Israel

[aintforever]

11 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

By Jove, I think he's finally getting it!

There are two ways to eliminate Hamas.

1. Eliminate Hamas

2. Eliminate everyone and everything in Gaza.

Both have the same outcome, one is way easier than the other to facilitate.

 

They won't eliminate Hamas and they know it. They are just handing out revenge in the form of collective punishment of everyone in Gaza.

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, egg said:

Lol at the daft cunts finding that funny. 

 

Just in case you were confused, it's soggy's pontificating, stating opinion as fact and his sense of moral superiority from every post that is funny. 

Edited March 8 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

49 minutes ago, egg said:

Why should Egypt absorb 2.3m people when the western world, the us included, can see that the logical solution is ceasefire and a Palestinian state. Do you support or oppose that? 

So the reason that Palestinians have nowhere to go is because Egypt have closed the border. 

[Lighthouse]

23 minutes ago, aintforever said:

They won't eliminate Hamas and they know it. They are just handing out revenge in the form of collective punishment of everyone in Gaza.

Why does it have to be an absolute? Israel isn’t going to create a utopia here but they can go a long way towards protecting their own interests for many years to come.

[hypochondriac]

18 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Why does it have to be an absolute? Israel isn’t going to create a utopia here but they can go a long way towards protecting their own interests for many years to come.

Yep and that's the exact reason they are doing it. If it is the case that they can't eliminate Hamas, what they can do is cripple them for a generation and increase their own security in the process. That's what they're in the process of doing. 

[aintforever]

18 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Why does it have to be an absolute? Israel isn’t going to create a utopia here but they can go a long way towards protecting their own interests for many years to come.

Short term they have reduced Hamas's capabilities but long term they have just made the situation worse. Hatred for Israel and support for Hamas in the region has grown and that will only end up with another situation like before. 

[hypochondriac]

15 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Short term they have reduced Hamas's capabilities but long term they have just made the situation worse. Hatred for Israel and support for Hamas in the region has grown and that will only end up with another situation like before. 

That's up for debate isn't it. What they have done is shown they won't accept another incident like the one in October and they've crippled Hamas' ability to respond for a good number of years I would have thought. If they use the opportunity to put a buffer zone around Israel then that will help as well. Hopefully they can also put something in place so that any future aid or money for Palestine is not syphoned off to Hamas abd actually goes to benefit the people. It's a disgraceful situation where fuel and resources were being repurposed to build tunnels and fund tools to harm the Israelis so that needs to stop. 

Edited March 8 by hypochondriac

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

They won't eliminate Hamas and they know it. They are just handing out revenge in the form of collective punishment of everyone in Gaza.

Source?

Because right now, option 2 looks pretty much spot on.

[egg]

7 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Source?

Because right now, option 2 looks pretty much spot on.

They didn't wipe out the PLO. Or if they did, they got Hamas as a replacement. Nobody can seriously believe that Hamas, or as a minimum it's cause and backers, will be eliminated by this. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

They didn't wipe out the PLO. Or if they did, they got Hamas as a replacement. Nobody can seriously believe that Hamas, or as a minimum it's cause and backers, will be eliminated by this. 

I think almost no one has suggested they will eliminate them. Not least because load of them don't actually live in Palestine. 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think almost no one has suggested they will eliminate them. Not least because load of them don't actually live in Palestine. 

Err, it's Israel's stated aim to eliminate Hamas. 

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

Short term they have reduced Hamas's capabilities but long term they have just made the situation worse. Hatred for Israel and support for Hamas in the region has grown and that will only end up with another situation like before. 

This is the point. You can kill people but you can’t kill an idea. As has been said many times, all Israel is doing is creating future generations of terrorists hellbent on revenge and alienating supporters. They are also making it more difficult to reach a future, peaceful settlement, but then Netanyahu has made it clear that he isn’t interested in that.

I have been following this on another (non football) forum. It is much more diverse than here (fewer middle aged white men) and it started off with a lot of support and sympathy for Israel. Over the last few months that has pretty much evaporated. There is no support for the Israelis at all now and it is all pro Palestinian. Ok, not a huge sample, but the same is happening on the international stage with more and more countries who initially supported Israel now backing off.

Netanyahu and his deeply unpleasant government have managed to take a situation where he held the high ground morally to one in which the actions of Hamas have become secondary to the destruction of Gaza and the massacre of tens of thousands of women, children and babies. When you are surrounded by potential enemies it makes absolutely no sense at all to go out of your way to create a situation where your future security could be compromised further.

Another child shot to death? What happened to taking care that innocent civilians aren’t harmed? This one was shot in the West Bank.

https://www.radiohc.cu/en/noticias/internacionales/349102-israeli-forces-kill-10-year-old-amr-al-najjar-in-west-bank

Edited March 8 by sadoldgit
Added text

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

Err, it's Israel's stated aim to eliminate Hamas. 

That may be the aim but no one believed that this war will wipe them out entirely. That would be impossible. 

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

This is the point. You can kill people but you can’t kill an idea. As has been said many times, all Israel is doing is creating future generations of terrorists hellbent on revenge and alienating supporters. They are also making it more difficult to reach a future, peaceful settlement, but then Netanyahu has made it clear that he isn’t interested in that.

I have been following this on another (non football) forum. It is much more diverse than here (fewer middle aged white men) and it started off with a lot of support and sympathy for Israel. Over the last few months that has pretty much evaporated. There is no support for the Israelis at all now and it is all pro Palestinian. Ok, not a huge sample, but the same is happening on the international stage with more and more countries who initially supported Israel now backing off.

Netanyahu and his deeply unpleasant government have managed to take a situation where he held the high ground morally to one in which the actions of Hamas have become secondary to the destruction of Gaza and the massacre of tens of thousands of women, children and babies. When you are surrounded by potential enemies it makes absolutely no sense at all to go out of your way to create a situation where your future security could be compromised further.

That's not all they are doing. They are also crippling Hamas for a long time. If the only thing they were doing is making Hamas stronger then yes this entire thing would be pointless but that's very clearly not the case. 

Is the other forum you visit the forum of the morning star? 

Edited March 8 by hypochondriac

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, egg said:

Why should Egypt absorb 2.3m people when the western world, the us included, can see that the logical solution is ceasefire and a Palestinian state. Do you support or oppose that? 

Soggy claimed they “had no means of escape”, that is clearly pony, they can escape through Egypt. Unless of course, their brother Arabs block that particular means of escape. 
 

The logical solution is for the Palestinian people to renounce Hamas & seek a peaceful settlement with the Israeli’s. As you know I was in Isreal at the beginning of Oct and the ordinary folks, particularly the youngsters, were as sick and tired of the constant fighting as everyone else. That all changed on 7/10, when it was that generation that was attacked at a festival. 7/10 set peace back a generation, I that’s down to Hamas & it’s cheerleaders in Gaza, nobody else. 

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

This is the point. You can kill people but you can’t kill an idea. As has been said many times, all Israel is doing is creating future generations of terrorists hellbent on revenge and alienating supporters. They are also making it more difficult to reach a future, peaceful settlement, but then Netanyahu has made it clear that he isn’t interested in that.

I have been following this on another (non football) forum. It is much more diverse than here (fewer middle aged white men) and it started off with a lot of support and sympathy for Israel. Over the last few months that has pretty much evaporated. There is no support for the Israelis at all now and it is all pro Palestinian. Ok, not a huge sample, but the same is happening on the international stage with more and more countries who initially supported Israel now backing off.

Netanyahu and his deeply unpleasant government have managed to take a situation where he held the high ground morally to one in which the actions of Hamas have become secondary to the destruction of Gaza and the massacre of tens of thousands of women, children and babies. When you are surrounded by potential enemies it makes absolutely no sense at all to go out of your way to create a situation where your future security could be compromised further.

How do you know? Have they got login names like YoungblackandTrans,  Chinese_Suzy24 and and Ravi_the_asian_millennial 

Can you post the link please? I'd like to see it. Im not at all surprised that you're posting on another forum where literally everyone has the same view as you. You do tend to find lots of people who completely share your opinion but funnily enough never on here.

Edited March 8 by Turkish

[egg]

11 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Soggy claimed they “had no means of escape”, that is clearly pony, they can escape through Egypt. Unless of course, their brother Arabs block that particular means of escape. 
 

The logical solution is for the Palestinian people to renounce Hamas & seek a peaceful settlement with the Israeli’s. As you know I was in Isreal at the beginning of Oct and the ordinary folks, particularly the youngsters, were as sick and tired of the constant fighting as everyone else. That all changed on 7/10, when it was that generation that was attacked at a festival. 7/10 set peace back a generation, I that’s down to Hamas & it’s cheerleaders in Gaza, nobody else. 

And there lies the problem - the belief that this mess is all as a consequence of 7/10. Of course, his episode in Gaza flows from that. What happened prior to that was mainly on Israel. What we're seeing in the west bank is on Israel. Many western governments have all but renounced this Israeli government but still they continue, seemingly cheered on by many. 

The solution does not lie exclusively with Hamas. You know that. 

 

[badgerx16]

16 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Soggy claimed they “had no means of escape”, that is clearly pony, they can escape through Egypt. Unless of course, their brother Arabs block that particular means of escape. 
 

The only border crossing between Egypt and Gaza is at Rafah, and that is effectively shut except for limited access for humanitarian supplies.

[egg]

20 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That may be the aim but no one believed that this war will wipe them out entirely. That would be impossible. 

 

From the off, their stated aim to eliminate Hams was never achievable.

I'm glad you now agree. 

 

[egg]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

The only border crossing between Egypt and Gaza is at Rafah, and that is effectively shut except for limited access for humanitarian supplies.

It will have been breached if they stormed Rafah. I think the US have fortunately done enough to rule that out. 

[Lighthouse]

19 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

This is the point. You can kill people but you can’t kill an idea. As has been said many times, all Israel is doing is creating future generations of terrorists hellbent on revenge and alienating supporters. They are also making it more difficult to reach a future, peaceful settlement, but then Netanyahu has made it clear that he isn’t interested in that.

I have been following this on another (non football) forum. It is much more diverse than here (fewer middle aged white men) and it started off with a lot of support and sympathy for Israel. Over the last few months that has pretty much evaporated. There is no support for the Israelis at all now and it is all pro Palestinian. Ok, not a huge sample, but the same is happening on the international stage with more and more countries who initially supported Israel now backing off.

Netanyahu and his deeply unpleasant government have managed to take a situation where he held the high ground morally to one in which the actions of Hamas have become secondary to the destruction of Gaza and the massacre of tens of thousands of women, children and babies. When you are surrounded by potential enemies it makes absolutely no sense at all to go out of your way to create a situation where your future security could be compromised further.

I can’t say I’ve seen any particular support for Israel, just people repeatedly trying to explain to you why the situation is the way it is, whilst you and others try and insist that things should be different.

Israel already has enough people ten times over who want the entire nation wiped off the face of the earth, just for existing. Just for being a Jewish state which exists on what they see as Arab land. This already includes the Iranian government trying to build nuclear warheads and ICBMs with ‘death to Israel’ written on the side. Saying, "they’re just going to create more terrorists," is pretty much a moot point to them, it’s of no consequence. This whole angle of ‘it’s actually in Israel’s best interests to do the thing that I want them to do’ is not altogether that convincing. 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

 

From the off, their stated aim to eliminate Hams was never achievable.

I'm glad you now agree. 

 

They will succeed in their aim to cripple Hamas for a generation and possible permanently prevent a similar attack like October depending upon how this us resolved which is infinitely preferable to the alternative. My view has not changed on this so I don't agree with anything that I didn't previously believe in October. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I can’t say I’ve seen any particular support for Israel, just people repeatedly trying to explain to you why the situation is the way it is, whilst you and others try and insist that things should be different.

Israel already has enough people ten times over who want the entire nation wiped off the face of the earth, just for existing. Just for being a Jewish state which exists on what they see as Arab land. This already includes the Iranian government trying to build nuclear warheads and ICBMs with ‘death to Israel’ written on the side. Saying, "they’re just going to create more terrorists," is pretty much a moot point to them, it’s of no consequence. This whole angle of ‘it’s actually in Israel’s best interests to do the thing that I want them to do’ is not altogether that convincing. 

Do you honestly believe that Iran want a nuclear weapon to eliminate Israel? If so, do you really think that they would be stupid enough to use it? Iran want a nuclear deterrent for the same reason as us, Russia, the US France, North Korea, etc. Why are they felt more likely to use a nuke than anyone else?

It's one thing wanting a nation not to exist, it's a hell of a stretch to suggest that a nation would allow itself to be destroyed to take out another. 

On the wider issue, your belief is that your belief is the right one. It sure ain't universally held, and I suspect isn't the widespread view in this country.

This forum ain't a reliable barometer for sensible opinion. 

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Do you honestly believe that Iran want a nuclear weapon to eliminate Israel?

Yep.

2 minutes ago, egg said:

If so, do you really think that they would be stupid enough to use it?

Yep.

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Iran want a nuclear deterrent for the same reason as us, Russia, the US France, North Korea, etc.

Nope.

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Why are they felt more likely to use a nuke than anyone else?

They’re Islamist nutters.

3 minutes ago, egg said:

It's one thing wanting a nation not to exist, it's a hell of a stretch to suggest that a nation would allow itself to be destroyed to take out another

You’re doing the whole, "they must think like a western, liberal democracy," thing again.

4 minutes ago, egg said:

On the wider issue, your belief is that your belief is the right one. It sure ain't universally held, and I suspect isn't the widespread view in this country.

I don’t have a belief on this, other than the stated fact that this is a centuries old religious grievance, with two tribes fighting over the same land. I don’t support one any more than the other. Israel is winning because their military is really good and Hamas’ is crap. If it was the other way around life would be just as bad, if not worse, for the Israelis.

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

Do you honestly believe that Iran want a nuclear weapon to eliminate Israel? If so, do you really think that they would be stupid enough to use it? Iran want a nuclear deterrent for the same reason as us, Russia, the US France, North Korea, etc. Why are they felt more likely to use a nuke than anyone else?

It's one thing wanting a nation not to exist, it's a hell of a stretch to suggest that a nation would allow itself to be destroyed to take out another. 

On the wider issue, your belief is that your belief is the right one. It sure ain't universally held, and I suspect isn't the widespread view in this country.

This forum ain't a reliable barometer for sensible opinion. 

I'm not sure that relying on the views of an average member of the British public to lend your opinion credibility is the wisest move. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

Yep.

Yep.

Nope.

They’re Islamist nutters.

You’re doing the whole, "they must think like a western, liberal democracy," thing again.

I don’t have a belief on this, other than the stated fact that this is a centuries old religious grievance, with two tribes fighting over the same land. I don’t support one any more than the other. Israel is winning because their military is really good and Hamas’ is crap. If it was the other way around life would be just as bad, if not worse, for the Israelis.

We got there quicker than I thought. They're more likely to use a nuke cos they're Muslim. What a reasonably thought out reason that is. 

On the wider issue, this isn't religious per se. Sure, there are historical claims, but the religious aspect in recent times was the western desire to create a Jewish state hot on the heels of WW2. Since then it's been about resistance, occupation, punishment, reprisals, repeat. 

[inspectorfrost]

On 04/03/2024 at 17:55, hypochondriac said:

Have said that for months. No one can articulate what this peace will look like. I assume they mean Israel just stop and let Hamas go back to plotting to parachute into Jerusalem and rape and murder them. Clearly the current Israeli campaign is to send a message like Lighthouse said but also to critically wound or kill Hamas' capability to threaten Israel in the medium to long term. I reckon they'll have a pretty decent chance of doing so. 

Hamas' leadership currently live in complete safety in Qatar

Israel have been putting the needle in for decades (extremist settler violence, illegal settlement expansion) which actually led to Hamas's creation in the first place in the 80s.

The 7/10 attacks were a calculated and carefully planned escalation in the existing conflict, and were carried out with significant external logistical and military support. It was sophisticated, deliberately brutal and was helped by levels of military intelligence which dwarfed anything that Israel anticipated.

The whole idea was to provoke this response from Israel.

The US are trying (and failing) to reign in the Israelis because support for Hamas has surged since Israel responded to the 7/10 attacks, a group that not long ago was making rockets out of drain pipes and fertilizer.

The problem is going way beyond Gaza and Hamas.

 

 

 

 

[inspectorfrost]

27 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Yep.

Yep.

Nope.

They’re Islamist nutters.

You’re doing the whole, "they must think like a western, liberal democracy," thing again.

I don’t have a belief on this, other than the stated fact that this is a centuries old religious grievance, with two tribes fighting over the same land. I don’t support one any more than the other. Israel is winning because their military is really good and Hamas’ is crap. If it was the other way around life would be just as bad, if not worse, for the Israelis.

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, inspectorfrost said:

Hamas' leadership currently live in complete safety in Qatar

Israel have been putting the needle in for decades (extremist settler violence, illegal settlement expansion) which actually led to Hamas's creation in the first place in the 80s.

The 7/10 attacks were a calculated and carefully planned escalation in the existing conflict, and were carried out with significant external logistical and military support. It was sophisticated, deliberately brutal and was helped by levels of military intelligence which dwarfed anything that Israel anticipated.

The whole idea was to provoke this response from Israel.

The US are trying (and failing) to reign in the Israelis because support for Hamas has surged since Israel responded to the 7/10 attacks, a group that not long ago was making rockets out of drain pipes and fertilizer.

The problem is going way beyond Gaza and Hamas.

 

 

 

 

I know it goes beyond Hamas. I don't believe that Hamas would have predicted this scale of response from the Israelis though. The alternative from Israel would have been to not respond which is completely unrealistic whilst Hamas held hostages. 

[whelk]

How many laughing emojis are the Hamas boys sending to each other these days? “Hey mum you won’t believe how many Jews I killed today with my bare hands”. Is it now “really sad how you have no home and half your family are now dead…..hey that was me mum”

Edited March 8 by whelk

[aintforever]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I know it goes beyond Hamas. I don't believe that Hamas would have predicted this scale of response from the Israelis though. The alternative from Israel would have been to not respond which is completely unrealistic whilst Hamas held hostages. 

It’s not that black and white though is it, one alternative would be to respond with a degree of concern for the welfare of the innocent people in Gaza. Maybe let them have water, food and medical supplies.

What is going on there now is medieval. You have kids who have been bombed having their limbs amputated without anaesthetic or even pain relief. Women giving birth via C section under the same conditions. Kids staving to death.

Edited March 8 by aintforever

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

How many laughing emojis are the Hamas boys sending to each other these days? “Hey mum you won’t believe how many Jews I killed today with my bare hands”. Is it now “really sad how you have no home and half your family are now dead…..hey that was me mum”

Yep. I wonder if they predicted this - doubt it - and if they privately regret their actions given the horrors they have caused. Probably think it's Allah's will or some such bollocks. 

[Lighthouse]

31 minutes ago, egg said:

We got there quicker than I thought. They're more likely to use a nuke cos they're Muslim. What a reasonably thought out reason that is. 

I don’t know what to say to that, I genuinely can’t get my head around such an astonishing amount of denial. This is a country with the death penalty for gays, blasphemy and women who refuse to cover their hair and obey the commands of their masters. The state will willingly execute their own citizens for all manner of trivial misdemeanours. Fellow Muslims in their own country, who just aren’t quite Muslim enough and in the correct way. And you think it’s completely unfathomable that they’d want to wipe out the so called ‘sub-human scum, occupiers of god-given Arab land’?

[egg]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I don’t know what to say to that, I genuinely can’t get my head around such an astonishing amount of denial. This is a country with the death penalty for gays, blasphemy and women who refuse to cover their hair and obey the commands of their masters. The state will willingly execute their own citizens for all manner of trivial misdemeanours. Fellow Muslims in their own country, who just aren’t quite Muslim enough and in the correct way. And you think it’s completely unfathomable that they’d want to wipe out the so called ‘sub-human scum, occupiers of god-given Arab land’?

The suggestion that because they have a strict interpretation of Sharia law means that they'll wipe out Israel even if it means mutual destruction, is  as absurd an opinion as I've seen on this thread. Absolutely bonkers. 

[Weston Super Saint]

8 hours ago, egg said:

The suggestion that because they have a strict interpretation of Sharia law means that they'll wipe out Israel even if it means mutual destruction, is  as absurd an opinion as I've seen on this thread. Absolutely bonkers. 

I'm not sure you've truly grasped the full lunacy of strict Sharia law.

Maybe re-visit the Hamas charter for a better understanding of their viewpoint : Link to translation of 1988 charter

Their view of Israel is pretty clear :

Quote

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

Do you honestly believe that if Hamas had the means to 'obliterate' Israel then it wouldn't use it?

Mutual destruction is a 'Western' concept derived from valuing life and is completely irrelevant.  In Sharia law, Allah's will overrides the right of individuals, so if it is deemed 'Allah's will' by the Hamas leaders living hundreds or thousands of miles away, then the 'footsoldiers' will be sacrificed and will become martyrs.  The belief in an eternal afterlife living in bliss far outweighs the value of living in the mortal realm.

The instruction seems pretty clear :

Quote

Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be.

As for the border with Egypt being closed, I guess they have a valid reason as it's not just Israel that Hamas have a 'beef' with :

Quote

Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.

As for peace, well they've got that covered to :

Quote

[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.

Unfortuantely, too many people think this will be resolved by applying Western morals and values which simply don't exist in strict Sharia law.

[Turkish]

8 hours ago, egg said:

The suggestion that because they have a strict interpretation of Sharia law means that they'll wipe out Israel even if it means mutual destruction, is  as absurd an opinion as I've seen on this thread. Absolutely bonkers. 

Considering parts of sharia law is that criticising or denying parts of the Quran, Mohammed or Allah is punishable by death, which by being a non believer could be considered this and dying as Muslim fighting unbelievers means you die as martyr and get rewarded for this it isn’t actually bonkers at all.  

[CB Fry]

8 hours ago, egg said:

The suggestion that because they have a strict interpretation of Sharia law means that they'll wipe out Israel even if it means mutual destruction, is  as absurd an opinion as I've seen on this thread. Absolutely bonkers. 

Let me know when you find out about suicide bombers.

[whelk]

47 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Let me know when you find out about suicide bombers.

Most of them are Methodists angry at the relaxing of Sunday trading laws

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Unfortuantely, too many people think this will be resolved by applying Western morals and values which simply don't exist in strict Sharia law.

If only they could be less Jewish and talk peace we wouldn’t butcher their festival goers. Actually we probably still would

Edited March 9 by whelk

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I'm not sure you've truly grasped the full lunacy of strict Sharia law.

Maybe re-visit the Hamas charter for a better understanding of their viewpoint : Link to translation of 1988 charter

Their view of Israel is pretty clear :

Do you honestly believe that if Hamas had the means to 'obliterate' Israel then it wouldn't use it?

Mutual destruction is a 'Western' concept derived from valuing life and is completely irrelevant.  In Sharia law, Allah's will overrides the right of individuals, so if it is deemed 'Allah's will' by the Hamas leaders living hundreds or thousands of miles away, then the 'footsoldiers' will be sacrificed and will become martyrs.  The belief in an eternal afterlife living in bliss far outweighs the value of living in the mortal realm.

The instruction seems pretty clear :

As for the border with Egypt being closed, I guess they have a valid reason as it's not just Israel that Hamas have a 'beef' with :

As for peace, well they've got that covered to :

Unfortuantely, too many people think this will be resolved by applying Western morals and values which simply don't exist in strict Sharia law.

Impressive Saturday morning research Weston

[Lighthouse]

10 hours ago, egg said:

The suggestion that because they have a strict interpretation of Sharia law means that they'll wipe out Israel even if it means mutual destruction, is  as absurd an opinion as I've seen on this thread. Absolutely bonkers. 

So in summary…

Iran: Death to Israel!!!!
Me: I think they want death to Israel.

You: You’re absolutely bonkers.

[egg]

32 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

So in summary…

Iran: Death to Israel!!!!
Me: I think they want death to Israel.

You: You’re absolutely bonkers.

In summary: 

You: 'They're Islamist nutters'

You: They kill gay people in accordance with their interpretation of Islam.

You: Cos of that they want to destroy Israel, and as a consequence see the destruction of their country and people.

Me: You're absolutely bonkers, and clearly don't have much time for Islam or Islamists. 

 

[egg]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Considering parts of sharia law is that criticising or denying parts of the Quran, Mohammed or Allah is punishable by death, which by being a non believer could be considered this and dying as Muslim fighting unbelievers means you die as martyr and get rewarded for this it isn’t actually bonkers at all.  

That's a more sensible and credible explanation Del than some of that above, but martyrdom of the whole country and it's people would be the impact of a nuclear attack by Iran on Israel. Lighthouse's opinion that the Iranian interpretation and enforcement of sharia on the ground is evidence that they'd risk their entire nation to destroy Israel is one that I find ridiculous.

Iran, like anyone else with a nuke, want a nuclear deterrent. That works - nobody will now attack North Korea, and the west back off from Russia .

Iran are plainly a future Iraq/Afghanistan, but with a nuke, they have guaranteed safety albeit with a lifetime of sanctions for not doing as they're told. 

[whelk]

10 minutes ago, egg said:

and clearly don't have much time for Islam or Islamists 

I will go out on a limb and say I don’t have much time for Islamists

 

 

 

Edited March 9 by whelk

[egg]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I'm not sure you've truly grasped the full lunacy of strict Sharia law.

Maybe re-visit the Hamas charter for a better understanding of their viewpoint : Link to translation of 1988 charter

Their view of Israel is pretty clear :

Do you honestly believe that if Hamas had the means to 'obliterate' Israel then it wouldn't use it?

Mutual destruction is a 'Western' concept derived from valuing life and is completely irrelevant.  In Sharia law, Allah's will overrides the right of individuals, so if it is deemed 'Allah's will' by the Hamas leaders living hundreds or thousands of miles away, then the 'footsoldiers' will be sacrificed and will become martyrs.  The belief in an eternal afterlife living in bliss far outweighs the value of living in the mortal realm.

The instruction seems pretty clear :

As for the border with Egypt being closed, I guess they have a valid reason as it's not just Israel that Hamas have a 'beef' with :

As for peace, well they've got that covered to :

Unfortuantely, too many people think this will be resolved by applying Western morals and values which simply don't exist in strict Sharia law.

Alternatively, you could read the charter and interpret it correctly as was covered way up there ^^^^

[egg]

Just now, whelk said:

I will go out on a limb and say I don’t have much time for Islamist

 

 

 

I don't have much time for any organised religion Whelk, and as much as I don't like the Iranian (and Saudi, etc) interpretation and enforcement of it, it doesn't lead me to conclude that they're 'islamist nutters' (blatantly islamaphobic comment btw - I suspect describing the Israeli's as 'jewish nutters' may raise an eyebrow) likely to nuke another state and cause their own destruction. 

[egg]

2 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Let me know when you find out about suicide bombers.

Ha!! A wee bit different to leaving your own country open to complete destruction though CB. It's the lurch from one to the other that I can't agree with. 

 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Ha!! A wee bit different to leaving your own country open to complete destruction though CB. It's the lurch from one to the other that I can't agree with. 

 

How is it not the exact same mindset but on a larger scale? 

[Lighthouse]

I’ll admit to not being the best person at picking up nuance and subtle hints, but if I came home from work and the GF had built a scud missile with, “die Lighthouse scumbag c**t!” Written on the side, I’d probably say, “you’re mad at me, aren’t you princess?”

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, whelk said:

If only they could be less Jewish and talk peace we wouldn’t butcher their festival goers. Actually we probably still would

This is actually the whole point. All these people talk about how outrageous the Israeli actions are, the whole point is in an alternate reality where they had acted exactly as their detractors would have wanted them to, Hamas woukd have seized any opportunity they could get to do it again and worse if they got the opportunity. Let's not forget also that these people were voted for by the population of Gaza. They wouldn't see so called Israeli tolerance in this situation as something to be grateful for, they'd view it as a weakness that they can exploit to cause more death and destruction.