AlexLaw76 Posted 16 December, 2023 Share Posted 16 December, 2023 3 hours ago, sadoldgit said: Wrong twice? The IDF are killing their own people and have done since 7th October. How is that in any way shape or form taking care in who they target? It gets worse, the hostages were carrying white flags when they were shot, but the IDF still have the moral high ground eh? Wait to you realise how many of their own people Hamas (and other Islamic lunatics) kill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 December, 2023 Share Posted 16 December, 2023 (edited) Easy to mistake them for Hamas terrorists through a snipers telescopic sight I guess? https://www.osvnews.com/2023/12/16/israeli-sniper-kills-two-christians-in-gaza-latin-patriarchate-says/amp/ And we all know how difficult it is to drive a bulldozer without running over people. https://maktoobmedia.com/world/israel-bulldozes-buries-alive-dozens-at-gaza-hospital/ Edited 16 December, 2023 by sadoldgit Added text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 16 December, 2023 Share Posted 16 December, 2023 56 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: . https://maktoobmedia.com/world/israel-bulldozes-buries-alive-dozens-at-gaza-hospital/ Oh good. A piece from "Maktoob". Commonly referred to as a rabid Islamist website with a long history of peddling disinformation - aka "making shit up". Little wonder you've been attracted to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspectorfrost Posted 17 December, 2023 Share Posted 17 December, 2023 On 13/12/2023 at 17:34, whelk said: It is interesting why so many feel the narrative is pro-Israel and plight of Palestinians neglected. Certainly not my experience of the media and can see on this thread, public marches where most sympathies lie. So by ‘they’ you mean BBC and Sky? People keep mentioning the number comparison which isn’t hugely relevant - it isn’t about matching but neutralising the enemy’s capability. Motive is though and you mention being gaslit. Stories of such sadistic barbarism against innocents resonate and important to understand what vile scum we are dealing with not some poor oppressed, ‘colonised’ victims. Something that seemed instantly forgotten by Harvard students and countless others. I think you do get personalisation of Palestinians stories but agree there may be fatigue from seeing same pictures but that is human nature I’m afraid. And it's the barbaric attacks by Hamas a while ago that got all the news coverage where you'd struggle to find much on the (government supported) Israeli settler attacks on Palestinians that took place beforehand. Practically every non-UK born person I've met would you tell the idea the BBC etc. is 'independent from government' is absurd. The news coverage is based on political/financial interest, not on the premise of the value of human life. News is merely an artificial construction designed to represent reality. As soon as you start getting the 'good guy, bad guy' narrative it's an indicator it's being controlled, the world is never that simple. I've seen numerous stories like the below happening in Ukraine where words like "atrocity" and "crimes against humanity" were used. The difference in reporting is subtle but effective. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67736723 The problem Israel has is that the world is way too multi-cultural now and communications are far too effective so more of their army's actions are being called out. There are people in senior political positions in this country whose own family are directly witnessing what the IDF are doing. There's a report that Israel's finance minister recently claimed that there are 2 million Nazis in the West Bank. History would suggest that's a rather chilling and disturbing statement. Hamas may be barbaric/vile scum etc. etc. but you may want to look behind you. . . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 Hamas took a significant early lead on the war crimes scoreboard, but Israel have come back strongly. We're heading for extra time, though with every new atrocity, the inhumane momentum now appears to be with the Israeli government. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said: There has been a lot of discussion about whether the actions of the IDF constitutes genocide in Gaza. Whether it technically is or isn’t genocide, there can be no dispute about the ethnic cleansing/domicide description. Ben Wallace’s description of this being a “killing rage” also nails it. This is not and has never been an operation just to take out Hamas. It is a revenge attack designed to flatten Gaza and to kill and displace as many Palestinians as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 It's clearly never just been an operation to just take out Hamas from day one, they are just handing out brutal collective punishment which fits with how they have acted in the past. I see Cameron is now calling for a ceasefire, does that mean he will be joining the next 'Hate March'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 Great that Saintsweb has all the smart brains that arrogantly declare they know Israel motives were never to eliminate Hamas. Given the amount of naive posts from clearly very impressionable people keen to read any old horseshit and post it up I am less sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 I wonder if Hamas have any regret about 7/10 now seeing their civilians getting predictably fucked? Israelis are ruthless bastards in conflicts as seen by shooting hostages waving white flags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 37 minutes ago, whelk said: Great that Saintsweb has all the smart brains that arrogantly declare they know Israel motives were never to eliminate Hamas. Given the amount of naive posts from clearly very impressionable people keen to read any old horseshit and post it up I am less sure. I think the naive ones are those who believed Israel was acting purely in self defence and trying to minimise civilian casualties. Still think it's a good idea to light Wembley up in Israel's colours? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 If only there was some way Hamas could have not started the whole thing by murdering 1400 innocent civilians in an unprovoked terrorist atrocity. It’s not their fault, they couldn’t possibly have predicted Israel would react like this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 10 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: If only there was some way Hamas could have not started the whole thing by murdering 1400 innocent civilians in an unprovoked terrorist atrocity. It’s not their fault, they couldn’t possibly have predicted Israel would react like this. Of course they knew how Israel would respond, we all did. That doesn't mean it is a good idea to support/encourage it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 15 minutes ago, aintforever said: I think the naive ones are those who believed Israel was acting purely in self defence and trying to minimise civilian casualties. Still think it's a good idea to light Wembley up in Israel's colours? Self defence for an Israel means fucking Hamas and not overly caring about civilian casualties. Anyone who thought different is naive. Don’t know what point you are making about Wembley colours? I don’t care for the tokenism personally but has been done previously to show solidarity with deaths from disasters, terrorism etc. Whereas of course the Jews sort of deserved it yeah so who is sad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 11 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: If only there was some way Hamas could have not started the whole thing by murdering 1400 innocent civilians in an unprovoked terrorist atrocity. It’s not their fault, they couldn’t possibly have predicted Israel would react like this. Exactly - I posted on here declaring Israel will annihilate them for this. That isn’t the same as supporting what they are doing but you need to be a bit dim thinking there was going to be any other outcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 7 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: If only there was some way Hamas could have not started the whole thing by murdering 1400 innocent civilians in an unprovoked terrorist atrocity. It’s not their fault, they couldn’t possibly have predicted Israel would react like this. If only the Israelis had not occupied Palestinian territory in the West Bank. If only both sides have not been chipping away at each other for 70 years. By pretending that this is just a result of one attack in October is what I expect of some of the some of the less bright posters. As I said way back on this thread (for which I was labelled an antisemite) being the victims of genocide in the past does not give you the right to do the same to others. If only it was as simple as you try and pretend it is. Fortunately more and more people are seeing that the response has gone way beyond anything that could be described as proportionate and Netanyahu and his cronies are no better than Hamas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 3 minutes ago, aintforever said: Of course they knew how Israel would respond, we all did. That doesn't mean it is a good idea to support/encourage it. Literally nobody I’ve seen is supporting or encouraging this. It’s a war of two religions, both convinced they have a divine right to the same peace of land, who are prepared to fight and die for it. The whole thing is just a tragic mess but for Hamas to be telling the world’s media, “oh please, won’t someone think of the children!” After what they did is just laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 18 December, 2023 Author Share Posted 18 December, 2023 18 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: If only there was some way Hamas could have not started the whole thing by murdering 1400 innocent civilians in an unprovoked terrorist atrocity. It’s not their fault, they couldn’t possibly have predicted Israel would react like this. 7/10 was the reason Israel needed to justify to itself what it has done/is doing, but it wasn't the start of things. Everyone expected a response, but I'm not sure anyone expected the scale of the destruction that we've seen. Regardless, the point is that a) there's no self defence, that's bollox, and b) Hamas as an entity won't be defeated, and nor will their ideology. Israel know that. What's also noticeable is how those who kept saying that Israel would happily live alongside the Palestinians have kept quiet after the Israeli's latest sprees in the west bank, and their objection to the creation of a Palestinian state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 8 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: If only the Israelis had not occupied Palestinian territory in the West Bank. If only both sides have not been chipping away at each other for 70 years. By pretending that this is just a result of one attack in October is what I expect of some of the some of the less bright posters. As I said way back on this thread (for which I was labelled an antisemite) being the victims of genocide in the past does not give you the right to do the same to others. If only it was as simple as you try and pretend it is. Fortunately more and more people are seeing that the response has gone way beyond anything that could be described as proportionate and Netanyahu and his cronies are no better than Hamas. Who decides what is proportionate? The USA? Iran? genuine question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, egg said: 7/10 was the reason Israel needed to justify to itself what it has done/is doing, but it wasn't the start of things. Everyone expected a response, but I'm not sure anyone expected the scale of the destruction that we've seen. Regardless, the point is that a) there's no self defence, that's bollox, and b) Hamas as an entity won't be defeated, and nor will their ideology. Israel know that. What's also noticeable is how those who kept saying that Israel would happily live alongside the Palestinians have kept quiet after the Israeli's latest sprees in the west bank, and their objection to the creation of a Palestinian state. Only people in the West with their (our) self-righteous rules based system....the Middle East could easily see a bloody tear up (some want it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 30 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: murdering 1400 innocent civilians Where does that figure come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: Who decides what is proportionate? The USA? Iran? genuine question... When US public opinion, directed by the mass media, determines ' enough is enough'. After all, their tax dollars are feeding the IDF need for weapons and ammunition. Edited 18 December, 2023 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 Just now, badgerx16 said: When US public opinion, directed by the mass media, determines ' enough is enough'. exactly right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: exactly right. I often am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: After all, their tax dollars are feeding the IDF need for weapons and ammunition. US Tax Dollars feed the US Empire, which probably would like to see the end of Hamas and its ilk (as would other major players in the ME) Edited 18 December, 2023 by AlexLaw76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 45 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: If only the Israelis had not occupied Palestinian territory in the West Bank. If only both sides have not been chipping away at each other for 70 years. By pretending that this is just a result of one attack in October is what I expect of some of the some of the less bright posters. As I said way back on this thread (for which I was labelled an antisemite) being the victims of genocide in the past does not give you the right to do the same to others. If only it was as simple as you try and pretend it is. Fortunately more and more people are seeing that the response has gone way beyond anything that could be described as proportionate and Netanyahu and his cronies are no better than Hamas. Surprised you haven’t come to conclusion that 7/10 attacks didn’t happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 6 minutes ago, whelk said: Surprised you haven’t come to conclusion that 7/10 attacks didn’t happen? Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, reckons they were false flag actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 hour ago, Lighthouse said: Literally nobody I’ve seen is supporting or encouraging this. Apart from the UK government and those calling for Wembley to be lit up in Israel's colours while they murder innocent civilians of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 12 minutes ago, aintforever said: Apart from the UK government and those calling for Wembley to be lit up in Israel's colours while they murder innocent civilians of course. did you believe non combatants would not (sadly) die in this? You have seen war news over the last 25 years, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said: did you believe non combatants would not (sadly) die in this? You have seen war news over the last 25 years, right? You do understand that some people see deliberate policy rather than "collateral damage", right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 15 minutes ago, aintforever said: Apart from the UK government and those calling for Wembley to be lit up in Israel's colours while they murder innocent civilians of course. You seem a little obsessed with Wembley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 hour ago, rallyboy said: Where does that figure come from? Correction, it has apparently been revised to 1,200, not that that makes much difference to the actual point being discussed. 14 minutes ago, aintforever said: Apart from the UK government and those calling for Wembley to be lit up in Israel's colours while they murder innocent civilians of course. Except that’s quite obviously not what’s happening, that England game was about three days after the 7/10 attacks and before anything of note had happened in Gaza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, badgerx16 said: You do understand that some people see deliberate policy rather than "collateral damage", right ? Seemingly not particularly efficient if deliberate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, badgerx16 said: You do understand that some people see deliberate policy rather than "collateral damage", right ? Havent seen many boasts from Hamas about doing this again anytime soon, have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said: Seemingly not particularly efficient if deliberate. Probably over 20 thousand dead in Gaza, hardly accidental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, whelk said: Havent seen many boasts from Hamas about doing this again anytime soon, have you? How is Western public opinion going ? Palestinians or IDF ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, badgerx16 said: Probably over 20 thousand dead in Gaza, hardly accidental. Considering how densely populated the area is, amazed it is that low. Edited 18 December, 2023 by AlexLaw76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 Just now, badgerx16 said: How is Western public opinion going ? Palestinians or IDF ? Not going to ask about Hamas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, badgerx16 said: How is Western public opinion going ? Palestinians or IDF ? All Western Governments want (and need) is for this to be contained with the current borders. Everything else is just playing to the gallery, like 'call me Dave' and his 'sustainable cease fire' comment. As said, many of the major players in the world and ME would probably prefer organisations like Hamas (and their ilk) to be gone/severely degraded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, badgerx16 said: How is Western public opinion going ? Palestinians or IDF ? If you based everything on public opinion you’d be pretty weak. Hey we’d even be stupid enough to leave the EU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 Just now, AlexLaw76 said: Considering how densely populated the area is, amazed it that low. Considering how "smart" modern weapons are claimed to be, and how careful the IDF claim their Rules of Engagement are, I don't think it's low at all. What do you think the ratio of dead Hamas fighters to dead non-combatants is ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: Correction, it has apparently been revised to 1,200, not that that makes much difference to the actual point being discussed. Except that’s quite obviously not what’s happening, that England game was about three days after the 7/10 attacks and before anything of note had happened in Gaza. The Wembley thing was just symbolic, the UK government has supported Israel's reaction through all of this. Israel had killed plenty of civilians and showed their intent way before the England game on the 13th, they are not doing anything seriously different now to what they were doing then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, whelk said: If you based everything on public opinion you’d be pretty weak. Hey we’d even be stupid enough to leave the EU Yep, who'd be THAT stupid ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: Considering how "smart" modern weapons are claimed to be, and how careful the IDF claim their Rules of Engagement are, I don't think it's low at all. What do you think the ratio of dead Hamas fighters to dead non-combatants is ? How smart are modern weapons? How many of these smart weapons - that I guess do not take down buildings and infrastructure - do Israel have? Rules of Engagement. What rules of Engagement are Israel using? Edited 18 December, 2023 by AlexLaw76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 4 minutes ago, whelk said: Not going to ask about Hamas? I am not the Iranian Government or the Houthi in Yemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 Just now, AlexLaw76 said: Rules of Engagement. What rules of Engagement are Israel using? The ones they failed to follow when shooting those 3 hostages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 Just now, badgerx16 said: The ones they failed to follow when shooting those 3 hostages. Did they? what intelligence did they have? so again, what Rules of Engagement (which you brought up) are Israel using? Same as the UK in Afghanistan or Iraq? Same as the USA in Syria? Same as Russia in Ukraine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: How smart are modern weapons? Ultimately they are only as 'smart' as the person pulling the trigger of flipping the switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said: Did they? what intelligence did they have? The IDF said so: ( From the BBC ) - Israeli officials have admitted that killing the three men who were holding a white flag was a breach of "rules of engagement". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 18 December, 2023 Share Posted 18 December, 2023 1 minute ago, badgerx16 said: The IDF said so: ( From the BBC ) - Israeli officials have admitted that killing the three men who were holding a white flag was a breach of "rules of engagement". The people who did this will likely get the same treatment as Marine A, no doubt. Throw a bit of mental health in and that will be that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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