Israel

[badgerx16]

UN schools and medical facilities in Gaza being bombed by the Israeli air force, despite all having known geo-located positions.

[Fan The Flames]

17 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

It is a standard that most major news media outlets try to follow, so that they are seen as being impartial. People being interviewed by them can use the term "terrorist", but journalists will usually try to avoid it - preferring such terms as "militants" or "fighters".

For some this is just another stick to bash the BBC with.

Brexit, partygate, coronavirus, this; ITV take the same position (or in the case of partygate a more anti-government position) but are not criticised at all, now that's double standards.

[whelk]

5 hours ago, benjii said:

I would also point out that post 7/7 the UK government didn't bomb Leeds, Leicester and Bradford.

Come on you are smarter than that

[whelk]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

For some this is just another stick to bash the BBC with

Exactly. Quite pathetic how some want to stir up over something so stupid to promote their agenda as opposed to reporting on actual news

[whelk]

5 hours ago, benjii said:

The people of Gaza weren't being bombed because Netanyahu has tried to cosy up to Hamas to cause a split in alliance between the Gaza leadership and the West Bank. Certain Israelis think this is why such a huge defence failure occurred at the weekend - Netanyahu didn't think it would happen.

Putting Gaza aside, the reason there can never now be a clear two state solution is because of the Israeli government's support and encouragement of Jewish settlement in the West Bank and ensuring that Palestinian settlements are contained in ever shrinking enclaves without any hope of effective collective governance or statehood.

Whether the above is justified or not is a matter of opinion but it is a policy clearly designed to eliminate the prospect of having to concede a proper Palestinian state on the land.

It's a complete mess now with little chance of permanent solution in the absence of a pretty comprehensive genocide, but that would likely cause further escalation.

I would also point out that post 7/7 the UK government didn't bomb Leeds, Leicester and Bradford.

 

Edit: Bernie Sanders has summed it up pretty well

 

Sanders is often worth listening to although Biden echoed same thoughts.

they can see where this is going. Won’t be any talk of babies throats slit in kibbutzes soon and will all be about inhumane suffering of Gaza innocents. Suspect Netanyahu and most Israeli’s won’t care about international condemnation though as they need to protect themselves at all costs and fear further attacks. War brings this out in nations. 

[Fan The Flames]

With Egypt claiming they warned Israel, how long before the conspiracy theories start.

[Sheaf Saint]

7 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

With Egypt claiming they warned Israel, how long before the conspiracy theories start.

I don't regularly use Twitter anymore but I would be amazed if they didn't already start on the day of the attack.

[revolution saint]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Sanders is often worth listening to although Biden echoed same thoughts.

they can see where this is going. Won’t be any talk of babies throats slit in kibbutzes soon and will all be about inhumane suffering of Gaza innocents. Suspect Netanyahu and most Israeli’s won’t care about international condemnation though as they need to protect themselves at all costs and fear further attacks. War brings this out in nations. 

Not sure that's actually been verified has it?  Only reason I mention it is because there seems to be a lot of stories like this that ultimately turn out to be false.  I remember in the first gulf war when Iraq invaded Kuwait and there were accounts of Iraqi soldiers going into hospitals and ripping babies from incubators.  I think that story was planted by the daughter of a Canadian diplomat who was working for a PR company.  Loads of similar accounts circulated by the Creel commission in WW1 too.

That's not to say that Hamas hasn't committed an incredible amount of verified atrocities so I'm not trying to downplay anything, just might be worth holding fire (no pun intended) on quoting that example.

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

It is a standard that most major news media outlets try to follow, so that they are seen as being impartial. People being interviewed by them can use the term "terrorist", but journalists will usually try to avoid it - preferring such terms as "militants" or "fighters".

Unfortunately that's a bit hard for some on here to understand.

[sadoldgit]

14 hours ago, whelk said:

SOG has no idea who the enemy of the west is. Beautiful sentiment from Mr Lovely, I love every one especially Arabs. Less keen on Jews though.

 

You are sounding more like Turkish everyday but well done for taking someone’s position and changing it to suit your own agenda. I will say it one more time. I don’t condone the killing of innocents by both sides. The situation is incredibly complex and I am not taking a “side”. I believe that both “sides” have the right to exist and should make greater efforts to learn to live alongside each other.

You chose to twist this and make out that it is somehow anti-Semitic and that, somehow I have more sympathy for murdered Palestinians than I have for murdered Jews. You are wrong and deluded. It is exactly what people with your blinkered view do to Corbyn. The bloke couldn’t be more of a pacifist and calls out terrorist acts whoever carry them out. But because he believes that the conflict here is being made worse by the Israeli government’s treatment of the Palestinians that makes him an anti-Semite. No doubt those who have taken the decision not to light up the Wembley arch tomorrow with the Israeli flag will also be labelled anti-Semites in your black and white world.

If you want to play this game it works both ways and your Islamophobia and hatred of Muslims is showing in your posts. 
 

Mr Lovely? What an absolutely stupid thing to say. Why would you take the piss out of those trying to show some kind of humanity in an inhuman situation?

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Mr Lovely? What an absolutely stupid thing to say. Why would you take the piss out of those trying to show some kind of humanity in an inhuman situation?

Virtue signalling?

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

11 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

No double standrds in your little scenario, becaue the BBC don't call anyone terrorists. Or did you really think it was just Hamas they wouldn't call it.

 

[Turkish]

14 hours ago, aintforever said:

Or you can be gay, not support their laws but still not like the way Israel has treated Palestine.

what about supporting a group that has beheaded babies?

[Fan The Flames]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67083432

LD, they are not telling you what to think, but leaving you to make up you mind. Or do you need to be told what to think?

Edited 12 October, 2023 by Fan The Flames

[Fan The Flames]

7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

what about supporting a group that has beheaded babies?

Again you can want a peaceful existence for Palestine and be digusted by the acts of Palestinian terrorists.

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Again you can want a peaceful existence for Palestine and be digusted by the acts of Palestinian terrorists.

I think everyone wants peace for all sides unless you are some sort of twat. 
Just taking a sanctimonious position of wanting peace isn’t really an option at the moment unfortunately. Hence my dig at SOG who thinks he is showing humanity unlike others. 
 

[Fan The Flames]

9 minutes ago, whelk said:

I think everyone wants peace for all sides unless you are some sort of twat. 
Just taking a sanctimonious position of wanting peace isn’t really an option at the moment unfortunately. Hence my dig at SOG who thinks he is showing humanity unlike others. 

Of course wanting peace remains an option. What's the alternative, resorting to carnage. That will only make peace harder to achieve. What can our governments do apart from trying to be calming external voices. That wasn't even my point.

My point was obvious, demonising a whole race because of some vile cunts won't help. 

[whelk]

56 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

You are wrong and deluded. It is exactly what people with your blinkered view do to Corbyn. The bloke couldn’t be more of a pacifist and calls out terrorist acts whoever carry them out. 

You do realise that Jews now say Labour is no longer antisemitic. All in their imagination was it? You are more qualified to pass judgement on this subject are you? Your previous posts indicate you have a massive blind spot.

FYI

Edited 12 October, 2023 by whelk

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Of course wanting peace remains an option. What's the alternative, resorting to carnage. That will only make peace harder to achieve. What can our governments do apart from trying to be calming external voices. That wasn't even my point.

My point was obvious, demonising a whole race because of some vile cunts won't help. 

Although I used your quote It wasn’t a direct response to you.

So what would be your expected peaceful response from Israel to these Hamas atrocities?

[whelk]

1 hour ago, revolution saint said:

Not sure that's actually been verified has it?  Only reason I mention it is because there seems to be a lot of stories like this that ultimately turn out to be false.  I remember in the first gulf war when Iraq invaded Kuwait and there were accounts of Iraqi soldiers going into hospitals and ripping babies from incubators.  I think that story was planted by the daughter of a Canadian diplomat who was working for a PR company.  Loads of similar accounts circulated by the Creel commission in WW1 too.

That's not to say that Hamas hasn't committed an incredible amount of verified atrocities so I'm not trying to downplay anything, just might be worth holding fire (no pun intended) on quoting that example.

I haven’t seen  any verification but by all accounts they wiped out that kibbutz barbarically. I said there will no longer be talk not saying that particular reference needs to be used to condemn these cunts

[Lord Duckhunter]

43 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67083432

LD, they are not telling you what to think, but leaving you to make up you mind. Or do you need to be told what to think?

Simpson is full of shit. I’ve posted examples of the BBC naming various groups as terrorists, so it’s not true they never call anyone by that name.
 

And Simpson himself called the Charlie Hebdo murderers terrorists as well as the “ militant “ the Millwall bloke done on London Bridge. 
 

Other than that, good point well made. 
 

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Unfortunately that's a bit hard for some on here to understand.

Yes, it is a bit hard to understand. Probably because it’s not true. 

[badgerx16]

When Hamas kills a baby it is terrorism, when Russia bombs a nursery that is terrorism, when Israel bombs a maternity ward that is self defence.

Have I got that right ?

[aintforever]

55 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Yes, it is a bit hard to understand. Probably because it’s not true. 

I don't get what you are wetting your pants about, the BBC could easily describe Israel's actions as terrorism/genocide but they don't. I Listen to Radio 5 a lot and they have constantly described Hamas as a designated terrorist group and had people call them terrorists all the time in their interviews. It's obvious why they try to avoid using the word themselves in broadcasting news.

[whelk]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

When Hamas kills a baby it is terrorism, when Russia bombs a nursery that is terrorism, when Israel bombs a maternity ward that is self defence.

Have I got that right ?

No try harder

[badgerx16]

16 minutes ago, whelk said:

No try harder

OK; when Israel bombs a maternity ward it is unfortunate collateral damage ?

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Again you can want a peaceful existence for Palestine and be digusted by the acts of Palestinian terrorists.

yes you can you're right. But is just supporting one side going to bring that about?

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

yes you can you're right. But is just supporting one side going to bring that about?

Ask Cruella, who says it is OK to fly Israeli flags but may be criminal incitement to show a Palestinian one.

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Although I used your quote It wasn’t a direct response to you.

So what would be your expected peaceful response from Israel to these Hamas atrocities?

Atrocities have to be dealt with proportionately, I have no problem with that. We know that there will be people getting what they deserve, but there will also be plenty of people getting what they don't deserve. And the cycle continues.

I wasn't talking about the Israeli responce, but of the other influential voices and it is more useful it they stay calm. There are enough religious nutter countries doing the opposite.

[Fan The Flames]

6 minutes ago, Turkish said:

yes you can you're right. But is just supporting one side going to bring that about?

No I agree, that has been part of the problem. The left and the right pick sides and turn things into binary choices that isn't helpful.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

No I agree, that has been part of the problem. The left and the right pick sides and turn things into binary choices that isn't helpful.

correct. 

[Turkish]

3 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

You are sounding more like Turkish everyday but well done for taking someone’s position and changing it to suit your own agenda. I will say it one more time. I don’t condone the killing of innocents by both sides. The situation is incredibly complex and I am not taking a “side”. I believe that both “sides” have the right to exist and should make greater efforts to learn to live alongside each other.

You chose to twist this and make out that it is somehow anti-Semitic and that, somehow I have more sympathy for murdered Palestinians than I have for murdered Jews. You are wrong and deluded. It is exactly what people with your blinkered view do to Corbyn. The bloke couldn’t be more of a pacifist and calls out terrorist acts whoever carry them out. But because he believes that the conflict here is being made worse by the Israeli government’s treatment of the Palestinians that makes him an anti-Semite. No doubt those who have taken the decision not to light up the Wembley arch tomorrow with the Israeli flag will also be labelled anti-Semites in your black and white world.

If you want to play this game it works both ways and your Islamophobia and hatred of Muslims is showing in your posts. 
 

Mr Lovely? What an absolutely stupid thing to say. Why would you take the piss out of those trying to show some kind of humanity in an inhuman situation?

Nice name drop Mr obsessed.

Point 2 - like when he called Hamas his friends?

[Guided Missile]

Tragic as it may appear, eventually it will turn out to be "Might is Right". In the long term the pain will recede and memories fade, I'm so glad we have no skin in the game. Realising how lucky we are to live in the UK may be the only good to come out of this.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

Atrocities have to be dealt with proportionately, I have no problem with that. 

So what would you call proportionately, how do you think Isreal should have acted? 
 

Asked the UN to pass a resolution maybe. Perhaps negotiate with the “militants” & kindly ask them to hand over the perpetrators so they could be put on trial in Israel.
 

What do you consider proportionate and what action do you think Isreal should have taken to maintain the delicate “peace” that existed in the area last Friday. 
 

 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Nice name drop Mr obsessed.

Point 2 - like when he called Hamas his friends?

still ok to pick me up for the Tommy Robinson rally?

[Fan The Flames]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So what would you call proportionately, how do you think Isreal should have acted? 
 

Asked the UN to pass a resolution maybe. Perhaps negotiate with the “militants” & kindly ask them to hand over the perpetrators so they could be put on trial in Israel.
 

What do you consider proportionate and what action do you think Isreal should have taken to maintain the delicate “peace” that existed in the area last Friday. 

Why ask me a question and then give a sarcastic answer yourself, why do you get so aggressive in every discussion, whether it is this, brexit, politics, football. Your certainty on every subject is tiresome.

Do you think there is a good side and a bad side in the whole Israel/Palestine issue?

[egg]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So what would you call proportionately, how do you think Isreal should have acted? 
 

Asked the UN to pass a resolution maybe. Perhaps negotiate with the “militants” & kindly ask them to hand over the perpetrators so they could be put on trial in Israel.
 

What do you consider proportionate and what action do you think Isreal should have taken to maintain the delicate “peace” that existed in the area last Friday. 
 

 

Do you think that flattening Gaza, destroying mosques, homes, businesses, a university, etc, killing and maiming thousands of innocent civilians is a proportional response?

Do you think it'll get the hostages back?

Is depriving 2.3m people of fuel, energy and water until 150 hostages are returned a reasonable action? If the latter was the Israeli tactic, why flatten the country as well? 

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the action in Gaza has nothing to do with eradication of Hamas - this will just breed Hamas support , and it's ideology. It's about levelling Gaza, and Netanyahu is delivering on his promise to turn Gaza into a "deserted island of rubble". 

It's a wholly disproportionate response.  

[egg]

4 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Ask Cruella, who says it is OK to fly Israeli flags but may be criminal incitement to show a Palestinian one.

Seems that she's made a unilateral decision that the Palestinian flag is now the Hamas flag. Tad daft of her. 

[sadoldgit]

6 hours ago, whelk said:

You do realise that Jews now say Labour is no longer antisemitic. All in their imagination was it? You are more qualified to pass judgement on this subject are you? Your previous posts indicate you have a massive blind spot.

FYI

That is because Starmer has

been bending over backwards to bury the slur that was driven by the right wing media. Where was the outrage against the Islamophobia from the Tories?

I have been critical of the way that Corbyn dealt, or didnt deal, with the claims of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. I have also made the point that support for Palestinians is usually followed by claims of anti-Semitism. How much is deflection and how much is actual anti-Semitism, who knows?

He said that “all attacks are wrong”. How has that been interpreted to mean that he excludes the Hamas attack in that statement?

As for the barbaric murders of women, children and babies, in what world is it somehow seen as less bad to butcher them by high explosives than guns and knives?

While people keep taking sides it will continue and escalate. World leaders should be calling for cool heads and peace. There has rightly been condemnation of the Hamas attacks but the retaliatory murder of innocents in Gaza should also be condemned. Starmer made a big deal about standing with Israel but ducked the issue of their breaking international law by cutting off power and supplies to innocent civilians in Gaza. As one person put it today, a hospital without electricity is a morgue.

[egg]

7 hours ago, Turkish said:

what about supporting a group that has beheaded babies?

Palestine did not behead babies. That was Hamas.

Is bombing families in their homes really any better? Feels like a different type of evil to me. 

[Toadhall Saint]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Palestine did not behead babies. That was Hamas.

Is bombing families in their homes really any better? Feels like a different type of evil to me. 

Sounds like the absolute definition of state terrorism to me.

[inspectorfrost]

19 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s not just the Government though is it? Kier Starmer has called for the BBC to call them terrorists.
 

One thing for sure had Jewish citizens attacked Muslims at a music festival, dragged them back to Isreal after raping them, murdering their babies and the elderly, you and The BBC would damn we’ll call them terrorists.
 

And you’re the one preaching about “double standards” in the media? 

Starmer just has an upcoming election coming up which he's never had a better chance of winning.

There's no doubt Hamas' attack took place and god knows how many Israelis died but if you follow up on some of the claims the BBC had in size 72 letters on their website  the current articles now don't exactly give a ringing endorsement to their truth. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Israeli+babies+beheaded#ip=1

Let's take another war, if you google 'BBC azov battalion' the first two video links you get (or I got) are a 2022 report about Putin's untruths about Nazis in Ukraine, and the second is a 2014 report investigating the growing threat of neo-Nazis in Ukraine and their links with the Ukrainian government. Google it.

Who knows what the truths of wars are? The one thing you can guarantee is that all news coverage of it will be riddled with political interference based on economic interest. News is not reality, it's an artificial construction designed to represent the truth. What's reported in our media is no different.

[Lord Duckhunter]

52 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Why ask me a question and then give a sarcastic answer yourself, why do you get so aggressive in every discussion, whether it is this, brexit, politics, football. Your certainty on every subject is tiresome.

Do you think there is a good side and a bad side in the whole Israel/Palestine issue?

 

26 minutes ago, egg said:

Do you think that flattening Gaza, destroying mosques, homes, businesses, a university, etc, killing and maiming thousands of innocent civilians is a proportional response?

Do you think it'll get the hostages back?

Is depriving 2.3m people of fuel, energy and water until 150 hostages are returned a reasonable action? If the latter was the Israeli tactic, why flatten the country as well? 

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the action in Gaza has nothing to do with eradication of Hamas - this will just breed Hamas support , and it's ideology. It's about levelling Gaza, and Netanyahu is delivering on his promise to turn Gaza into a "deserted island of rubble". 

It's a wholly disproportionate response.  

So what proportional action should Isreal have taken. 
 

I keep reading about the response being disproportionate, so what was a proportional response? 
 

Nobody saying Isreal acted disproportionately has answered that. 
 

 

Edited 12 October, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[badgerx16]

7 hours ago, Turkish said:

what about supporting a group that has beheaded babies?

What about supporting a country whose air force has reportedly killed 450 children in air raids, ( and counting ), in the last 3 days ?

Not all inhabitants of Gaza support Hamas, yet all suffer the Israeli attacks. Responding to terrorism with terrorism will not solve the problem.

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Responding to terrorism with terrorism will not solve the problem.

So what should Isreal have done after Saturday’s  attacks? 

Edited 12 October, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[Turkish]

32 minutes ago, egg said:

Palestine did not behead babies. That was Hamas.

Is bombing families in their homes really any better? Feels like a different type of evil to me. 

Never said it was, in fact if you look at my posts on this thread it's pretty clear i'm on neither side and not defending any actions. I am talking about gays waving pro-Palestine flags, not my view.

Edited 12 October, 2023 by Turkish

[Turkish]

12 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

What about supporting a country whose air force has reportedly killed 450 children in air raids, ( and counting ), in the last 3 days ?

Not all inhabitants of Gaza support Hamas, yet all suffer the Israeli attacks. Responding to terrorism with terrorism will not solve the problem.

See above. I was obviously talking about gay people waving flags supporting Palestine. Not my views.

Edited 12 October, 2023 by Turkish

[badgerx16]

18 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So what should Isreal have done after Saturday’s  attacks? 

Find a 'smarter' way to target Hamas such that they can more easily demonstrate that they are taking seriously the limitation of collateral damage ? They have some of the most advanced weapons systems in the World, and in theory they have one of the most sophisticated intelligence agencies. Going in like a bull in a china shop and stating their intention to turn the Strip into a wasteland of rubble looks like they are throwing their weight around because, in truth, they are embarrassed by the failure of said intelligence service to detect the upcoming attacks, and of the control systems along the border to prevent them.

Alternatively, find a way for Mossad or somebody related to get at the Hamas leadrership in the Arabian Gulf - cut the head off the snake.

 

( I'm sure that somewhere out on the Web there will be conspiracy theories being proposed that Netanyahu knew the attacks were coming and, in fact, let them go ahead because he could then claim justification to unleash the full power at his disposal to acheive something he has long espoused ).

Edited 12 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[revolution saint]

29 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So what should Isreal have done after Saturday’s  attacks? 

You keep asking this. Proportionate response would be to target Hamas not level Gaza, displace 300,000 people and deny them power, food and water. If you think that the current actions by Israel are proportionate and fair (which I can only assume you must do) and the only reasonable response available to them then you’re full of pony.

 

[badgerx16]