored), what are these “unacceptable views”. Different opinions, don’t make them “unacceptable “. You might not agree with what isreal are doing, but it’s not “unacceptable “ to think wiping Hamas out is justified. unfortunately innocents will die as part of this goal. 
 

I seem to recall the Yanks bombing an Iraqi wedding when Obama was commander in chief (& sleepy Joe his right hand man), so these things happen in war. The hypocrisy because it’s Isreal involved is a joke, particularly from Countries that were falling over themselves to support them in the days following 7/10 & have weighed into conflicts with far less justification than this. 

Edited April 6 by Lord Duckhunter

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I agree.  As a normal, regular interpretation of a Fatwa it would be incorrect.  We aren't talking about 'normal' Muslim interpretations when it comes to Hamas though.  We're talking about extreme interpretations from a terrorist organisation.

But you haven't explained why this hamas islamic fatwa extends to the Israelis jewish armed forces.

You're seeing the word innocent and running with it, into a bit of a dead end.

[egg]

6 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

But you haven't explained why this hamas islamic fatwa extends to the Israelis jewish armed forces.

You're seeing the word innocent and running with it, into a bit of a dead end.

Exactly. Hamas issuing a fatwa against an invading force apparently gives licence to Israel to kill anyone and everyone. Weston's got lost down his own rabbit hole on this one. 

[Fan The Flames]

13 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Apart from Soggys anti semitic posts (which you ignored), what are these “unacceptable views”. Different opinions, don’t make them “unacceptable “. You might not agree with what isreal are doing, but it’s not “unacceptable “ to think wiping Hamas out is justified. unfortunately innocents will die as part of this goal. 
 

I seem to recall the Yanks bombing an Iraqi wedding when Obama was commander in chief (& sleepy Joe his right hand man), so these things happen in war. The hypocrisy because it’s Isreal involved is a joke, particularly from Countries that were falling over themselves to support them in the days following 7/10 & have weighed into conflicts with far less justification than this. 

You rightly raged about innocent people being killed in the dessert but are prepared to puff your chest out, lean back on the bar and declare that it's just tough luck if innocent Palestinians die in such large numbers.

I just don't get that compartmentalised way of thinking. I guess it's easy to be a pub hard man when you have no skin in the game and the others are just some sixth form thinking, post liking, soppy hippies.

[egg]

32 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Apart from Soggys anti semitic posts (which you ignored), what are these “unacceptable views”. Different opinions, don’t make them “unacceptable “. You might not agree with what isreal are doing, but it’s not “unacceptable “ to think wiping Hamas out is justified. unfortunately innocents will die as part of this goal. 
 

I seem to recall the Yanks bombing an Iraqi wedding when Obama was commander in chief (& sleepy Joe his right hand man), so these things happen in war. The hypocrisy because it’s Isreal involved is a joke, particularly from Countries that were falling over themselves to support them in the days following 7/10 & have weighed into conflicts with far less justification than this. 

Your views are unacceptable in my view. You bang on about the non anti semitic soggy being anti semitic, but let's be honest Duck, you're not on any moral high ground with a lot of your comments. Anyways, I'll go no further as I'll leave the focus on personalities to people who choose to deflect.

Your view that killing 20 innocent people to kill one (alleged) low level Hamas operative is deplorable in my opinion. Frankly, you've got to be a bit of a cunt to think the Israeli actions are right. 

You didn't answer my hypothetical question about the low level IRA operative. Presumably you feel that wiping out a building full of people to take out the cake boy in that situation would have been ok? Or is that kind of behaviour only ok against Muslims? 

Edited April 6 by egg

[AlexLaw76]

Wonder who Soggy and co voted for in 2005, after the UK unleashed hell on the civilian population of entire cities in Iraq...

[egg]

6 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Wonder who Soggy and co voted for in 2005, after the UK unleashed hell on the civilian population of entire cities in Iraq...

It's 2024 Alex, and we're trying to discuss Israel/Gaza. Please keep up. 

[Fan The Flames]

4 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Wonder who Soggy and co voted for in 2005, after the UK unleashed hell on the civilian population of entire cities in Iraq...

But you've continually condemned the UK for doing this but don't condemn other countries for doing the same. Weird.

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, egg said:

It's 2024 Alex, and we're trying to discuss Israel/Gaza. Please keep up. 

Labour then.

 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Labour then.

 

What a great contribution to an Israel/Gaza thread, it's really added something to the debate about what's happening in April 2024. You're wrong for what it's worth. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

39 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

when you have no skin in the game

“No skin in the game”. Apart from Hamas trying to blow me & Mrs Duck to high heaven you mean? 

[Fan The Flames]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

“No skin in the game”. Apart from Hamas trying to blow me & Mrs Duck to high heaven you mean? 

Desperate. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 minute ago, egg said:

What a great contribution to an Israel/Gaza thread, it's really added something to the debate about what's happening in April 2024. You're wrong for what it's worth. 

If Cameron & Biden are critical of Israel, then surely their record in Iraq & Libya are legitimate subjects to discuss. 

[egg]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

If Cameron & Biden are critical of Israel, then surely their record in Iraq & Libya are legitimate subjects to discuss. 

I appreciate it's easier to change the subject than to try to justify your views on the murderous Israeli regime, but I ain't playing that game. If you want to discuss past conflicts, start another thread.