Israel

[egg]

1 hour ago, rallyboy said:

Where does that figure come from?

The number keeps falling...1400, then 1200, then 1140. That said, whatever the number, Hamas are scum but the current Israeli behaviour won't see them off. 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Did they? what intelligence did they have?

so again, what Rules of Engagement (which you brought up) are Israel using? Same as the UK in Afghanistan or Iraq? Same as the USA in Syria? Same as Russia in Ukraine?

 

Seem to be - If it moves, shoot it; If it stands, bomb it. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, egg said:

Seem to be - If it moves, shoot it; If it stands, bomb it. 

Pretty standard then for most conflicts....

[badgerx16]

7 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Pretty standard then for most conflicts....

But for a hostage rescue operation ?

[aintforever]

40 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Did they? what intelligence did they have?

so again, what Rules of Engagement (which you brought up) are Israel using? Same as the UK in Afghanistan or Iraq? Same as the USA in Syria? Same as Russia in Ukraine?

 

Definitely more Russia than UK/USA from what I can see.

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

Definitely more Russia than UK/USA from what I can see.

What you can see?

🤣

That's that then

[rallyboy]

46 minutes ago, egg said:

The number keeps falling...1400, then 1200, then 1140. That said, whatever the number, Hamas are scum but the current Israeli behaviour won't see them off. 

The last figure I saw quoted in Israeli press was in the region of 700 innocent civilians, plus military.

Clearly still a horrific terrorist atrocity, but in this media war where we have already been told of various horrendous aspects that have since been disproved, the facts are getting lost - sometimes by accident, sometimes intentionally. 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

How smart are modern weapons? How many of these smart weapons - that I guess do not take down buildings and infrastructure - do Israel have?

Lloyd Austin saying that the US is talking to Israel about being more "surgical" and less brute force in their actions.

[inspectorfrost]

3 hours ago, whelk said:

Great that Saintsweb has all the smart brains that arrogantly declare they know Israel motives were never to eliminate Hamas. Given the amount of naive posts from clearly very impressionable people keen to read any old horseshit and post it up I am less sure.

You've written the above after having previously written comments like "Hamas started all this" when they didn't exist until decades after Israel were occupying Palestinian land, and then you've started talking about other people being naive, very impressionable and keen to read any old horseshit. Go back through the thread and you'll find that none of my last sentence is my opinion.

Knowing the historical context is vital, and there are a lot of people on this thread have read about the cycle of violence in Israel-Palestine for decades (that's not arrogance). Alicia Kearns/Ben Wallace's comments today are significant, they know full well Israel are committing war crimes in Palestine but the words used are being massaged. I believe I read recently that 80% of Gaza's 2.3 million people have been displaced, Hamas' (the ones responsible) membership is 20000-25000.

The two links below show why you need to be wary reading coverage about any conflict. See how the narrative has shifted over the 8 years.

 

 

 

[whelk]

9 minutes ago, inspectorfrost said:

You've written the above after having previously written comments like "Hamas started all this" when they didn't exist until decades after Israel were occupying Palestinian land, and then you've started talking about other people being naive, very impressionable and keen to read any old horseshit. Go back through the thread and you'll find that none of my last sentence is my opinion.

Knowing the historical context is vital, and there are a lot of people on this thread have read about the cycle of violence in Israel-Palestine for decades (that's not arrogance). Alicia Kearns/Ben Wallace's comments today are significant, they know full well Israel are committing war crimes in Palestine but the words used are being massaged. I believe I read recently that 80% of Gaza's 2.3 million people have been displaced, Hamas' (the ones responsible) membership is 20000-25000.

The two links below show why you need to be wary reading coverage about any conflict. See how the narrative has shifted over the 8 years.

 

 

 

Btw I wasn’t referring to you. Your posts have been a welcome contribution to the debate 

Acutely aware of the complexity of the situation although no expert. But the fact remains Hamas took it to next level akin to provoking a psychopath. Had they not carried out this attack then their civilians would not be dead, homeless and hungry. You can have the  debate on land rights and oppression etc but expect the vast majority of Palestinians preferred their plight prior to 7/10.

Edited 18 December, 2023 by whelk

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, whelk said:

...expect the vast majority of Palestinians preferred their plight prior to 7/10.

The better side of Hobson's Choice.

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

As I said way back on this thread (for which I was labelled an antisemite) being the victims of genocide in the past does not give you the right to do the same to others.

 

 

There you go again. 

You just can’t help yourself can you? 
 

The state of isreal is bombing Gaza, not Jews, and to conflate the two is anti semitic. How many more times do you need telling? 
 

Edited 18 December, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[inspectorfrost]

On 18/12/2023 at 16:49, whelk said:

Btw I wasn’t referring to you. Your posts have been a welcome contribution to the debate 

Acutely aware of the complexity of the situation although no expert. But the fact remains Hamas took it to next level akin to provoking a psychopath. Had they not carried out this attack then their civilians would not be dead, homeless and hungry. You can have the  debate on land rights and oppression etc but expect the vast majority of Palestinians preferred their plight prior to 7/10.

500 Palestinians have died this year alone in attacks like the below, which is approaching half of the number of Israelis that died on 7/10. The Palestinians were never going to do nothing whilst the west turns a blind eye. Hamas's attack wasn't the start of anything.

https://news.sky.com/story/settlers-armed-with-long-rifles-guns-knives-and-machetes-came-west-bank-palestinian-family-driven-from-their-home-13038093

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians had a hand in organising Hamas's attack, given it's sophistication/scale and the timing. The western governments try to cancel Russia over the Ukraine invasion, (just under 10000 civilians have died in 18 months), then a conflict escalates where a western ally invades/indiscriminately bombs Gaza (just over 21500 civilians have died in less than 3 months, the vast majority women and children).

 

Very good article by Frank Gardner summing things up

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-67845056

[egg]

13 minutes ago, inspectorfrost said:

500 Palestinians have died this year alone in attacks like the below, which is approaching half of the number of Israelis that died on 7/10. The Palestinians were never going to do nothing whilst the west turns a blind eye. Hamas's attack wasn't the start of anything.

https://news.sky.com/story/settlers-armed-with-long-rifles-guns-knives-and-machetes-came-west-bank-palestinian-family-driven-from-their-home-13038093

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians had a hand in organising Hamas's attack, given it's sophistication/scale and the timing. The western governments try to cancel Russia over the Ukraine invasion, (just under 10000 civilians have died in 18 months), then a conflict escalates where a western ally invades/indiscriminately bombs Gaza (just over 21500 civilians have died in less than 3 months, the vast majority women and children).

 

Very good article by Frank Gardner summing things up

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-67845056

I started this thread back in the summer when things were hotting up, and as Guterres says, this didn't happen in a vacuum. 

Not sure about the Russian link though, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. 

[badgerx16]

30 minutes ago, egg said:

I started this thread back in the summer when things were hotting up, and as Guterres says, this didn't happen in a vacuum. 

Not sure about the Russian link though, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. 

Perhaps Russia via it's proxy, Iran.

[egg]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

Perhaps Russia via it's proxy, Iran.

Of course. Iranian help and weapons is alway a proxy.  Western help and weapons is just business. 

[sadoldgit]

On 18/12/2023 at 16:40, inspectorfrost said:

You've written the above after having previously written comments like "Hamas started all this" when they didn't exist until decades after Israel were occupying Palestinian land, and then you've started talking about other people being naive, very impressionable and keen to read any old horseshit. Go back through the thread and you'll find that none of my last sentence is my opinion.

Knowing the historical context is vital, and there are a lot of people on this thread have read about the cycle of violence in Israel-Palestine for decades (that's not arrogance). Alicia Kearns/Ben Wallace's comments today are significant, they know full well Israel are committing war crimes in Palestine but the words used are being massaged. I believe I read recently that 80% of Gaza's 2.3 million people have been displaced, Hamas' (the ones responsible) membership is 20000-25000.

The two links below show why you need to be wary reading coverage about any conflict. See how the narrative has shifted over the 8 years.

 

 

 

Thank you for bringing some common sense to this thread. I don’t see how anyone with a shred of understanding of the history of this conflict could believe that this all started on 7th October or that Netanyahu his government and the IDF have a moral high ground over Hamas. Innocent civilians have been paying the price for nationalist ideologies on both sides of the conflict for far too long. The carnage visited on the people of Gaza is an obscenity and as abhorrent as the Hamas attack was on 7th October, how anyone can think that this is a “proportionate  response” or that the murderous actions of the IDF upon civilians are excused because of the Hamas attack is beyond basic humanity.

 

 

[inspectorfrost]

 

On 31/12/2023 at 18:10, sadoldgit said:

Thank you for bringing some common sense to this thread. I don’t see how anyone with a shred of understanding of the history of this conflict could believe that this all started on 7th October or that Netanyahu his government and the IDF have a moral high ground over Hamas. Innocent civilians have been paying the price for nationalist ideologies on both sides of the conflict for far too long. The carnage visited on the people of Gaza is an obscenity and as abhorrent as the Hamas attack was on 7th October, how anyone can think that this is a “proportionate  response” or that the murderous actions of the IDF upon civilians are excused because of the Hamas attack is beyond basic humanity.

 

 

I don't think a lot of people realise that the Israelis were aware of how dangerous Netanyahu's regime is long before October last year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67859177

 

Hopefully this Egyptian plan to resolve the conflict gains some traction, but it'd need a complete change of leadership on both sides for a start to achieve any lasting peace.

[sadoldgit]

13 hours ago, inspectorfrost said:

 

I don't think a lot of people realise that the Israelis were aware of how dangerous Netanyahu's regime is long before October last year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67859177

 

Hopefully this Egyptian plan to resolve the conflict gains some traction, but it'd need a complete change of leadership on both sides for a start to achieve any lasting peace.

I couldn’t agree more. Let’s hope that the major powers in the West finally put pressure on the Israeli government to stop the daily massacre of innocent civilians and, as you say start moves to find a long lasting peaceful solution. Again, as you say, this cannot happen whilst Netanyahu’s government and Hamas still hold sway.

The Israelis are talking about this operation lasting for months. Just how many more civilians do they have to kill or maim before it ends? It might satisfy Netanyahu’s need for revenge, but all it is doing now is storing up more long lasting divisions in the region, breeding more hatred and making a two state solution more problematic. Perhaps that has been his aim all along?

As for the three posters who thought my last post was funny, you have constantly made it clear that you think that Muslim lives are worth less than Jewish lives and yet again show yourselves up for the people you are.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

As for the three posters who thought my last post was funny, you have constantly made it clear that you think that Muslim lives are worth less than Jewish lives and yet again show yourselves up for the people you are

It is amusing reading your inane drivel about peace and thinking you offer any insight and wisdom - ‘this didn’t start on 7/10’ wow there was history before!

As for you equating it to favouring religions, I’m afraid that says more about your antisemitism which you reinforce  with every post you make on the subject. I know what sort of person you are

[Lighthouse]

6 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

you think that Muslim lives are worth less than Jewish lives

It's ironic really, that's actually the one thing that Hamas and the Israeli government can both agree on.

[whelk]

Anyone notice some missing detail? 

 

[Fan The Flames]

26 minutes ago, whelk said:

Anyone notice some missing detail? 

 

Shocking

[sadoldgit]

On 02/01/2024 at 16:24, Lighthouse said:

It's ironic really, that's actually the one thing that Hamas and the Israeli government can both agree on.

I’m sure that the 10,000 children murdered so far will appreciate that “irony”.

Can you imagine the outrage if Arab nations were making plans to remove Israeli citizens 2500 miles away?

https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-plans-expel-gaza-population-congo?amp
 

This is ethic cleansing, but perfectly ok to some because those being ethically cleansed are Muslims.

[whelk]

You really love to classify people. Most think of everyone as people yet you see them as Jews and Muslims. 

[farawaysaint]

It’d be nice if we had one thread which didn’t devolve into people jumping on SOG. He’s the new alpine, he just needs to make a comment to be dogpiled on and god knows why this forum even has mods because they damn sure don’t seem to moderate anything.

I get it, everyone sucks and we all hate each other, it’s boring now. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, farawaysaint said:

It’d be nice if we had one thread which didn’t devolve into people jumping on SOG. He’s the new alpine, he just needs to make a comment to be dogpiled on and god knows why this forum even has mods because they damn sure don’t seem to moderate anything.

I get it, everyone sucks and we all hate each other, it’s boring now. 

‘Just needs to make a comment’ lol - suggest you take a read back through this thread pal before you start sympathising. 

[Weston Super Saint]

3 hours ago, farawaysaint said:

It’d be nice if we had one thread which didn’t devolve into people jumping on SOG. He’s the new alpine, he just needs to make a comment to be dogpiled on and god knows why this forum even has mods because they damn sure don’t seem to moderate anything.

I get it, everyone sucks and we all hate each other, it’s boring now. 

He's the new (but definitely not better), Always  

[Fan The Flames]

5 hours ago, whelk said:

You really love to classify people. Most think of everyone as people yet you see them as Jews and Muslims. 

I don't know, but I would guess the people over there see themselves as Jews and Muslims.

[Lighthouse]

4 hours ago, farawaysaint said:

It’d be nice if we had one thread which didn’t devolve into people jumping on SOG. He’s the new alpine, he just needs to make a comment to be dogpiled on and god knows why this forum even has mods because they damn sure don’t seem to moderate anything.

I get it, everyone sucks and we all hate each other, it’s boring now. 

We primarily moderate the main board because it’s a Saints football forum and 95% of users only use that particular sub-forum to discuss Saints. As far as off topic forums go, unless it starts getting properly vitriolic, hateful we generally just let it play out. The Lounge is pretty much 95% of the trouble (there are currently 106 total reported posts) from 5% of the posters/content. To put it bluntly, we’ve all got lives and none of us can be bothered to spend them moderating this crap. The alternative is we just get rid of The Lounge, which by definition anyone reading this post doesn’t want.

As for SOG, he is also like alpine in that he largely brings it on himself. A few weeks ago I did lock this thread because everyone needed a time out. He immediately went on the ‘small things which annoy you’ thread (which generally seems to self-maintain a light hearted humour) and posted:

"People who assume that you lie and make things up on an anonymous forum just because they disagree with you. Not everybody is a liar or on the wind up"
 

 If you’re that desperate for an argument and a petulant reaction, don’t come crying to me when you get one.

[Weston Super Saint]

24 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I don't know, but I would guess the people over there see themselves as Jews and Muslims.

Do they really identify as their "religion" before they identify as humans / people?

If so, no wonder the region is so fucked.

[whelk]

42 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I don't know, but I would guess the people over there see themselves as Jews and Muslims.

Brilliant. 

[Fan The Flames]

12 minutes ago, whelk said:

Brilliant. 

Thank you

[Fan The Flames]

31 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Do they really identify as their "religion" before they identify as humans / people?

If so, no wonder the region is so fucked.

Do people identify as people, don't we identify by country, region, gender, social tribe etc etc

I worked for a Jehovah's Witnesses company for a while, they certainly Identified as JWs first.

Talking how fucked the region is, that a memorial service for an Iranian military officer would attract hundreds of members of the public.

[hypochondriac]

5 hours ago, farawaysaint said:

It’d be nice if we had one thread which didn’t devolve into people jumping on SOG. He’s the new alpine, he just needs to make a comment to be dogpiled on and god knows why this forum even has mods because they damn sure don’t seem to moderate anything.

I get it, everyone sucks and we all hate each other, it’s boring now. 

Worth pointing out I ignored soggy and all his posts for over a year. He continued to refer and reply to me the entire time... 

[badgerx16]

23 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

 

Talking how fucked the region is, that a memorial service for an Iranian military officer would attract hundreds of members of the public.

Who get blown to pieces by a different sect of Muslims.

[whelk]

12 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Who get blown to pieces by a different sect of Muslims.

What? Muslims aren’t all the same? That must be news to some on here who only don’t care about Muslim lives

[Turkish]

7 hours ago, farawaysaint said:

It’d be nice if we had one thread which didn’t devolve into people jumping on SOG. He’s the new alpine, he just needs to make a comment to be dogpiled on and god knows why this forum even has mods because they damn sure don’t seem to moderate anything.

I get it, everyone sucks and we all hate each other, it’s boring now. 

Alpine was very amusing and came out with some classics, the one where he posted a load of shit and tried to make out he'd gone downstairs and his son had logged in and posted stuff on his account then logged out again was hilarious. SOG deserves everything he gets if it weren't for the fact that he posts the same shit across several other forums with the same preachy, superior pious tone which garners similar responses from other posters then you might think his character on here is a wind up, sadly and worryingly it appears that he actually believes a lot of what he spouts.

[inspectorfrost]

 

On 04/01/2024 at 10:36, sadoldgit said:

I’m sure that the 10,000 children murdered so far will appreciate that “irony”.

Can you imagine the outrage if Arab nations were making plans to remove Israeli citizens 2500 miles away?

https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-plans-expel-gaza-population-congo?amp
 

This is ethic cleansing, but perfectly ok to some because those being ethically cleansed are Muslims.

To address the story in the above link itself, it was widely reported including in the I newspaper.

https://www.state.gov/rejection-of-irresponsible-statements-on-resettlement-of-palestinians-outside-of-gaza/

"Irresponsible statements" is one way of putting it, seem to remember there an ICC arrest warrant issued for Putin earlier this year for doing similar in Ukraine

 

 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

On 04/01/2024 at 10:36, sadoldgit said:

This is ethic cleansing, but perfectly ok to some because those being ethically cleansed are Muslims.

Bless. There's those true colours once again

[Tamesaint]

38 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Bless. There's those true colours once again

It must be great being Weston. He never makes a typo and has a full time job correcting peoplr who do. 

[trousers]

3 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

It must be great being Weston. He never makes a typo and has a full time job correcting peoplr who do. 

*People

[Tamesaint]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

*People

I left it on purpose for him. You are spoiling his fun. 😁😏😏

[Weston Super Saint]

11 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

It must be great being Weston. He never makes a typo and has a full time job correcting peoplr who do. 

It's not a typo.  There is nothing wrong with the spelling.  Presumably he chose it deliberately.

[badgerx16]

The only way is ethics.

[benjii]

Anyone seen that Command and Control centre that's definitely under the hospital, yet?

[whelk]

15 minutes ago, benjii said:

Anyone seen that Command and Control centre that's definitely under the hospital, yet?

Reports of 8000 Hamas killed so command pretty non existent in north Gaza. Not bad out of 20000 considering IDF have only been targeting babies.

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, whelk said:

Reports of 8000 Hamas killed so command pretty non existent in north Gaza. Not bad out of 20000 considering IDF have only been targeting babies.

Another stupid comment Whelk. I used to think you weren’t as bad as the other small group on here who are guaranteed to make fatuous comments. Has anybody actually said that they are deliberately just killing babies? No of course not. It is very clear that there are no constraints by the IDF on killing as many as possible, be they Hamas,  innocent civilians or even their own. I know that you believe that every Palestinian is complicit, therefore fair game, but that just makes you as ignorant and bigoted as everyone else who thinks that lives are worth less than others depending on where they are born, what religion they follow or what their skin colour is.

I used to believe that you posted like this on the wind up, but am now of the opinion that you actually think that the tactics of the IDF over the last 3 months are perfectly acceptable. Did you cheer when the IDF sniper took out a little old lady on her way to fetch some water?

[egg]

4 hours ago, whelk said:

Reports of 8000 Hamas killed so command pretty non existent in north Gaza. Not bad out of 20000 considering IDF have only been targeting babies.

Behave. They've been deliberately targeting civilians at worst, and inconsiderate of collateral damage at best. Taking out buildings of 20+ people to kill 1 bloke who probably went to a Hamas meetings isn't proportionate on any sensible assessment. 

I'll take an estimate of 8,000 plus Hamas dead with a massive pinch of salt. I'm still waiting to see any evidence of a Hamas command and control centres under hospitals. 

[Turkish]

5 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

The only way is ethics.

This is no time for a new reality TV show Badger